Rosie Skene:

Hello, and welcome to Episode 15 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. This
week is Men's Mental Health Week. Men's mental health is something that I am
incredibly passionate about. And there are a few reasons for that. Of course, I
have a husband and two sons. Um, my inner circle of friends are mostly male.
And I've always worked in industries that, have you heavily populated by males?

I know that men are more likely to not seek help for their
mental illness due to stigma or whatever else may prevent that help seeking.
But most importantly, men are around three times more likely than females to
die by suicide with 75.6% of all people to die by suicide in Australia in 2022.
Being men. 24.4% being female. These statistics, sadly are not just numbers.

They are humans. They are fathers. They are sons, husbands,
boyfriends, uncles, and grandfathers, and they are friends. According to beyond
blue research, there is about one first responder, every six weeks that dies by
suicide. But sadly, I think that it may be a little bit higher than that now.

This men's mental health week. I want to encourage you to
either go and seek help for anything that may be troubling you, whether you are
male or female, it does not matter. Seek helping those early stages. So it
doesn't progress to the point where thoughts of suicide. Seemed like your only
option. Or reach out to your male friends, even the ones who seem to have it
all going on.

Okay. Because you just never know. So send a text, make the
phone call, meet up for a coffee. Just be a good friend.

Next week is launch week for the first responder mental
wellness method. Get on the wait list for early entry at
tacticalyogaaustralia.com/waitlist. And as I mentioned in last week's episode,
I am hosting a free. Three day. Tactical mind, body mastery. So if you've had
the hype of breathwork yoga and mindfulness for mental health, and you want to
give it a go, come along and join me on June 18, 19 and 20. It's just 45
minutes each day, as we move through each of these practices. It's going to be
very relaxed and hopefully a bit of fun. And you can join me there at
tacticalyogaaustralia.com/mindbody

this week's guest is Sean Haran I've come to know Sean through
the charity, Beyond The Badge. I attended their two day training a couple of
weeks ago in Coffs Harbour and it was amazing. Sean along with co-founder
Simon, Bradstock hosted the two day event at the cost hub Ex- Services Club and
Park Beach Bowling Club the training was really eye opening and very well put
together.

If there are any first responders out there who are looking to
get back into the workforce. But aren't too sure where to start. I highly
recommend and actually encourage you to take a look at Beyond The Badge and
take part in their program. Definitely well worth your time.

Uh, and there were no role-plays for those like me who hate
that stuff. I'll link to these guys in the show notes.

Now Sean has over 30 years experience in law enforcement,
corporate security, risk management, learning, and development. Uh,
international air express and logistics. Sean started his career with the West
Australia Police serving in operational roles in general duties, the tactical
response group, special weapons, emergency selection and weapons training
section.

Upon moving to Sydney, he was involved in several consultancies
providing high risk training programs to both commercial and government
clients. During this time, Sean set up his own company and was responsible for
the planning. Banning and delivering of the protective security operation for
the 1996 and 2000 Olympic and Commonwealth games. Welcome home parades.

Sean entered the Air Express industry in 2000 and subsequently
spend the next 10 years with DHL, with responsibility for security in the
Oceana region. He was responsible for policy development, risk management,
security and investigations for over 30 facilities and approximately 2000 staff
within Australia, New Zealand. Papa new Guinea, Fiji and the Pacific islands.
During this time, he was a member of several key industry government committees
on aviation and cargo security and a paid before parliamentary committees.
We're reviewing aviation security in Australia. He was also the former
chairperson. He was also the former chairman of the security subcommittee for
the conference of Asia Pacific express carriers. He has worked with other
global companies as part of his consultancy. Sean holds tertiary qualifications
and security, risk management, work, health and safety, government
investigations and training and assessment. Since 2018, Sean has been involved
in providing career transition services for first responders. Specifically NSW
Police through the charity, beyond the badge.

Which he set up with his mate and business partner, Simon
Bradstock he's passionate about ensuring first responders. are looked after
once they leave their agencies after their service.. So with all that said,
let's get into it.

Rosie Skene:

Welcome
to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter future.
Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly
reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Welcome to the podcast, Sean. Thank you so much for joining me.

Sean Haran:

Very
excited to be here. Thank you.

Rosie Skene:

So Sean,
usually I start the podcast with just a little bit of your backstory, um, and
how you've come to be where you are today with Beyond the Badge.

Sean Haran:

Okay. So
I joined the West Australian police force in April 1978 and, uh, I had 15 years
service in WA.

Loved every minute of it. Um, well, mostly. And, um, I ended
up, , fortunately in the WA Police TRG, the tactical team, which was formed
full time in 1978, which was actually formed in 1985.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
okay.

Sean Haran:

Um, and,
uh, you know, I really enjoyed the work and I, I think I found myself, um, I
wanted to sort of join the military some, some time ago. So for me, it was like
the, the answer to that. And I did actually have, uh, six years. in the army
reserve. , In 1992, I, um, I left the police.

