Rosie Skene: Hello, and welcome to episode 17 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Before we get stuck into this week's episode, the first responder mental wellness method is available to join the program is amazing and I'm so excited to welcome in new members. Please head over to my website, tacticalyogaaustralia.com for all the details. And I've also recorded a whole episode dedicated to the program. So go and take a listen to episode four. for more information on that.

This week's guest is so special. Her name is Sarah U'Brien and I am absolutely obsessed with her passion and tenacity. I first became aware of Sarah. When I was listening to her husband Matt's podcast, the heart to heart walk. She was having a conversation by the campfire with Janine Hopkin. They were discussing their journey as families living alongside PTSD. I hadn't yet created this podcast, but I knew that the moment I did Sarah had to be on it.

I met Sarah in person at the frontline mental health conference in March this year, after listening to her speak live. I was in tears then. And I was in tears when we recorded this episode and I've told her that I can't listen to her anymore because I just cry. And I think the reason for the tears is that I can deeply resonate with her family story and how their story is just one of millions across the world. I believe it's so important to share this episode with you because the families living alongside PTSD, need a voice, too, they need support. They are literally the ones, keeping it together, keeping their partners alive. They need to be seen and heard.

I want to add a content warning. this episode is packed full of emotion and maybe intense for some.

Now for her official Bio, Sarah is a community disaster resilience and recovery practitioner, and is passionate about social justice, equity and community led practice. She is the mother of two teenage girls who are equally passionate and driven about their interests. This has resulted in Sarah, also being a soccer and dance mum. She's the wife of Matt and ex New South Wales Police Sergeant and Fire & Rescue NSW Firefighter who was medically retired in 2022.

After being diagnosed with PTSD, depression, and anxiety. And is now the hot debrief podcast at documentary and content creator with soaring Eagle productions. Having supported her husband to navigate the impacts of PTSD and then navigate the adversarial workers' compensation system. Which has bought its own trauma.

Sarah saw first hand the impacts on not only the individual, but also the family and wider network of friends and colleagues. This experience has driven Sarah's passion to not only raise awareness of the mental health of first responders and their families, but also call for action to provide. World's best practice and trauma informed care programs to support those currently serving as well as first responders, veterans.

This has now led her to, with a friend who shares her living experience, create a charity living alongside. Through this organisation, Sarah hopes to advocate for those behind our first responders, their families and friends. And raise awareness of the impacts of first respond to service and the psychological workplace injuries this can cause has on the loved ones of our first responders. Living alongside will also provide a range of support, practical assistance and education for those living alongside a loved one with a psychological injury. All of Sarah's links will be in the show notes. And with that, let's get into it.

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skeen, a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter future.
Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly
reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Rosie Skene:

Hi,
Sarah. Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma.

Sarah U'Brien:

Hi,
thank you so much for having me.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
you're very welcome. I'm so excited to have you here, Sarah. we just were
speaking off air, but you are the first person I've had who , is the partner of
someone with PTSD and a service member being, , New South Wales Police Force
and Fire Brigade.

That's correct. Isn't it?

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah.
Matt was, , a retained New South Wales firefighter as well. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

. So I'd
like to just, we'll just get a little bit of a background with you and Matt.
When did you first meet and how was your relationship in those early days?

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah,
look, , we met when we were 23, , and, , we met at a mutual friend's send off
party.

, Matt was in the police in, , Blue Mountains, and I was, uh,
in education in New, , Newcastle. We didn't know each other, we just had a
mutual friend, and we met at a pub at her farewell, and , yeah, it was pretty,
I don't believe in love in first sight, but I went home the night after and
said to my mum, I've met the guy I'm going to marry, and she, my mum did the
whole, Sarah, now don't get carried away, and I'm like, I, I'm not.

I just know this is my person and, , yeah, he was struck me
straight away with his, uh, integrity. , he is an incredibly honest and good
person. , I used to joke around and say he's the goodest person I know. No,
goodest isn't a word, but, , it was really, he is just such a true and loyal
friend. His nickname is Dog.

Because, , his friends always say that, yeah, he's a man's best
friend. And, , I think that really is, uh, at the core of who he is. And that
was very much the bond that we made very, very quickly.

Rosie Skene:

That's so beautiful to hear someone talk about their partner like that.

Sarah U'Brien:

No, no, I see so much about, of him and those things that I first, um, I suppose
you say attraction, but they were really just his sense of moral decency
really, , was something that really struck me.

I hadn't met anyone with such a, , true sense of, , decency.
justice and, , and that just was in everything in his friendships. When you're
with him, he's so present with you. , he's really focused on you and your
experience and your story. , and he thinks deeply and cares deeply about the
people in his life.

And I see so much of those early traits that I really admired
and respected. I see them now in our children and, , Which is really beautiful.
, they are very much, yeah, a reflection of, of, of their father. They've got a
very strong sense of social justice. Um, and they are incredibly loyal, deep
friends.

It's, , yeah, it's really lovely to see.

Rosie Skene:

What's that's something beautiful to pass on to your children. Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah.
They see some challenging aspects of, of that dynamic now. So it's nice to see
that the, the core foundations, um, of, of a true good person, uh, are very
much there and they do get them from their father.

Rosie Skene:

So maybe
if we can fast forward a little bit and we'll talk about Matt's diagnosis, but
more importantly, I want to talk about you. , so when, what did, did you notice
some things weren't quite right with Matt?

Sarah U'Brien:

, I had over time, Matt, , as I said, we met when we were 23. Matt had been in the
police for three years.

Uh, he was at a, , Police station in the Blue Mountains, ,
Lawson was, , then a small little one manner, , with six people and they just
did, , afternoon shifts and day shifts on their own and then evening shifts
was, was two man. , and that was a, that was a really, that was my introduction
to the police force and the police world and they were a really tight knit
group.

, Matt was the only young single, , bloke in the station.
They're all older men with wives. The wives really took me under their wing of,
you know, this is, this is the police wife way. And when I'm not cooking him
dinner on a night shift, he can, he doesn't make me breakfast when I leave
early in the morning.

So I was probably a little bit more of a feminist and a bit
stronger in that sense. And I think some of the women went, Oh, no, you, you,
you make a meal. And I was like, Oh, Got two legs and a heartbeat. I think he
can cook his own. And so we had some of those sorts of banter. , it was really,
but they were a beautiful group of people and really welcomed me in.

But very quickly, Matt wanted to join Rescue. That's why he
went to the mountains. That was in his calling. Um, and he joined Rescue within
12 months of us, , yeah, dating and moving in together. And, , yeah, he was
absolutely just, Loved rescue. He admired all of the senior rescue guys that
were in the, in the unit and the legacy that they'd left.

, and he worked so hard. It was, he maintained his fitness. He
would ride his bike and run to work. He, um, Our weekends were canyoning and
abseiling and doing hikes so that he knew the trails, he knew that world, he
knew the little, , the, the rocks and trees that might've been a point of
reference to someone that was lost because they looked significant so he could
know where they thought they were standing so he could find them quickly.

He really did, live and breathe. Rescue. And I now know that
was probably at the time, everyone thought it was really healthy because we
were outdoors and he was physically active and he was doing all of those
things. And he does love that, that mountain landscape and the wilderness. ,
but I now know he was too invested and too much of his world was wrapped around
that.

Therefore, you know, now we can't go to the Blue Mountains as a
family because Matt can't be there. , because so much of. His trauma is
interwoven, um, with experiences that were for us. So we would go on a 7K
afternoon run together most afternoons, and they were beautiful, but we can't
even remember that experience now, because they interwoven with such heartbreak
as well and such negative experiences.

So there, I wish now I'd known those things to have a broader
range of interests. And even his photography interest was wildlife and
landscapes and those sorts of things of the mountains. So he kind of seemed to
pull all of his hobbies and interests back into a really, really, um,
interdependent.

experience. And, , yeah, I, I wish I'd known then what I know
now about actually having a broader range of experiences and interests that
don't necessarily connect to each other. Yeah. But yeah, we, so we were in the
mountains for, oh, years that, , progressed. He was, um, yeah, so he loved
rescue and he, , yeah, he fought really hard to stay in that unit, , in, in
terms of increasing his skillset.

So, you know, he had a number of really, really close calls. ,
which he's spoken about in a number of other podcasts, um, which, , instilled
in us that actually the skill sets that he had needed to expand and the
training that the rescue unit offered actually needed to expand to be fit for
purpose for the environment.

So swift water rescue was something Matt pursued, , rock
climbing rescue was something Matt pursued and we paid for him to go down to
the Grampians and, and do a course there, , with the defence force. , Because
of a near miss experience that he'd had and then luckily, a couple of years
later, it was our rock climbing equipment, because it wasn't a police issue at
the time, but it was our rock climbing equipment that he used in a job that,
meant, , a successful outcome.

, we paid for him to go to the Barringtons and do a swift water
rescue course before that was a standard set of training. , that was offered
because he'd nearly drowned in a waterfall. , so, you know, he was always
looking for how do we provide the best possible care to community, but how do
we also skill ourselves with best, well, best practice.

, so he was always trying to bring in new pieces of equipment,
um, that weren't necessarily part of the rescue suite, , because he could see
the benefits. So he was always. pushing, I suppose, in that sense, it from the
place of how do we provide best practice? , and that's always been part of, I
think, um, who he is, is how do we improve?

How do we make systems better? And I suppose I can see so much
of that now in his advocacy in terms of mental health, the first responders and
workers compensation systems. So, um, It's probably a, yeah, it's a value that
hasn't left him. He's just using it in a different way and sees his community
slightly differently.

