Rosie Skene:

Hello, and welcome to episode 14 of Triumph Beyond Trauma.

I am thrilled that you are here and I have a very special episode for you today.

It's been busy here at tactical yoga Australia. Last week,

I've participated in a two day workshop for first responders that have retired or are transitioning out of service. It was fantastic. And I'll be talking a lot more, , on this program hosted by, beyond the badge in a few weeks.

Of course, like I mentioned last week, I have launched in two weeks.

So from the 18th to the 25th, Of June doors will be open to the first responder mental wellness method.

It is my wholly online program for first responders, veterans, and frontline workers to

embrace and improve mental wellness, through a number of strategies,

including breath, work, mindfulness and yoga. The beauty of this program is that it is so accessible.

So you can do it all in your own time in any location, which is so

important to me because I wanted to support our wonderful country

cousins, where services and facilities are not always readily available.

The program's also completely confidential. There's no reporting

back to any insurers or anything like that.

And if, , this is something that you would like to be involved in,

you can join the wait list at tacticalyogaaustralia.com/waitlist.

In addition to launch week, I have a three-day tactical mind, body mastery.

So if you want to dip your toes in for free and see what I'm about. , before joining.

The full program, you can absolutely come along and join me for that.

To sign up and get the joining information and links.

Just head over to tacticalyogaaustralia.com/mindbody. And I'll send you everything you need to join.

Those links , will be in the show notes.

Now my guest this week is Andy Fermo when the dust settled after 10 years of

military service and two active tours of duty with the Australian special forces.

Surviving the impact of an improvised, explosive device and near death scenarios.

Andy found himself in a dark hole. Uh, seeking purpose and carrying baggage that affected everyday life.

Diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. Over the years,

he sought to create purpose and meaning based on a work, a lifestyle

that is designed around being positive and mindful of his condition.

This isn't always the case and it's easy to quickly derail.

And at Christmas 2018, a combination of unforeseen circumstances and events.

saw his mental health deteriorate.

It was at this low point whilst camping and close to being homeless.

The idea of invisible injuries was born. Early in his journey to recovery. Andy

learn how to navigate and seek out support services. Now is the time to enact

his self care plan, accessing support systems and doing the work to get back

on his feet. Now Andy shares his lived experience. And those of his peers, so

he could bet it. The mental health. And wellbeing of veterans, first responders

and their immediate support experiencing PTSD. Through hosting the invisible

injuries, podcast, holistic self care ideas. Connecting support services to the user

and creating an all-in-one online resource. Andy has guested on many podcasts

and public speaking events. Also being published in stories of hope. . And is an

active member of the community volunteering his time with numerous ex services

organizations. Andy is wonderful and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with him.

Of course with most of the episodes on Triumph Beyond Trauma we will be discussing

content that may be uncomfortable to listen to. So this one comes with a strong content warning.

As we do discuss Andy's deployments to Afghanistan.

Like I said, I really enjoyed this conversation with Andy and I hope that you do too.

Please check out all the wonderful things that he's up to afterwards with his links being in the show notes.

Intro:

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma,
the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a
yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former
soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police
officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in
the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter future.
Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly
reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Welcome to the podcast, Andy. I'm so grateful that you could
join me today.

Andy Fermo:

Oh, thanks for having me as a
guest, , Rosie. And I appreciate the opportunity to, to come on as a, and have
a chat with you.

[00:01:09]

Rosie Skene:

You're so welcome. I've actually
wanted to get you on for a while, so I'm thrilled that you're here. , usually I
get my guests to tell us a little bit about their experience.

I know that you're in Australian Defence Force, so would you
like to talk about what led you in that direction?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, great question. What led me
in that direction is that, , look, uh, when I finished school, I,, really
didn't have the best idea about what I wanted to do. I was, like, in a bit of
party mode and not really focused.

On, on education, , at the time and, , I'd done cadets, right.
But I didn't want to conform to the rules at that sort of time. Because I was
sort of partying quite a lot and, , living that sort of lifestyle. And it got
to a point there where I was, I was like sort of having too much fun, let's
say, without getting into too much detail.

And, there was kind of like a, , it was a bit of. Similar to
like an intervention, so to speak, because I was kind of going down a path
that, , I was going down a path that probably isn't sustainable or good, , for,
for the long run. So I had to. I had to make a choice and, , my brother had
joined the military and he joined full time.

He was part time and , he's my younger brother and I'd , I'd
inspired him to join, you know what I mean? So I kind of did reversed. , but
when I signed up, I've been trying a few different things, uh, and, you know, I
thought, , from an Asian background, my oldies were like, I'll either become an
engineer or a bloody dentist or a doctor or something like that.

And I'm like, , I'm none of those, I'm none of those types of
people. Right. And so I thought, well, If I can have some sort of skill and I
wanted to join the military, I signed up as a choco or a reservist just to dip
my foot in the water. And I signed up for it. So I'm like, Oh, please, the
oldies, I'm going to join the military.

I'll do some cool stuff. , but I'm also going to, uh, get this
skill. as a geek is what the, the nickname for the trade. And when I got to
Kapooka and, , my head sort of come right. And, and, you know, I really
focused, I really liked. The lifestyle, even though they beasted us quite a
lot.

, and there's a process of moving you from being a civilian
into a, um, into a, a military or a first responder person change, transforming
you to be in the system. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

yeah.

Andy Fermo:

Um, I, I really enjoyed that
process. And then as I gained more confidence , and, , our teammates, we, we
formed bonds and, uh, learned some really cool stuff.

That's what I had joined, , that was inspiring me for the
military in the first place. So I actually liked that routine and I was ready
to be able to, , have that sort of discipline , and, um, I suppose a set, ,
schedule and all those sort of things, And so I joined up as a full time.

I was there and instead of being a choco, I was like, what,
it's just actually me making my own decisions and I'm not going to , do it for
anyone else or make to sort of appease anyone. I go, well, look, I'm, I'm in
now and, and this is going to be my path. And, I signed up. Um, still within
signals core, but then I,, I signed up and said to the, , to the instructor,
one of our instructors, our section leader.

And he goes, Oh, well, you know, you want to change in. Do you
know what job do you want to do? I said, look, I really, I really like, I want
to be able to shoot guns, but, maybe infantry is not for me. I still want to
learn the trade. I want to do some, I want a good mix.

And he goes,

Oh, why don't you become the bear?

And I said, what's a bear? And he goes, Oh, well, it's, it's
called actually electronic warfare. You get it, you get a, , You get a top
secret clearance and I went, Oh, that's me. You know, so you get the top secret
clearance. It's like being a spy and all this sort of stuff, all these
buzzwords. And now I was sold and I didn't even really know what the job was
until I'd done some research on it.

But I actually liked that side of things anyway. , I had an
electronics, , background. , but with audio, but I, I like the sneaky peaky
stuff. So I like that sort of. A bit of tech, but also just being on my hands
on bloke as well. So that sort of rounded off my interests in, in being able to
join.

So that was me , in the, into the force, you know?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Right. That's cool. I like
that little sneaky, peeky. So when you finished up at Kapooka and then where is
your training?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, it's Wagga Wagga. Yeah.

Well. Yes. Yeah. And then so the, the, the, the recruit
trainings at Wagga,

but then for my particular role, they send you to, um, the
school of SIGs, which is in Melbourne.

Rosie Skene:

Oh, Melbourne. Right. And then,

Andy Fermo:

and so by, by that time that they
have concurrent thing going on, I had to switch over, so all that paperwork,
but also, um, all your stuff for you, for your vetting and your clearance. It's
starting to go through. So that process at the, at that time, , because of the
political landscape and what was going on took a bit longer than, and what was,
um, how long did it usually take, you know?

So, um, it took, , I think 12 months before we could get the
clearances is to go through. So we do it did our training in Melbourne, did the
basic thing to be, , the base employment signal. So this is not even in our
trade. Now, how do I operate a radio and do that basic stuff? And then, um, And
then they sent shipped us up to Kabbalah, which is a place in Queensland, just
north of Toowoomba.

So it's inland and that's where that base is. And it's tri
service where we learned our skills, but there's two components to it. There's
like a unclassified section where you learn the basics , and then there's the
classified when you, you know, once you get clearance comes through. So got a
couple of goalposts , and, uh, checked checks to go through checkpoints before,
, even finishing the trade.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I know it
can be a bit of an arduous process, um, getting to your trade. My husband was
in defense and my sister as well. And, and I know that their training was
actually quite a long time before they even get to do the role. So did you find
it frustrating that it takes so long or were you happy just with the process as
it was going along?

Andy Fermo:

Look, I think it's just the, the,
the hurry up and wait once you've finished the other, , once you're finishing,
, the other components of what we'd finished the unclassified phase, and then
they had to send us home for a month while we was finishing up the, the waiting
for the vetting to go through.

So that's the thing, but I'm not going to complain. So I was
from Perth , and, you know, I was in Queensland. So that was really one of the
first opportunities to go home for any sort of lengthy point in time since
enlisting. And then that was good to be able to go in, um, and be able to catch
up with everyone and sort of see how much.

I suppose I, I had growth, , from the sphere that I was in, , I
love my mates and I think the thing about all of us at that time when we talk
about it in hindsight now is, , we were great for each other, but we were also
a little bit destructive in terms of our personalities. So, um, at that, , when
I came home after that.

First amount. I was like, okay, actually, no, this is where my
priorities and then that frustration sort of soon was like went, and then, , I
went back and we were ready to do the, , the classified phase, , which was
great.

Rosie Skene:

And how old were you at this time
when you joined?

Andy Fermo:

I was in, I was in my early
twenties, so I, I was, I could have joined up from when I was 17. Um, but I
just, I, I just didn't have, , to be honest with you, if I look at it on
hindsight now, I just probably was, I didn't have the emotional maturity , to
be going into an organization like that.

But once I did, and I was in my early twenties, it was like,
yeah, hammer and tongs. I knew what I wanted, I knew what I didn't want more,
more so. And so I've gravitated towards doing that, , single man's game. Uh,
and, and I love the lifestyle. Yeah, it was, it was great job and the friends
and all that.

Rosie Skene:

It is good for the single man.
Yeah. Yes,

Andy Fermo:

it is. Especially in the

Rosie Skene:

age group. So you were just north
of Toowoomba. Um, and how long were you in that role for?

Andy Fermo:

Um, I was, , for four years. So
the, the training school for, for EW is tri service, but once you actually
graduate the, um, the field role for in the, the army role is, is based, and
the tactical army role is based.

In, and on the same base in Kabbalah. So I did, I got posted to
their man pack role. That's where I'd wanted. That's where, you know, when I
earlier in our conversation said, well, you know, man pack going bush, carrying
the heavy stuff , and shooting guns. That's, that's where the capability was
for what floated my boat, because they also had, , started up some new, ,
collaborative efforts, , With, , some of the infantry battalions in particular,
like down in Sydney, where we were jumping out of, , started doing the training
, for jumping out of the planes , and all the other sort of fun stuff and
working with them.

