Rosie Skene:

Hello,
and welcome to episode 26 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Today is a very different
episode to what I usually release, and it is focused on the significant changes
announced on the 19th of August, 2024, to the TPD entitlements of the New South
Wales Police Force. I use the term significant with intention.

These changes are not only incredibly significant to the
support of our police officers, but also to the families of those serving our
communities. I know that these changes are being felt across NSW Police with
hundreds having left since the announcement was made. I know that there is
guilt being felt by those that have decided to leave at this time.

Friends, please know that there is no need for you to feel
guilty or ashamed. Only you can know the extent of your injury and what you
need to do for your own personal health. I hope that you guys and girls out
there know. That there is an incredible amount of support for you, independent
of the organization.

There are many of us that have left that still care deeply for
the health and wellbeing of our former colleagues and are here for you and your
families. One of the amazing charities doing incredible work is Emerge &
See and I know that I bang on about these girls all the time because I am such
a fangirl.

I'm absolutely obsessed, but they are amazing. I've had Alana
on episode six and in today's episode number 26, I have the wonderful Pia
Schindler on to talk all things TPD. Pia has taken a deep dive into these
changes and is supporting members of Emerge & See with knowledge and tools
to assist them in moving through the process.

Having served 18 years in the New South Wales police force
herself, Pia was medically retired in 2019 as a Sergeant after a hit in the
face diagnosis of PTSD. In her words, one day I was there. The next I wasn't
only with hindsight and years of treatment and post traumatic growth, can I say
that I was suffering many years before I fell off the perch?

Isolated and ashamed. She found her path to recovery with
friend Alana and together, they realized that they were not alone. Many
colleagues were experiencing the same. It's just that no one spoke about it.
Together, Pia and Alana created Emergency, a charity committed to supporting,
promoting, and advocating for the mental health of New South Wales and ACT
emergency services.

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores
journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skeen, a yoga and breathwork teacher
and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to
three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I
understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder
and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter future.
Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly
reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Hi, Pia. Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma.

Thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks, Rosie. You
haven't been on before and I hope to get you on again one day to talk about
your story a little more. But today we're going to talk about the changes to
TPD for New South Wales Police. But before we get started, I would love if you
could just give us a quick rundown of who you are and what you're up to now.

Pia Schindler

Sure. So
my name is Pia. I was 18 years, New South Wales Police. I was medically
discharged in 2019, uh, along with a friend of mine, Alana, who I went to uni
and the academy with, , and we were diagnosed around the same time and soon
realised , that we weren't the only ones that were experiencing, uh, PTSD in
the workplace.

Um, even though you do feel alone at the time, , so once we
figured out our treatment and, , recovery together, because we always say we've
got two half brains. So together we were one brain. So we could navigate
everything, , to the best that we could. Uh, we thought, , surely there's other
people out there that need assistance.

So that's where Emerge & See was created, , an independent
and confidential support, peer led support network, , focusing on four key
areas, medical, legal, financial, and well being, um, to assist other emergency
services, , so we also include, , ambulance, fire, Volunteer services as well.
, just providing one on one guidance and support, , for those that may be
experiencing, , injury in the workplace.

Speaker:

Yeah.
Amazing. And it's such a great organisation, a charity organisation to, and
you've got so many members now we do. And I think you've had an influx having
you in the last couple of weeks as well.

Speaker 2:

We have,
we have, which is, which is great for us, but it's not great for, um, the
person that's obviously going through it, but I'm happy that, um, you know,
I've People are reaching out to us.

Um, and even with this news, I'm grateful that our member base
is growing so that we can provide assistance. Um, you know, someone said to me
the other day, well, what, what can you advise someone in this situation? I'm
like, well, the best. It is to go and seek advice, go see your professional, go
to the GP, go to the psychologist.

Um, so if anything, I think this has probably brought attention
to, , mental health within the emergency services, definitely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Um, all right. So we'll get started on the TPD stuff.

I, I must've come across it pretty early on that day. Um, and I
remember looking at my phone going, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
That week I wasn't doing too well myself and I, um, had gone for a nap because
I do. To break up the day, block everything out.

And then when I woke up, I just woke up to these, like all
these messages just going crazy about like, have you heard of this? , oh my
God, no. Um, and then since then it's just been crazy. Like so many people are
just so concerned about it. I think the pressure of the looming date, , has
really caused stress for people, especially those that are looking to return to
work or in the middle of returning to work.

Yeah. Um, yeah, it's really put people in a really bad
position.

Rosie Skene:

I think
the first thing that we should talk about is. is that history of insurance
within New South Wales police, , and the income protection and then how it's
come to where it is right now.

Pia Schindler:

Um, so
without boring everyone, where we are right now is, , everyone within the
organization's probably heard of pre 88ers, um, you know, they had a good
package and, you know, according to everyone, they sold us out. Um, and, uh, we
got, we got duped with insurance, which I'm hoping that's The term now isn't
going to be pre 24, um, because I certainly don't think that members are
selling, um, those that are still serving out.