I suppose he was in the originally in the force and the police
force and fire rescue. It was about the broader community that he served in
terms of that skill set that he had and the people of New South Wales. And his
colleagues, and now I suppose he sees his community as, , first responders that
have had, , a mental health impact from their work, um, and those that are now
unfortunately part of the workers compensation system as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, hearing that story about him pushing to get better equipment does not surprise
me at all from, I have not met Matt, but I have listened to his podcast and
I've seen a lot of his posts and I know that he pushes real hard and likes to
push back, but I can imagine that would have been incredibly frustrating for
him. At the time.

Sarah U'Brien:

Absolutely. It was he, , he could not fathom that some of the skills and
techniques that were still being delivered as core training were actually so
superseded and not even endorsed in other areas. He was constantly frustrated
by that, but, , even the, , the EPIRB. Um, program that's now around where you
go to the police station and you can get an EPIRB if you're doing a bushwalk so
that you, if you get injured or lost, , you can deploy, you know, activate it
and they know exactly where you are.

, Yeah, that was, that was a piece of work that many, including
Matt, fought for, , because of the really, really challenging and sometimes
really negative outcomes from lost people. And , that was a lot of work from
many voices really pushing for that. And now it's just something that's
accepted as a standard piece of offering, , and you can see the benefit in
being able to locate people very, very quickly.

, it doesn't require as much of the workforce. People don't
have to have really negative experiences. They get the help and the care far
more immediately than that, with that they need. , so yeah, and it's not, we're
in the Valley, are these people, we actually know that we've got a really tight
location that we can search for and that we know that we'll get them.

So there's lots of those sorts of things that have happened.
And that, that's just natural evolution in every field. We, , we learn from our
experiences, we improve our practice, but Matt was very much a person that
drove that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, it's, it's important to look back and I, especially for Matt too, to go, you
know, I was a part of that and , it wasn't all for nothing.

Um, cause that frustration, I couldn't even imagine.

Sarah U'Brien:

No.
And I think sometimes when you leave and you look back now and he can see and
look at the rescue units now and that the skills and the training and the
equipment that they have, you can sort of. May not have happened in his time
there, but you can certainly see that that approach of advocacy and aiming for
best practice and really pushing the boundaries of what should we be doing?

Where should we be placing our finances and our energies in
training and resourcing? He can see that, , coming to fruition for others that
are in that force now and in that service.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, so
good. Um, so. In relation to Matt and, and the time that he was leaving the
police, was it something that you've picked up, uh, on when Matt sort of, you
know, started to display symptoms of PTSD or was it something a little bit
quieter or did Matt, how did that come about in your family?

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah.
Really, really a combination. So Matt, , was in the police force for 18 years
and, , towards the end of that, I really felt that he had done enough. , I
could see in him probably what I saw more as fatigue, compassion fatigue,
burnout. , and also we would move, we'd moved from the Blue Mountains to the
Hunter Valley and Matt could not get a transfer into the Hunter Valley.

And we tried and tried and tried and he could not get that
transfer. And the reason why we moved was because I had two little children or
we had two little girls. I was at home with them on my own as he was at work
and I needed a bigger support network Or my children, one of them was diagnosed
with an eating disorder at nine months.

I didn't eat solid food for till she was nearly two. So that in
itself had a lot of challenges in terms of keeping her well, , and healthy and
keeping me on top of, The fatigue that came just in, in those, you know,
parenting moments. so I wanted to come home a bit closer to home to, to have my
support network of my family, cause Matt's mum lives in Adelaide and his dad's
on the central coast.

So we didn't have any immediate family at all in the Blue
Mountains. And we really also wanted our children to have a relationship with
their grandparents as well. So , we made that choice to move, but when Matt
couldn't move, uh, couldn't get transferred, that was really, really
challenging. And then I could see.

the fatigue. I, I felt, I think you need a break and he didn't
see it at all. really pushed against it. And I think, um, he and possibly some
members of his family, , were pretty annoyed with me for pushing so hard in
terms of getting him to leave. But I, again, in my naivety at the time, I
thought leaving was enough.

He just needed something to do. else, something different, and
didn't need to be in that environment anymore. And I thought that would be
enough for him to, you know, be okay. And at the time it was, , so we left the
police. He remained in fire rescue, New South Wales. He joined, , as a retained
firefighter when we moved to Mount Victoria because the Mount Vic fireys there
were also, , rescue responders and often for many of the jobs in the higher
Blue Mountains area.

They would turn up before the police had the opportunity to get
to from Katoomba. So, um, yeah, the, the captain knocked on our door as we were
unpacking into the house and said, Matt, we want your skills in the fire
station. Will you join? So Matt got permission for secondary employment and, ,
joined Fire Rescue New South Wales as a retained firefighter.

And that was a beautiful station. We loved the Mount Vic
station. They became, you know, very much a family. Um, and we're still, you
know, Got a lot of connections with, with many of them today, which we're
really grateful for. But, , yeah, so Matt remained in the fire rescue, New
South Wales when we moved, , to the Hunter Valley and he left the police force
and he got a job as a mine safety regulator within, I think, trade and
investment, the government departments, all the waratah as my children keep reminding
us, but the name changes every, every election.

, so yeah, so then it was, I think, trade and investments. He
was a mine safety regulator. , and based in, in Maitland and, , he enjoyed that
work. It was a new position and, uh, he really enjoyed the challenges of, of
what that role, , involved and he was doing really, really well and, uh,
remained in fire rescue as I said.

And that choice to remain in fire rescue very much was of the
basis that, There really wasn't anyone else in the community that had had his
extensive rescue experience and training. And therefore he said, well, the
government really trained me up with these skills and this knowledge. I owe it
now to the community to continue to allow those skills and that knowledge and
experience to be available to them when they need it.

So he really was that very much that sense of service, uh, that
he remained in fire rescue to support the community and support the other
officers in that. in that station with the skill set and the knowledge that he
had to impart and share to serve and protect. So he continued to do that. And
then there were a number of incidences in that fire station that really were
shocking.

And, , more around management and, , and, and personality. And
we, we remained very much outside of that. We didn't want to be involved in it
at all. And we had completely kept ourselves separate. Uh, but there was a
forced, , mediation, um, upon the station. And we had said mediation will not
work. It's actually probably dangerous at this point.

but that was really not
listened to. And so the mediation happened and the mediation absolutely
imploded and became a horrific experience of Like, yeah, people standing over
each other, screaming, swearing. It was not at all a mediation that should have
been conducted. And, , it was, yeah, it meant at that time, the perpetrator of
that media, the reason why the mediation was being held.

turned on Matt for reasons we still, to this day, do not
understand. And subsequently he threatened Matt, , bailed him up out the back
of our local little country town's shopping centre and simulated a pistol at
Matt's head. , he rang our home, abusing our children and abusing Matt. Matt
saying that he had no right to be a father, and , very quickly Matt became
incredibly hyper vigilant about the safety of our children.

We live in a small country town, they were no longer allowed to
walk home from school. We had to change all of the practices around their
safety and their security because Matt was, this man was incredibly volatile, ,
and incredibly unpredictable. And he had implied to us very clearly that he had
some serious intent, , and so, yeah, towards Matt.

And, , he was then allowed to resign, , from Fire Rescue New
South Wales. , and so then it was no longer Fire Rescue New South Wales
problem. It was very much ours. And , so that was very hard living in a small
country town. And that really, , was the straw. That broke, Matt. , I was
unaware. , in this time, and it's also something that I, I've now learned, I
worked in social welfare and social services my whole career, and I thought I
knew the mental health care system and I thought I knew the signs and I'd, as I
said, I asked Matt to leave the force because I thought that he needed a break
and it was no longer serving him.

And, um, I did not see,
, how he hid his slow unwinding and the, you know, yeah, the, , the impacts of
the corrosion that was becoming, , his mental health. And he, , hid it in utter
perfection and, , brilliance. So he did a master's, uh, he got a promotion. He
was the fittest he'd been in many years. He was riding very well.

40K cycle trips a week. We were running nearly every day. He
was, you know, really, , really available to friends and family. , he was just,
you know, living his best life, uh, from the outside and he hid what was
happening beautifully from all of us. I think, yeah, it came at quite a sudden
shock, , to me.

And it came, , from Matt, and this had been happening over a
two year period, so it had been two years from this major event within the fire
rescue, New South Wales, to, , one evening, , we were just sitting outside, we
just were cooking dinner and we'd just taken a break. Everything was just sort
of simmering away and we went out onto our, onto our deck outside our bedroom
and we're just having a.

You know, gin and tonic in the, in the afternoon and, , Matt
just turned to me and I just got this sudden dread, this sense of sudden dread
came over me, the look on his face. I just thought this is, this is not okay.
And sorry, in the background to this, as much as I'm saying Matt lived his best
life, in the two years before Matt's breakdown, he'd been tested for Leukemia,
pancreatic cancer and a brain tumour.

Um, all of these obviously now we understand were his
psychological distress presenting in physical symptoms. , so we'd managed all
of that and, but yeah, this look and I, I was expecting him to say, actually,
I've got some negative results. And I, at one point I remember saying to him,
Um, I, I do, I do remember saying at one point, do you think, I think it was
around the brain tumour and I just, it's quite benignly, I suppose, in a
breakfast conversation said, Oh, do you think some of this stuff could actually
be mental health?

Do you think you should maybe go and speak to someone? And he
very quickly said, no, I need it to be cancer. And I probably, it didn't hit me
like it should have. I did have, we did have some conversations about it and I
went, well, hang on mental health piece. I think we can, we can do something a
bit, you know, about if we get early cancer really scares me.

, I think we're really limited in, in potentially our options
there. And he went on, , and sort of talked me around and maybe I let myself be
talked around. , Cause in every other aspect of his life, he was doing really
well and I just didn't see anything else. So I just sort of thought this might
just be a legacy of his service and first responder service in not wanting to
acknowledge or be comfortable around conversations around mental health.

And I really probably placed it there. This is, this is a
cultural thing for Matt. This isn't actually maybe something that's a problem
for our family. This is a cultural context. I'm far more open to talk about
mental health because that's my world. So I, , I probably just since checked
myself there and went, okay, this is a cultural thing and I won't go so hard.