So, and that was the first time that that sort of capability
that restart that started building up that top of what they call it a man pack
capability where we would be. Attached to a main body. So like the infantry, so
to speak, and they'd have a specialist team come in as an attachment, and then
we would be under their command, but we'd still have a, , a side, um,
subordinate to, , another master, so to speak.

So it was, it was really good.

Rosie Skene:

So for those of us who don't,
aren't fully aware of all the little nooks and crannies of the Defence Force,
what, what did you do, , in that job role?

Andy Fermo:

Yep. Great. So, uh, if I could
think about that, uh, in, in, uh, first responder police speak, right. Uh, what
it was, was it, was it.

Intelligence gathering or signals intelligence gathering. So
what we would do was intercept enemy communications, right? And, , we would
make a picture , of the audio sort of landscape, and then we'd have specialist
gear to be able to triangulate where they were. And then, and then go in. So
let's just say now, and this is a, I'm just trying to have it so that people
might have point of reference of what it might be is, you know, that, that
show, what's the one where they, they're chasing the cops in Melbourne and they
got the, , the, all the people that it's, it's a, it's a show.

I've had a mental blank anyway, so they would, they have a
whole bunch of assets that come in and they have all these pretend escapes go
out and then so they'll have their devices, you know, and then they'll chase
them down. They'll triangulate. Yeah, I know, you know, so, yeah, that would be
a very similar thing now, , without getting into too much, uh, operational
security, , details, but that was what it was.

Let's try getting a tactical, a tactical, um. Soundscape, but
like, you know, not soundscape. No, that's the DJ coming out of me, , a
tactical intelligence picture. And then we'd offer it to hire for them to be
able to make a best decision to then move the chess pieces on the board. That's
what the job was.

Rosie Skene:

Thanks for explaining that.
That's good. That helps us. , understand what you're up to. And it's like, it
does sound like a bit of fun.

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, it was, it was pretty fun.
It was like, you know, a bit of sneaky peaky and you got to do some stuff. So I
got to work. You know, you get to work with the, , the recon and the snipers
and some of the other, other agencies.

So in, in, in say, uh, first responder speak, uh, from, you
know, from the cops, you'd be probably, you know, doing, doing some groundwork
on something that's happening, then you offer it up to, , get a little bit of
an intelligence picture. Push it up to hire like a core organization, like A
TRG or something like that, where they might be coming into banging the doors
and then you, then you'll go in , and then do the job.

So that's similar to what we were doing, but in a military
role.

Rosie Skene:

So did you stay in that role or
did you move on , and find other cool stuff to do?

Andy Fermo:

No. The cool stuff. Yeah, the, it
was all about the cool stuff and what was going on. So at that point in time,
we, um. Um, we, we, you know, there was the Iraq and sort of was just waning as
well.

You had a few peacekeeping roles as well, like the Solomon
islands. Um, there was a team or that was going on and then, , and then
Afghanistan as well, it sort of started to, was about to kick off. So it was
quite a busy. , operational landscape and I got posted to, I was for RAR
commando then, which is now two commando and they were rolled in the special
forces role.

So I went from the, that really cool sort of stuff, jumping out
of the planes with, , one of the infantry battalions at the time to then going
down there and they expanded the role because it was special force. I'm like,
Ooh, this is really cool. We were down there for the, , for the Melbourne
Commonwealth games, and then we were working interagency as well.

So there was a lot of stuff, , all this new stuff that was
coming to me, , talking about, uh, not just a tactical, but a big strategic
picture. You've got a big event, domestic counter terrorism, you had the, ,
working with the, , the first responder, , communities as well as doing the,
the military role.

That was. Something that just blew my mind away. And then when
we were doing our cool stuff, you know, I'd see the guys jumping out, the boys
would be flying in on the choppers and we were doing what they call full
mission profiles, jumping , out of the helicopters and banging in, in all the
black.

And I was like, wow, this is really cool. I want a piece of
that. And so I, , I put in my paperwork, , under the guidance of my commander
at the time and, and then started doing the training. So I was kind of like in
the box seat because I was there and getting to meet all these new people. And
then, you know, I sort of just made it aware to them as well.

Hey, this is what I'm wanting to do. I just signed up for this.
And so then that way it's , oh yeah, you're going to have a go, , at becoming
qualified. So they just give tips and they're always happy to be able to share.
That valuable information on, on what I needed to do to go in. And ultimately
it's your, , you have to be self disciplined to do that.

But I signed up and, , yeah, had, had my shot at, , doing the
barrier test, which I'd passed. And then, , onto the, , selection, which, , I
was fortunate enough to be selected. You know, um, for me at the time though, ,
I retained my trade. So I was dual, what they call dual qualified Rosie. the
reason for that was as a new capability post bit posting into the unit, , in
that sort of model, , as an attachment, , we were new.

And so we needed to be able to, , to get some street cred, so
to speak, and what better way to get street cred, but then by not riding on the
coattails of someone's achievements, but actually going in and going, Hey,
look, as our own, right? We have , our job as the capability to do that within
the signals, which is , a squadron.

Within that organization, there was qualified dudes and you're
like, , I want to have a go. And so I did and retained mine, but the beauty
about it was then I could actually hook in and do both roles when needed. So it
was really cool. Like, you know, they're like, okay, well, you've got the
skills too, man.

If you need to have some training or you want to jump in on a
job, like you would, , like we did in Afghanistan, it's like, you're just an
extra body that's trained that they trust and all that. So, um, it was really
cool to have both.

Rosie Skene:

. And, yeah, and you can be
utilized, like you said, and, you know, have a bit of fun too.

Andy Fermo:

Yeah. Yeah. I like the cross
skills.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, absolutely. So you just
mentioned Afghanistan. Is that your first, uh, deployment?

Andy Fermo:

It was the first overseas
deployment.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy Fermo:

So I just, I, I just missed out
on, on, um, uh, like a team or just the operational landscape that had
happened. There was a couple of details that had come through that, I don't
really need to talk about it at the moment, but, , missed out on Timor and
Afghanistan after that.

So the domestic counter terrorism, of, uh, the Commonwealth
games was, uh, considered as a, you know, as a domestic operation. So it was an
operation, but not overseas in a war fighting role. , that's what happened when
we went to the, , So my first tour of Afghanistan in 2007 so, um, comm games,
then I did all my commando training and then basically, , one of the things
was, , and you want to go to Timor, do you want to get Afghanistan?

I'm like, nah, I'll go to Afghanistan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosie Skene:

So you volunteer to go overseas,
don't like, do you put your hand up or do they say we need a certain amount of
people to go, um, who's interested? Like, how does that even work when you get
deployed?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, look, it's a, it's a bit of
both, , because we were in a, quite a niche capability and there wasn't that
many of us as well. So there were one, there was the one, the qualified, , So I
was just newly qualified a, as a commando. And then they wanted to be able to
use that metal in the role. So I was in the box seat, so to speak, to be, um,
the team leader for that first role, , and do the job in Afghanistan for real,
because there'd been a bit of a gap between, um, There was a little bit of gap,
not too long, but there was before , our, um, rotation was sent over.

So, uh, Yeah, I would always just put my hand up , when you're
in that environment, that's what , you want to, if I think that anyone that
says that because, and this is speaking to the partners, oh, they're making me
go, but they're making me go down, , but the thing is, you know, at work, it's
like, yeah, let's go, let's go.

And, but the thing was, I wasn't tied down to any relationship
at the time. So I'm like, yeah, , I'm, yeah. I would love nothing more than to
get a Guernsey and be able to do the job for real. That's what we signed up
for. ,

Rosie Skene:

yeah, it was, uh,

Andy Fermo:

I started a line.

Rosie Skene:

Sorry. I totally appreciate what
you're saying there because I, um, talking to my husband and friends of his and
my sister and her friends, and just, , the whole community that we're in that I
like that to doing all your police training, but never making an arrest.

Like the same sort of desire that you have, like you do all
this training for this purpose to, , go out and do what you do,, actively in a,
in a war type situation or a war zone. And then if you, to say no thanks, it's
sort of like, , what's the point of all that training that I've done?

That's, that's what your job role is. That's what gets you
going, isn't it?

Andy Fermo:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You
know, and even, thinking about that from the, from a first responder point of
view, you know, the, the actual, the actual, uh, area of operations is every
day when you go out onto the beat, which is, , I think, um, speaking, speaking
to that is a lot more because you're going now into the, into public every day
when you're on duty, that's, that's the, uh, that's the battleground, so to
speak.

You know, so you never know what's going to happen.

Rosie Skene:

No, that's the thing. I've, I've
had a few conversations with, , defense force members that think about
transitioning and I'm like, well, it's a little bit. It's like going to war
every day, but you, you know, you don't get all the, , you do get a little bit
of training, but I know before you guys go overseas, , there's quite a bit of
preparation that you undertake to do that.

And , you don't get that every day as a cop, unfortunately, you
just get out and go and do your job and that's it.

[00:19:57]

Andy Fermo:

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And that's the
thing. That's when all that crucial training comes in. Isn't it?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. A hundred percent. So do
you want to talk about your time in Afghanistan?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah.

. So I did two tours. And , yeah, , the first tour was, it was
a great eye opener.

, and we were fortunate, , at that point in time that, that
there was no, uh, like full on casualties. , we did have, uh, a couple of
casualties, but like a lot, it wasn't a full. You know, someone that has been
killed in action or something like we had some wounded in action and we had
some lots of kinetic activity on that first one, lots of gunfighting and
battles.

But I think because we had returned back at that time as, as
that major force, the, um, the enemy Scape. , the landscape was we were still
fresh and they hadn't had a chance to be able to really study the tactics and ,
how, uh, a large organization such as a commandos like heavy hitters heavily
tooled up, , the heavy hitter, , of the special forces, , command.

You know, within , that's the role of the commandos. Right. So
just to go in and, as a heavily tooled, , unit, um, we, they didn't have the,
they didn't have all those. , but hadn't sussed us out yet as much. So we were
fortunate in that second, , sorry, in that, in my first, uh, rotation, but on
the second rotation, , went from rotation four to rotation nine, and that was
only, two thousand, two thousand seven.

So two years, , or 20 within 24 months, , the landscape. So
there'd be five, five rotations in between. It was, , it was very different, ,
vastly different. And, , the IED. Landscape had also increased exponentially.
So there was a lot of IED related incidences that, , that had happened. And
then also that, , we'd suffered a few casualties as well, , in that time from
our first rotation, which was rotation 4 through to the rotation 9.

There'd been a couple of, , yeah, killed in action and those
blokes , had been, , Paid the ultimate sacrifice, uh, in, in the line of duty.
So, you know, it was, it was different. And then that's where, when we got to
the, , when we got to our second tour, we were going out for a month operation
and it was a little bit different as well, in terms of at that time, without
going into too much detail, we were invited to go out of area.

