Rosie Skene

Welcome to
Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Brad Cooper:

like I
said to you before, I don't know, , If we've got a script or a tangent, I think
we're going to bounce all over the place. I've

Rosie Skene:

got a,
I've got a very loose thing here to keep us maybe a little bit on track.

But

Brad Cooper:

that's,
that's probably good. Um, but yeah, like I reflected when I found this and, and
I listened to your story one that broke me for days. And I'm like, why? But I
think I did a lot of work on it. And it's like, well, I've always been the one
to help others and to try and circumnavigate that damage and that injury.

And especially when I was working in the policing where I was
and plus with my union time there. I was always out trying to put that balloon
under someone so they wouldn't fall or the big airbag or something or just be
there to protect them from the shit and help them out. And then I heard your
story and thought, fuck, they've done it to you too.

You know, like you're the most sweetest, energetic, wonderful
bloody person out there that always comes in. Kind of like another one we
worked with at, at Inverell, , Kelvin . He never went anywhere without a big
fat smile on his head and he would have total positive attitude. But, you know,
in the background, he had a busy life going on.

He absolutely does. Yeah. Always bought it. He always came ,
with the goods. And yeah, it really hit me, I guess, that I couldn't, you know,
it's like, well, no, it's not meant to happen to people like you. It's meant to
happen to others. Like, you know, it's that, I don't know if it's, you know, I
don't know what it is.

I'm still working on that.

Rosie Skene:

I think,
yeah, I think after talking to other people, I think it is that sense of care,
like, I think, knowing what I know now, I think it gets most people. , I just
think it maybe hits a little harder for the ones that care a lot. . , because
you know, there's cops out there that don't, , and it is just a job and I think
they have maybe a little bit more resilience 'cause they don't allow it to
affect them so much.

, But then I know those people as well have said, you know, I'm
good. I'm good. It's never gonna get me. And then it's got them to. So I don't
know. I don't know. Yeah,

Brad Cooper:

absolutely. And, and yeah, I've been to too many police funerals, where that's
exactly the case. Everyone's like, how did this happen? And. And they're just
stoic until they just can't do it anymore.

But, um, since listening to a few other podcasts,, of yours and
hearing that, okay, well, it's the same treatment

that we all get. And hearing from other people, some I knew,
some I knew of, some I didn't know, but the stories are the same, you know, you
start your career, wow, and it's almost like a meme. And then after a couple of
years, you're like, wow. And then after 10 years, you're like, oh, wow. And
then, you know, you just sort of get in there going, oh, wow, I'm still getting
kicked in the guts.

Oh, wow. You know, and I often joke that I needed my
bulletproof vest more in the station than outside. But yeah, after listening to
a few of those, it was like, well, They're getting treated the same, but
there's not that close a connection or knowledge of the individual like I had
with you and many other people.

So it's like, okay, well, it's, it's the same. It's a shame,
but it still keeps happening. And even in line with the new, , TPD changes, um,
that's, that's a bookmark event. But if I can, and you can bring me back or
make notes, if I can waffle when I was doing my time. As an organizer with the
Police Association, that was from 2018 to 2020.

And that was on the back of being a branch official for Yonks,
and being involved in the, um, many campaigns they wanted to shut down D&
D. Uh, including 2012 when it changed, and then there was another one that
changed recently, and now this one. In that time with the union, , it was very
clear that this was an unsustainable model.

Like, Pre 88 went out the window, too costly. SAS went out the
window, too costly. We get the blue ribbon, so it started at gold medal, bronze
medal, uh, silver medal, bronze medal, we get bronze medal, blue ribbon. And
that was becoming too costly because there was no other alternative.

Yeah.

Then walks in the idea of the Optional Disengagement Scheme.

Ripper, what a great idea because the, the, um, hierarchy back
then and then moving through to the current hierarchy are all in favour of
treating cops right. We'll get to that part next.