Um, and, and be direct in my questioning. It's maybe about
having some more subtle conversations later. I did not see it as an alarm bell
that I should have. So yeah, we were sitting out, , on the veranda and Matt
just, yeah, turned to me. And as I said, I was expecting a cancer diagnosis or
something to that effect.

And, um, no, Matt just turned to me and he said, I don't want
to die, but I can't stop myself from taking my own life. And this will be the
last dinner I have with you tonight. And I just, sorry. So long ago, but yeah,
it's , Every day. And, , yeah, and I, I just said to him, hang on. We aren't,
what are you saying?

And you just, I've been living with this for so long and I
can't live like this anymore. I don't want to die, but I can't live any longer.
And the only way I can stop this is, , if I'm no longer here and I don't want
to pollute you and the girls, I don't want my problems to be your problems. I
don't think I'm the father or the husband that any of you deserve or need.

And I can't be with what, I'm feeling inside and what is in my
head every day, and I can't stop this anymore and I can't live with it any
longer. And so I immediately did the right wrap around where you, well, you
know, hang on, I get that this is a path, but there are other paths. So now
that you've told me this is a team, so that was your solution, but maybe I can
come up with others.

Like, can you give me some time to think of some other
solutions? And so I made him promise that he'd give me some time to find some
other solutions. And so he committed to that and gave me a fortnight and, so I
was like, right, okay, every second of this fortnight is so precious. And of
course, you know, trying to get anywhere in the mental health system in a
fortnight means that you are nowhere at the end of that fortnight.

So that was, that was a battle and a challenge. So it was
ringing good GPs that would understand, and we couldn't get into the GP that we
wanted because that GP was owned the practice, but no longer practicing. So we
went to another GP who, I spent a lot of time really unhappy with and really
angry with, and I've, I've reconciled that.

But, , yeah, the, they put in a mental health care plan, but, ,
with a, and, and referred him to a psychologist that really wasn't a specialty
in any of this at all. And Matt had no interest in going to that person. Um,
but also within the conversations, there had been a statement. And it said to
Matt, and this is Matt's interpretation of it, so I'm not going to make this
doctor own it, but Matt left with the sense that all coppers get like this at a
certain period of time.

It's probably a midlife crisis. Get back to work and stay busy.
So he came home and said, there's actually nothing wrong with me. This is, you
know, I've just been told by the GP that this is pretty normal for police
officers. So I'm normal and this is normal. And if I just stay busy, this will
end. And I was like, you can't busy yourself out of this.

Um, you've been really busy. You've been running every day,
riding 40 Ks on your bike every weekend, doing a master's, getting a promotion,
like how busy do you think you need to be for this, for that to be the solution
to this? You can't busy yourself out of this. You actually can't go to work.
You actually need to stop.

So it took me a long time to convince him to even put in a
leave form. So he put in a leave form. Um, we then, I then rang the
receptionist of the GP that I wanted him to see every day. And I apologized
publicly to that beautiful woman. There's probably a few apologies that'll come
in this, , in this conversation, but one of them in first is to, , the
receptionist.

And I rang her every day and begged and begged and begged. And
I finally got an email address that he finally relinquished to me and I emailed
the GP and I said, I, I can't, I'm keeping him alive at the moment. I can't do
it on my own forever. I believe that he will respect what you say. He's always
thought highly of you.

I want him to see you and, , for you to help us. And that GP
came back to work three days a week for a year. , and he saw Matt straight away
and. Matt, he'd said all the right things to Matt in that, I see this, this is
going to hurt and this is painful and I see you and we will help you, but you
actually need to acknowledge this.

for what it is, and there are people around you that will help,
but you actually have to be part of it. And your part of it is acknowledging
and accepting. And he was that honest, but respectful brutality that actually
has to come in that, in, in that conversation. And Matt really respected it. So
Matt did take the leave.

He, , went to the GP. I think it was seeing the GP At least
twice a week, if not three times a week, , and then it was finding a
psychologist. So I rang around all my networks to try and find a psychologist
that people said was good because I really felt I didn't have many shots of
seeing the wrong person for Matt to actually withdraw from that.

So I really needed to do the groundwork. So I had a couple of
people recommended to me and of course they were so good that their books were
full. They weren't taking anyone on. So again, , another apology, , to the two
receptionists, , of the psychologist that Matt first ended up seeing, and she
actually practiced over two clinics.

And I rang those receptionists daily, begging and crying for an
appointment. And at the end of the second week, one of the receptionists
really, you know, I could hear the, her heart in her throat and she said,
you're going to ring me on Monday, aren't you? Yeah. I'm ringing on Monday and
begging again. And she said, I'll get you the next cancellation appointment.

And so Matt got the next cancellation appointment and, , went
and saw, , this beautiful soul, Paula, who, uh, I had a grief process when,
after a year, Paula said that she'd done all she could with Matt and it was
time to move on. Matt was fine with it. He had this plan and Matt came home and
said, Oh, Paula said that I, and I, I literally went through a grief process.

I've never met her. I've spoken to her several times on the
phone, but I had such a, , such a, uh, Uh, uh, an appreciation is not a deep
appreciation, an absolute real love for this woman who had held Matt in a way
and helped him through things that I couldn't and she really was such a huge
part of our family's healing and family recovery that I, I went, Oh, hang on.

You're not going to let Paula is not part of the care team
anymore. Hang on. I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet. Did anyone check with
me? I might need to be part of this exit process, , which really struck me. I
hadn't sort of realized that I had, , I'd needed what she was giving Matt as
much as I had until, , there was a conversation about someone else taking that
role.

So that was, , that was a surprise to me. , but yeah, so Matt
saw Paula, , then. Yeah, sometimes two times, three times a week for a very,
very long time. And then, , we also, then he also got a psychiatrist. , but
what really alarmed me in that sort of months, once, once we got that care team
together, was that they all actually had said to me, this is evidently workers
compensation, , but Matt's not well enough to make a claim.

So. If you can, you'll, yeah, I get that you need to make the
claim because this care is really, really expensive, but if you have a way of
covering that yourself, that's our recommendation because Matt is not strong
enough to confront the adversarial nature of workers compensation and we may
not be able to keep him alive through that initial process, so can you give us
a couple of months to get him stronger?

So, this was all in the February and March, and we made a
claim, , in, I think, July, June, July of that year. And, , subsequently his
entire mental health and well being went straight back to, , To possibly even
worse than what it was, , when he initially spoke to me that night. So I am
very grateful for that advice, but I think I, I was not ready for that advice.

I thought the workers compensation was the process of getting
Matt the care and the coverage and the support and the systems that we needed
to get him well and get him back to work. And that was always our plan, take 12
months leave without pay or six leave rather from your substantive job with the
government.

Um, and we'd. Go through this process , and get you well, and
then you'd return to work in some capacity and we'd build that capacity and
you'd return to work and that's not, and that's three years in and
unemployable, , and being medically retired from all of his jobs, , so it was
not our experience, what I thought.

was the experience and the intent of workers compensation has
certainly not been, , what we have been given. , and unfortunately we've
subsequently found out that that's actually the experience of an awful lot of
people. So, um, hence some of our advocacy, but, , yeah, we, we finally made
that claim and, , yeah, that, that was a whole nother journey and a whole
nother story.

That's probably a completely separate podcast. Um, cause that,
that, uh, yeah, that was something in itself.

Yeah, we could talk about the workers compensation and how that
affects everyone for hours, I think.

We can.

Rosie Skene:

And, uh, yeah, I get where you're coming from with that 100%. So how are you during this
time? I know that you were saying Matt was keeping busy, , to, , You know,
overcome his PTSD symptoms.

I did the same thing. , I avoided what was going on by being
busy all the time, which was easy because at the time my husband was away for
training and I had three kids and I was busy anyway. So, and I just avoided
everything. How are you though? Because going through all of that and getting
Matt, these appointments and like hounding staff, and I can't even imagine how
that would have been for you trying to keep your husband alive.

Um, at that time and, and the effect that it had on you and the
girls.

Sarah U'Brien:

It was, it was terrifying every day.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

Um, it
was a sense of fear and dread leaving the house. The work you'd have to do to
leave the house so that there would possibly be no triggers whatsoever. , and I
know just on that busy bit, Matt was really busy prior, but the moment he told
me and the moment he was in care.

I think that the, the reality and the severity of it really hit
him, , and it was, it was interesting. He would, he would sleep at a, at hours
and hours and hours during the day. And then at night, you know, he would go to
bed really early, , fatigued, but just that horrific, , traumatized sleep. I, I
remember saying to my mum one time, um, I was so scared to go to bed because.

It's so terrifying, trying to sleep next to Matt, the fits and
fear that you could, and turmoil and anguish, you could see him in and feel him
in as he thrashed and fought against whatever was coming at him. Um, And you
know, you'd lash out and you'd suddenly you'd be hit and he was sound asleep.
He had no idea it was literally protecting himself and kicking and running.

And, but I didn't want to remove myself from our bed because I
wanted to a, that's our bed. I wanted to protect him, but I also didn't want to
say to him, you're so scary to me. Yeah, that I actually can't sleep next to
you because I didn't want more guilt and more shame and more anguish and more
pain on him.

He took everything as his fault. Um, he, the self blame, , was
an aspect of this that I did not want. understand or comprehend at the
beginning, and it's still something we live with daily. Um, so I didn't want to
be another reason for him to blame himself for something else wrong in our
lives or some other thing that we had to carry.

Um, so that was really, really difficult. , But yeah, he would
sleep through the day and we've got a sunroom and he would often be curled up
in a chair in the corner of this sunroom with the sun beating down on him. Um,
and I, I remember sort of watching him one day and I thought, Oh, it's, it's
like, he's nearly hoping that the sunlight will purify him.