Yeah. , for some other tasking. So it was a large force that
had come in to go outside the area. We were, . We were in vehicles, so that was
another one. So that was the last sort of tour that incorporated a lot of
vehicle operations and being mobile, just because of that IED threat had
increased so much.

Plus, there was a lot of other assets that were out there at
the time, helicopters, so then you could bang in on specific jobs. , but with
that, within that first 10 days of that month long operation was when I, ,
experience that, that, , trauma triangle that I'll call, , what I'm calling the
trauma triangle.

So that was like three severely, , traumatic incidences, all
IED related Rosie in succession. So within a couple of days, each other.

Rosie Skene:

Wow.

Andy Fermo:

Yeah. And then so the second,
I'll, I'll, I'll actually speak to that because I think that I really respect
it. And I'd like to be able to keep the memory alive. Of the, um, if, if that's
okay to, to sort of mention these, these men, these brave men and the actions
of all , the call sign.

So, uh, of all the, you know, the people that were involved in
that commando company group. Afterwards. So the first one was when, , Sergeant
Brett Till , he was disarming, uh, a cluster of IEDs on a major highway. And, ,
one of them, because it was such quite a, , quite a complex task to go in, he,
he, um, he, he was blown up in the, in the line of duty.

And , again, so I'll speak to all the events where the guys, ,
Really, um, all their training cut in and everyone chipped in and just The
actions of the boys, , after all these incidences were just second to none. And
I think that, , there should have been more medals that were issued out as part
of what they did, , then what have been, but, , just acknowledging that now and
their actions to be able to, , provide security, keep everything safe after all
those incidences, as well as, eliminate the enemy threat was really or
neutralize the enemy threat , was a massive one.

Uh, and so. Sergeant Brett Till passed away. A few days later,
, our roads, our heavy, , sorry, our Bushmaster Armoured Vehicle, , ran over an
IED, and so there was mass casualties in that where, , a lot of the guys had
traumatic brain injury. Instances that were blown up in the vehicle like if you
can just imagine the force of this bomb big sort of tank type vehicle blew the
engine out, blew the tires off and so whoever was inside got shaken around like
in the can there.

And I was fortunate enough in terms of not to get any blood.
Traumatic brain injury because I was manning the rear gun. So I was like
standing out of a manhole , on a weapon on the mag 58 and , that's where my
injuries came in because I would have been, if I wasn't holding on to the
weapon and the manhole, I would have been like a human cannonball and would
have been injected from the, , from the, uh, from the vehicle.

And then afterwards as well, again, that was, , all these IED D
incidences were, , were the trigger. For larger enemy activity, it's like a, ,
a, uh, yeah, like a trap, , so you go in and there's a lot of enemy activity.
Um, and then again, the boys did an amazing job. So that was, that was that
incident.

And then, , turning everything around from that traumatic
incident, I'm glazing over it a little bit. I didn't, , I'm, I am mindful of
what we spoke about beforehand, so I didn't want to trigger anyone. Um, and
then. There was that incident and a few days later, , it was a different type
of vehicle, but private Damien Tomlinson, , their call sign ran over a roadside
bomb.

And then again, the boys just did an amazing job, but he lost
his legs, , after that incident. And, uh, so well, you know, he's, he's doing
amazing stuff now. Uh, for the, for the community, , afterwards, but we also
have had that second lease on life to, to go in after those incidents,
incidences, but they were highly traumatic.

And then, because the operationally focused Rosie, , we still
had a whole tour to complete and then the rest of the month. So that was, , 10
days within 10 days of a 30. 35 day, mission, all happened at the start at the
beginning of the tour. So, you know, it was really hard to be able to, I think
the difficulty was, you know, knowing you just have to park it.

So I put it in the parking lot , way out back there, never to
be looked at again in the, let's impound that and then just lock the key and
put it away. , and then it wasn't until I got back when, um, we could unpack ,
the, that trauma.

[00:27:08]

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Wow. Um, I thank you so
much for your service and to those men that were with you.

And yeah, I know at that time, like there was a lot of stuff
happening. And of course, , after you say those incidents is like the, uh, like
a trigger for. For more, um, afterwards that we won't talk about, but I can't
even imagine, , how traumatic that must have been for you. But then to have to
continue to stay there, , after you've lost a mate and, you know, and Damien,
going through what he went through,

I, , I totally understand what you're saying about parking
your, any feelings or emotions or probably even thoughts about. What's going on
and why, because you're there for a specific job role. And like you said, you
still have to stay there and, and do that job.

So when you come back, how was that and how long did it take
after you came back for some of that stuff to start to hit the surface?

[00:28:10]

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, great question there, Rosie.
, I'll, is it all right if I could answer that in a moment? Because I just
wanted to speak to that last little bit in regards to, , to parking and, , I
think if, if, if we didn't, and, that was the first part of the traumatic,
there was many more traumatic events like, but that's more of a cumulative, ,
action , of you being in war, it is war, , but I think, um, if, if, if you
didn't, , Have the ability to compartmentalize at the time it would put your
team and the call sign and the whole group in danger, or you'd be a liability
because you just couldn't focus on what the task was, even like thinking, ,
going home, I just need, I need the support of my family and all this stuff,
operationally speaking, it's very difficult to be able to speak to them about
stuff.

Um, when things are going on overseas, so you're just like you
compartmentalize it and there's a reason for it. And then it keeps people
alive, keeps you alive and, and, , you can unpack it, which is that segue now
to afterwards where the trauma didn't really start to bubble up because we were
so busy.

I actually got home when everyone went on leave. I continued on
with, there was some tasking for me that I needed to complete. Um, with, uh,
some other courses and then also a recruitment drive as well. So I continued
working for a number of months, , after my tour. So I didn't really have a
chance to really decompress, but when I finally got on leave.

Um, I, and then, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's life.
That's what it was, , I signed up to do that, but when I finally got on leave,
I clearly remember the day, , I was in a furniture shop with my wife. We were
like going cruising around and just having a bit of a look around. And I heard
over the radio that there was a helicopter incident, which, , Included, , three
killed in action.

Uh, three of the boys that I knew, , had passed. And, , and
then mass casualties again in the helicopter incident. And I, that was the
trigger for me where all the, all my stored trauma sort of came up and up, ,
I'm not afraid to say it now and may be vulnerable as I bought my eyes out and
turned into a bit of a mess , and had to leave , the building and, , In front
of a whole bloody crowded shop.

So that was the start of, of really, uh, you know, sort of
where the, the, the mental health sort of issues that sort of arisen for me and
that, , that compartment had been unlocked. No. Yeah. So, um, yeah, not

[00:30:45]

Rosie Skene:

real good for you to be in public
when you've, um, yeah, when all that comes up out of the parking lot, so to
say, and

[00:30:53]

Andy Fermo:

I just want to sort of mention as
well.

I use that in, in, in context of what happened, , as the trigger for me, um, and just hearing
about that and not being able to do anything, , it was already passed because
when an incident like that happens, Rosie, um, as you, as you'd be aware, in
that first responder role is that you can't really say anything about the job
until, you know, even if it's out on the media, there's stuff on news.

The, the actual details don't come out and, and when you're in
the blackout out, , it's really hard to, to be able to do that. So I knew that
the incident had already happened and so there, there was already some time
passed by the time we'd heard it. Not too much time, but you know, there was
all this stuff so.

Um, yeah, that was the start of the, that, um, really unpacking
all those traumas.

Rosie Skene:

Can I ask you what year this was
that, that, where you first, , started unpacking the trauma?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, it was, it was sort of
towards the end of 2009.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. In that
time in history, like we didn't talk about this too much. Now,

how did you, how did you navigate that? And did you know what
was up? Like, did you know, um, your signs and symptoms or did you sort of
just. Think maybe you're just upset, obviously, because you've lost people that
you, you know, um, or did you write something a bit deeper?

Andy Fermo:

Oh, I knew it was something
deeper.

you kind of know that
there's something deeper going on, but I just didn't want to, one, I didn't
want to acknowledge it or, or even vocalize what was going on because when,
when that sort of happens and I sort of broke down the first thing then that
was off, I don't, I don't want to be.

I don't want to be perceived as weak that this happened there
and I had this incident, who am I going to tell, , when you don't say anything
as well during that time because you're so operationally focused, you go, well,
well, I want my next trip, you know, when am I going to go on the next yippee
trip, , and get to do the job again, and that's part of your, , that's part of
the identity that you're doing it.

So you don't really say anything or, , if you, even if you're
saying stuff to the boys, it's at that superficial level, unless you're really
working so intimately where you can have these one on one conversations with
some of the guys, , say for the dudes that I went with, we were kind of
attachments and, and then we were so busy at that particular point in time.

It was really hard to be able to, when we got home. Everyone
did their own roles again, , so it was hard to be able to get any, everyone who
was in that call sign in the same spot at the same time, , the guys that were
there that we did, we kind of just ignored speaking about it. So for me, it was
like, okay, I'm not going to really acknowledge it.

I'm going to ignore it. And then I didn't want to say anything
because that's what we call career suicide. I'm mentioning someone, you become
a liability. So I actually, , recognize that. And I. I did two things. So
firstly, the first role was to be able to, , and I was speaking to this to, uh,
to a site recently.

It's, it's, it's called, uh, what does, what did he call? Is it
coping badly? But I'm coping, but I'm coping badly. And it's not a sustainable
way to, um, to be able to cope, but it's a coping mechanism and that coping
mechanism was, , prescription drugs and bloody, , the abuse of that. And then
also the abuse of, , of alcohol as well.

So more increased alcoholism, um, in that way. So , if we look
at the levels there, it was just increasing, you know, we all know that within
those organizations that there is a culture of. I don't know what it's like now
and people can say that there isn't, but there probably still is. Um, but the
thing was for me, it was an increased rate.

So, you know, when you can have a base level of, of going, this
is what's normalized anyway. And then you go that that's increased, , and still
be functioning. That's the one way to cope, but it's not a way to be able to
cope, um, for a prolonged period of time. So, you know, all those little things
there, um, taking stuff to try and go to sleep to this, this, , trying to, you
know, Adjust things, , it just wasn't a way to, to be able to go.

And so I went and sought out, uh, some professional help, , off
my own back. So there was, , a couple of other organizations that were open to
doing it, but at the same time, I just didn't want to. At the time, I didn't
want to have that leak to go into the, to the unit because I knew that some
people were there.

So at first, the first protocol after that, I knew that it
wasn't really going well with the, um, coping badly, , was. Was to go in and
seek my own, , a psychiatrist and psychologist and, checked in to do a, a bit
of a, like a sort of AA or alcoholics type course , and all those little things
just to go in.

So at least then for me, it was like, I need to get my head on
paper, but then also it was like a, a paper trail to say, Hey, look, he's
actually sought out some stuff if , ever sort of came in, um, along these
lines. And, that all came out at the wash later on. Um, Um, you know, I sort of
sorted my head out, but as I mentioned earlier on, , I had a top secret
clearance and, um, you have to be vetted annually and for me, , and, you know,
this is my opinion, , so I'm, you know, I don't want a thing with the process
there or I'm not, this was my, , experience and that is that there's stuff that
I divulged as part of my vetting process that I thought would be, , That would
be, , a little bit more in confidence, but the, the people that actually
conduct these tests only see what's on paper.