Um, so, , after pre 88, , was finalized, they moved to a SAS
system, which still some serving members are still part of, , this SAS system,
but it was put to the members. to the organization. , this police blue ribbon,
this was in 2012. , the government and the organization wanted to introduce
this. , and that was first implemented by first state super, , in 20, 20, 12.

And that cover pretty much has remained the same. The only
change Just being that it was taken, first aid super was taken over by Aware
Super. So it was just a change in the name. , so the policy remained the same,
, in relation to injury or death in the workplace. So you've got one, , the
death policy, , for on or off duty.

, and then in your super benefits, you also had at the time, ,
two TPD, total permanent disability policies. One of which was, , a standard
policy, , through Aware Super, , that everyone just got as part of their
account, right? The second one was, , related to the Police Blue Ribbon
Insurance Scheme, um, and that was of a higher amount.

And that insured, , New South Wales serving police, , if they
were injured. In the workplace and had a total permanent disability and can no
longer could no longer work in that and I think it's important to know that
when we are discussing this, it's also relating to physical injury. I think a
lot of the talk has been around mental injury.

which of course is the much higher stats which we can get into
in a moment. , but the physical injury I think is worth noting. Um, you know,
you have a lot of officers that have got bad back injuries, spinal fusions that
are injured physically on the job that I think people need to stop and think
about, , as well.

, so just to go back, the police blue ribbon then had that and
then on top of that we had , income protection payments. So, if you are unable
to work, , you would receive, seven years income protection payments at seventy
five percent. Of your income. So that remained pretty much in place. That was
the scheme from 20, 2012, , in December 2022, , aware super released to its
members that it was no longer going to continue that one standard cover of TPD
insurance.

no one really had a
choice in that. That was the insurer, that was the insurer's policy, that was
pulled from everyone. So, um, as of that date in December, , police officers
only had that one TPD policy under the police blue ribbon. Insurance and, ,
seven years income protection policy. Um, so what's, what's happened since 2012
is, , and we see it in the stats, is there's an increasing number of claims.

And of course, with the increasing number of claims, premiums
go up, just like a car insurance policy. The more you claim, the more you've
got to pay, right? Um, so over these, this decade, this massive increase in
stats, and I can, I can go into the stats in a sec, has meant that, , the
government, through their original implementation, Implementation of the Police
Blue Ribbon Scheme in 2012 and now paying extra and a lot of money for those
premiums to ensure those police officers.

, the members contribute to that super scheme. I think it's 1.
8 percent of their income. So the government then substitutes that payment. So
the issue that is being, um, . put to the members by the association, is this
concessional cap, , which they're saying is, , the money has been washed out,
income has been washed through this, their super account.

So let me explain this to you. So because, , The, , the
premiums have increased, the government has to pay for that. So the government
is effectively paying the officer in their pay, but the super account is
pulling that because that's the premium, right? The officer never sees that.
money and then the premiums being paid.

So what that looks like to the ATO is that the officer is
receiving that premium payment as a form of income. So that is increasing
people's threshold, which is then decreasing people's ability to apply for
child care. , benefits, family tax benefits, things like that. , so that's what
it means by washing through, , the super.

they have
administratively, administratively, , tried to sort that out over the last few
years. , and it's only become an issue in the last few years because of the
massive increases. I think there's been a, uh, a 300 percent increase, , in
claims. , so the, , Police Association is saying to the members, this is
fabulous.

Look what we've done for you. We've gotten rid of this
concessional cap. Brilliant. This is brilliant. But to what extent and to what
detriment? ,

so

they have announced along with, um, Minister Catley and
Commissioner Webb, On the 19th of August, I believe it was when the news came
out that the police blue ribbon insurance scheme will be no longer effective on
the 1st of October, 2024.

Holy crap. Like, where does that leave us?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

Um,
for me sitting on this side of things, , I'm grateful I don't, I don't feel
that pressure of having to make a decision. , but I am really invested, , in
those that are still serving, um, because it's going to impact them.

Speaker:

Just what
you were saying that , I can see how passionate you are. And when we were just
talking before, when I saw that this had changed my whole body had a response
to it. Yes. And it wasn't. It doesn't affect me because I've been there.

I've done that. I've gone through that process. Thank God, like
you, I don't have to deal with this or make any decisions in relation to
staying or leaving or looking after my family anymore, but I still, like you
have friends. that are within the age brackets, that this is going to affect
hugely. And I even said to my husband, like, what the actual fuck are they
doing?

Because this is, this is not great. I know how it helped me
actually focus on my recovery. I was one of those people who I didn't even know
that it existed. So I applied for mine a few years after I had left because I
didn't even know that I had that entitlement, uh, which I know a lot of people
are like that.

Um, and, and probably until a couple of weeks ago, a lot of
people still might not have been aware that they had that. And now to go
through this and make all these decisions. So yeah, sorry, I didn't want to
butt in there, but keep going for sure.