Rosie Skene:

The
hierarchy, sorry, the hierarchy of the Association or the New South Wales
Police?

Brad Cooper:

Well,
both, but the hierarchy, uh, the then Commissioner and then the current
Commissioner now, Karen Webb.

Are all for, we've got this culture where we're not looking
after the cops. We need to fix that. Yeah. And more importantly now with Ma'am
Webb, like she's brilliant at it. But it's still not getting through to where
it needs to be. There's a lot of cultural change.

So

optional disengagement, perfect. And being involved in that,
the aim was, as I understood, and for my limited interaction with it, um, to
give the cops that have got between five and 15 years, because that's the
demographic that they are mostly leaving,

uh,

with HOD or resignation, give them an opportunity to exit the
career with dignity, Give them a year funding to basically transition to
another career.

So if you walk out with 150 K with a tax benefit, and you can
put that into a uni trade or some other kind of. employable skill transition,
uh, with the support of the cops, then you don't go down the injury path and
you don't ruin your life by being labeled as having a PTSD or a PDS or, or just
cranky.

Um, and then I'm like, yeah, this is great. And I left, I left
the union, went back to the cops, went out. And then while I'm dealing with
what happened to me and my last day of service, I'm hearing all these pre 88
and SAS members. Getting the optional disengagement. And I'm like, hang, hang
on a minute, you're about to get a golden egg.

Yeah. Why are you also tapping into this and giving the other
cops that are at risk that need it, it didn't make sense. And I, I was
extremely angry. Um, not that I could do anything about it at that stage. , But
yeah, it wasn't until later that I found out. It's still, I haven't verified
it, but my information is that purely due to tax ruling, which is the , ATO,
federal government, their fault, that they wanted to have a tax regulation or a
tax cut for the cops to take it.

But they said, unless you open it to all employees, you don't
get the tax deduction. Now that I don't know if that's fact or fiction, it
makes sense. It does make sense. But you know, it's like, The union getting
slammed for a number of other things, the leading senior constable that was
meant to keep, , coppers on the beat, , to keep that experience from getting
into things, they get the benefit.

And then suddenly it's gone through every speciAllyst command
union got blamed for that. I don't have enough knowledge to know where it's at,
but I think a similar kind of pattern, you come up with all these great ideas.
And then the theory of yes, minister or yes, prime minister comes in, if you've
ever seen that show, a good idea goes in, it gets manipulated by a whole lot of
officials and then comes out, the poor cousin of its former self.

I think the same thing's happening. I don't blame the union or
the cops for that, , decentralisation of the leading senior constable thing.
But it's just another thing where ideas from the field. Come up to show the
other management, the government and everything. Here's an idea of how you can
treat cops better, give them respect and ensure retention and recruitment.

And then suddenly it gets taken away from what it started as
and becomes something different that then forces, I believe my opinion puts
resentments back on the organizations, both resentment on the government. And
then those cops are left thinking, yes. I mean, imagine sitting there going,
I'm nearly about to go off the perch.

I've tried to talk to people. I'm scared of going HOD because I
don't feel I'll be supported. Here's an optional disengagement. I might have an
opportunity to get out cause I can't leave at this salary. And suddenly support
myself and my kids for a few years while I retrain. This is a great idea, only
to have it taken out from under ya

and then, boom, you're like, well, what have I got now? Here's
a 902. I'm suddenly off work. And how do you fix that? It's going to take a lot
more time. So I guess with the current change on the TPD, The writing's been on
the wall for many, many years. You know, they changed it in 2012, it was an
uproar. 2009, we had a massive uproar.

Recently, again, there was another one, and now this has
changed again. The writing's been there, but it's like, A simple thing, stop
treating cops like shit inside and that will, that will help. And I don't mean,
I don't know who listens and you know, I hope you've got a great audience and
if Karen Webb's listening, great respect to you, ma'am, because I know, , the
ethos is to change that culture and to treat people right.