I didn't know I had PTSD, but it was diagnosed some years
later, but I had a number of incidents that had occurred and I made a decision
to leave. And, , I moved from Perth to Sydney. I was having a long distance
relationship at the time. Uh, unfortunately, , Julie's still, um, time, which
has been amazing.

so I moved over here in July, 1992. I was 34 years of age. I
felt good in myself. I didn't have any particular issues other than I was angry
with what had happened to me and why I left the cops. Um, and then the
proceedings of 12 months, my, my work life kind of fell apart because I had
nothing. I had no one to go to, to talk to.

I didn't know how to apply for a job. I didn't even know what
sort of job I might do. I think I sort of came over here on spec a little bit
early. I found out later I had ADHD as well as PTSD and I think that hasn't
helped in terms of decision making. So I landed here, Julie was busy. She was
nursing and going to work early, coming home reasonably late.

And I was really lost for about 12 months. I thought about
going back and I made a mistake. , I actually went to apply for the DoLE up in
Sutherland. And, , I remember sitting there and having an interview and filling
out some forms and the lady asked me if I had a particular form that could be
used.

It's shown that I had exited the cops in WI and I didn't have
it. Um, and just to short circuit things, I made a phone call and I rang staff
office in Perth and the guy who answered the phone, I had worked under, he was
an inspector. And, , when I asked him, you know, told him what I was doing, he
said to me, what the fuck are you doing?

That's what he said to me. And, , it just shocked me. And I
realized that. I was in a, I was in a bad way at that time and a week or so
later, I just reached out to someone that I've met on a national exercise who
was in the cops here in New South Wales and also ran a small training business
and I reached out to him and he, he said, do you want a couple of days work a
week?

And I started off from there and I realized really quickly like
within weeks that I, , you know, what, what I'd be missing was, , that I wasn't
using the skills I had. And I realized that even though I didn't want to go
back to policing. I realized that I had some enormous skills that I should be
using.

And over the preceding, , over the next 12 months or so, uh,
him and I, , you know, put together a business and I was running out of an
office in Wallara in Sydney and had these fancy, fancy business cards that, uh,
you know, said national training manager, national sales manager, and I was
selling training.

I was making cold calls and I was having the time of my life
and I, I was enjoying what I was doing again. I was running, armed robbery
training. Um, got involved with some, , Australian Protective Services running
counter terrorist first response training, all this kind of stuff, which for me
was, you know, business as usual, but in a different world and I found my feet,
um, and, you know, to cut a long story short, , I also had some, uh, issues
with, with starting a family, I felt a complete failure.

I ended up, Julie and I ended up fostering, , Two beautiful
little girls and then finally adopting them after 10 years. And you know, those
two beautiful girls are now in their mid twenties and doing incredibly well.
So, , it all came together after time and I've talked along for the last 25
years or so working in the corporate world, , work for some great companies and
work for myself and done some great things.

Uh, and again, all from, you know, a senior customer leaving
the cops with what I thought was, was not a lot in terms of skills. Uh, to, to,
to have done some great things, worked with some great companies. And I
finished up, , my last big role was with Australia Post or Star Trek, Australia
Post, , seven, maybe six or seven years back.

And I'd sort of had enough then, , of working in the corporate
space. And, , I started doing a bit of consulting again and Simon Bradstock,
who had been, become a close mate of mine, who was a former New South Wales
police officer, , approached me and said, look, He'd lost a very close mate of
his, Cole Young, to suicide, , who had struggled outside the job.

And, uh, he'd, he'd approached Police Legacy about what more we
could do. So we put our heads together and, and we ended up putting into this
program, um, and setting up Beyond the Badge, which is a not for profit
charity. And, , through Police Legacy and Back Up for Life program, and Esther
Mackay in 2018, we, we kicked off this program.

We've been doing it now for six years. And we've put Over 300,
, people through the program, mainly New South Wales Police, but we now do an
online program, so we've been able to reach, , people from all states and all
jurisdictions, uh, federal police, paramedics, uh, a few fireys, uh, corrective
services, so we've, we've, we've put our failures out a lot further, uh, and
it's been, it's been such a wonderful thing for our own mental health too, it's
given us a reason to dig it up every day and, and, and give back, it's And we
know that we've helped, , you know, not everyone's got a job, not everyone's
been ready to get a job, but the bulk of people who've come through the program
have just got reinvigorated.

And I think the biggest thing that we've realised too is that
it's not just about getting jobs, it's, it's, you know, this, I like to refer
to it as a, as a sort of mental health carousel. People get on it and they go
round and round and, Some people don't get off, you know, , and I think what we
try and do is reach out and for those who are ready, grab their hand and say,
Hey, there is a way out of this and there's a way forward.

And I think, you know, we're not a, we're not a mental health
program and not psychologists by any means, but, , it's been really clear that,
you know, we've got evidence to prove it now and to show that, , people's just
general wellbeing and their family's wellbeing, uh, are benefited by coming on
the program and moving on and just understanding there is life.