Like he was bathing in this sun, trying, and I sort of thought
he sleeps better bathed in sunlight than he does at night. And maybe the
lightness was just enough to purify him. Make the shadows go away so we could
get some rest But yeah, that was that were he would just he was so tired and so
fatigued And just sleeping as I said all the time and that and then the one of
the doctors actually explained That's part of the brain healing and the brain
needs that Extensive sleep and deep sleep to heal and that made a lot of sense
to me then But yeah, so it was you know, we still had two young girls that were
in in primary school and early high school so getting them to school,
explaining this whole process to them.

It was, we've, , we've been really open with them. And I know
that's not a choice that lots, everyone, everyone takes, but it was the choice
that, that we made based on our children and our experience. And so I, I told
the girls very quickly and I didn't, I'd used the language. I said, I believe
that dad has a mental health injury from work.

I think he will be diagnosed with post traumatic stress
disorder and depression and anxiety. And explained those terms and what that
meant in a way that they understood, so that they had the foundation of, of
truth for them to start to understand their world. I let them ask any questions
they wanted. Um, and I, gave them permission to feel anything that they felt
about it.

Anger is obviously one of the first things that comes. Guilt
for them was also a huge part of it. Um, just fear. That, , that they would
become their father, that they would live with this, that this would be
something that would plague them, , that no one would understand, you know,
that shame is real, um, you know, making up stories about what their father now
did, , because it didn't work.

Um, they were too scared to tell their friends in case their
friends parents thought their dad was crazy and wouldn't let them come for, you
know, an afternoon. , playing in the backyard, , would be friends, wouldn't
want to be friends with them because they were now, now suddenly inflicted with
this invisible plague.

Um, so that was really, really challenging to help them
through. But of course they also didn't, again, they didn't want to layer this
on their dad. So they, around him, tried to become these vivacious beautiful
angelic children, , around him so that they could show him that part of his
world was beautiful and that, that, you know, they were, they still loved him.

And so, you know, I very quickly saw the move from these
bright, bubbly, energetic, , you know, beautiful kids into carers, they
absolutely constructed their entire world very quickly around their dad's
needs. And you know, three, nearly four years on now, , the conversations we
sometimes have now is resentment, like how on earth did so much of my childhood
and my early adolescence and now one of them is 17, you know, this has been
most of her adolescence.

Um, and you're, you know, the youngest is, is about to turn 15.
It's so much of her life. But you know, it's her. Right from primary school
right through to where she is today and it's still it's still a constant daily
presence And you know, they're like their lives are absolutely planned around
their dad They're what what kind of day did he have yesterday?

He probably would have had an okay sleep probably be Relatively
regulated this morning. I can come out and have breakfast while he's still in
the kitchen or He had a really shitty afternoon. He probably didn't sleep well
You I'll let him, I'll wait till I hear no sounds in the kitchen before I leave
my bedroom.

, so their day starts regulating themselves around what their
sense of their father is. And this is him getting better. This is him three
years on and much better than where he was. So you know, will I have my music
loud? Will I sing along? To this music that's in my headset. Will that be a
trigger? Will dad not like the lyrics?

Will that be too loud? You know, all of these sorts of things.
, I've noticed that they would come home after school and sit in the car for an
hour. And the, you know, they'd say, Oh, we're just listening to music. I'm
just talking to a friend. No, actually it was them decompressing and preparing.
For what home was going to be.

So they were suddenly in this world of being scared to be at
school because they weren't sure how their dad was doing. And they felt great
responsibility for his well being and him being alive. So they were really
worried that maybe he was harming himself. Maybe he was taking his life. Maybe
it had all become too much.

Maybe that psych appointment was too triggering and he needed
them to ground him. They had great responsibility over that. So they were
really. Uneasy and unsure and fearful all day at school. They felt disconnected
to their network and their friends, they felt different, even though outside
outwardly they looked no different, but yet, you know, then they were starting
to get left out of things because they were withdrawing because they felt so.

unstable and didn't have a strong sense of self anymore and
their, their foundation had been shattered. And so then they were starting to
be bullied at school or left out and they didn't know how to make those
connections anymore. And then they didn't want to because they were so fatigued
with everything being hard in their lives, that this is just another thing
that's going to be hard and going to hurt.

I'll just leave it there and go and have my lunch in the
bathroom. So we had a lot of those sorts of things happening. And then home
would be fearful. They were on. You know, that typical saying that everyone
says on eggshells, and I've also sort of started to think that it really felt
like I was standing in the middle of a minefield, and I had to, I knew
wherever, where I stepped, a mine was going to explode, but I had to make the
assessment of what fallout I was prepared to live with from, I had to move forward,
I couldn't stand here.

So I just had to work out whether, who's shrapnel, you know,
who got hit by the shrapnel? Who was I prepared to, was it me? Was it Matt? Was
it one of the girls? Was, was the fallout going to be small enough that I could
band aid them later? You know, all of that sort of stuff, it wasn't just
eggshells. There were, there were, wherever you stepped, it was going to
explode.

And I just had to work out what we were, what we could live
with that in that moment, , as to where. Where to step and what to say and how
to move and that is exhausting. , and terrifying. And I felt so guilty that I
was making these assessments of acceptable harm. That's how I live my life.
Like what, what harm on the people I love most?

Am I prepared to take and accept today to get this, this
treatment? life to move forward or for this action to happen. They're
disgusting, horrific and unacceptable decisions that we are forced to make when
we are living alongside PTSD and caring for the people that we love. And I was
making those assessments for the three people that were most dear to me.

I know one night Matt had an utter explosion over and he was
never, You know, we do, I do a lot of talk with him about boundaries and with
the girls, , but that was never violent towards us ever. He was never
aggressive towards us. His anger was always at himself, but of course it would
explode and he would smack the table or he would throw his phone like, I think
we've gone through five or six mobile phones.

Just thank God for Apple Care Plan, , Care Plan. , But yeah, he
would, you know, he would do that. But that was terrifying for the girls and
terrifying for me. And then, but then he was, his solution was I'll remove
myself. I'm the problem. I'll remove myself. So he would dramatically leave the
house. And the girls are terrified he was harming himself and they're like,
Mom, Mom, where is that?

We've got to go. Like you can't follow him. That's one of his
triggers. Like just, you know, so I would then, or if he hadn't left and he was
just exploding, the girls are terrified. Matt is in this world of explosion and
pain and anger and fear and everything else. And, and he's not, He's not who he
is right now.

This is, if he could see himself, he would never be doing,
like, he would never be acting this way. He's so completely out of control and,
and out of touch with who he is. Um, so. Who do I, who do I hold? Like, where
do I go? Like, who, I'm one person and there are three people that need me
right now that are in the worst moment of their lives, consumed by fear.

And I, I've got to make a choice. And, , yes, it is one night
in particular, Matt. And, um, I just said to the girls, it's going to be okay,
I will, I will get him back. I just, I need you both to stay in the house, just
put on some music, stay together. And I promise you, Dad and I will, we'll be
back soon. And they were just crying at me and screaming at me and literally
dragging on me.

I said, I need you to do this. So I went out and I, I had this
sense that Matt would harm himself. And it's one of the only times I really had
that true sense that this could be it. So I followed him into, into the paddock
and, and I found him hiding. And I couldn't get too close, but I, he let me get
close enough.

And he then just started, go back to the girls. I can make this
right. And I'm just like, you can't make this right. You know, and we were
having that kind of conversation, debate. And, , this went on for a while and I
was getting quite frustrated with Matt because he just, I could not cut in and
it was getting dark.

Yeah. And it was the middle of winter. Anyway, Lillian, our
eldest, walked up. I just suddenly heard her coming up from behind me. And she
just goes, Mum, Mum, Georgie and I can't do this anymore. Please come back to
the house. We are so scared. I said, Yeah, honey, I'm coming. Just go back to
the house. You know, you and Georgie be together.

I promise Dad and I are coming. It won't be long. And Matt just
saw this as his, as his, Opportunity, and he just twisted everything with
Lillian against me. Go to the girls, they need you. You're the best mum, I know
you can get them through this. You know, go to the girls, listen to Lil, she
needs you. And I'm like, don't you manipulate her against me so I leave.

I'm not leaving. I'm not going down into the house without you.
And Lil just kept going and she's crying and Matt's just at me and I needed Lil
to go back to the house, I could not cut through with her there. And I just
turned to her and I said, go back to the house Lil, go now. She goes, okay,
okay, okay, okay, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this.

And she started to walk and her legs fell out from underneath
her and she just collapsed on the ground. And she goes, Mum, I'm so scared, I
can't even move my legs anymore. And Matt just went, go to her, go to her, Lil
needs you. I said, and I said, I'm not leaving. Now, I'm staying with you and I
just turned to Lil and I shouted at her and I said, get up and go to the house.

And she goes, OK, and she stood up and she went to the house.
And I'm standing there going, how in my child's worst moment, I haven't held
her, I haven't taken away a pain. I've shouted at her to go to the house so
that I can stand here with her father and keep him alive and get him out of the
paddock and get him back into our home so I can.

care for him. And finally I, I turned to Matt and I said, get,
I'm done. I am so done. Like get, get the fuck up. We're going. And he's like,
oh, and I said, that's it. And I, I grabbed him and he's sort of, you know,
trying to pull away and I just said, we're doing this, I'm, I'm, I'm done. And
so we walked back into the house and, um, I got him in the shower and got him
to bed and, and I went to the girls and, you know, we just sat and cried for a
very long time and we just talked through it and the girls were really angry
with dad for making them feel so scared, but they were really sad for dad.

And. really confused and, you know, are we enough? Why aren't
we enough? How can he be this sad when he loves us this much? And we did all of
those conversations that you do so often. And we finally, I finally got them
calm enough so that I thought that they could rest. And they bunked in together
that night, um, and, um, and got some sort of, some sort of rest.