But there's still that, that middle between the commissioner,
deputy commissioner. And the supervisor or the inspector that's still in a lot
of areas have a lot of work to go. But I think once that is, that culture is
changed and and , we start treating cops like, like they're valued employees
instead of botter.

Yeah, there's so many stories of coming back from doing the
worst job and then getting in trouble because you haven't filled a diary in two
weeks ago, or you're not wearing a hat, or, you know, I'm got in trouble for
being seen on TV or something ridiculous. It's just all that stuff is like, it
is the death by a thousand cuts.

It's those little things that wear you down and suddenly you
just go, sorry, I can't do it. Or like me, you just go and blow up somewhere.
But, you know, that happens.

Rosie Skene:

To
think, there's so much.

I like that, I like that death by a thousand cuts bit because,
, it's so true though. Like, just. You go to a multiple fatal, or you go to
something real bad that you don't really want to do that day, like, Police
don't love doing those jobs, there's not many people that would enjoy that, and
yeah, you can be good at your job and go and do them, but then to be berated
for rubbish, absolute rubbish, is, is where a lot of people do lose it,
unfortunately, and how much of that can you take, , And why should you be
expected to take it?

I mean, we're all human at the end of the day.

Brad Cooper:

. I mean, you sign up to be a cop and you know, I mean, the glossy ads and the
videos are really cool. And, you know, I still remember that he ain't heavy
from the eighties, that, that, um, advertising commercial. And every time the
song comes on, I get chills, um, because it meant something to me.

And it was about being in the role to make a difference, to
help people and do stuff. Not once did they show. Oh, the other crap that went
on in the background, , definitely

Rosie Skene:

not on the
pamphlets, is it?

Brad Cooper:

And they
say, Oh, you signed up for it. You knew what you were getting into. What do you
expect? Yeah. Okay.

I would go back tomorrow. If I could go out on the truck, deal
with dead uns go on, go on, do death messages, go on, help families, go on,
pick things up, go on, get stabbed again, go on, walk into armed robberies and
do all that shit. If I knew, when I went back to the station, I was not going
to get an aggressive death by a thousand paper cut response.

Instead, I'd be like, hey mate, you okay? What's happened?
What's your job? Okay, well Sit there and do what you need, take a lunch break
and then get back out on the road once you're done. Instead, you get total
difference in that kind of stuff. So, I mean, I'd go back tomorrow if that was
possible, but you just know, sadly, it's not.

And I know there's pressures on supervisors. I was one. There's
pressures on upper managers. I mean, they've done that, but it doesn't, it
doesn't, if it was a, um, a private entity, it would be broke many years ago.
It's like people would just be exiting. And that's sadly what I see now.
They've got a lot of vacancies because of.

, the hurt on duties. It took me 18 months to get out. And that
wasn't from me. I did spend a few months wanting to go back and then, , we did
a role play. I found a really great psychologist up in Brisbane. He used to
work with Blue Hope, but now he's just Elevation Psychology, Mark Kelly. And
he's an ex AFP cop and he went through BAlly bombings over there.

He's seen and done everything and then become a clinical
psychologist. Great So it was really good to find that support. , And through
this, he said, all right, you want to go back? All right, let's do some role
plates. And, , that was the scariest 45 minutes of my life. He knew what to do.
And he's like, all right, you've just gone out and here's this bloke doing this
and you've done this.

How are you going to react? All right, right, right, right. And
he just kept increasing the layers. And then he started putting the
micromanagement in. And then, and by the end of it, I'm screaming at him and
bloody carrying on. He's going, okay, let's just time out. He's going, just
check your pulse. And I was.

And through the roof, I'm like, Oh, and he's gone. So how do
you think you'd go returning to work tomorrow? And I said, I reckon I'd end up
being charged.

Yeah.

Yeah. Probably how it's going to end up. So it's like, yeah,
it's like, okay, tapping out. I'll, uh, I'll agree, but it still took a long
time. So I've heard this 250 cops went off after they announced the TPD change
for 1st of October.