After policing and after the trauma and after the PTSD and I
think it's, , it's been a really positive thing for so many people. And look,
we've had, we've had a handful of come up and said, guys, you've, you've
basically saved my life. You know, that's pretty powerful stuff because it's
given them a reason to live and keep going and find that, , there is hope.

the life after policing, and that's been really important. I

Rosie Skene:

think, ,
obviously taking part in the program today, day one of two, and even I've seen,
uh, within the room, people's attitudes, um, have changed. Not that there was
any bad attitudes, but the confidence was obviously a bit higher at the end of
the day than what it was at the start.

I would even say my own, um, confidence, just with our skill
set that we don't even realise that we have. And, um, And you keep that, it
doesn't go anywhere when you leave a job like the police. Um, is that what you
see a lot as well?

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
it's a great pick up and I think, you know, one of the most exciting things, I
actually said to Simon yesterday, do you ever get sick of running the programs?

Um, and, and, you know, our answer, both of us, the answer is
simply no, because every group's different and it's that, and I think I even
said it this morning, it's that, um, light bulb moments that you, you, you look
around the room and you see people when they come in. And I, and you know, one
of the things we do is talk to people before they come on the program, sort of
bit of a get to know, um, and you know, people are a bit anxious when they turn
up and you look around the room and people aren't sure what's going to happen
and, but within, you know, generally by morning tea time, you see a massive
difference in people's demeanor, um, and confidence.

And I think people just start to go, wow, you know, if these
guys have done it. We've seen some examples. We hear from some of our
supporters and sponsors and, um, they start to go, Wow, I think I could do
this. And it's a, it's a real awakening and it's exciting to see every time.
And then by the end of day two, and then, you know, I follow up with day three.

It's, you know, we talk about the Beyond the Badge family now
and people, every time we have a program, it's another group that join the
family and, and it's, , It's very rewarding for us, but yeah, to see people's
awakening and walk away on day two and say, thanks for what you've done and
just know they've got that confidence and they can look a bit better into the
future and understand that, , you know, there is a life out there for them.

They can come back to us when they need a bit more help to move
on. We make that offer too, we're always here for people. , and we're happy to
follow up and help. And it's, yeah, it's been a fantastic thing to do. Uh, I do
want to mention too the, the, we're doing this today at Club X in Coffs
Harbour.

And I want to give the clubs a plug because but for them we
wouldn't be here. We, we had some initial funding through Backup for Life and
that. that disappeared about three and a half years ago. So, um, the clubs have
been fantastic to us and they support and sponsor the program. So, and we
always have people from the club.

We had two wonderful people coming along today, uh, to talk
about, uh, how the club works and why they support the program. And, um, and I
bring some, you know, fantastic, , uplifting, I suppose, news about how
recruitment really works and, uh, you know, make it a bit more, achievable for
people in the program. So, um, yeah, big thanks to the club, club X today.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. And we've got Park Beach Bowling Club tomorrow.

Sean Haran:

Park
Beach Bowling Club tomorrow. Can't wait.

Rosie Skene:

, I
think something that I personally have struggled with since leaving the police
and it's skills based as well, but having the confidence to even think about
having another job as a person with PTSD and anxiety and depression and, and,
um, Uh, seasonal affective disorder.

I've got four mental health, uh, conditions, but the capacity
that I might have to not only create a resume and apply for a job and maybe
even get a phone call or an interview and go through that whole process and
then eventually having a job and then having to go to work after being off work
for a few years.

Um, But something that Simon said today was, you know, there
are part time jobs out there and there are casual jobs that you can do. Is that
something that you see a lot of people struggling with, when they come through
your program?

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh, you know, we heard, we heard Jill this morning
from Club X, , talk about, you know, the direct question was asked about people
with, with mental health issues and been off work for a while.

How does the club and how would a employer see them? And her
response was so. you know, so refreshing and powerful that, , you know, at a
place like this, there's all different types of roles. They understand that not
everyone is has got superhuman sort of capabilities and wants to work, you
know, 50 hours a week.

They understand people have got issues, and I think it was
pretty clear they prefer to know what those issues were rather than not know.
And a lot of the clubs we talked to They say the same thing. They'd rather know
someone's got particular things going on in their lives. At least they could
work around that.

And what they're really interested in is what you can bring, ,
not those other bits and pieces that are part of you, but what you can bring.
And if that means that you can come and give, you know, three days a week, ,
and that's enough for you, that's great for them. As long as I understand, and
they can help and support you with your You know, with the other things going
on in your life.

So I think, yeah, it's a great point. And I think it's the,
it's probably one of the biggest things that, , former first responders worry
about is that I won't be able to work again. And we know that some are even
told that in there. In the process they go through medically that they get told
by certain people that you won't work again and that's frightening and we've
had those people on the program and they are working again in a different
capacity.

Um, and at the end of the day, there's some great companies out
there who, who didn't, they look, they look for the good in people. And, and
they, they're happy to, to work around the, the, the private issues that people
are having. So, um, that's important to know when you hear that from, you know,
people from the club and from a prospective employer that they're, they're
happy to look at your, your, yours, happy to look at you as a whole person and
what you can bring to them, if they can support you, it just makes a better
workplace for them.