Speaker 2:

Um, no,
just on that, there are so many members that Alana and I have to sit down with.

and say, log into your aware super, let me show you and the
relief when you see on their face, because they've been serving right for 20
plus years and had no idea that they were actually insured and that they have
that safety net. , And just to go back, we've had this since 2012, this
insurance, we've been paying our contribution to this policy, , since 2012, ,
and they have literally rearippedhed that, , from under us.

just to touch on the
stats, because I think that's important as well. Yeah, so, um, one in three
emergency service workers will experience PTSD symptoms. Because of the
exposure, overexposure to highly traumatic events, right? Um, if you've served
for 10 years, you're six times more likely to experience symptoms.

So, um, you know, you just mentioned it's that age, uh, where
you're looking at probably late 30s, mid 40s.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

Or,
you know, mid thirties, mid forties, where you're starting to see, um, that
it's affecting your life. Um, you know, you've, , you've got maybe extra
pressures at home. You've got children, you've got, um, a mortgage now, , all
those extra vulnerabilities and you're noticing that you're taking then your,
PTSD home with you.

PTSD is great when you're working because you need those, ,
instincts you do, , when you're at work to survive. Um, but it's when you're at
home that you feel, , that you see it, , having a negative impact on your life.
So if we, Look at the stats, , of medically discharged officers, , with a
psychological claim.

The highest, , the highest rank is a senior constable. So, we
all know that senior constables will roughly have 10 years of service, right?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

So
2021, um, 314 senior constables were medically discharged with a psychological
injury, and it goes up in 2022, in 2023, you've got 456, um, that are medically
discharged with a psychological injury.

So the stats are correlating. There's no arguing with that. You
can't argue with that. It's around that time that you will experience it. start
to experience those symptoms.

Rosie Skene:

So
they're all senior constables or that's just the total in police. That's all.
No. Do you want the total? Yeah. So, so 2023, there's 456 senior constables
going off with a psychological injury. They're medically discharged.

Pia Schindler:

So
medically discharged. Yeah. So let me give you the full totals.

2021, you've got a total of all ranks, 426 medically discharged
with a psychological injury.

Rosie Skene:

Wow.

Pia Schindler:

Okay.
2023, you've got a total of 603 medically discharged with a psychological
injury. Now these are, , stats of., that we applied for through GIPA and being
provided by the New South Wales police.

Uh, 2024 is not where, as of May, it was sitting at 247 total,
, amount of discharge. Um, Concerning, right? Considering that we're already 2,
000 under our quota of, um, employees of New South Wales Police.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's true. Um,

Pia Schindler:

the
discharge rate

Rosie Skene:

has been
huge. And then that doesn't account for those, so I think it's 2, 000 under
strength, isn't it, at the moment of actually police employed, but then there's
also the police that are off sick.

Pia Schindler:

And I
do have that. I think it's 1600. Um, it was mentioned in parliament the other
day, let's just say , 1600 round figure.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
think I remember seeing around that number as well. Yeah. That's three and a
half thousand. And then, you know, if we go off the stats of the last few
years, it's going to be about 500 senior constables go off this year.

What's happened in the last couple of weeks since the
announcement?

Pia Schindler:

So the
first two weeks, there was 200 that have gone off. I did hear today that it was
possibly now 300. Um, I can tell you here the number of claims that have been
lodged. So this is not necessarily medically discharged, but the number of
claims put in.

So the 902s, um, would be, sorry, not 902s, it would have to be
a work comp claim. Yes. Yeah. Um, not 902. So 2021, there was a. 1, 088 work
cover claims and in 2023, you've got 1, 140, uh, psychological work cover
claims. So it's increasing. There's no doubt about that. Um, so the stats are
increasing, the premiums are increasing, um, and it's, It's effectively too
much for the organisation , and the government to keep paying out.

Now, I did print off this morning, according to the police
annual report, let me just grab it from my printer, um, the, which is available
on the police website. Um, under budget review section, you've got the net
result for the budget review was adverse to the original budget by 460 million.
Total expenses, excluding losses, were substantially higher than the original
budget of 342 million.

Primarily driven by an increase in work workers compensation
related expenses brackets 100 million and provisions for police blue ribbon
insurance premiums payable in future years brackets 186 million. So that'll
give you an indication of the cost. Um, that is be, um, that the organization
has for work cover claims.

, it's quite significant. Yeah. It's a couple of bucks. Yeah.
Yeah. Just a couple of, couple of million bucks. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

Um,
so, they released this information that, um, the police blue ribbon will be no
longer and it'll be taken over by the EPSS I believe it is. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Enhanced
Police Support Scheme. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yeah.
Because according to them, they want to assist police more in their recovery.
Bless them. Bless. Great. Love it. How are they going to do this?

How? How are they supposed to do it? Really I want to know. I
love the concept of the PULSE program. Yeah. Love it. I love some initiatives
of that. Definitely. Um. How is, um, let's break down these E P P S. Um, I've
got the fact sheet somewhere. Are you happy to do that? Yeah, sure. Yeah,
definitely. I think it's

Rosie Skene:

important because it's, it's, as you would know, when you are going through
something like this, and especially for those that are already off or have,
this could have been the straw that broke the camel's back for them to make the
decision to leave a hundred percent.