And so that, , that was my experience. And then, so shared some
stuff that came nothing yet. If I shared this stuff here, my head's right.
I'll, um, I'll be able to then just continue on because no one will be able to
subvert in the job I was in, no one would be able to subvert me into. Giving up
secrets because I already told what had happened.

Right? No, that wasn't the case. And, , without going too far
or too politically into that, that my experience was when I was a bit too
honest , with what was going on, , and where the demise was, was that kind of
like, Put up some flags. And then when I lost the clearance, I was on my way
to, , I was going overseas for, for some training, for a specific capability.

And, , it's like, no Fermo, you're, you're not going anymore.
And I said, what's going on? And they said, you've lost your clearance. So when
that all unhappened and that was the unraveling of all this other stuff. Um,
that you try to sort of keep on the tabs, it just makes it bigger than Ben Hur
because what it looks like is it looks like you've been hiding, but what are
you doing is you're not reporting that to your subordinates.

So then that way you're not perceived as weak. , whether that's
sort of that double edged sword is, um, that I shot myself in the foot by doing
that, but they're the decisions that I want that I made at the time and I'll
stand by them to be able to, to continue on the role that I'd love doing.

And that was, that was the thing, you know, so, um. But I
think, you know, looking back in hindsight now, , and after all this work with
the wellness, things happen for a reason, but that was, that was the unravelling
of everything there, Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. And I think at that time,
if someone said to you, this is all happening for a reason, you probably would
have told him to get fucked like, because

Andy Fermo:

I would, I would have told him yes
to, I would have given the big finger and said, what the hell are you going on
about?

Um, because yeah, it's just. It's, yeah, you know, when you
think of it from, from the, from now, from the hindsight and the, all the other
train, um, training and learnings that we've done, um, especially in the
wellness space, uh, you think that, that, that's a lot of growth.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, a hundred percent. That's a
lot of growth.

And like, I can even imagine at the time with you. Navigating
your mental health by yourself because I don't care what people say it can be
career suicide to speak up and say you have got an issue like you're going to
get sidelined and, and that eventually in a different sort of way. That's what
happened to you.

But by doing that, they take away that identity as well. Um,
and then. Then it sort of snowballs from there, doesn't it? Like your mental
health deteriorates more because you can't do what you want to do, but you
still need to get help. Um, and there's just so much going on and none of it's
really conducive to being mentally well.

Andy Fermo:

No, it's, it's, it's not. So, you
know, once that all came out of the wash and lost the clearance, I couldn't
actually perform my role in any sort of capacity. Even though it's like, I went
from hero to zero within, , in a really short period of five minutes,
basically. And then so. As I couldn't do my role, I was like, well, I'm, I'm
still capable.

Um, but the thing is because the, the whole administrative
process hadn't been given its due process, , I was sidelined and put into like
a, what was essentially, , a different section where I was dealing. It was, you
know, like, and those guys do a great job, but I was put from my job into the Q
store at the back, , issuing phones out to people.

So people were like, what the hell, what the fuck's going on,
Andy? , and you go, well, look, there's some stuff that's going on and you
don't want to divulge everything out there. Otherwise people are talking, um,
because you, , in hope. That you want to secretly and hope you want the
situation to get better, even though , that it's actually going to get worse,
which is why, which is one part of it, not being able to explain that situation
is another.

So there's the isolation. And then thirdly, once that sort of
happens, , and the cat gets out of the bag that you can't do the role, then
they can't talk about any operational stuff, even though, what's happening
anyway. So they kind of like turn their back to you, but it's not. It is on
purpose, but it's not on purpose.

It's just that's, you know, operational security and how it's
got to be. But that doesn't mean that I didn't feel isolated or alone because,
, I was in a section there with the guys were sort of empathetic a little bit.
But still, I couldn't really divulge any information because their clearance
wasn't even , wasn't up to a certain level.

So you can't even talk about it with anyone. It's just, this
guy's just rocked up. Just give him some stuff to do to, for the wheels to be
in motion for that while they're lost. Right. So that was the whole thing. So
there's the isolation you're trying to deal with your own, you know, this is
just actually the work stuff.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy Fermo:

Um, and then, and then you, then
I'm like having to deal with, , What am I going to do? All these questions.
This is my identity and what, what makes it worse. Uh, when you rejected from
what you see before your time. So I was thinking, okay, probably I've got
another five years left in me. Probably could have even been 10 in hindsight.

You know, I, I, I never know. I never got to walk that path,
but it would have been at least another five where I'm like, okay, I need to
set myself up to be able to do these courses to, to, , to get out. Then I can
set myself up for when I separate. From the organization, I'm doing it on my
terms and when that's brought forward, when, and you go, Oh, actually, I didn't
have any of those things in place, it's the cuda, but didn't, , so that thing
really played on it on what I was going to do, because I was not ready mentally
or emotionally or physically to be able to go into another role to any, to be
effective in it in any way for a prolonged period of time, you know?

So.

Rosie Skene:

That was, that was really, that
was difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And people would

Andy Fermo:

find that. Yeah, I found that that
was really difficult. That made things actually even harder, like you mentioned
before, because there's so much going on. Um, and then, you know, there's the,
have you done these claims and, or, , there's the claims process and then
seeing medical people and then seeing the, , the supports.

And when you're going through those motions, you don't want to
acknowledge that it's actually happening, but you have to, because that's part
of the, the discharge process that you have to go and do all these things. So
you're kind of secretly hoping that this has happened. And then, , once I got
out on that last day, I'm like, Oh, what the hell is to go?

So even like I was still doing. I was fortunate enough to go
into a job straight, straight away, um, straight out of the army, but I was so
highly strung and hadn't, I was just, I was in avoid what they, we call
avoidance mode. So I was avoiding having to set anything up. Like all this
terrible stuff had just happened to me and I just didn't want to have a bar of
it.

So, and I was angry and, and that, that was a bit, a lot of it
was anger, , a lot of it was, um, built up and so that was a bit destructive as
well. Um, and then, yeah, so I was still doing these things in the hope
secretly, , I'd be doing PT, I'd wake up early, do PT, and then I'd do like,
this is when the boys are doing this, and maybe I might get a call and say, we
need you.

The call never came that, that's the secret hope. That's the
secret hope. Oh, maybe I'll get a Guernsey on. They'll need someone else. And,
and unfortunately for me is that, um, you know, look, Because of the way that
it was discharged, I didn't get medical. It was, it was turned around as a
medical discharge afterwards.

Um, uh, on the grounds, you know, for my particular situation.
But at the time it's like, well, you're getting out here. So I couldn't even
sign up as a reservist or looking to go into any other. Uh, any of the other
streams, say, for example, the guys get out of the military and they'll join an
emergency services, first responder services.

A lot of them do that. That's a, that's a, , a lot of that's a
natural progression, um, post military service. So all those doors were closed,
I was going down that tunnel. That was, there was no lights in the tunnel. I
was just kind of like a, like a dim light, maybe somewhere else. So I was kind
of bumbling around, , trying to get my shit in order, basically Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. . You just, you mentioned
before when you had your first triggering event that you're, you're with your
wife. So

Andy Fermo:

yes,

Rosie Skene:

you had a wife by that stage. Do
you have, did you have children?

Andy Fermo:

No, no. Well, she, she's my, I, I
call her my, she was, she was girlfriend at the time. Girlfriend, yeah.

But now what? So, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I, I, you know, I'd
just, yeah. Actually just proposed to her. So we were planning our wedding.
Yeah. So no children at the time, but we had some other stuff that was sort of,
um, planning and, you know, I, I was going through all this other things and
she was just a great support for me.

But she had her own career as well. Um, she's a very
independent person as well. That's what I love about her, , and so. As, as
someone that's was there, she was like, Oh, the fuck's going on with this dude,
, but she was, she's, she stood by me and, um, and really sort of was
pivotable, pivotable, uh, sorry.

pivotal in, when I started seeing all the specialists for my
own care and they said, you know, bring your wife in. She was actually quite
open to being able to be part of that process and, and in that support role.
Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing that
you had that support. Um, Where, you know, defense was lacking really, um, and
still are, but we won't get into that.

Um, it could be here all day. So how did you navigate that?
Because that would have been a real tough time, like losing that identity. And
then, you know, you said that you had a job to go into, but was it something
that you actually really wanted to do, or you just had to pay the bills at that
time? ,

Andy Fermo:

a bit of both.

So I'd had to pay the bills and Sydney's expensive. So we were
living. , we were living in the inner ring of Sydney close to the city, place
called Lilyfield and it was, but Sydney is an expensive, even in 2009, 2010. It
was inexpensive to be living in a townhouse. And when you're, when you're in
the military, you know, there's certain perks, like, you know, while the, , if
you, , in a de facto relationship, you can have like rental assistance,
different posting bits.

So there's all the little perks that you get. And once you're
out, those perks aren't there anymore. And, and, it was really expensive to
live. So one was that sort of survival mode, but at the same time, I sort of.
My interest was in, , I'm a self taught cook, and I thought, oh, you know,
Master Chef had just started.

I thought, oh, how hard could this be? I've got a couple of
really great mates that are head chefs now. How hard could this bloody thing
be? And so I went and, um, And, uh, signed, you know, found several, uh, three
chef hat restaurants. I'm like, well, I'm, I'll, I was still 10 foot tall in my
head at the time.

I'm like, Oh fuck. I'll, uh, I'll, I'm going to, why would I
just want to get an apprenticeship at the pub when I could get, I could go high
level. I'm watching master chef. How hard could this be? So I was just like,
I'll go to the three chef hat restaurants. And I went to three different ones.
And I got called in, , for trials on all of them and all of them called me
back.

And it was just basically the first one that, that called me
back was the first one and the beauty about what they saw was. You know, um,
people, the boys give me shit about, they go, this is Casey Ryback, the chef
from, , it was a really old movie. Um, with, um, Steven Seagal in it. Uh, and
anyway, he's, he's this chef, right.

Um, it was this former special forces guy. Um, so I'm like,
okay, well, I'll get this apprenticeship and I was a mature age apprentice. So
basically they saw that there was a skill there. I was a team leader. I , had
the skills there and I wasn't going to be like some 17 year old, , kid being
the yes man.

Like I had my own mind and I could make decisions about certain
bits and bobs. And so they took advantage of that straight away. Matured age
apprenticeship. It does not pay much Rosie. It really doesn't. So I was just
working more hours to try and get by with the pittance that I was earning. It
was a big shift and I found it, you know, in terms of , it was a big punch and
hurt to the ego, which made things even worse because when you're in that sort
of, um, organization, you do get a bit of a bigger ego and it's not just, , in
a bad way, but you just, yeah.