So yeah, it's a big issue for people, but it, but it's, ,
absolutely. Something that, that, , can be overcome.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
really like that, , the two people from the club came and spoke to us today
because support is not always, it feels like it's a lot of lip service when
you're in a job like the police. Sure.

Um, they're not very supportive of families, the rostering's
not supportive of a home environment, that's really important. are conducive to
having a family, unfortunately, sometimes. Um, so it is nice to see that other
side because otherwise we wouldn't see that there are businesses and companies
that would support, uh, people like us.

Sean Haran:

Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

And I
think, you know, the other thing, , to bear in mind is that you don't have to
be looking for that huge executive, you know, six figure salary. Some, some
might, but, um, you know, our advice is to take the small steps and, you know,
Uh, find a company that's willing to accept you for who you are.

And you might just find that in 6 to 12 months, you've sort of
found your feet again. There's another opportunity, either within that
organisation or somewhere else. And you, you want to take another step up. It's
important, you know, we don't overwhelm ourselves initially. , because that,
that's pretty confronting.

But, uh, just to find your way and, you know, if you want to do
a couple of days a week at a Bunnings or something or, you know, that's fine
because you'll start to get the confidence back and start mixing with people
again. And look, we always say that you'll, you'll probably stand out a bit in
an organization because of your background and will be recognized for, you
know, being a doer and getting stuff done.

You know, you'll often get a tap on the shoulder. Hey, you
know. to, you know, have a look at this new role and we've even heard stories.
It's not uncommon for companies to build a new role around people because they
can see what you bring. Um, so, you know, there's, there's just so many
opportunities if you put yourself out there again with the small steps and get
some support and help through us and.

just start to take
those, take that journey one step at a time.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So
important to, , what you said there about becoming overwhelmed because I think
the whole, like I said, the whole process can be overwhelming. So just
starting, uh, with what you think you can handle at the time and building from
there is really important.

Sean Haran:

Yeah. And
just on that too, I, I think, you know, I'm very conscious of when we do a
program that as, as much as we work hard and build that trust and, and, and,
Try not to overwhelm people. I know that people, you know, walk away after the
program and maybe a week later or a month later or six months later, um, start
to actually think about looking for a job.

And again, it's at that point, it can be overwhelming. It's
like a lot of courses you go and do at the time you think, wow, this is great.
Then it can be a break before you actually start the process. So we've been
very clear about contacting us again when you're ready. So we give you the
information, the tools, links, the connections, but.

You know, I got a lady rang me two weeks ago that did one of
their first programs in 2018. She hasn't been ready for all that time. She ran
me two weeks ago and said, Look, I know it's been a while, but I've got this
opportunity. Can you help me? And that was great just to reconnect. And we're
here to do that.

So, um, you know, we're pretty clear. We don't write resumes
for people. We think they can do that themselves with some guidance, but we're
happy to connect and look at Review resumes. Um, you know, we can help people
link in with organizations and even organize a coffee with various people to
see what industries might be like.

And there's a whole bunch of things that we can do as a
follower. , and I think just gives those people that, uh, you know, have that
little break before they're ready, , a touch point to come back and say, Hey,
you know, I met the guys, whatever, three years ago, I know they're still
there. I know if I make a phone call, they're going to help me, you know, move
on again.

So we don't just do the two or three days and sort of drop you
off. It's important that we, we maintain that relationship.

So we're here when you need us.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's amazing. I think, yeah, a lot of people would appreciate that for sure.

Sean Haran:
Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

So you
said that you , run your program online across the country.

Are you just traveling in person in New South Wales?

Sean Haran:

Yeah, at
the moment, , how it works with, with our funding and with the club. So we run
a program at the club. Uh, so we've got a number of clubs within Sydney where
we run the program. and yeah, we've been lucky enough to do some regional stuff
the last couple of years in Wagga, Albury, uh, central coast, Coffs.

And that's really important too, because we all know that
regional People miss out on a lot of things, , so we want to get out to, to the
regions. But, the online has been great. So, um, we generally run the online,
like day one, we'll, we'll go into a club that sponsors the program, , and
we'll have the guests as well from the club to talk and we'll do that online.

So we might sit in their boardroom and do that. So we might
have a CEO and a, you know, uh, an HR person, people person, , exactly what we
did today. So it's the same format. Yeah, we do that online. And then, um, you
know, basically day two is done from our own home office type set up and that's
how we do that.

So, and that's just been a great opportunity to reach so many
more people. Um, and there's, there's probably one that probably there is
people to who, who may not be from interstate, but aren't quite ready to come
and sit in a room for two days. We get that. So the online has been a great
forum for those people who, you know, like it's essentially sit at home in
their jammies and do the program online.

And that's been really good. So it's given us a lot more
coverage of, , not just other jurisdictions, but Those who are just not quite
confident enough to come and jump in a room with other, you know, first
responders for two days.