Yeah. To then have to go and navigate all of this information,
especially with a psychological injury can be overwhelming. So that's why I
really wanted to get you on so people can, cause I know for me, I love
listening to information. Um, I'm better able to absorb it. So yeah, whatever
information you've got, I'd love for you to share it for sure.

Pia Schindler:

Just
touching on that too, Rosie, like there's massive research, , in moral injury,
, in PTSD and emergency service workers. So, um, to briefly describe moral
injury is, you know, when you bust your ass day in, day out for the
organization and, you know, you get, um, thrown over the coals, whether it's,
you know, at a court hearing, coronial inquest or management or, you know, Um,
so when you say it's the final straw, yeah, definitely the final straw, um,
especially for those people that are trying to, , return back to work, trying
to still, um, you know, live with their purpose, live with their identity.

Um, that's the hardest decision for someone to make is to
leave. Um, the organization because of that culture, because of that identity,
um, and the moral injury component of this is well, fuck it. Why would I bust
my ass now to try and return to work? And you just turned your back on me.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
totally agree with that.

And one of the points that I had like to talk about was this is
that so many people, and I know that a lot of us go off because of management
or because that you don't feel looked after, I guess, by the organization. When
you're going out to bust your ass. And then, so now they've made this change.
Like, how are they feeling about that?

How can you feel good about an organization that's ripped an
insurance policy away from you? It doesn't, it doesn't benefit everybody. Sure.
There'll be some people, um, probably more to the top end. Uh, of hierarchy,
especially that it will benefit because they've been there longer. They hold a
higher rank.

Um, it will help them with their superannuation contributions
and all that stuff, but for the little guys, the senior Connie's that are
leaving in droves from the numbers, um, it would leave a really bad taste in
their mouth in relation to this. Yeah, for sure.

Pia Schindler:

And,
um, not forgetting that that was one of the only insurers.

that would ensure police officers. So I am not aware of, um,
and I had a cons we had a consultation with, um, Lachlan from landborne
partners and he's still yet to find someone, uh, an insurer that will ensure
police. So, um, Yeah, like, you know, I think there was one comment thrown
around, well, you can go get your own insurance.

Well, yeah, but no one's going to insure you. And if they do,
if they do, it is going to be too much for someone to sustain paying that
premium.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
for sure. That's the thing. One, finding it and then actually paying for it. So
yeah, yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. That's why the police blue ribbon was so
good because you didn't have to go and look outside and that's how they sold it
to everyone because yes, we're, you know, good luck finding an insurance policy
to cover you because of the work that you do.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
Because it's high risk. That's right. High, high risk. And there was an
increase, you know, of the claims, um, it's too risky, too risky for the
insurer. Yeah. Um, so with this new EPSS. Um, we still have our death cover,
the death cover under Aware Super. Yeah. Um, look, details have been very
sketchy in terms of what this EP EPSS looks like.

Um, from what we know, um, the seven years income protection
payments will continue. 75 percent of pre injury wage with the option of a
further three years. in the circumstance of a catastrophic event. So there's
several things here to break down, right? So we still got our death policy, um,
which is still being paid through, aware super, uh, which is great.

Um, what can, what can is concerning is the Comments being
made, I'm worth more dead than what I am alive or

Rosie Skene:

injured.
That was one of my initial thoughts. I think it was probably the second thought
I had after this is fine. Yeah. Yeah. Death benefits, especially for younger
workers will be much higher than a possible extra three years.

Much higher. If they get it. Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
So, um, If you look at someone, you know, I think we said the ages, you know,
mid 30 to early forties, you've probably got a mortgage, probably got children.
You've probably got a spouse that might rely on you. You're the primary income
owner, um, and you can't work. Um, what, what's your frame of mind?

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

And if
you have a psychological injury as well,

Pia Schindler:

if you
have, if you Absolutely. So we also know the stats tell us that one every 4. 3
weeks, emergency service worker in Australia will take their own lives. So now
we have this insurance policy that's saying, well, you're worth more to your
family, not here, um, than what you are here.

Um, and effectively you can look after your family. Um, that
just gives me goosebumps.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. It's like, I feel actually physically because of it.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
Um, sorry, we kind of deviated there, but I just feel like that's important to
talk about because suicide is something that needs to be addressed within
emergency services.

We've just had that Royal Commission, Veteran Royal Commission,
into suicide. Um, you know, our stats are really, um, up there as well, um, and
needs to be considered when they're looking at something like this. Um, changes
in policy. Um, so yes, we, we, they're continuing the death cover and now
they're going to, they're saying you've still got your seven years at 75%.

Um, we're gonna help you, um, back into the workplace. Um, now
what they have been sketchy on is that, um, in their FAQs, they say seven up to
seven years. Yeah. So our previous policy in Aware Super was seven years. So
it's seven years at 75%. This says up to seven years. So they've also released
information that, um, it's going to be self managed.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Pia Schindler:

What
does that mean? Details are not clear in terms of that. However, I do have Um,
information has been released that if you were to apply for a catastrophic
circumstance, so this is the extra three years after the

Rosie Skene:

seven,
right? Yeah. After the seven. So probably around six and a half years, six, six
and a half years, you'd have to make that application for the extra three.