At this higher operating at a different level when I got
brought down, um, and chopped down into the sink, this is, , this is the real
world now. Um, and, and people are going through this. And so I'd, I'd actually
just divulged into that. That was avoidance. So I was, because I wanted one, I
needed to make more money because there was not much pay.

I was just working myself to the ground and it got to this
point where, , I was just, I , I wasn't sleeping anyway, so I was really only
getting maybe an hour and a half, two hours maximum. And then putting my hand
up to work six days a week, even sometimes a seventh. And then, so trying to be
with my fiance at the time, trying to plan a wedding , and going through all
that mental health stuff, it was like, I was just sending myself into one, you
know, oblivion, , from that sort of state with work to try not to think about
anything.

And at the same time, and I've not really shared this, , much
at all, Rosie is, you know, cause I still had that sort of sense of civic
beauty. I'll, I'll use the analogy, right. If you're in the fire brigade and
sometimes there's the guys that will light up the bloody fire so then they
could go and put the fire out.

So I was riding home from the city and because Sydney on George
Street or Pitt Street when I'd be riding home from the restaurant and this is
maybe at 2, 3 in the morning before I'd have to get a couple of hours kip to go
back in and start doing the early shift. You know, at that point in time,
there's still quite a fair bit of violence on the streets.

So sometimes I just go in there and be mining because I was
just angry all the time. I just wanted to sort of pick a fight. But what I do
is I'd kind of like entice whatever something was happening in the fight and
it's picking a little bit so that when it had happened, I could just jump in
and help the person that was bit, you know?

So I'm like, that's, this is not really. It's coping badly
again, Rosie. Um, and so I'm like, here's my civic duty and he's going to come
in and just,, and, but, cause I just wanted to punch on, but the thing was, it
wasn't really a smart move because I didn't have the boy, you know, like
there's a buddy system in the military where you've got your backup.

You know, as a colleague, as a cop, you'd have your backup.
You'd, it'd be silly to go in on your own, but because I wasn't in the best
mental state at the time and just trying to find and fill a void that for me
was, um, you know, Coping silly again, it was like, , we'd finish shift at the,
and then instead of going home, I'd be wanting to, to get to know these crew.

And then there was this sort of, , culture of alcoholism as
well. You'd go out and get a few drinks in , and do that sort of thing. And so
that wasn't conducive to what I was doing. So I'd be going home sort of kind of
half cut and that's more enticing to sort of poke the bear a little bit. Um,
and so that's what happened to me, , until I actually went and sought help.

Um, and then it got to that point where Claire was like, mate,
you know, I'm seeing you, you're present, but you're not present. So she was
trying to make all these nice, it was like going out on a first date every
single time we'd get the time to catch up.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy Fermo:

And, , it just, I was present, but
I wasn't present because I was so tired or I was angry.

So it was like kind of walking on eggshells for her and she's
like, mate, you know, so I, I, Was so close to finishing the apprenticeship,
but I was like, you know what? I'm I've got to just make a decision now. Thanks
for the opportunity, but this isn't for me right now. And it was around about
that point there where I'd actually gone in and sought out a little bit more
help, acknowledged that something wasn't right.

The coping badly wasn't working. Um, and, um, I don't want to
have an intervention like I had, , I didn't want to have one of those
experiences. So I'm like, you know what, I'll, uh, I, I sought out a advocate.
Or someone that could help me with my claims and all that sort of thing. , and
they really sort of put it, put the Tom, they, I, I was a woken up to some
truths, , he didn't suffer fools and he was like, mate, you just need to pull
your head out of your ass.

This is what's happening. And it was a bit of tough love, , for
me at the time, , if you're talking about some mental health stuff, sometimes
there is really that scope to, you know. Hey, hey, snap out of it, mate. And so
that was where I was. And, you know, after, after that point, that was where
that's the snap out of it.

Okay, well now I can actually guide you in a normal way, but he
just needed to put the hammer and tong on to me. Um, his name was David
Christie and a really great bloke. And he taught me to navigate my way through
that. So, you know, as much as it was that you mentioned before, trying to get
these systems in place to get earns money and it's out of necessity.

He helped put the systems in place that at least there was some
sort of, , safety net underneath, , in the process of the military process,
it'd be kind of like a bit of a compo claim where there was a slight, there was
a, um, a partial, a partial, , acceptance of the claim where then that way and
enabled you to have some sort of safety net while I got my head sorted out.

So that's what it was. They called it an interim. Interim sort
of part of that claim where I didn't need to worry as much on the financial bit
while the process was to be able to get my head straight. And he said, we need
to get your head straight first. If you can't think properly or you can't do
anything, you can't move forward at all.

Um, so that was fortunately for me, that sort of start to be
able to do some really big changes and go into that really intense. Part of, ,
of the mental health journey and growth, you know, post traumatic, um, yeah,
work.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. It's a lot of work, isn't
it?

That's a lot of work. And I used to say to people like, , when
I left about 2017, 2018, , there's a lot of cops that would say not to your
face directly, but, , in the locker room, you know, oh, they're just after the
money or like, whatever they would say, , they just want to pay out, blah,
blah, blah.

They want to get out easy. Like if you wanted to get out easy,
you would not go through this fucking process. Like if you weren't crazy before
the process would send you that way because it is brutal. , And I know like,
yeah, there's big, there's eyes all over Defence at the moment and their
processes and procedures and how they do things.

But for you back then, like I can imagine it would have been
quite similar to go through that whole journey, , and the process of discharge
and navigating your mental health as well. So yeah, I can really appreciate
where you're coming from there. So when did you start to notice a little bit of
post traumatic growth and how did that look for you?

Andy Fermo:

Uh, well, that, that would took a
long time before there was any sort of growth at all really. Um, yeah. It was
just trying to get it in order. So like a lot of, a lot of that, a lot of that
work was the exposure therapy, the CBT, uh, yeah, sorry, the CBT training, um,
the, the exposure training, all, all that stuff there, you name it, I did it.

So it was kind of, you know, I did, I did it both ways where I
went to, , an organization, it was called, , VVCS. At the time Vietnam veterans
and family service, right? VVCS um, but now it's called open arms. And so they
had like a, um, you know, a counseling service, which was open to the veteran
and the family.

And then there was also the specialist help, which was the,
which was. Treating psychiatrist. And so I had both. So I was going in for the
psychiatrist work and then in between those specialist appointments, I was
seeing like the, , the counselor, , who was also a qualified psychologist.

Just to be able to unpack a lot of stuff. And so at that time,
because there hadn't been as many sort of, since the Vietnam era, there was, ,
stuff that was coming out from, , from Timor and, and more so either Iraq or
Afghanistan, Cause that was so early in the piece, , that was early part of
that 20 years that they were there for, um, that process was still a bit
convoluted, you know what I mean?

But, so, but, and then a lot of the treatment as well was still
at that move. It was moving on from that Vietnam era of how they would try and
treat people for, for, for mental health and in particular PTSD. So I, I tried,
they, they wanted to try some different bits and I'm like , yeah, cool. I'll,
I'll just do the work.

So I had, I had a crack at everything. , And then that sort of
also brought my wife in, which was, which was lucky because then she could
support me. Um, and yeah, , she didn't have to, and , she was my fiance at the
time, but she did, and she's hung out with me ever since, lucky me. Yeah. So,
you know, I think.

I had to do a lot, a lot of work with the exposure therapy
before I even started to see some sort of growth and it's still a continual
process. Now, I think that shift in the mindset. Besides trying to deal with
all those jumbled thoughts, there's one is learning to deal with the jumbled
thoughts and put them in some sort of order, but then also finding ways to be
able to then have a coping mechanisms and tools that have come down.

So that's a big process there. And that runs concurrently with
also you trying to navigate, trying to connect with a, uh, specialist, right?
So there's a lot of people that are fucking tried this once, mate. They just, ,
I didn't connect. So they, therefore all of them must be shit and that's the
thing.

And, uh, and that's it. So, my guy said, man, you know what, I
don't like to say this, but I'm going to say it because , if you have to go
doctor shopping and find out of the way, but not doctor shopping for scripts,
he goes, mate, see, what's the, you got to keep going till you find what
sticks. So even if there's someone where you can have a remote, , Connection to
be able to be at least a little bit more open because, , they put you at ease
straight , within a couple of sessions, not just one, give it several, even
three or four or something like that.

And if it doesn't work, then move on to the same guy to a new
person, because then that way you're finding someone that connects with you and
that's the whole thing now. So that that was a process in itself. Once that
sort of happened, I'm like, okay, well now I've got. Capacity one to at least
make some semi better decisions.

But then I'm not like going to still go in and go into work
because that was my thing is like, you know, a bit of a workaholic. This is,
this is me if I'm not working. What, what is there? And I suppose that comes
down to our society as well. , in Australia, like our, the Western culture is
like, if you're not working, then what are you doing?

You know, you must be bludgeoning. But the thing is the work, ,
which my advocate and all the specialists, the work here for you at the moment,
Andy, It's you, but you need to work on you before you can help anyone else.
It's , putting the bloody mask on in the plane before helping anyone else.

The same rings true. So it's like, so this is work because if
you don't sort this out now, there's going to be, there's going to be issues.
Moving forward because you're just trying to just cover it up, , besides
dealing with it. So, I was taught quite early to be able to do that. And it
doesn't make the work any easier, but that work was fucking hard, man.

Like it really is. So, when I started to do that work, the
first point. Which is , going to, to really answer your question there. Rosie
was, where did I see the growth? The first point in the growth was when I spoke
to my wife and I was doing a lot of, , exposure therapy and one of the, one of
the tools that the, , that my psychiatrist and, and the counsellor had sort of
given me was this thing called floating leaf where this idea of all the jumbled
minds are is like, let's, let's have you visualise these ideas.

And take one of them, pluck them out and then imagine that it's
on a leaf on a river and then it's floating away. So then that way you can make
heads or tail of what's going on in that storm, right? You pluck it, even
though they're not in order, it's just putting them and letting the idea or
thought float away.

We could, , deal with it, but it's one at a time. Um, I told my
wife about this and she said, , we'd moved out to the central coast from
Sydney. Which is just an hour out of town, but it had this beautiful waterways
right near the Hawkesbury river. Um, and I told my wife about it and she's
like, well, you can't surf because your shoulders are fucked.

Maybe I'll do this. And
so she sits me up at the front and said, wait out the front here. I'm like,
what's going on. , and then I'd wanted to get back into paddle, like into
surfing, but my shoulders were bunged. So she listened to this and went, Oh,
okay, well maybe we'll just try this paddle boarding thing that you've also
mentioned.

And so she, a guy rocked up with a trailer and a paddleboard
and,, and delivered it and said, there you go, mate. There's your floating
leaf. So that was part of the reason why I'm so into the paddle boarding,
because then I could take my thoughts. I could be on the water and then I can
be paddling in.