I won't say they got a restful sleep, but, um, But yeah, and I,
I talked to both the girls not that long ago about that, and I spoke to a
friend of mine also about it, and I kind of, when, you know, I'd, I hope in
time, and I don't expect the girls to have this understanding now, but I hope
in time that they know whenever I chose Matt, I wasn't choosing him over them,
I was choosing him for them.

I was actually choosing them in those moments when I actually
had to go to him because keeping him alive and keeping him well and keeping him
with us was what they needed. And as much as they needed me to hold them and
hug them and make their worlds feel safer, I could only do that by keeping
their dad with us and calming him down and grounding him and looking after him.

And I often, you know, in those times I'd get really angry and
go, I don't know how the agencies that employed him and used all of the best of
him and then the workers compensation that's supposed to care for him, I am so
angry with everyone involved in that entire scheme and employment base to have
left me standing here having to make this choice and then reconcile it with
myself and my children in time.

, And, you know, and provide me virtually nothing and provide
my children virtually nothing and don't provide Matt and I family relationship
counselling so we can work our way through this so this doesn't become the
grudge that breaks us. Um, you know, the amount of acceptance that I've had to
work on.

Um, to accept, you know, and I, I use that term, I don't accept
where we are in the sense that I'm okay with it. I accept where we are and
what's happened because that is the reality and the truth of our experience.
And if I don't accept where we are and where we've come from, I can't control
and take steps from here to where we want to be.

So, but that's so much work. That is, that is exhausting work
and it's good work. , it's healing work, but it's hard. And um, I kind of
think, gosh, the amount of acceptance that I've had to work on in so many
facets of our lives over the last couple of years is, is just immense. It's so
huge and it's still coming.

Like we are still accepting where we are today. , we're still
accepting things within the workers Matt's claim We're still finding acceptance
in the impact this has, um, you know, it's, it, yeah, it's a, it's a daily
practice of accepting, , the situations and the experiences we're living in and
with, , and it's, yeah, it, but it, it is, it's rewarding, it gives us a
foundation that we can move from with purpose and we're really focused on, , on
the future and hope and moving with purpose for ourselves and for the community
that we now see that we serve.

Um, and we are really, really hopeful. I don't want people to
think that we're not hopeful and our family's not full of love. It is. It's,
it's a, it's a joyous family. It's a loving family. , and it is a family full
of hope. Um, but it's also a family that just has this extraordinary background
and, and, and undercurrent within our daily experiences.

Rosie Skene:

Wow. So, I'm about to compose myself, Sarah, so emotional, um, and thank you for sharing
that because I know that it's something that a lot of people and a lot of
families, um, will really resonate with, , keeping their loved ones with us.

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah. I also want to say though, to the first responders that might be listening to
this, I, you know, we, we talk about our experiences as family members and
those that love you, , to try and give each other the support and the strength
that we need, nothing of what we say we mean to hurt you.

And I think that's really hard for us. So much of our
experience is wound up in your injury, but it's our injury too. Um, and it does
have a legacy and an impact on us, but we don't say that to hurt you. We say
that so that we can care for you and help you because it's that acceptance
piece. We have to accept how this sits with all of us so that we can be
purposeful to get you better and to love you and to help you.

And I know often, I know when Matt was doing the heart to heart
walk last year and I started just posting some things about living alongside
PTSD and one of the walkers actually said to Matt one morning. God, have you
read what Sarah wrote last night? Like, Jesus mate, are you okay with her
putting that out there?

Like, shit, that hit home. And, , and I'm really fortunate.
Matt literally just said to him, I don't read it. , I don't want it. I know
Sarah doesn't write it to hurt me. I've, I'm talking about my experience
because it helps me and it brings attention and light to what we, what we need.
I can't deny. Sarah and Lillian and Georgina's story and voice and experience
for them to advocate, for them to get the support and the care that they need.

And I've been really, really fortunate that Matt has always had
that approach. And I know that it's not something that every first responder or
everyone living with a, with a mental health injury can, can't do. at all the
time. And I'm sure there's some times that Matt would just go, my God, could
you just stop?

Like, shut up, really? , I'm sure there are times, , that it,
that he feels like that, but I've been really, really fortunate that he has
come to that understanding and perspective of, of this, because it has been
incredibly strengthening for the girls and I to be able to have a voice and
share our experience.

And we don't see our experience very often. Our experience is
that of protection and love for the person that we hold most dear. And
sometimes we don't feel. But we have permission to talk about our experience
because we've only got our experience because of their experience. And so
they're so intertwined and there's no blame there.

That is just it. That's just the reality. , but these things
are so complex that blame is very, very real. And it is often one of the first
responses and the first ways that people take these conversations, but they're
never meant that way. . So they are, they are hard to, to talk about that. I, I
genuinely know that they are hard to hear and I apologise to anyone that's
listening to this that goes, that's really tough to hear.

And I don't want that to be maybe the reality for my family.
Um, but. Unfortunately, it is a reality for a lot of families and while my
experience is my experience and it might resonate with others, mine is not
everybody's experience either. So, um, I think that's, that's also really,
really important to say that I'm not speaking for any other wife or partner or
family member.

I'm speaking to them from my experience.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, thank you. I, um, I don't hear a lot of people, like you say, talking about
their experiences because of that fear that, , you'll either trigger your
partner or harm them further. And so I really, I really do thank you because, ,
It's not spoken about enough and you can't help but put yourself in Matt's
position.

But also as a wife myself, you know, putting myself in your
position and thinking about that, like I can't even imagine that situation. But
something I do want to talk to you about now is in the workers compensation
system,

And I know that you are a very strong voice
for change. , and living alongside PTSD is created out of that. And I would
love for you to talk to us about what you're doing with living alongside PTSD,
because it's so important.

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah.
Thank you. Look, it really struck me very quickly, , that I was not. included
in anything, and it was only by Matt's choice that I was. And again, this is
another element that I know we are very fortunate, and this is Matt's approach
to it. Matt, very early on, he didn't want to see the psychologist, and he
didn't want to see the psychiatrist, and he didn't want to do those things.

And, , he came to me and said, I, the choices I've been making
for myself have ended up being that I'm going to take my life. So I am clearly
not in the best place to make decisions for myself right now. So I'm going to
let you make some of those decisions and if those decisions are that I need to
see a GP and I need to go to the psychologist and I need to engage with a
psychiatrist and I need to take medication which I've never wanted to take, I
will do those things because I clearly am not acting in my own best interests.

So that was an incredibly profound, um, position for him to
take on this, I think, and that then when we entered the workers compensation
system, I could just see the brutality of it. Matt was not psychologically or
emotionally or cognitively in a place to speak to the, to anyone in this system
about his own best interests.

He did not represent himself in his own best interests. He
could get angry very quickly. out of quite a benign, well, they would assume a
benign comment, but I would say that it's because they're not trauma informed
or person centred. Um, so they're just ticking a box and doing a piece of
paper. , so that was really damaging to him and I could see his treatment
unwinding the more contact he had with the system, , the frustration he would
have at trying to express himself or navigate or understand.

So I was walking alongside this and I said to him, I need to be
part of these conversations just to help you. listen and hear so I can take
notes because you forget the beginning of the conversation after the second
word in the conversation. So you're not even like, you'd get off the phone and
I'd say, okay, so what's happening?

You're like, Oh, Oh, Oh, I think they'll send us an email. I'm
like, Oh, , you think, will they, or will that email reflect what you said in
that conversation? Or will that email reflect what they are prepared to say? To
give us or like, is that, is it okay. Can we start again? , and I, you know,
and I didn't want to be doing that to him either.

Cause then he's like, well, I can do this. And I'm like, you
can. But this is a system that is so complex. So he very quickly gave
permission to everyone in writing and on the phone for me to actually be the
lead contact. So it was my phone that they would ring, not Matt's, because the
phone calls you got control.

Matt might've been having a really good day and then they'd
make one phone call and it could be quite benign, but they cut in on our life
and they don't have permission to do that. And I could see the girls getting
angry. Matt would finally have a pretty stable life. day or morning and we get
a phone call and it would completely unwind the rest of our day and the girls
would get to the end of the day and go how do they have the right to take what
would have been our best day yet from us because they bloody wanted a phone
number or a or a pay slip or something stupid that doesn't matter and they took
our best day and now it's this and now we've got dad angry tonight and now he
can't sleep and Why now tomorrow will be shit too, like, and I went, okay,
we've got to actually manage this.

You can't cut into our life unbeknownst to us at your random
need for information. If this is person centred, then put the person at the
centre of this. So we can't do that. , without lots of structural change. So
I'm advocating for that. But what I could do in my family was become the lead
contact. So that's what happened.

And that was really, really beneficial. It is a full time job.
Um, which, you know, so I remember saying very early on, and this is something
I want to do with living alongside. And it's something that if there's anyone
out there listening and knows how to start to help me move this forward,
please. , but one of the things that I said to one of the poor women on the
other end In, , EML or eye care at one point, I said, I just, I need a breast
care nurse.

I think she, I'm sure she thought I was mad cause . she said,
beg your pardon, Sarah, I said, I need a breast care nurse. She's like, sorry,
have you got, have you got, I'm like, no, I don't have breast cancer. The
McGrath Foundation raised money for breast care nurses and you, when you get a
diagnosis, you get allocated a breast care nurse that knows the system, that
knows the treatments, that knows the injury, that knows the disease, that knows
the impact.

And they walk with you through your diagnosis and all of your
treatment and they are your family's person to Go to appointments to triage
information to look at all of the information and say, Hey, we've got some
options here or how, you know, checking with, they care for you through your
breast care journey.

I said, I want someone connects with my family and cares for my
family through this system because this is brutal. I described it one day as
like knowing that you're lining up for a haunted house and you've actually
bought your own ticket to your own trauma. Which you're really not really sure
why you're doing is you line up and you're kind of really going, Oh my God,
should we really talk my friend into letting me purchase this ticket?