Fact or fiction, either way, 250 off the books. They're not off
the books yet. No, no. They're still taking up first response numbers. They're
taking up specialist numbers. They can't be replaced due to the over strength
issue that has been in play. And I've, I got wind, I got understanding of that
in the union, but it's far too complex for me to A, remember, or B, discuss,
but it is a thing.

It is a problem. It turns out with budgeting and all this other
crap. but yeah, you, you lose 250 cops. 250 cops in the Metro Sydney Basin
alone, or even New South Wales, New South, Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong,
that's what the power stands for. Um, you lose 250 cops out of that, that is a
heck of a lot of impact on your first response, and that is going to stay there
for at least 18 months.

Yes. So, it's not a good idea, it's not a good way out, but for
those individuals, what's their option? If they're losing the benefits. And if
you're going to sign up to the COPS now, I still don't discourage people from
doing it. I, it was the greatest career I've ever had. 21 years. Absolutely
love it. Some great friends like yourself.

Some great experiences that we'll get to in the humor part of
this. Um, and it's, it's certainly awesome. But. Yeah, you need to know how to
look after yourself because until the change comes, they're not going to do it
for you. And a lot of that is now through mindfulness that people used to go,
Ooh, woozy.

What's that shit? No worries. Um, choir practice used to be
great and still is to a point where you just go and solve the problems at a
pub, you know, I

Rosie Skene:

agree
with that to a point to, you know, um, that way of connecting with your
teammates, especially he's fantastic. And you don't have to get slaughtered
every time to do that.

Um, I can't remember. I was either listening to a podcast or
reading a book or something. Someone I was talking to, because they were
talking about this. And then there was changes, you know, like if you organize
an event. Because they're called events because it's all with work people.

Um, if you organize something, then everyone has to be invited,
you know, otherwise it's bullying.

Brad Cooper:

Oh,
yeah. You

Rosie Skene:

know,
that sort of stuff came in, um, and then that, I think that's how it sort of
dropped off because you're actually not going to get along with everyone on
your team. And that's okay. That's okay.

That's

Brad Cooper:

right.
Exactly right. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
So, I mean, I, I, I agree. I agree. When that sort of stops, like having a few
beers after an event, and we'll talk about my one, my one, I put on a couple of
cartons, you know, because I had a bit of a day. And, um, and that's what you
did. And we all defragged off it and it was good.

It was great. Um, and we dealt with it at that time. And I
think what happens now is that doesn't happen. You go back to work, get berated
for not wearing a hat on TV. And then you go home to your partner and you don't
talk to them about it because you don't want them to know. And then it just
stays within you.

Until, like, you get all filled up and then you blow your top.

Brad Cooper:

Or you
go on, you go and have a bender. Yeah. That's the left and right front. That's
right. Yeah. I, I think a lot of people you've spoken to, and I know your
journey, my journey is very, very similar. It was, it's the other release. It's
like, I'm just going to do this to, to stop the thinking, to numb the pain, to
numb the voices and to, to be able to get to sleep.

But you're not, you're not sleeping and I've done a lot of
research when I had to step out of my alcohol connection. Um, a lot of
research, you're not, you're basically, it's like an anaesthetic. It's a
chemical anaesthetic. You're not sleeping well, so you're not resting, but you
don't hear the voices. Um, hopefully you hear the need to go to the toilet or
to vomit, otherwise that'll end up a different story.

But, you know, you don't hear the voices, so you knock yourself
out with the grog. And. And then you start all over again. Yeah, it's a
slippery slope because it, it is a bitch of a thing to get away from alcohol.
It is, it is a hard thing and I'm still fighting with it, but a lot better now.
.

With one particular time, everything I did involved alcohol,
with cops, it was all going out and everything involved alcohol, because it
was, that's what you did. And it was like mini choir practices to go on. Yeah,
let's have a chat. Let's do this. I was doing that six nights a week. Yeah,
that's a lot of choir.