And that was my sort of quiet time, , with nature. And so that
was the first time I actually really experienced some sort of growth in being
able to share something that was going on and then have that , and implement,
okay, , this is cool. I made paddling a regular thing. Especially in those
early days because it was for me, it was like getting those jumbled thoughts in
and then going in and, , sorting out my shit that way as well when I wasn't at
the specialist.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I love paddle boarding. I
got one too. It's so good. Yeah. It's so good. It's that connection with nature
too, especially if you're by yourself and you do it, just take your time and
float down the creek or the river, wherever you're at.

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, nothing's better. And so
that was the whole thing, you know, I was paddling on the, on this waterway and
And, you know, where the waterway was, it was a beautiful area, but sometimes
you're not privy to where all those really posh people are with the big ass
houses until you paddle past them slowly and then see what else all the other,
and I'm like, you know, a little bit sticky beaky and inquisitive by nature.

So I'm like, let's paddle slowly by here and check out that.
Wow. That's really cool. And so, um, It was really great to be able to get to
know the area and also have those thoughts in, you know, once I could actually
get out of my head and enjoy that serenity of paddling. It was, it was amazing.
And that was that first part of the growth.

Rosie Skene:

It sounds like a, a mindfulness
practice, if I wanna put a name on it. Like just being with yourself and just
noticing what's going past as you paddle.

Andy Fermo:

Yep. Yeah. That it is, it is an
absolute mindfulness practice. It's like, yeah, just accept the thought. It's
not gonna define you. Um, it'll, it'll pass. And, and then just, you know,
being mindful that that thought's there and then that is gone.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So from the central coast,
like I know you've moved around a bit and you're in Noosa for a while.

Andy Fermo:

So with, once I'm like, the reason
why as well, we'd moved around a bit is I kind of saw it like, uh, I suppose a
bit like the military posting cycle where, you know, I was used, I grew up as a
mining kid too. So, you know, we'd move every couple of years.

So it wasn't, Anything new to pick up and it wasn't from you
running away from anything. It's like, that's just what you did. Um, but I
think for me, though, these things happen for a reason, like to say that now, ,
it's like, Oh, we need to move to the sunshine, like Central Coast and then to
Noosa, these ideas came in and they were really strong ideas.

It's like, okay, this, this where we are now. Isn't working for
us, but it's like this calling that needs to be there. We need to be here now
for whatever reason that I can't, I can't explain. That was that gut feeling
that came in. But the reason why we'd moved to those, um, from the big smoke in
Sydney to say the central coast of Tenousa was that there was still highly
desirable.

They were great. , Beach location. You're in Coffs, right? So,
you know, that's the beach lifestyle and it is a lifestyle, but it's a highly
populated regional town. So, there's still amenities, there's services and it's
not quite as big as the city, but there's still some hustle and bustle to an
extent.

So, that's what we really loved about doing this is that, ,
when we're on the central post, I could get into town for all my, , We still
had that nature, but we were still into the big smoke. My wife was in corporate
at the time still until we would like, until she was pregnant with our first
kid.

So that would, that worked well there. And then when we had our
second, we were away from. From, uh, immediate support and Claire's mum was up
in Brizzy. So we're like, well, we moved, we checked it out several times,
checked out the Gold Coast. That was super expensive. And we're like, you know
what? Three different said friends said, why don't you consider Noosa?

And we went up there and we're like, oh, this is like perfect
because it has that sort of same element. What we loved about the Central Coast
, had the beach, had , the Noosa River and. And for my mental health, that's
what I, well, that was what was needed, but I still could work. So that was
the, and I was in, , property investment at the time, so I could work from
home, I could go and see my specialist.

I was in this highly populated regional town that had nature, ,
without it being the big smoke. So that, for me, ticked the boxes where, where
I was in terms of mentally and physically and, , professionally as well at the
time. And, um, yeah, that's, it was, it was good to be in those, those areas, ,
which is totally different to where we are now in the big smoke again, but

Rosie Skene:

yeah,

Andy Fermo:

yeah, I'm in Perth now.

So that was, , that was part of that growth as well. And it was
deliberate still, um, to be able to go. You know, exposing myself to a big
smoke where there's lots of people , and triggers for my PTSD, that's not good
conducive to be in that environment. So I really listened to that training as
well.

So we set ourself up for the environment that we're at. But, ,
living in highly desirable holiday destinations isn't always the easiest route
to go. So either you're a super rich person that can fucking afford to live
there without, , you're, that's the retirement plan.

Yeah. Or if you're in a younger demographic.

You kind of got to have several bloody hustles to make ends
meet, , it's where the combination of doing several hot side hustles allows you
to live that lifestyle and be there. And I think that that, , there's a lot of
young families being able to do that away from the big smoke now, but it is, it
is a bit of a hustle and you've got to be able to do these things.

And it's a juggling game between that and keeping, , the
specialist appointments and everything like that going on as well as. Having
that professional career, um, to sustain you financially. Now, moving to Noosa
I had to go from like, well, how can I put it? Having all the, my self care and
specialists in place to then having nothing.

And the thing about the sunshine coast was, um, there were
services there. , but it's got the highest, highest population , of veterans
and also experts responders in that sort of region, it's so highly populated
Southeast Queensland or Northern New South Wales of veterans that the
specialists that are available.

Are rarely available to take on new patients. So that's the
thing is that those services are there, but new patients to one service, the
aging demographic, as well as a new younger contemporary, , demographic is very
difficult. So I found it really hard without any of the tools that I had my
paddle boarding, which was one, a big growth thing there, but, um, and working
out, but in terms of the specialist support.

You know, I'm in a good spot. And that was the worst thing to
think about is that when you're in the good spot and you, then you just go, I'm
all right, I don't need to worry about that fluff anymore. And, , I just did it
for what I needed to do. Um, then the next thing is, , I was on the railroad
and then the next thing it was derailing fast.

So everything kind of unraveled pretty fast without those
specialist care. And I quickly found myself. Um, sort of slipping down a mental
health sort of slope, , was doing some work to be able to get in, but without
that specialist care, , moving somewhere new and pushing shit uphill, trying to
develop my business again was really difficult, made it work, but it was really
taxing on the mental health, which got to that point where Claire was like,
man, Andy's not in a good way to one of our friends, Shane, , who was a veteran
as well.

And his wife, Angie. And he'd been doing this thing, this
breathing thing and, , and the first time I'd heard about this breathing thing,
I was so disrespectful of it that I was like, Oh, it's all blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, you know, the, and I was like, well, how just, I think about myself
now in my reaction to what he was trying to, at least.

Expose me to that it was so I just really, uh, I mentioned it
now because I apologize for being so disrespectful to what you were teaching
me. I know the value of it now and it was literally life changing. So that was
the 1st exposure. But the 2nd 1, my wife was like, maybe she's have another go.
So he gives us call and he said, , drive down to the Goldie.

We'll meet at my place, but we're going, we're going to, , a
place called Mount Warning. So it's on the hinterland between Byron Bay and the
Gold Coast. Big hill, , to the indigenous, , mobs that live in the area. It's
known as a healing center. I didn't know that in any sort of thing about any of
that at the time.

I wasn't really that, I had a spiritual experience with the
paddle boarding, , but we've passed that. So anyway, so I wasn't in the best
spot and he goes, we're going to go here. He goes, mate, you're turning into a
vegan for the weekend and it's a dry bloody weekend. I'm like, Oh God. So no, ,
and there's nothing wrong with vegans, but like for me, I'm a meat eater.

So I'm like, Oh, that was the worst. Possible scenario that of
weekend going away and then plus being dry. So there was no booze and I'm like,
Oh, what are you doing to me, man? What's up with all this hocus pocus, man?
And I'm like, and he goes, nah, not dude. I'm like, okay. And then he goes to
do this. You need to focus on that and you can't have those elements in there.

I'm like, okay, that's probably, I could wrap that around my
head. For us to do what I want to show you, you need to check that shit at the
door, even if it's only temporarily, so we could focus on this. I said, okay,
no worries. So we walked up, did the, , we did the, , sunrise up at the top of
Mount Warning.

And , the few days before that it had been raining. So it was
really wet and tropical in that region. And there was a lot of water trickling
down the hill , and a few Creeks, natural cold bath creeks. And that was the
first time he'd really sort of exposed me to , to cold immersion because the
water was fucking cold, man.

And, and it was flowing, but it was in nature. I was like,
found myself in this stream, wedged between a few rocks and this cold, and it
was really good. And then he also then introduced me to some breathing, but I
wasn't quite ready yet. And then, he said, look, I've, I've got this, this
guy's names.

He was at the start of his journey and he discovered this guy
named Wim Hof. Yeah. I'm not sure the breath, these are big in breath work. And
he was one of the big ones anyway. So because I started this one here. Um, I've
connected with him on one of his first courses here, um, my wife and I, but we
paid for two courses.

I can gift you one if you want, but you need to make me a
promise. And I went, okay, well, what's this promise? He said, , can you, um,
invest 10 minutes a day on yourself to do this for however the long course
work, , for a month? And I said, yeah, I'll do it. And that was in 2017. And so
, now breath works like just bigger than better than the ice baths.

But he was one of the first. And then now we've, since I became
like one of their guinea pigs, as they've built up their wellness business,
amazing wellness business that they're doing. And so what, what they're
learning, you know, I'm like, okay, this is all this stuff. So, you know,
learning with, , Dr. Peter Litchfield, Dan Brule, Anthony, Robbins, , personal,
um, breath work coach and all these amazing, , Belize, Dr. Belize, all these
people, we've learned this stuff. And I'm like, Oh, this breath work really
helps. And so what it did was, , gave me tools that I could implement on my
own. It was free.

And, , yeah, you know, Free on my own. And so I didn't need to
wait for the specialists at that time. So I had, I now discovered that I had
these tools that I could do in between, in, in between my own, , appointments.
And I'm like, wow, that was really empowering to be able to do that because
then it was under my control.

Um, and then so. That was that first thing, the breathing and,
and trying the mindfulness, you know, and it took a long time, that course was
brutal for me because my mind was always wondering and, , there was no meds,
there was no specialist, it was, that was just me, myself, and I had to do this
work, which was quite difficult.

Um, but as I was doing it every day, it became a little bit
easier, , and you start off with small steps. Rosie and, and move to the big
ones. And then as time's gone by, , my inquisitive nature, I'm like, okay,
let's try it. What's this mindfulness or what's this yoga? , How do I get into
that?

Oh, it's not yoga. I'm doing stretching. I, it's just, it's
just stretching. All right. Yeah. Okay. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's your
mobility and movement. Okay. It's, it's not yoga, but a lot of those, uh, you A
lot of that still stems with it, but I think where yoga defers is that
connection of breath to , there's other limbs than just the physical aspect.

Um, but I didn't discover that till later in the piece. And
even with breathing, I started with breathing first, which is like a little bit
along the track, , with yoga, you know?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. It's amazing though, isn't
it? Like once you start getting into it.

Andy Fermo:

Oh yeah. And very transformative
as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, and spirits like I'm not a
spiritual person. I'm not a religious person. Sorry, I should say, but, , the
spiritual side of things that just pop up along the way, you know, during your
practices, it's, it, I find it quite amazing.