Anyway, we're here now. Okay. Well, we have no choice. You've
got to move forward. And you walk into the door and you're blindfolded and
you're in the dark and no one, you don't have any way to get out of the exit.
You don't have a map. You know that at some point something's going to hit you.
You don't know when or from where or from what side.

And you just have to grab hold of your children and your loved
one and find the exit. Being hit unbeknownst. All the time in this pool because
I said, well, that's a horrible way to describe our system. I said, well,
that's the, that is not a horrible way to describe the reality of my every day.
You might get a pay check and go home and live at work in a nice office and
have, you know, wireless USB charges on your lunch station desks outside in the
public park outside.

I care, but I don't get that. I actually have this terrifying
system and I don't know how to get out alive. And so that was, it was a full
time job navigating this. So I wanted a breast care nurse to walk with me and
help me navigate and shelter me, , and my family , through this process. Um, so
maybe not breast care nurses, but maybe, , some workers compensation, , family
support, , people that, that can help and have a lens not just to the injured
person, but to everyone.

I mean, my parents, my dad's 88, , and my mum's in her early
80s and they have set. with this, , since the diagnosis and they have been
utterly extraordinary. But, , the trauma is not just generational to the next
generation. It actually goes up into the other generations and the whole system
and the whole network that supports and loves that person.

You know, my dad's played, you know, at two o'clock in the
morning when Matt's been missing to try and ground my girls and give them
something else to think about. My mum has bathed Matt when he has disappeared
and come back out of the bush, muddied and bloodied and put him to bed because
I was not at home, you know, they've sat in some of these experiences and I
think, gosh, , I've, what have I done to their retirement?

This is the time that they should be, , enjoying their
grandchildren and enjoying their friends and the hard work that they've put in
their whole lives. And now they sit with us in this trauma and help me
navigate. , and try and protect me and I know that's what parents do, but, , at
88 and 83, it's a really tall ask of really beautiful people that have already
done all of their hard work.

And mum has told me it's not hard work, it's love. Um, but, and
I know that, , and anyone that knows my parents will know that. Instinctively,
uh, that is who they are, , but it is extraordinary that they're not seen in
this system. There's nothing around a support network or a coffee morning for
them, like for parents of our first responders that, you know, that must be
absolutely, I rang my mother in law after Matt rang her to tell her what had
happened and I just rang and said, I, Helen, I love you.

Ask any questions. I can't imagine that phone call. Just know
that I'm loving, I'm loving him and I'm doing everything I can to keep him with
us. But, , ask anything. And all she could do was cry. And I'm like, you know,
where's, where's that support network? Where's that support? We need to be, we
need to be intentional.

These things don't happen. They have to be done with intent.
So, you know, the girls get, I think, , children of, and, and partners of first
responders in at least the EML and ICARE system within New South Wales get
eight psychoeducation sessions they're called. , I couldn't find anyone that. I
knew what a psychoeducation session for PTSD was in The Hunter, of one person
I've been told about, but their books are full, so I've never been able to get
into them.

, I found my own psychologist myself, , but you get eight
sessions. , I remember the, the psychologist that I found for Lillian who has
just been a godsend and I've, and it's taken me a much longer to find someone
for Georgie, which is also a huge issue. My youngest went for an incredibly
long time without proper psychological care because we could not get her.

To anyone that she felt comfortable with and, or, you know,
that could sustain, , what she needed. And, you know, we have to pay for that
past those eight sessions, but I remember they went to her eight sessions, and
at the end of the eighth session, just at the end, last 15 minutes, she finally
actually had the ability to put some words to, and she calls it, it's in her
top eight.

five worst moments, and that was the moment that I spoke about
earlier, in the top five. It's not the top, but it's in the top five, she tells
me. Um, and she finally found some language around that to very roughly, like
just sort of start to talk to it and express a little bit. And the, the, the
psychologist did not understand the experience or really where Lil was going
with it.

And the session was over. And the psychologist actually rang me
and said, Sarah, I don't know how you do this, but you can't leave this here. I
can't, I'm not disclosing, but I'm telling you, it would have been
psychologically more sound for Lillian not to say anything to me than for her
to find the language at the end of her care to just find some words to it.

I don't know, it doesn't have to be with me. I don't know how
you do this. I don't know what your finances are, but you can't, I'm telling
you, you psychologically, medically, clinically cannot leave this here. So then
you go, okay, how do we afford this when Matt's not working, we haven't got an
accepted claim?

Matt's claim wasn't accepted for eight months, , which was, you
know, we've GIPA'd everything and I encourage everyone to GIPA everything, um,
but we gipa'd his file and it's taken us multiple GiPA's we've had to put in
freedom information to CIRA, to ICARE, to the IRO, to the police, to the fire
brigade, to EML, like we, they, you know, transparency of government does not
exist in the ICARE workers compensation system.

, But within all of that, and you know, that, that's a full
time job in itself, trying to actually work out the language and the fine
tuning of such a request to actually get the information that you need. You
would just think that you would write and ask for your file. Well, that's not
the way it works.

So within all of that, we discovered that the medical advice on
day five, after Matt submitted his claim, was that it was a valid claim. They
accepted the severity, they accepted the causation. , it should be accepted. ,
but because Matt had, we made that claim with the fire brigade because he was
in the fire brigade.

Um, and they didn't want to take full coverage even though
psychological workplace injuries is a disease injury. for PTSD because it's a
progressive, it was deemed a progressive injury, , and we agreed with that. ,
so it's a disease injury which falls under the DUST disease legislation, so
it's good that we deal with psychological injuries in DUST law.

Um, so that means that the employer of last contribution
carries the claim. And the fire brigade felt that the police were also a
contributor, so they didn't financially want to carry the claim fully. So they
wanted the police so that the police would not come on board. So then they said
to us, could you make a claim with the police?

So then we made a thinking we were doing the right thing,
didn't understand this law at the time. We thought, yeah, okay, that's what we
need to do. Of course. Yeah. They were both contributors. Yep. We get that.
That was not what we should have done. So we made a claim with the police and
they rejected outright, um, because they weren't the employer of last
contribution.

So that was illegal. definition in the legal, like legally,
morally, they should have, I believe, because absolutely they should be
involved. , but legally there's no morals in this system. So it's only legal
and legally they could get away without doing anything. So legally they didn't
have to. What that said to Matt, and you know, you and I met at the first
responder mental health conference earlier this year, and you know, that moral
injury conversation that just, I think hit all of us heavily.

, Here's the moral injury. Matt served and protected New South
Wales for 18 years in the New South Wales police force. Within police rescue,
he's highly decorated. He's got many awards and bravery medals. So I want to
pin something on his chest, , to recognize the work that he's done. But when
that work hurts, they find a legal loophole that says we don't have to.

And you know, Matt kind of at one point said, There were some
jobs that I never wanted to do that were so horrific and, you know, ghastly for
many reasons, not just the physical visual trauma. They were emotionally
layered with just horrific circumstances. I didn't want to do those jobs
because Who would want to step into that?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

But
you always step into that because that is your job. You are skilled and you are
trained and you serve and protect. And he said, I could never turn around and
go, Oh, boss, that job really doesn't sit well with me. And I think it's in my
best interests not to do that job. But when you make a claim to your employer
that that job hurt you, they've got the capacity to go, it's not in our best
interests to accept liability.

That is a moral injury. And we need that term to be legally
recognized as a medical diagnosis. And the fact that we see it in 2024. with
the knowledge that we have and we have law makers still telling us that we have
to be careful with treasury managed funds. So we have to move slowly and
methodically.

I want you to be careful with treasury managed funds. I want
you to move methodically. I think you are not being careful with treasury
managed funds when you don't accept and I think you're not being careful. Um,
make legal these medical diagnoses because you are actually misappropriating
funds in treatment that is not actually focused on the, on the actual diagnosis
because we can't diagnose moral injury because you legally won't recognize it.

So we have to give them a diagnosis that actually doesn't fit,
which then puts them down a pipeline of treatment that is actually not focused
on their core issues. So how do we ever recover well and sustain healing if we
are being put down a pipeline It's just not fit for purpose. We would be back
at work, we would be healthier, we would be doing better, we would be
taxpayers, our families would be healthier, our children wouldn't have a legacy
of, of being engaged in a mental health care system.

My youngest missed 58 days of school last year and 36 partial.
All because of her father's injuries. You know, her education is now being
impacted. That's not a good use of treasury managed funds. So I want you to be
really careful and really purposeful with treasury managed funds. How dare you
use that?

And you can hear it in my tone. I get so annoyed at politicians
and staffers telling me that that is why we need to move slowly and we need to
be careful and we can't introduce these sorts of things without really lots,
lots more research. I'm like, well, the research is there. The will is not.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

So, you know.

We've really got to find the will, and I think unfortunately,
the will in the community to support and require our politicians and our local
members to take this action. The will is not there in the general voting
population until a loved one or themselves enters this system. But this is a
system that every single person employed in New South Wales today is
potentially are going to be a victim of.

Because this is the only system and particularly in the first
responder system where treasury managed funds, which is EML, QBE and Allianz
provide the care for all the government employees. So it's not just first
responders, it's nurses and it's transport people, it's teachers. We've CIRA
review that got released a week ago.

And the MacDougall report that was done a couple of years ago
as well, and there's case law now, unfortunately, as well, that supports this,
that says that treasury managed fund insurers are not legally required to
operate and legislatively legally required to operate under the iCare system.
So they are contractually required to do so under their contract with iCare.

But if they breach, CIRA cannot bring penalties. Or prosecution
against them because they are actually outside their scope, which is just
extraordinary to think that government employees, unlike every other employee
in New South Wales, is not given the same legislative, legal protections of the
system of care that they are given after their service to the state has hurt
them.