Rosie Skene:

How many
courses do you run a year?

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
that's a great question.

Um, again, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's been, we, we, you know,
we, we've been lucky enough to run pretty much a program a month. So we might,
we might have a break, you know, the way the funding cycle goes with club, who
might have a. So we'll have a regroup in June, which is just coming up to get
ourselves ready for the next sort of cycle.

So we generally kick off July, late July, early August, , and
generally go right through. So we, we do a program a month generally. And
again, that's a mix of online and, and face to face. Yeah. And look, those, you
know, we're, we're able to cater the face to face. Um, you know, we, we've had
numbers up to sort of 16, 20 is probably the max for face to face because
otherwise it just gets too big.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

online
obviously doesn't make that much difference. We can cater for, you know, three
or 30 sort of thing. Um, so that's a bit more flexible.

When you're running one
of these programs a month.

Sean Haran:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

,how do
you support your own mental health? With that because I can imagine that even
though you've been doing it for a few years now You're dealing with people that
have heightened levels of anxiety and stress and you have to make them feel
comfortable with you in a very quick amount of time like you said So, how do
you manage that within yourself and being away from your family when you
travel?

Is there certain things that you do to support your own health?

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
that's a great question. I, I, I think Simon and I, you know, I mean, I'm
getting on, I'm getting on a bit at age too, but Simon's 10 years younger than,
but we both, we both keep ourselves, we both keep ourselves fit. Um, and, and
you know, we, we talk a lot.

Rosie Skene:

Mm-Hmm,
,

Sean Haran:

We always
have a, a debrief after each program.

If it's in the city and we're driving, you know, to and from,
we're, we're always talking about. Uh, how we're going and discussing certain
people on the program, etc. But, , you know, we both have really good, ,
support networks at home as well. Wonderful partners that support us and, , I
think having that support network and, and, you know, the keeping fit, you
know, there's always been a big thing for both of us and, , getting harder as I
get older, but, but it's important.

I still train every morning. , Look, I could probably do a lot
more in terms of, um, meditation that, you know, that type of thing. I'm
probably a little bit old school myself in terms of what I do, but I feel, I
feel. The program itself gives me. gives me . , I don't, I don't find it
burdensome now helping other, helping these people.

It's, , in a way it gives me power. Um, if that makes sense. It
does. Yeah. , it fulfills me, you know, I look around a lot of things, you
know, and I've got two, Two beautiful daughters who had a real bad start in
life and, , in terms of fostering and their, their circumstance and, you know,
I look around me every day and I see these incredible charities and struggles
in life and I think, oh, , you could be doing a lot of things to help people
and, you know, you're trying to keep busy and I, but I refocus with all that
and I, and I just, um, I realized that the people that we're helping, , have, ,
Given so much, you know, they're not, they're not struggling.

They're not just, or they are struggling, but they're not,
they're not reaching out sort of for charity or for that. They've given, you
know, 40 years sometimes to the, to the community. And, um, you know, just the
idea of paying back and helping them move on as it gives me strength and I get,
I know it gives Simon strength and it, it lets us, um, pay homage to those who
we lost early on that made us kick this thing off.

I lost a very close mate of mine to shortly after, uh, Uh,
Simon's incident with, with, with his mate and, um, every time we deal with
someone and help them, I sort of, for me, it pays homage to, to those guys and
those who, who we have left behind. And that gives me strength and that helps
my mental health.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

So it's,
yeah, it's not something that, , it's a great question now, I think I'm
thinking deeper about it, but it's, , it's not something that, you know, I
know, I know often people that, , are involved with charities and, and the
people that are struggling, they get I get burned out and bogged down. I
haven't felt like that.

I felt, you know, in, in the five years we've been doing, this
is a six year. I felt it's given me, it's given me more strength. I feel better
probably about myself and when I started, because we, we, we're better at doing
it, we're getting better results. , You know, we're seeing more and more people
come on the program, younger people too often.

Yeah. So, so, , I think it strengthens me. Yeah. More than
anything.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
resonate with that. , I mean, I know myself that, you know, even having this
podcast and, and doing what I do with Tactical Yoga Australia and just trying
to give back, , it definitely fulfills me, but it can be exhausting. And that's
why I asked the question, cause I know that I really have to keep a check of my
own energy.

Um, and my husband keeps on top of me for that. So, um, he's,
he's good, tells me not to do too much, but it can get overwhelming and The joy
that you can get from helping other people shouldn't be at the detriment of
your own self.

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
look, maybe that's the other part. I think I've got a pretty good balance
because, um, this is essentially all I do now.

I might pick up a bit of consultancy work from time to time.
This is essentially what I do, but I don't, you know, I've had some big jobs
over the years and I've worked long hours and travelled a lot. I don't allow
myself to do that now.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

So my
days, my days are pretty balanced. You know, if we're not running a program,
there'll be days where I might talk to two or three people online.