Pia Schindler:

Correct. But do we know that for sure? I'm not that's right. Because it says up
to seven years. Do you have to continuously apply for that throughout the seven
years?

Rosie Skene:

And
imagine how traumatic that will be for people because to have to do all this
paperwork. and over again, I know personally for me, yeah, that's traumatic to
have to not even if you're talking about your injuries, um, well what caused
the injuries the events that caused it injuries.

But for psychological injury, just to complete the paperwork to
talk about it, and to feel like you have to prove your injury over and over
again. That's traumatising in itself.

Speaker 2:

100
percent and you know, we're affected by the insurer.

At the end of the day, they are semi independent.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.
Well, we're going

Pia Schindler:

into
an unknown here where, um, there seems to be no clear independence. So this
panel, um, this independent panel, as they say, is composed of a person
nominated by the commissioner of police, a person nominated by the president of
the police association.

And a chairperson nominated by the Minister for Police and
Counterterrorism. I'm sorry, there is no independence in that whatsoever. And
who is advocating for the injured worker?

Yeah,

absolutely. Do we have to hire a lawyer to sit in this panel?
Um, what happens there? Um, and these people The, this panel is not
necessarily, uh, medically trained.

How can they make a determination? Um, they will however
consider various types of evidence, um, reading here. It would include income
or payslips, medical health or health assessments, vocational assessments,
whole person impairment assessments, or any other material deemed necessary. So
my question is, and this has only entered my brain in the last few days, right?

If this is self managed and Commissioner Webb said on Friday in
Parliament that the claims that have been initiated since, , the announcement
will be contested, right? She's already said that. Um, however that may look
like. This independent panel and self managed Are we, is the injured worker
then subject to an internal investigation in relation to Their ability to be
employed.

At what point does this end? Yeah. Um, this is just opening up,
um, so many questions, , and removes the independence of that, of the insurer,
, which, you know, I encourage them to release more information that might
alleviate, , people's concern. So up to seven years, and then you can apply
three years. Um, but during that process.

Who knows what might happen to you. That's

Rosie Skene:

right.
Sorry, keep going. No, no, you go. I was going to say, but it's the three
years, but it's, it's up to a further three years, isn't it? And it's still up
to 75%.

Pia Schindler:

Correct.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So
definitely be using that. I'm sure.

Speaker 2:

And, um,
My other question is, , where does the test lie?

So the current TPD test is, , that you get signed off, , by
doctors saying that you are unable to work, , based on your training and your
education, right? Effectively, , the New South Wales police is, is the test for
this going to be any different? Could they change the test and say, well, you
might not have capability to work as a police officer anymore?

Yes, we agree with that. However, you might have capability to
run the school canteen. Um, where, where, where is that test? We have not
received any information about what that looks like. Um, and that's concerning
to me too, because if they're willing to rip the TPD away from us. Then at what
point are we slowly going to just start the rest of these just being chipped
away, um, and leaves us with little to

no option.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And I guess they've given themselves a few years, haven't they, really, to, to
work it out.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.

And I don't, I don't necessarily believe, um, You know, um,
that this has come out of the blue, you know, we've been negotiating, they've
been negotiating for how long for a pay increase. Where's the government going
to find that money to give that pay increase?

They're asking for what? 20%. I think

Speaker:

that's huge.
Well, they, yeah, they might, might get it out of that 180 million, maybe that
save on the insurance policies. You can only believe, right? Yeah. Who knows? I
mean, it doesn't help. Doesn't help the people. doing the job, pulling on their
boots, you know, when they'd rather be kissing their kids good night.

And yeah, I can only imagine what's going through some of their
minds at the moment in relation to that and how looked after they feel. Like, I
know there's police in there that like, like we said before, they're already
short, they're already well under strength. There's people leaving. I'm sure
more than daily.

Now, there'd be more than one a day leaving. Um, especially if
it's up to 300 in, is it nearly three weeks, I guess. Yeah. A hundred people a
week are leaving. Um, they can't cover first response. People are leaving their
specialist roles to cover first response as detectives on the street in
uniform. And for what, like, why, why would they, like, I couldn't think of why
I would keep doing that job.

If, if they have to do more, you know, with less and they don't
have the support of the guys at the top, I just, I don't know.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
Makes no sense to me. I think I, I think though, like looking back, you know, I
was 20 when I joined. Yeah. I had no obligation to anyone other than, you know,
myself. Um, I didn't, I definitely did not know anything about a superannuation
account at all.

It was my first job I'd ever had in the COPS. Right. . So you
don't, you don't need to know about it until you need to know about it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
for sure. And

Pia Schindler:

that
point where you need to know about it happens very differently for. Everyone,
like, for example, I, I literally fell off the perch, you know, looking back
now, only can I say that four years prior, yeah, I was kind of, I was going
downhill, but that's with hindsight and we now education, um, and treatment.