It's quite profound that this has been allowed to go on
silently in the background for many, many years. Um, and what that has now done
to Matt. He's had nine breaches and I'm sure there's many listening that have
had many, many more that we've identified. And we, and this is the other thing,
we've identified all the breaches in Matt's claim ourselves.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

IRO,
ICARE and CIRA have not identified one of them. Every time we identify them,
they write us a letter saying, thank you for the opportunity for us to improve
our practice. We've now written to them and reminded them of their obligations
under the contract. And we were getting really annoyed that that was all that
was happening.

We're like, hang on IRO, hang on SIRA, hang on ICARE. You know,
the legislation says you can do these things. Why is none of this done when
these people breach? What we have now discovered, that they all knew and have
gas lit us this whole time, is that the reason why that's all that they do, is
because that's all that they can do.

Because EML, Allianz and QBE under TMF sit outside the
parameters of, of legislative power. framework and protection. So it, you know,
so Matt has now said they've breached nine times, nothing has happened. No one
prevents them from doing this. And when they do it, they get a letter. If I
ever did anything like that in any of my careers serving this state, I would
have been prosecuted myself or had serious charges or ramifications or career
ending outcomes.

I'm not subjecting myself any longer to a system that does not
afford me both legislative protections that are apparently there within the
system. So he's withdrawing from treatment. He's not allowing himself to be
subjected to that. And so that's now something that. me and the girls have to
manage is that he's been doing well.

He responds really well to treatment. We are fortunate. He,
he's really opens himself up to treatment and he, he does do the work. He, I've
never seen anyone work harder on themselves in my life than what Matt has done
in the last three years. It has been utterly humbling to watch how hard he
works and how he forces himself into situations that he knows will hurt him and
be hard, but he does it for his children to be a present father, to be a
present husband, to maintain some normalcy, to reflect what a functioning human
should be.

And you know, on that, we then, then your Facebook page gets
scrolled and, you know, Lee, Kelly and Associates. on behalf of EML lawyers,
rip that photo off the Facebook page and say, Oh, Matt's nicely dressed. So
he's got capacity for self care and he's standing there with his children. So
he's maintaining a, a healthy family and Sarah's standing next to him.

So he maintains a marriage and Oh, look, he's smiling. So he
doesn't have a problem being in crowds. And you go, What? That's, that's not
our experience. Matt was unwell all morning. We dressed him. I picked his
clothes. The girls are standing next to him to ground him. You know, we've got
a, we've got a joke in the family that when Matt needs to smile, we tell him to
bite a pencil.

You know, so one of the girls had whispered that to him just
before the photo was taken. So, you know, you manipulate our life against us
while denying our reality. And then you want to, abuse and misrepresent any
capacity that you see against us to say that that is evidence of this injury
not having a legacy or a huge, you know, detriment to the capacity that you
hold as a human.

You can't possibly. ethically manage a system to get people
back to work when that's the basis of the approach. So we are really focused on
presumptive legislation. New South Wales is the only state or territory in
Australia now that doesn't have presumptive legislation for first responders
with a psychological workplace injury.

I cannot fathom how the biggest employer of first responders in
Australia does not have presumptive legislation. So we really need to advocate
for that. Um, we are really trying to look at, within Living Alongside, , I'm
really trying to advocate for, , better support for families. So I think that
there should be unlimited psychological support and care for parents, , and
partners and children of first responders, and that should be directed by their
psychologist and their GP.

Um, so that we can actually sustain their care and their
wellbeing, , trying to actually support my children's schools to have any
understanding of what my children were now living with was impossible. They
have no supports within the education system to get any information about first
responder families, the impact of shift work, the impact of night shifts, the
impact of, you know, the Bondi event, for example, children, they're knowing
their parents of, of, of ambulance officers and police officers.

Scared that their dads and mums are going to work and that's
what they might be faced with, you know, the bushfires in 2019 and 2020 with
children of RFS families. watching, you know, not able to leave their
classrooms at all during the day because the smoke was so bad, knowing mum and
dad are out there and they come home at night and all they see and hear on the
news is Australia's burning to the ground.

You know, the fear those young children must have sat with
while they were so, but how do they speak to that fear when everyone is so
proud of what their parents are doing? That is a really hard ask on young
children to navigate emotionally and cognitively, how they express their needs
or their fears in that space.

So we need schools to be able to see that for our children and
our families and be able to access care and programming and support so that the
teachers and those that are in positions of care and responsibility for our
children are informed with best practice. The Defence Force do it. Whenever
there's a Defence, you know, anywhere where there's a Defence.

Um, location in these schools nearby, those schools have access
to great supports. They do. We don't, we don't have that for our first
responders yet, you know, we've got all sorts of systems in New South Wales for
veterans, , defence veterans in discounts in all sorts of, you know, state
based taxes and, and things.

We don't provide that to our own state based employees. Um, you
know, we've got return to work supports. It's a state government. requirement
every year to actually identify how many defence veterans are employed in
public service in New South Wales. We don't have that same data capture,
therefore it's a goal.

of the government. We don't have that same goal for our own
first responders that we've already trained and employed and heard. And we
don't have that same approach to getting them back into other government
employment, like we do the defense. And I'm not saying don't do it for the
defense. Absolutely do it for the defense, but actually also do it for your own
employees, cause the defensive federal employees, what about our first
responders that are state based responsibilities?

So, There are some systems there that we can improve and
change. , but in terms of the support specifically for families, I would really
like to see the Department of Education come on board and be included in this
conversation. I alluded to the Heart to Heart Walk earlier. And we, we joined
Matt on the Heart to Heart Walk in the last few weeks with quite a number of
other families.

And it sort of became quite a big celebration as we got closer
to Canberra. And it was just, just, I've still got goosebumps. It was just
incredible. And, , there was, um, one of the walkers, Billy. Another incredibly
passionate advocate for this space, and he's in the ACT. And Billy's son Rowan
joined us on the walk.

Um, and so too did Hoppy, who is one of the core four. And his
wife Jeanine, who walked to represent partners. And Jean and I did the, ,
podcast on, on the episode on Matt's podcast, , while we were on the walk
together. And, um, their, two of their children also joined in this sort of,
and, , for the last couple of days.

And we were in the Brindabellas and we were walking through the
Brindabellas into Canberra on the second last day. And the kids woke up that
morning and said, oh, can we just do a kids' walk? Like, can you all adults
stay in the cars? And we're like, oh, okay, road traffic management plan. Let's
get this sorted.

Yeah, I'm sure, sure we can. , so we said, yeah, yeah, you can
do an hour. So we worked it all out and off they walked. And they just talked
and talked and, you know, sky larked and, and just had a wonderful time. You
could just see them walking through the ranges. It was just exquisite to, to
watch as parents.

And we pulled up at the end of the hour and said, okay, And
they all just sort of just went, no, we're not coming off. And, oh, sorry. And
they didn't want to come off the walk because they wanted to walk for every
child of a first responder that lives with this injury and lives with this
experience and doesn't feel seen and doesn't feel heard.

And they said, we're not, we're not going to come off the walk.
We are walking and every step we take is for another child like us out there
that doesn't feel seen and doesn't feel heard because they are by us today. And
for our kids. To come to that on their own and walk with such compassion and
purpose, really, it just brought all of us, we all just sat in the cars and
howled.

The pride watching our children do this, it was absolutely
extraordinary and, and Rowan and Georgie. Excuse me, they became quite good
friends just instantly. It was that instant bond and, and I'm sure you would
appreciate that and the listeners would appreciate that when you meet someone
that has a shared living experience.

You, there are no words, there is no need for words. We just
understand each other straight away and I got that with , with a number of the
wives, a number of the wives that I met. And, , yeah, anyway, Georgie and Rowan
and Lillian just had that instantly and we, we'd walked into Canberra and we'd
stayed that last night and ordered way too many pizzas and Anne Urquhart came
and, , which was just beautiful, a senator from, from Tasmania that's been
incredibly supportive and,

uh, Jeremy Frutell, who's now the, , Commissioner for Fire
Rescue in New South Wales, his act, , deputy or acting at the time. And he came
and had the last night pizza with us and, which was extraordinary. And all of
our friends and family all came and Simone Haig from Tasmania, who actually was
the person that started, um, the, the, the work for the walk, which was, ,
Simone actually started the 2019, , Senate inquiry into first responder mental
health.

She was the instigator of that report. So she was there too,
which was a beautiful surprise. Um, so we had this gorgeous night and then, ,
we walked in onto Parliament House the next day and we went, you know, went and
celebrated that night. And the next day we had to go on, you know, back to
work, got to clean all the cars.

Got to return clean vehicles. They were just absolutely, it was
hilarious. So we all went to clean the cars and we were getting ready. And
Georgie sat on the bed and was crying, and I said, Honey, you okay? She goes,
The moment Dad left the driveway, I wanted the walk to be over. I've hated the
walk the whole time Dad's been away, because I've not known if he's okay, and
he's not, you know, hasn't been at home, and it's been hard, and I've missed
him.

And I've wanted him back, and I've wanted the walk to be over
every day. And now I never want the walk to end. She said, because today I've
got to say bye to Rowan. And she said to me, I now get why Janine means so much
to you. And I now know why dad, like the walk guys mean so much to dad and his
PTSD support group.

And she said, I've never met, other than Lil, my sister, I've
never met another kid that just gets my experience without me having to say a
word, who accepts me, who understands, who sees other people. All of that fear
and ugliness, and sees me beyond it. And she said, I've never had that. And I
don't want to lose that.

And Rowan's in Canberra, and I'm in the Hunter Valley. And we
just, you know, we've made a pact. We make sure that they connect. And, but
I've been reflecting on that a lot in terms of, you know, living alongside and
the support and the advocacy for families. It shouldn't be by chance that Matt
and Billy did a walk, that our children get that kind of connection.