They might be making inquiries about the program and I'll
always talk to them at the start, or it might be a follow up, checking a
resume, but it's not crazy, not crazy hours and crazy days. And I think that's
been a good thing. So I've got a good balance, I work, you know, work from
home. Um, I could go and jump in the pool and cool off in summer or that sort
of thing, or go for a walk or go and do something else.

So it's not, um, It's not, um, yeah, it's not crazy busy that
I've, that I sort of at the end of the day go, Oh my God, I can't do this
anymore. It's,

Rosie Skene:

yeah,

Sean Haran:

it's
manageable. And I think I've learned that over the years to, to manage my time
better and not burn myself out.

Rosie Skene:

Thank
you.

Sean Haran:

Skill in
itself. I think

Rosie Skene:

Something that I like, so I was a weapons and tactics trainer with New South
Wales police. And you did that as well, didn't you? And so did Simon. , and
something, I think I really found my feet there in the police because I joined
like a lot of people do. Like I just wanted to help people. I didn't know how I
was going to do that in the police, but that's what I wanted to do.

And I found that after I did that course and then I started
helping police keep themselves safe on the street. That was me. I was totally
happy to do that. Unfortunately it didn't work out long term and I had to
leave, but now it's what I'm doing now. Like my target audience is police
because I really.

Enjoy helping them help themselves. And now it's sort of not so
much physically keeping them safe, but mentally helping them through, uh,
whatever they're going through. Is that something that you found as well? Like
you've sort of come back after being in corporate for a long time and. Um, you
found that you still have that sort of mateship even with those people?

Sean Haran:

Most
definitely. You know, for me, I, I didn't just leave the cops. I left my home
state.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

Um, you
know, I grew up in Perth, came from, came from, um, 10 pound poms, came into,
came to Perth when I was seven and went back to England and Ireland when I was
10. , but yeah, I spent most of my life up to the early thirties in WA.

So when I'd come over to New South Wales, I left a lot of
things, not just my job and my career, but my family who was still there, my
friends, um, and I, for those first few days, I really. I didn't want to
connect, you know, like a lot of us, you don't want to connect with cops
anymore. , but I found, and probably more so through my work at DHL, I was the
Oceana security manager, started getting involved with, you know, the federal
police and, and, um, you know, fraud and theft matters and dealing with the
local police and detectives.

And I realized that I, I missed it, but I was able to be part
of it in a different way. And that was good. Um, you know, I think back now,
and one of the things that sticks in my mind was, um, cause, you know, the
listeners would understand that, , being a, being a large logistics company
doing international freight, that, you know, narcotics and what have you is
part of that unknowing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

Uh, part
of that sort of, and I, we were getting, The team were getting phone calls from
the AFP. Can we, can we have this? Can we have vehicles for, you know, covert
deliveries and things? And I kind of came on board and I, and I had the,
because I had the confidence and I was able to talk to these guys and not be,
confronted by them, I was able to say, no, no, we're not going to do that.

And it started to manage things. But so I built up some great
relationships with, with law enforcement agencies and got involved with, um,
uh, projects in Canberra around, you know, , uh, aviation security. And, you
know, that for me was, I was sort of back in the game. And it was, it wasn't,
it wasn't that excitement you get on a job or whatever, but it was, , it was
still feeling part of that, that big team again.

And then when we kick this off, , it really brought me back to,
you know, for me being a, a WA copper, you know, come to New South Wales, you
still get bagged and, you know, , But, um, I, for me, it's been, and I talk
about family, I feel, I feel like I'm back in the, in the blue family and it's
been this great acceptance.

You know, whether Simon's talking about his, his, uh, his work
here and the people he's worked with who we, who bump into every couple of
programs for me. It's like, I, it doesn't happen to me very often because, um,
, I come from another state, but I really feel part of that family again. And
now that's been good for my mental health.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sean Haran:

You know,
at the start you want to get away from it, but. Now I'm really enjoying being,
being back in it and being accepted for what? And it's been, it's been 30, 30
years, actually 32 years for me. You know, I've been out of the cops twice as
long as I was in.

Speaker 3:

Yeah,
yeah. I still feel
exactly the same.

You know, my, my, my girls still think of me as a, you know, as
a policeman and, um, I like that. Yeah. That's still part of who I am. I think
that's important too on the, the program that people don't leave that behind.
That they bring that, they bring all that stuff with them that they've got.
That's part of who we are.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
But you

Sean Haran:

sort of
reinvent it in a different way.

Rosie Skene:

I liked
it when you were, you both were talking about that today. Um, because I think
we do think that maybe it's not suited to a more corporate environment,
especially, um, maybe our sense of humor. We can turn that down a little bit,
but, um, yeah, like just knowing that our skills aren't, aren't going to be
wasted.

And the way that we carry ourselves will actually transfer into
some other environment. Yeah. I was really happy to hear that. Look,

Sean Haran:

often
you'll find, you know, again, I've been lucky to find workplaces where there
might be a number of X. X cops in there. So you do, you get back to that old
banter and, you know,

Rosie Skene:
acceptable levels

Sean Haran:

of banter
and humor, but, um, it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily disappear.