Um, but I literally had gone into work one day and did not come
back the next. Um, and it happens, it happens differently to people. Um, Yeah,
to have that realization where you actually physically can't get into work and
then how are you going to provide, how are you going to pay for that mortgage,
cost of living crisis?

Um, very, very hard. Very hard.

Speaker:

Yeah.
Mm-Hmm. Oh yeah. I just feel so sad for them.

I know Lachlan talked a lot on the, , podcast that you did with
Sarah, which is so good, actually. Like that was so valuable. , can you, do you
wanna talk about, the stigma for police leaving right now, I think that's so
bad. Um, but I think we've touched on that as well.

Speaker 2:

I feel
like the stigma is changing. Um, slightly the landscape is changing slightly. I
don't know if that's because we've got gen, whatever it is now coming into the
workplace and they, you know, are so open about their, um, troubles and stuff.

, definitely. I feel like it's changing, but the, , the, the.
Culture, , I think is lagging, , around that because you still, I, you know, I
still speak to people and they like, well, but everyone will know, I know, I
know. And it's shameful, like that level of shame and disgust in yourself. Um,
but reality is, , You know, people will only ring you if they're really
concerned about you and want to talk to you.

And then most of the time, three quarters of your team or your
workmates won't even probably think about

Rosie Skene:

you. No.
Which is really sad. It's so sad because you think you are in a bit of a family
there, but, um, the harsh reality is that when you do decide to leave, For your
own benefit and to look after yourself and your family is that most of those
people you won't ever hear from again.

Pia Schindler:

It is
like that, isn't it? It's so your world when you're, when you're working your
shifts, but then once you're removed from that, there's definitely, I think
that isolation you kind of feel like, , Being a cop, like you just want to, you
know, live it and breathe it, , definitely so much, um, more to life, I feel.

Rosie Skene:

And it
is with that hindsight and that ability to look back on it that we are able to
say that as well. I mean, but to anyone that's worried about what other people
are going to think of them, especially within the workplace.

Um, you really shouldn't, because like we said, you're very
like, there's not many that are going to call you even so yeah, just got to
make the decisions that benefit you the best and your family and how you can
look after each other moving forward from this.

And that's something that I did want to talk about is the
impact on family.

Speaker 3:

Um,

Speaker:

that it's
going to have because, you know, I've spoken to partners of, of police, um, and
they not only have to work full time, they are the primary caregiver to the
children because of , I'm talking about psychological injury.

The injured officer is, can't, they just, they don't have the
resources. the ability to take care of anyone, even themselves a lot. So
they're, they've taken on the primary caregiver role of the children. Um, they
working and they also have to look after their partner, um, and making
appointments for them and going to the appointments with them.

Um, and, and that TPD payment was something that could have
alleviated that stress for that partner as well. So they didn't, maybe they
could go back to work part time, um, while they look after everyone else in
their family. But now, they're not going to have that either. So, Where does
that leave a partner?

And then, you know, if we go one step further, and we were
talking about how death benefits are potentially going to be more, you know,
are they going to have their partner in a few years time as well? Yeah. Yeah.
Those effects are far more than just that one person for sure.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Um, and I think, um, as well is that

, it's not the TPD payout. Right? Um, I think, uh, a bit of a
misconception also is that you get that money just, uh, put into your bank
account. He's a nice little Prezi for you. Yeah. You can knock some off the
mortgage. That's not the case.

No, it's not. When you. Apply for a TPD, , claim, and you
receive the benefit, it goes into your super account. So of course, if you're
under the, whatever it is, 60, you can't access that only under extreme
circumstances, which people do fall under that. However, you have to pay tax on
that.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Pia Schindler:

So a
person is looking to pay about 22 percent tax if they take out any amount of
money between 17 and 22 percent tax.

So. Some people, , prefer to leave it in there, , and then set
up some sort of fund then after it. So it's not necessarily people are getting
paid this money, here's your little envelope, nice little red envelope with all
your cashola. That's not the case. , but yeah, some people do pull it out. ,
they do put it on their mortgage so that they can reduce the payment.

So that pressure isn't so high. Um, you know, some people then
might use that to rebuild something for their future. Uh, pay for the schooling
up front. , so you don't have that stress. Yeah, it's definitely not, um, you
know, the mortgage buster that people think it is, especially now with only one
TPD policy.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's
right. And something that I did forget, um, previously to this is that they did
take one of those TPD, um, Insurances away back in 2022. So it's definitely not
as much as what it was from 2012 to 20 20, 20 22. Um, but still it's a
significant amount and it does, I think for me. Thinking about the impact that
it actually had on my life is that it allowed me to not have to focus on money
and worry and stress about jumping back into work.

Um, before I was actually ready to, because I think what can
happen there with that, and I'm not a psychologist, but is that if you do
something like that, go back into work earlier than you're actually capable or
ready for is that your injury will. it again. And who wants that really? It's
given me, um, the ability to have that little bit of extra time to focus
probably more so on my mental health than I had.

Um, in the five years before that, because I was so concerned
with, with what I needed to do next. To be able to provide for my family. Um,
Yeah, it is significant. And I think. For anyone to minimize this as, as being
a win, um, for all police, I think is probably not accurate at all. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

No, I
agree. Um, you know, my TPD payment, you know, I'm coming to the end of my
income protection payments and I'm freaking out because, um, I do.