This is something, if it's good for our first responders with
the injury, it's good for our partners and it's good for our kids. We need
clinically managed peer groups and it's not, you know, I catch up with a friend
for a coffee and she's a, she's a, um, a PTSD wife as well. But that's our
friendship. And yes, we can do peer catch ups, but actually clinically managed
peer groups are a completely different type of therapy.

And they're a really powerful, important type of therapy. And
we need to be actually providing and creating those and being intentional.
These should not be by chance. You know, I met this other wife on Facebook and
we both discovered we lived near each other. That should not be how our
connections and our support networks by chance are created.

Some of them are beautiful and absolutely my friendship with
her is, and I'd never give it up for a moment. And I'm glad that, and I love
the way it came about, but actually the systems and those responsible for this.
should be intentional about our care because I know when I'm doing better,
Matt's doing better.

When the girls are doing better, Matt's doing better. And I'm
sure that that is the same for every family living alongside a psychological
workplace injury from First Responder Service. When we understand, when we
accept, when we can find acceptance in our own lives and our experience, when
we, when we know what to expect in the system.

But when we are fulfilled and nourished, and we have our breaks
and our support. We can weather what our experiences are with our loved one. We
can have more compassion. We can have more understanding. Our reactions can
probably be more timely and appropriate rather than coming constantly from
fatigue, you know, which then is a trigger and sets them off.

And, you know, if we do better. Our people do better, and if
they do better, they recover more sustainably, and they re, they recover with
purpose, and they, they recover to more of the people that we knew. Then they
become more productive and capable, and that's what this system, and that's
what our society wants.

I cannot fathom in 2024 with all that we know that we've still
done so little. And every time I speak, people are like, Oh, that's, that's
interesting. Like, it shouldn't be interesting. It should be normal.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Sarah U'Brien:

Like, come on. I don't think I'm a genius. I don't think I'm a visionary. I don't
think anything amazing of myself.

I just, I'm speaking my truth and I'm not the first person to
do this. I know I cannot possibly be the first person to say the things I've
said today. There are hundreds and thousands of people across Australia with
this living experience, screaming for this. We just have to find a way to
connect our voices, connect our advocacy, and drive it to the direction that it
needs to be driven.

So, that's what I'm hoping to do with Living Alongside , with
my friend. , and yeah, we're hoping that we can be that voice, that we can, I,
I, as I said earlier, I, I've been doing some of those Instagram sort of posts.
I kind of went on stuff and I was going to put it out there. And, , yeah. You
know, the feedback from across Australia has been incredible.

They're just, you know, they're saying to me, , this is the
first time I've felt seen. I had a, I had a woman contact me, she's in her
forties and she said, I'm the daughter of a, of a paramedic. And this is the
first time I felt like my mum or my experience has ever been acknowledged or
seen. How can you get to be in your forties and never feel like, you know, what
you lived with as a child, with your dad and the paramedics.

It's only seen now, it, that is just so heartbreaking to me and
so, you know, that, that's why, that's why , we're sharing our story because we
know that we're not alone, but , we are alone in this in so many ways. So we
kind of start saying we're, we're alone together, , cause I think we do feel
really alone.

Um. in our worlds, but we are alone together. And, , by sharing
our stories and sharing our experiences, we can find healing and hope, but we
can also find, , validation. And I, that was one of the comments that I got
recently, you're the validation I didn't even know I needed. And I thought,
okay, I, I, that, that's enough.

Like I just, I'll just keep doing this. I'll just, you know,
and I had a, I had a first responder contact me recently. And he said, , I've
never realized that this impacted my wife till I read what you were saying. So
he said, I've not known how to talk to her about that. So what they do now is
whenever I make a post, they read it separately and then they get a glass of
wine and they come together and they talk about it collectively.

And he said, you've given us ways of talking about this that we
probably would never have found before. Um, so yeah, Yeah, I'll keep sharing
while it, you know, because it means something to me, but it means something to
someone else. And that, that's even more beautiful. So, um, some of the stuff's
raw and hard.

Like the last one I posted, I don't think Matt will, Matt
should probably not read. , but it was about the loss of intimacy in our, in
our relationship through the injury, through the medication, through the
fatigue, but also, when you care for someone so long and have to remind them to
clean their teeth.

There's nothing romantic about that. Um, so that kind of gets
stolen and lost. And, , that's a hard thing to talk about as well. And I've
been sitting on that one for months. And, , I've had a catch up with a couple
of women in Newcastle and one of them made some kind of quite flippant
conversation, like sort of comment alluding to that.

And we started talking about it and I went, okay, this is, and
I said, oh, look, I've got this post. I don't know whether I'm going to put it
out there. It's pretty personal and, , confronting and, make, you feel really
vulnerable when you're putting those sorts of elements of your life out into
the public.

And they all went, oh no, it's something we all. Ever. everyone
feels it, everyone experiences it in different ways, but we also feel really
silenced about that element of the loss. And I think that's, so I put it out
there and that feedback's been amazing. Like it's just been such a conversation
starter, but a thank you, I've never felt like I've had permission to say this
piece, you know, those sorts of comments.

They are all moments of loss and grief. And I think, you know,
we have to have the understanding and the language around some of this. And I
don't think you find the right language till you just start talking or
journaling or writing. I, I use voice to text a lot or video, uh, voice
messages to myself. And some of it's so messy and crazy and I listen back and
go, wow, you hadn't had your first coffee.

Um, but you know, other than that, but I go, that's it. That
that's, that's the articulation I needed about my experience. You know,
language matters and words are important and powerful. So that's something that
I've really been doing a lot of is just, , five minutes, I just give myself
permission to say anything.

And then I listen back when I'm ready and find the language
that I needed because it doesn't come just swirling in my head. And , you want
to express yourself the right way when you're talking to someone else, or when
you're, you're trying to seek the support you need, but often you're so
overwhelmed and emotional in that moment that you actually can't clearly
articulate Maybe what the experience is or what the ask is.

So I just play around in the background with a lot of that
until I think I've landed on it. And I feel like I've got something that really
does represent what I want to say and how I'm feeling. And then I put that out
there, , because so much of this is, you know, shooting from the hip, , we've
never walked this path before.

We are constantly learning. Um, so I, I really do need to find
the language that best reflects and represents this experience for me. So
that's been something that's been , really, and it's been so cathartic. It's
just been so, you know, journaling, everyone always talks about it. I have
dyslexia, so my journaling can be a little wild.

, I can sometimes not recognize the words that I've written.
So, um, you know, there's, there's, there's a layer there for me. So I think
that's why I've also used voice to text and the video.

So, um, yeah, you find what works for you, , and I would
encourage everyone just to, yeah, to find what works for them and use that time
and use that private time to find that understanding in yourself when you're
living it every day. And it's constant and it's layered. You actually don't
even know how you feel, like, you know, so many people will ask that and you
go, I don't, , I don't know, I don't, I can't find a word for this, it's, it,
it's enormous and it's everything and it's too much and I, I don't know, , and
so refining, but that then feels frustrating and disempowering and And scary.

So, you know, finding the language and finding the words and
finding the articulation, , has been , really helpful for me , to work on that
acceptance because you can't accept what you can't articulate and if you don't
have the language around it, yeah, , where do you start with acceptance when
you don't know what you're accepting?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, that's right.

Sarah U'Brien:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

, Thank
you so much, Sarah. I usually end our conversations, , for people that are
having a tough day right now. Yeah. But I would like to know if you have one
piece of advice for a partner or a child of someone that is living alongside
PTSD. Have you got something that you can say to them to help them along a
little bit?

I know you've probably got a lot of things, you're just going

Sarah U'Brien:

to, you're just going to make me cry because that's, , yeah, that's, that's
everything, isn't it? That's why we, that's why we speak. I suppose that the, ,
obviously the, the big thing that we've always felt is that we're so alone and
you are not, but you also need to be really honest.

for you and you can't deny your experience or your needs
because you love that person so immensely and that their needs seem so
profoundly important because often their needs are about them staying alive.
That does not negate the importance and the severity of your needs and the
needs of your children.

So I would really encourage people to really, really Thank you.
, accept that that's their experience, acknowledge it and own it and see it as
a sense of power. Speak out, ask for help. If it's not to your person that you
love and I totally understand why you couldn't go there and I don't often go
there with Matt.

Find that other person and if you don't feel like you've got a
safe person in your network, there are those social networks. Reach out to
them, you know, go to your GP, start those conversations, but, , don't deny or
make benign your experience because you think your loved ones is more profound
or important.

Um, you know, it's that old adage of, , you can't fill someone
else's cup till your cup is full. Um, you know, we were all running on empty.
Um, so start, start with you because when you're well and you're, grounded and
you're secure and you're informed, you are more purposeful in the care and
support that you give to a loved one.

So it all starts with us and we are equally as important, , as
our loved one that's going through that injury.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your passion
and your passion for change, um, in, in what is a very I'm trying to think of
the right word, complicated system, um, with, with so much emotion attached to
it.

So I really thank you. I, on behalf of our guests that are
listening, that now will feel a little bit more seen and just like that
paramedics daughter, , I really want to thank you for coming on today.

Sarah U'Brien:

No,
thank you so much for the opportunity. It was lovely to, to meet you at the
conference and all the learning that I think we probably did together and
separately , in that couple of days.

, but yeah, thank you for the opportunity for our voices to be
shared and thank you for. the, I suppose, understanding that when we share our
voice, it's not stealing our first responders and it's not adding a layer to
them. It's, it's actually a healing path for all of us. So thank you for
listening. And, and I do, , just send so much love and respect to everyone
that's listening.

Um, and yeah, alone together, , we will get through this and
there are supports out there and reach out. Um, yeah. And, , stay true to you.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Thanks so much, Sarah.

Sarah U'Brien:

Thank
you.

Rosie Skene:

I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
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