Andy Fermo:

Absolutely. And I think, you know,
that's the whole thing about when, when people say there's the spiritual
experience and , I'll speak to that because you just mentioned it, you know, I
was never a spiritual person. And, and, , as a kid growing up, I'm not really
that overly religious at all, really, , just to tell you the truth, and some
people are and some people aren't.

For me, I just didn't, I just didn't, I didn't really sort of
buy into that sort of, um, the dog, the whole, the whole thing. So for me, it
didn't really work. As a kid, we were exposed to it quite often. Um, Uh, but
you know, and that's fine, but I made that active choice. But when I started
doing the paddle boarding, I, I signed up for this thing called the Molokai
Tohu.

You know, that was that first bit of growth, and that was the
real first time I experie experienced anything that was spiritual in that sort
of nature. Because I, when you do this, it's in, well. The race, I'll back,
backtracks it. The race is an inter, inter Island race in Hawaii that covers
the Kaiwi channel or channel the bones second deepest trench in the world.

And there was some really crazy weather and big waves that are
going in and this race for paddle craft or boat, you know, sort of paddle
crafts, , boats, Boards, foils, all this stuff, OC1s, canoes, is that you do
this big downwinder and you go, it's an inter island race. It's 32 miles or 50,
50 plus kilometers across this channel.

And before you do the race, They sort of get everyone, all the
participants , in a big pool out, they call it a big circle and they get you to
lift a rock and say this rock here, , this is a token or your shell, throw it
into the ocean and pray for something that's good. And, you know, let's just,
let's, when you, , when we say pray, it's not in a religious way, but this is
just to pray for each other that we have a safe crossing.

But this energy, there was this energy that I couldn't explain
that gave me this. Feeling that I was going to be safe, right? Or something
there, , I couldn't explain. So that was that spiritual experience. And then
when you do this, um, Big, big ass feet, whether it's running a marathon or
something like that, when you complete it, that's another experience there,
that's a spiritual experience because it releases all in these endorphins.

You've, you've achieved something and there's something there's
unexplainable that you, . That you experience as well. So that was that, that
bit of the spirituality now that, , I've found with, with doing these other
wellness practices that it gives you, , and it helps you be a little bit more
grounded in the way that you think about things.

You know, it's about accepting the things that aren't
explainable in a way, you know, but you know, that they work.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah,
that sounds like an amazing experience in Hawaii to do that.

Andy Fermo:

Oh, there's cool.

Rosie Skene:

So from those first months, I
guess, of your breathwork practice and practicing with Shane and the team.

Wim Hof. 'cause he's in Noosa, isn't he?

Andy Fermo:

No, no. We, we Wims he's, he's a
Dutch dude, so he, he comes to a, he used to come to Australia quite a lot.

Yeah, right. Um, when

Andy Fermo:

they were sort of plugging his
method. Um, and then Shane and Angie work, work with him on a lot of the stuff.
But now he's got a lot of affiliates now, so I don't think he comes to
Australia as March, but he is got a lot of people that are trained up in his.

Style that'll host events and retreats. Now that's why it's
just besides him. And there's other people with, with the breath work now that
are just doing a lot of the, um, those modalities, which is great because
people see the vision in it. But when, um, when I first started a few years ago
and it was really still quite new to that, to that space.

Um, Yeah, that is just, you just do the breath work at home.
You do it by yourself. And that's what I found for me was really empowering. I
didn't need anyone to lead me through it. Yes. It's great that someone can do
the bigger sessions, but I actually had to have self discipline to have those,
um, aha moments and all those other, gain those insights and, you know, have
those emotional releases, um, that are associated with, with the breath work.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So where's it led you to
today? I know that you have, , your charity Invisible Injuries, how has that
come about?

Andy Fermo:

Uh, Invisible Injuries was a great
question, , was born out of our own personal situation and lived experience.
So, um, you know, they all kind of work in hand, they've been working in
parallel with each other, Rosie.

But when we moved to, , to Noosa, as beautiful as it was, we
were making things work. But one of the things was as well is, uh, when I did
finally find, , specialist care, it was there, but I didn't really utilize it
probably as much as I did because, , we tried to secure a home and, and, uh, at
that sort of particular point in time, they just announced, , the Royal
commission.

So we'd secured this home. We're like, Oh fuck. Now we've got
to try and get this loan, but everything kept on changing so quickly. So. Some
unforeseen circumstances had happened where we'd secure this home, uh, and we
had to change what we were doing so many times. So the focus was to try and
just make ends meet to try and hopefully secure this home that we were hoping
to do.

But what happened is in the end, we couldn't secure it. And,
and, and I was neglecting all my Self care, even the breathing, because I was
just so tunnel focused on, on this work that, um, I, I pretty much dug myself
into this hole where I was really externally is like this internally. I was
falling apart and just, it was.

I was probably at that worst stage that I was ever in, , even I
was, they were fleeting, , I think if, if I didn't acknowledge that there would
have been some suicidal, , ideologies that had been come and go, , there was
these things, but then there was like, , trying to find, um, support when it
wasn't there, it just went all downhill and, , and then I found myself in the
spot.

So really the only thing that was there. Was the breathing that
I was doing from Shane. So I'd sort of put aside. Then I really started hooking
into that because that's what I could do at that time that was there for me. ,
But then we lost this home and we were camping and in this bad spot with only
really breathing to hook into.

And, , it was at that time from our own lived experience, we
were camping not by choice at the back of a place called Cookeven in the
hinterland of the Sunshine Coast. Homeless because we'd been kicked out of the
house , and, you know, when we were going to go back, it was this for sale sign
in, , all of our shit was out and we had to pretty much do a pre pack.

So we were homeless camping in, , in Kilkeven and that's when
my wife was, , I think we just need to run away. And I said, I'm not a runner,
darling, where I'm a fighter, you know, I used to be, , the top of my game in
the military , and, uh, I'd rather have a fight than, then deal with it, then,
then run away.

I'm not a runner. And anyway, so she's like, well, you know,
how to navigate your way. Why don't we document your. Your story and then
document how we could go about trying to find some ex services organizations to
sort of, then, you know, you're not socially isolated, um, as well as find your
specialists and then do all this self care and then maybe let's go and see what
other people are doing.

So that's the, that was the podcast piece. , and then maybe
we'll do a tour around that and see what's actually happening. Cause at the
time there was all these calls for veteran royal commission into suicide. And
so we're like, okay, well let's do this. And as I dug down deeper, it's like,
well, how do I do this?

You know, how do I find something that works for me? I want to
do mental health. I don't want to just be like the volunteer. Amazing
organizations there, but I'm not in that capacity to volunteer for another
organization yet. I just need to, That'll work for us. So that was the birth of
invisible injuries where the first port of call was to really just set up the
podcast, to be able to share my story and other people's stories, because, ,
I'm not a clinician and I never professed to be, I mean, I've done a lot of
studies into it now and qualified in certain bits, but that's not where.

You know, I'm not a clinician, I like to share my lived
experience and that's where we are with Invisible Injuries is finding out how
this is lived experience. This is our guests lived experience or people that
are in the organization. This is how we could go in and we tie in through
collaborative efforts with other organizations that provide those services.

So, um, that was where Invisible Injuries came around. , but
also it was more about, okay, well, how do I find now? I found, discovered
breathing and then I discovered the mindfulness and for me, I resonated with
those things when we were on tour and, and, uh, COVID had happened. I started
looking into the yoga, you know, I was like, Oh, Tabata, Tabata men's yoga
challenge.

I'm like, well, blokes don't do yoga. That's why I've been
calling it stretching. Right. And then as I've dived deeper, I'm like, actually
there's some real, This is some serious shit with some dudes that are really,
you know, one flexible, but they don't only just do this, they, they work out,
they do these other bits.

I'm like, okay, well, this is plausible. But then for me, I
just didn't, I still had the stigma. So I'm like, I called it yoga in the dark
for many years, even till pretty much, um, you know, uh, this, this signal came
down again and said, you need to become a yoga teacher. So I was discovering
this stuff, breath work.

Um, you know, it was shared to me by someone that's a veteran
on, you know, I, I really trust what they're doing and I'm seeing the benefits
that it's having for even people in the first responder community and people
outside the community, I'm like, well, this could really help with some mental
health stuff or physical stuff.

So how am I going to implement that into it now? , there's
other people that are in the fitness industry. I can, I like my fitness, but
that's not what I want to teach. And so I'm like, well, I'm discovering this
for me. It works for me and my, , my injuries. I can still work out, but I need
to do something now.

Like, I'm not just, I can't be doing just workouts five days,
six days a week because my body's not going to handle that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy Fermo:

Um, plus the work that I was
doing. So I'm like, okay, how do I do this? So I started discovering this, the
yoga, and then as I'm like, I really enjoyed this, I've got the breathing
aspects, I've got these other limbs, they call it, for the audience that are
out there, they know the eight limbs of yoga really contain a lot of other
things.

Um, That you can start practicing on and off the mat besides
the, , the thoughts and I, and that for me resonated a lot more in the, on that
spiritual side, because it wasn't really overly religious, but I'm like, okay,
if I live my life this way, or have these values already had these values, but
I'm like, I can implement these values.

Implementing it into something that I actually connect with a
little bit more. And that's why I'm like, , I know it works. So that's why I
want to be able to impart those bits in. It's not about preaching the
spirituality of those other limbs. They inherently come down the track, but I
see now teaching the wellness methods is that there's aspects of each type of
method that really have benefit and transformational effects for our, for the
people that I'm helping.

You know, Rosie. So that's where, , why I find it really
important and so, um, fulfilling to be able to do that. Even then the times,
like we chatted about before the call that, You think, Oh, what the fuck am I
doing this for? But , there's a light to the end of the tunnel in terms of the
transformative effect and benefits that it can have.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, it really is. And I know,
you know, and I know personally how transformative those practices can be, and
we're both living proof of that. , and to know, like, I know now that you're
working with RSL active over there, , Are you getting some good results through
that as well?

Andy Fermo:

Oh, some amazing, you know, look,
it started off, it started off slow.

Um, and, uh, but now it's sort of picked up and it's, it's
close to where I am now. So I think that we've, we've sort of. We, we, we split
test the timing and the people that are coming. So I've got, I've got a couple
of guys that, , a couple that started off with the first beginner course and
they've continued on and then stuck with it, , in the middle of the summer heat
under the shade of a tree in the middle of the CBD, , which was a great area to
do it to where we are now, um, working underneath our local sub branch was very
proactive in being able to support.

Services organization. I'm part of the sub branch, but you
know, they're there. The guys are coming down and the girls, , and everyone's
carrying some sort of injury or even a mental health thing. Um, from what, uh,
to what level, you know, uh, we, we don't go into too much cause they've got
their own, but what I've noticed is the shift.