I think you find, you find your way back to those pockets where
you look, you know, things like LinkedIn and talking about networks. We'll talk
a bit more about it tomorrow, but, um, people will start to reach out and find
you and say, Hey, you know, looking for some, you know, someone to fill a role,
you know, let's catch up for a coffee.

And often they're people you worked with in the past and they
start to find you again. So, you know, I know it's a fear that you might be
right away from that and never have it again, but I've been lucky enough to
find that most of my 30, 30 ish years in the corporate world of, of gravitated
around law enforcement type things anyway.

So I haven't gone far from home.

Rosie Skene:

If
there's one thing that you would want to tell people that might be listening
and they've, Left the Police or they might be thinking about transitioning out
of the place and they're worried for whatever reason whatever Whatever things
hold them back like we did on the on the post its this morning What's one thing
that you would say to them that would give them hope that you know?

Maybe they should take a little step forward and

Sean Haran:

you know
I'll say a couple of things. Okay.

Rosie Skene:

You can
have a couple of things. If I'm allowed. You're allowed.

Sean Haran:

I think,
I think first of all, you know, Simon and I are great examples. Um, you know,
we, we both left the job as senior constables, which I still reckon is probably
the best rank in the job anyway.

Rosie Skene:

I agree.

Sean Haran:

Um, you
know, we weren't brain surgeons. We were, we were tactical operators and, um,
we've, we've done really well. , I think, I think the lesson people need to,
to, to think about or understand is that, , you've done a unique, unique job.
You know, don't ever think of yourself as just a cop. I know that's a cliche,
but it's a unique, unique job.

incredible opportunity that you've, you've undertaken and
whether it's two years, five years, 10, 20 years, it doesn't matter. It's
something that you've put your hand up to go and do you have to even go and do
it. You've got some inherent skills and some know how, but then to do it for a
period of time, you're going to pick up some incredible things that people in
the, in the real world or the other world will, will absolutely recognize.

You'll stand out because. You know, one of our, you saw the
video this morning, , Michelle Glasgow, who's, who's doing some great things
down in Wollongong, uh, general manager of a domestic violence organisation,
she, she put it beautifully by saying, you know, cops get shit done. And I
think that's the thing is that, You know, we talked to a lot of employees out
there and they keep saying we just can't find good people and there's an
untapped, I think there's a huge untapped resource of police and emergency
service people out there who, who, and this is the gap because many of them
don't believe in themselves.

Many employers haven't discovered this market yet. So we, you
know, we try to busily working to try and

Rosie Skene:

bridge
that gap.

Sean Haran:

Yeah. And bring them together
and go, Whoa, I didn't realize that. These companies, you know, would accept me
and the companies are going, well, I didn't realize you guys bring these
incredible skills.

So, um, I think just, just be confident and, and, and
understand that, um, back yourself. You, you've got some great things behind
you. And there will be a role out there for you. There might not be the first
one. It might be the second or third one. You know, some of our guys and girls
who've come through the program on their third or fourth job, that's not
because they fail, it's because they've succeeded and they're looking for to
better themselves each time.

Um, and they learn a bit more each time they make more people
and they just start to build that network and, you know, and find that right
place. And we know, we talk a lot about culture on day two, and we know that
there's some great workplaces out there. And, and let's face it, there's still
some ordinary workplaces where you may not fit, but it's, it's just realizing
that there will be a place for you.

It's just taking that time to find the right place and be
confident and having some support around you. And that's what we do.

Rosie Skene:

I also
enjoyed what, uh, you guys were saying about, , Finding a role that suits you
as well. Yeah, absolutely. So you might not want to work at night or, ,
whatever your situation might be, that that's okay as well, because especially
for first responders, that's generally not okay.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

You have
to do what you're told and turn up when you're told to. Um, so that was
refreshing to hear actually.

Sean Haran:

And I'll
talk a lot more about that tomorrow. And I'll talk about my experiences in
certain roles, because it's important for people to understand again, that, um,
you know, Not every organization is going to be a good experience.

Not every, you know, um, you might think, you know, I left the
cops because I had trouble with, with my last command or whatever. And I
couldn't do it anymore. And, , and it's all going to be wonderful outside.
Well, we've got to be honest with people. It's not always, there's still, you
know, managers and supervisor there who don't get things, but the beauty is
you've now got choice.

You don't have to just accept the posting you've got or the
place you've ended up, , you've, you've, you've got choice and now people move
on. You know, back in the, back in the day, people joined an organization and
spent 20 years there. Well, nowadays, you know, I think the stats will support
my, my saying this, but, um, you know, the average sort of, it's two or three
years maybe.

Rosie Skene:

Wow.

Sean Haran:

That's,
that's the norm. People move on. Uh, so that's, that's an expectation now. , so
you don't have to worry about not fitting in right away. You know, I talked
this morning about a job I spent seven weeks in. Um, it was just a terrible
fit. I needed to get out of there, and that's okay. Um, you've got some choice
to, you've got a choice now.