I see. still struggle. Um, I don't think you ever get over it.
I've learned to adapt, um, you know, and, and, um, try and battle my way
through, but there, I don't think there is any employer that would employ me
full time because I'd need to request naps during the day. Um, days where I
cannot communicate with anyone, um, you know, days where I'm still physically
ill because of my trauma symptoms, there's no way that I could have a nine to
five.

Um, so yeah, that has helped me to alleviate stress and
especially with, you know, children's school fees, uni fees. Um, definitely.
Yeah. I mean, it's not a huge impact. You know, I still worry coming into the
end of my seven years, of course. Um, but it is a, it is a, um, security
blanket there just to get some time.

Um, to help you recover and figure

Rosie Skene:

out how
to move forward. Yeah. I'm coming to the end of mine too. I think I've got
about 16 months left and I'm freaking out as well.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
What

Rosie Skene:

am I
going to do? I know.

One thing I did want to
talk about is the community expectation, , that their police are going to get
looked after. Um, and something that I've seen, , probably more so on LinkedIn,
um, and today is that they can't believe that they're the police who are
employed to look after them and protect them won't be getting as, as looked
after as what they might have thought they were.

Um, and I just think, you know, everyone expects. Police to be
looked after because it's not a job that everyone can do. And that's reflected
right now in both recruitment and retention rates. And I just, yeah, I, I can't
believe how widespread the shock actually is of what's going on right now. And.
Yeah, I just, I don't know.

I don't really know what my point is, but I just feel like
everyone expects for police to be looked after.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

And, and
it just feels like they're not really, not all of them anyway. They're not all
being looked after right now.

Pia Schindler:

Yeah.
I feel like, um, you know, since the charity began, Again, we've got a lot of
community support and a lot of them, um, you know, the majority are shocked to
hear about, um, the culture, the lack of retention, , the high psychological
claims.

Um, you know, just the ins and outs of, you know, every day, ,
which I think. It's great that this is giving the community an ability to see
an insight into the actual organisation and starting a conversation. Let's,
let's talk about it. Let's talk about how hard this actually is because at the
end of the day, they're humans.

Yeah. Um, they go home to their families and they're protecting
you on shift

Rosie Skene:

yeah,
for sure. So talking about Emerge & See, you guys offer so much, um, as a
charity. We do. I keep calling you two crazy because I do. It's amazing. You
are. I think you probably have to be, um, to do what you're both doing. But,
um, actually something, yeah, we, I know last week, you know, there was a big
ring around with psychiatrists to see who had the books open because, um, a lot
of them have their books closed right now.

But there's so many resources that you guys can offer on your
app as well. So can you just give us a rundown just maybe in relation to the
TPD stuff, because that's what we're talking about today. What can you offer
through the app for members at the moment?

Pia Schindler:

Yeah,
so, um, when members are on boarded, they're on boarded into specific groups
according to their answers, um, their onboarding question answers.

so it'll give the person
access to independent resources, , and confidential resources in four key
areas, medical, legal, financial wellbeing. , and we work with a variety of
providers, um, and our aim is to present the members with as much information
as possible. Possible so that they can make an educated decision as to what's
best for them, because not one path of recovery is going to work for everyone.

Absolutely. Um, so that's the intention. , our community base,
we've got now over 3000 members. . Our community base is so supportive, ,
especially recently. , there's nothing negative. It's all totally supportive. ,
and we also, , have increased our connection activities. So, um, our connection
hub. So we run 31 connect hubs throughout New South Wales and our hub leaders,
, have decided to run them more regularly because of this.

, issue. People want to talk about it. New people are attending
wanting to know information. Um, you know, trying to gauge advice. , so yeah,
our connection activities have increased as well. So they'll get put into their
closest hub and they can just go along and have a one to one chat. , with the
hub leader.

Um, our phones have been running hot. So by all means, continue
to ring and ask questions. Um, you know, it's really helped our recovery as I'm
sure it has you Rosie, like doing what you do as well for emergency services.
Um, just trying to provide an insight into what it's like on the outside. And,
, yeah, just trying to support as best we can.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. And it's such a great support. And I, if you're not already a
member, I'll definitely head over there to the website and, and become a
member. Um, there's so many resources that you can search for. Uh, there's so
many questions that have been answered already. So if you have a question, I
strongly urge you to search it up first and then, and then ask it because it's
likely that it's already been answered four times.

Um, and you see that a lot, right? Like that everyone's got the
same questions. So it's, it's such a wealth of information, um, and it's just
an amazing resource that you girls have, I've worked so hard to create for
people. Um, yeah. Congratulations on that. And thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much.
You're going to make me

Speaker 2:

emotional
now.

Speaker:

Well, you
shouldn't be because it's such a beautiful thing and it's helped

Speaker 2:

start
crying 3000

Speaker:

people, you
know, that's a lot of people and that's a massive impact. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. Yeah.
Um.