In flex in the mobility and flexibility, , and even mindset
incorporating other things, elements into it. So they've come so far now, and
I'm really proud of, and hopefully someone does listen from, from our chat. ,
that's part of our audience, , to this, because it's just really fulfilling to
see them.

They're moving better. Now we're up to this stage, Rosie, where
I'm doing things that are flows, , so now everyone knows their modification and
teaching beginners is, it's very difficult, you know, because everyone's, and
then especially when they're carrying Being trauma informed and also being, ,
physically injury aware and making modifications is a big one.

And so when you go to, like, if you have your own practice or
have a, go to a studio for regular practice, lots of people have been
practicing for a while. So it can be, but when you've got abs, the beginners
and you see that transformative change where they're going, Oh, they're coming
regularly. They're enjoying it.

You know, um, and you see them getting stronger and more
flexible. That's just really rewarding.

Rosie Skene:

Can I just ask you one question?
These, the people that you have in your classes, you've now formed that
community as well. Yeah. And like, I don't know what stages they're at or
anything like that, but for people that are dealing with a mental illness and
even physical injuries, like we've talked about, Talked about, it can be so
isolating, , and it can feel really alone.

So I can only even imagine like the flexibility aside and all
the other benefits that they're getting from it. Having a little sense of
community can be so empowering.

Andy Fermo:

Oh yeah. Oh, it totally is. And
you know, we have a good, we have a good bit of banter there and if there's
someone new. So what I like about it is that people are slowly getting to know
each other, whether they're part of the sub branch, because it's not just
external.

Inclusive of our one sub branch. It's, it's RSLWA is if you're
in the area and can make it, so this is the, this area I'd like to be able to
go to several others, but it's just about delivering what we say we're going to
deliver well first in this community. You know, we've got some, we've got
members that are coming in from different, um, other RSL sub branches as well.

And seeing that transformative effect, , and making the effort
to come down. So that's the thing is that once people are actually making an
effort to come down. And they're feeling welcome and safe in the space. Um,
they go, Oh shit, actually, I was really nervous about coming down here, but
you did this flow and queued it in a way that I can understand the language.

Um, you offered modifications for, for my, um, situation,, and,
and you know, it didn't make, you know what I mean? So then, then there's these
questions. I'll record it, then I'll post it afterwards. It's like, if you've
got any insights, hit me up afterwards. Um, as you would in, in any yoga, um,
guidance.

But it's like, you know, they ask these questions and then they
go back and do it, which is great, you know? Um. Uh, and then also they've got
that resource of the, um, of the, the online platform as well. Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. That's amazing. You're
doing such great things over there. How are you going now? Like, are you at,
have you created this base for yourself where you're able to go and do your
yoga classes and run your charity and your podcast?

But also keep on top of things as well as to not overwhelm
yourself. Do you reckon you've got that dialed in now?

Andy Fermo:

At this particular point in time,
Rosie, I think I do. I think I've got it dialed in now that when I'm doing
stuff that gives me purpose and I can still sustain, , sustain a living. So
I've got a couple of, you know, I do DJing as well on the side as, as having
my, , gold card and, and sort of like a bit of a defense pension as well.

Um, but I, and my collaboration efforts, and then I'm open with
this because people sometimes go, Oh, how the fuck do you make the money to be
able to do this? And I think now for me, I've, I don't have, I'm not the type
of person there that can be just stuck to a nine to five same job. So that's
part of. My personality is the different compartments and interests.

So now, if it gives me, if it gives me, um, you know, I want to
be able to help people and have that civic duty, um, But still do some stuff.
That's where the yoga and the charity work comes in, you know, and now , got to
be grateful that, , we're monetizing some stuff and that's part of it, ,
because as much as you want to try and offer it for free, , it's not free to
everyone.

And that's something that I want to share with the audience.
And Sarah is that there's some at the end of the day, someone's got to pay
something somewhere, whether it's your time or whether it's these things. And,
that's where I've got to mention where, um, I'm just going to do a quick plug.
If that's all right, where, you know, sort of where a partner charity of, of, ,
of an organization, it's a, , for profit with purpose organization called
classics for a cause.

And so we're one of their. Charities that they donate money to
so then we can provide our offerings as well besides the stuff with RSL active,
right? So we're a provider of services and in this case is the wellness. Space
of doing some stuff and , look, you're not in the here to do make a screen box,
but at the same time, it also needs to, , I need to put food on the table for
my family, which is, um, which is, if you can't help.

Like they said, if you can't help stuff there and how can you
help anyone else? And I think that runs true from all that first. So that's one
of the things there , and in, in the best interests of transparency. But, um,
yep. So we work with other organizations and we, we've got that going on,
Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Amazing. Andy, it's been
such a joy to talk to you and hear your story and like, just how you've moved
through being in the defense force at such an elite level, , and your
deployments and losing some friends, , and then coming out of that and navigating.
your life, really. It's not just your mental health, but your whole life with a
wife and children.

, and to be where you are now giving back to the community,
because that's what you're doing. And personally, like I found you through your
podcast and the title Invisible Injuries got to me straight away before I even
listened to the first episode, because that's what it is. PTSD or any mental
illnesses, you know, If you break your arm or a leg and people can see that
you're broken, but with a mental health injury, it's, it's really tough and I
think you're just doing amazing things and I really want to thank you for that
because it was really, it's inspired me to start what I'm doing and , my yoga
and everything like that.

I really resonate with a lot of the things that you're doing. I
think we're both on very parallel paths, but I really want to thank you for
coming on and sharing all of your stories with my listeners. Um, and I know
they're going to get so much out of it. If there's one thing that you could
leave us with today for people that might be having a tough time and are
struggling to navigate.

Their mental health, do you have any, anything that you could
say to them to help them along a little bit?

Andy Fermo:

Yeah, absolutely. The there's,
there's a, there's a few things and thank you for asking me that question. So,
um, to, to, to those people in your audience for your audience, something that
I'd like to share is that it is, it is, it's hard and you, and you, and it is
painful.

Um, but when you take those steps in whatever way looks, so
I'll reframe it. The steps that you take. Is, is for you. So not comparing up
with the Joneses and doing so, whatever steps you take for you to improve your
own situation, it's about you and what works for you in your situation. Um, it
may take you several, , goes to find someone that you connect with from, if,
from a, um, uh, from a specialist standpoint, but that's not the only way to be
able to get help.

So if you're seeking help and you're finding something is take
those stories. If there's something that you connect with someone. , Say in
Rosie's podcast, right? That you go, Hey, we'll look, I can take these nuggets.
You can then take what it is that you like from that and implement it in your
own way, in your own, in your own thing.

Right. And if you're seeing the benefit of it, um, then who's,
You know, who gives a shit about what, what, what, um, you know, Joe blogs next
to you with the Joneses are doing, because it's for , your own growth. And it
does take time. So these things all take time , and they only get easier, you
know, take the small steps and things will come in easier.

It makes it easier as you've learned to flex that muscle, you
know? So whether you're, , rehabilitating physically or mentally, the more you
flex that muscle and actually deal with things. It's what is it may has a
massive transformational effect starting off small, um, and doing things in
small chunks will lead to bigger things, that's one thing and consistency is
one.

So if you say you don't have enough time, then just do 1 minute
a day. So 1 minute consistently or whatever it is, , consistently. Um, is
better than just only once a week for a longer period. So , you're just, you're
setting habits and, , yeah, you're not alone. So that's the thing is that this
whole mentality, one, I'm going to speak to the, , if there's services out
there and you're saying someone else needs it more than me, , then that is, is
the total incorrect way to think about it.

If, if you were genuine about going to go and see something and
you need it, then go and get it right. It's, you know, you can. You can quickly
discern who's bullshitting or not, if they've got a different ulterior motive
to be able to do something. But that's them, right? It's not you. So if you
need help and you need to go and reach out for it and go and at least Explore
the option and whether or not, , it's for you or not remains, you know, that's
a decision for you.

And then lastly, , yeah, just, uh, immediate support that that
is massive, , immediate support or finding, , your people that you can connect
with. You don't even need to talk about mental health, but just that reduction
in socialize, , in social isolation. Yeah. You know what I mean? Is, uh, is, is
massive, right?

So, um, Yeah, there was more than one there, but I thought, you
know, that's just the opportunity to share it with the audience. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Great. Thank you so much. And I
totally, I'm like the social isolation thing. I think a lot of us, , defends
and first responders and, we seem to do that a lot because I don't know.

I don't know if we're a little bit embarrassed or we don't
think that people understand what we're going through or basically we just
don't want to talk about it or acknowledge it. Um, it's a big thing. So, yeah,
if you can, even your close networks and like you said, you don't even have to
talk about what's going on, but just be with other people.

So important.

Andy Fermo:

Oh, that's right. Well, there's an
example of that. So just quickly. . So there's a program and there's a few,
there's a few of the boys that I know. Right. So it's like for forging. Right.
So they go in and they make these old files. And, , there's a lot of first
responders that are going in as well because you go in.

Um, and it's not about talking about Kumbaya. If you feel
comfortable to do that, that's fine. Everyone's there and they're together and
they bash the shit out of these, these old files and repurpose them and make
beautiful. Um, pieces of artwork of like the knives, they make real knives,
real usable knives, but they're, you know, being there is a great mental
health, , benefit there as well.

So if you find an activity with people that you could go do
stuff, you don't actually need to talk about your trauma, you're actually
healing, having post traumatic growth through going through something there
with someone with a, , a like minded, , interest. Yeah.

[01:39:12]

Rosie Skene:

Wow. That's so cool. I didn't
know about that one.

There's so many people doing good things.

Andy Fermo:

Yes. And so are you, Rosie. So I
wanted to be able to say thank you for all the work that you're doing, uh, and
for your community as well, um, over there on, on the East coast. And, um, I
look forward to being able to collaborate with you again.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. Thank you so much.

And everything that you've mentioned, especially with invisible
injuries and you work with, , RSL active over there. I'm going to link to all
of that in the show notes and people can find you, you, uh, on Facebook. you're
on Instagram as well.

Andy Fermo:

Yeah. Facebook and Instagram and
then, , our website. But if I can also ask if, you know, we do have a YouTube
channel.

Um, one of the things that I am trying to do if you're in the
audience and you want some, , some exposure to some of the yoga that we're
doing as well at the moment is, , Yeah, hit us up on the YouTube, hit the
subscribe. And then once I've got 50, I'll be able to, um, you know, hopefully
stream live as well.

So that's what I'm looking at. I don't have heaps of followers,
but if you, if you, if you build it, they'll come. I'm confident of that.

Rosie Skene:

I believe so too. And we'll get
you there and we'll get you to 50. Um, yeah, I'll link to that as well in the
show notes and everyone can go and have a look at what you're up to over there,
but.

Thank you so, so much. I really, really appreciate your time. I
know it's a bit of a long one today, but, , it's so valuable. So thank you.

[01:40:34]

Andy Fermo:

Thanks, Rosie. Thanks for having
me.

OUTRO:

I hope you've enjoyed today's
episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss any new
ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while you're there, take a
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inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.