You can, you can take your time, find the right role. If you
don't want to work full time, that's okay. If you can't work Fridays, that,
that's okay. You find a place that will accept what you can do, and you, you
bring your best, and um, Those roles are out there. So that I think that's the
important thing to understand is that you've got choice.

You don't have to jump into a massive, big job and drown
yourself. You know, it's, , you can take those small steps and do something
small. And if you're okay, then build it up. If not stay there. And there's
opportunities there for, for other types of work. There's voluntary work, some
great volunteer organizations that you can spend some time in, even just to
build your confidence.

Lots of different ways of, of, , moving on and then, you know,
assessing Every six or 12 months ago, you know what, I'm okay just doing this,
or I now want to take on something bigger, , and, and finding those
opportunities, it's a, it's a big world out there, and there's some, some great
things to do, just getting that, it's just getting started, and that's, that's
the challenge

is getting started, and that's why we started Beyond the Badge,
because we know how hard it is, so,

Rosie Skene:

yeah, I
think even myself coming here today, appreciating that you guys have both been
where, Everyone in the room has been, , it does make such a difference because
cops are special people.

Like we don't like a lot of outsiders, , naturally we gravitate
towards each other. So, , for those of us that have left and we haven't gone
anywhere else yet, it's nice to have people like yourself and Simon, , that
sort of, you know, take, take us under your wing and say, you know, it is going
to be okay, here's some things that you need to do.

and then you give the
tools and support to enable us to do that.

Sean Haran:

Yeah,
look, our vision when we kicked this thing off was to, you know, we know
there's things out there and we talked about some of those today. There's, you
can get RPL for things, you can get resumes written from people, and, but you
still got to understand the process.

You've got to understand how to get through an interview.
There's a whole range of things. So we, I think what we set about to do, our
initial vision was to create a pathway. So that we can, you know, essentially
grab your hand and walk you along the pathway. So you feel confident and safe,
give you what you need, as you say, toolbox.

And then a place to come back to, you know, at any time when
you leave, when you leave us or leave home, home base, you can call us anytime
and say, Hey, can you just remind me about this? Or do you know anyone at this
particular company? And we can connect you with, and often we're able to do
that and provide that extra assistance.

So I think it's nice to know, , There's a backup. you know, if
you fall over, you can pick up the phone or send us an email or connect on
LinkedIn. Um, and, and, and we're there to help you. So,

Rosie Skene:

so just
on that, where can people find you at beyond the badge?

Sean Haran:

Yeah. So
we have a website, um, which is, uh, which is beyond the badge.

com. au.

Rosie Skene:

I'll
link to it in the show notes.

Sean Haran:

Um, we
have, um, we're, we're on LinkedIn, so I've got a personal profile LinkedIn. We
have a beyond the badge, uh, personal profile on LinkedIn. Um, we've got a
Facebook page and we're on the end of the phone.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
great.

Sean Haran:

And, you
know, the other important thing is, you know, we don't just throw anyone on a
program.

We're not a, it's not a place where you jump on a website and
just book in and come on. Um, we will always make that initial phone call, um,
and have a chat. And, and that does a couple of things. It creates a
relationship. It creates a level of safety for people. It lets us know if
you're ready and there's been a probably less than a handful of people that
we've sort of said, look, maybe, um, give it six months or so, come, come back
to us.

And you're probably not quite ready to do the program. I mean,
it's not overly overwhelming at all, but it's just that some people are just
not quite ready and that's okay. And we can have that conversation then. Um,
and at least then when they come on the program. On day one, I've, they've had
a chat to us and I've got a level of confidence and that it's a safe place.

Um, the other part of that too, in terms of safety is we're,
we're, we're an independent charity, so we don't report to anyone. Um, we don't
get funded by, uh, an agency or an insurer. Um, the funding at the moment is,
it's, and will continue to be independent and that way, um, whoever comes on
the program has got the, the knowledge that we're not reporting back.

To anyone and saying, Oh, you know, so and so fell asleep on
day two and they're a shocker. It doesn't happen. So that's, that's the other
important factor,

Rosie Skene:

which
is, which is important because I know that, um, a lot of us do are concerned
with what, um, programs may or may not take part in and who that gets back to.

So it does make you feel a lot safer taking part in the
program. Absolutely.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Sean. I've really
appreciated it. I very much appreciate what you and Simon are doing, um,
personally for myself and for our friends and family in Blue. It's, um,
something that is, I actually can't believe that you've only had, uh, 332
people go through the program so far.

So I hope those numbers jump up because it, it's an
underutilized resource, I think, and you have the potential to really help a
lot of people, um, which I think is fantastic. So so much.

Sean Haran:

No, And,
um, thank you for what you do. And, um, yeah, hopefully we can help each other
to get there. Spread the word and help more, more, more of our blue family.

So thanks for the opportunity today. It's been a real pleasure.

Rosie Skene:

You're
very welcome. Thank you.

Speaker:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie SkSkeneen, join
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Beyond Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.