Speaker 2:

Look, just
because, you know, if I can just say one last message, you know, the, um,
people join the cops because they have a level of service, right?

Right. They want to serve. , whether that's to your community,
to the sovereign, to, you know, your family, , to your friends, I, I feel that
those traits that you have, um, and those skills that you have as an emergency
service worker can be carried to other areas of your life. You're born with
those traits, it was just that, that career kind of suited those traits, um,
and yeah, I, I feel like that's, , where my purpose lies in helping, just
continuing to serve as best as I can,

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah,

Speaker:

yeah, I can
understand that, I get that too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Is there anything else
that we haven't touched on that, um, I think we've Look, I could probably talk
a lot about

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I
know.

Speaker 2:

Parliament
last week, but I think that's a whole different, , podcast and I'm only halfway
through the Hansard transcript.

So,

Speaker:

yeah, I
know, I actually tried to have a look at that. Yeah. I mean, even, you know
what, I actually, I might edit this out, I don't know, but I was listening to
the Ray Hadley interview with Commissioner Webb, um, earlier. Did you hear
that? No, I didn't. Was that today? Uh, no, I think it was, I think it might've
even been the day that it was released.

So back, it was back a little bit and I got the clip online
and, um, Commissioner Webb said it's a win win. No one will be worse off. And I
just thought, yeah, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Right. There will be some people that
won't, it won't be a win win for, unfortunately. And um, yeah, I'm just, my
thoughts are with the people that

Pia Schindler:

are
Who is she identifying as the win and the win?

The win for government because they don't have to pay that over
186 million?

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's a
win. It's a win if, you know, the cops do get a pay increase because of it, but
look at what we've lost.

Speaker:

But then the
pay increase will have to go into, um, an exorbitant insurance fee so they can
cover themselves in case they are permanently affected in the long run.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

I am so passionate and it's so, it's not funny at all, but I
think you and I, because we've been through this whole process. And we're
looking at this from an outsider, but also having been an insider, we can see
how horrible this, this really does have the potential to be for people.

And I think that's why, you know, I know that you've been like
around the clock getting all the information you can about it for people
because I'm sure, like you said, your phones are running hot and,

and

you know, I've, I've. I've been trying to educate myself as
well because, you know, we still have friends that call you and go, you know,
what do you, what do you think I should do?

Like, I don't know, like, let me have a read of what's going
on. And so I'm grateful that you've come on because I know that you have a lot
of information, um, and you're in a position where you can convey that to
people that might not have the ability to absorb the information otherwise. So,
yeah. Thank you.

Thanks for reaching out and having me on too.

Speaker:

It's, um, it
was so good. And if, if anyone wants to hear, um, the Emerge & See episode,
which covers some more stuff and like you said with Lachlan, I'll link to that
in the show notes. Awesome. Yeah, it was really great. I listened to it as well
and I thought that was fantastic.

Yeah. Good. But thank you for everything you're doing. I won't
make you cry again.

Speaker 2:

don't make
me cry.

Speaker 7:

Just
adding this post recording because it is something that I think is important
information for people to know. I've asked Pia because I forgot to mention it
during the recording. And the question was this, do injured workers need to see
a psychiatrist prior to October 1 or is it that they need to have done their
last shift and have no capacity on their work cover?

Work capacity certificate, which is issued by a GP. And her
response was no, they don't have to see a psych before the date, just
completely out of the workplace. Please let me reiterate what Pia said at the
top of the episode, and that is to go and see your professionals. Speak to your
GP. Get yourself a WorkCover solicitor, see a financial advisor.

If you need any help at all, finding one of these people to
help you, who understands the systems of the New South Wales police and the
WorkCover situation and TPD, head over to the emergency app. They've literally
got lists that you can scroll through and find someone hopefully in your area.
But a lot of them work over Skype now anyway.

Okay. But head over there, there's so many resources, the girls
are always there to help and it just makes the process a little more
frictionless. I hope that you found this episode helpful, even though that Pia
and I and our PTSD went on a few little tangents, but I hope that you found
some stuff in there to help you on your journey.

I will link in the show notes and for those of you who don't
know where the show notes are, they're actually Under this episode, under where
you hit play, I usually have a bit of a content warning. If you just keep
scrolling, there'll be an episode description. And then underneath that is
where I put all the links to everything that I mention, uh, within each
episode.

So just keep scrolling down if you're on your phone or on your
PC, wherever you get the podcast. Scroll down, you'll find all the links. I
also have links to mental health resources on there. The episode that Pia has
released with Sarah Ashcroft on the Emerge & See podcast, I'm going to link
to that as well.

With all of that information, hopefully you have enough there.
And if not, like I said, head over to Emerge & See app, search the
questions. If it's not there, what you're looking for, ask the question and
there'll be lots and lots of help for you there. Have a great day. I really
wish you the best. Please, please do what you need to do right now to take the
best care of yourself and your family, regardless of what you believe others
may think or say about you.

Remember that those that mind don't matter and those that
matter don't mind. I am sending you all lots of love.

Speaker 8:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while
you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate
your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at
Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and
workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skeen, join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.