That's a lot of choir. I had a sore voice from singing. Yeah,
too much singing. And then, you know, you sort of get home and I've talked to
my wife and I'm sitting there shaking because I wanted a beer and she's like,
it's a Wednesday. What are you doing having a beer? Well, why can't I? And then
you have that defensive argument.

But yeah, that's, that's grog. It's not a nice thing. But the,
, yeah, the mindfulness practice and all that kind of woo woo stuff that no one
really did back then. I think it's starting to come in and you've got our
agencies like Fortem that have come in line. Um, the police to their credit
have started this other wellness thing that was a bit clunky to start, but I
think it's getting better.

It was really hard when
I started, um, trying to do that.

Cause my, when I flipped a switch, I, I just went to the doc
and said, look, I'm feeling a bit shit. Give me your opinion. And I sat there
for an hour and she's like, right. Questions, answers, questions, answers with
one hour appointment. I couldn't believe it. She said, I need you to come back
tomorrow. I'm like, what, what's, what's my result?

What am I doing? What am I going to do? Just come back and see
me tomorrow. I'll make time. Um, and we'll go from there. And she posed a lot
of situations to me because I'm a little bit of an over thinker. Okay, I'm a
lot of an over thinker. Thanks dear. Um, she posed a lot of situations to me
and I'm like, righto.

And then I went back the next day and um, I just lost my shit.
I burst into tears and I couldn't, I couldn't cope. She was asking me these
questions, I was answering and then the reAllyty hit of. I don't think I can go
back, at least not now. And that was a very hard reAllyzation when I'd been,
you know, managing this group of people.

I had vested interest in their well being. I was trying to keep
them afloat. And then the doctor's going, you can go back, but you won't be
there for long. And how much worse do you want to get? Or what happens if your
decision that was, what happens if a decision you make or don't make Affect the
life of someone on your team or someone on the street.

And then they're challenged. How are you gonna live with that?
And I'm like, yeah, okay. Box of tissues, please. That'll do. Yeah. And, and
that was it. She put me off, started me on some medication and um, that was my
last, last ever time. And that was December 20, 21. 2020. Oh shit. I dunno, A
couple years ago.

Yeah.

Anyway, that was, that was a significant point. Um, but back
then you couldn't stop the thinking. You couldn't stop. It was just constant.
And it was so hard to sleep. You're wired. You're just nervous energy to the
point where, you know, something's gonna go wrong, you're going to make
yourself physically sick.

Because the problem with, , thought energies, emotion is
they're all, here we go into a woo woo space. They're all energy. Yeah.
Everything's

Rosie Skene:

energy.
A

Brad Cooper:

hundred
percent. So it's, it's. When I used to get stressed or worried, my, my legs,
like my quads had burned up and I'd have to go and do something or my legs
would bounce and stuff.

And then I learned through weightlifting, okay, you do your
squats, you burn it out, and then suddenly you feel a little bit better and I'm
like, that's weird. Must be because I did a workout. I don't know. It was yonks
later that I learned the somatic connection between, , psychology, emotions,
and, and the energy in the body.

So getting that to release. It is really, really hard

So I think it was about trying to, trying to manage that when
you learn that, that the energy you hold through your emotions has a somatic
connection, which means it's the energy is transferred through your body and it
will store somewhere or release.

And often it will store. And if it does store and you hold it
too long, it, it risks causing. An injury to something. And I've known people
that have died with injuries that are related to this. They won't prove it, of
course. Others have gained cancer because of the worry. And it happened in the
stomach and the bowel because that's where largely your worry is.

It's that gut feeling. It's that strange sensation and
butterflies in your gut. That stress, that anxiety. It starts there. If it's
not released, it can form into something. That will become something you don't
want it to be. And that's what I was very mindful of not wanting to have. Um,
so to try and find a release, the medication helped reduce all that for me to
be able to take advantage of counselling.

Yes. Otherwise, you're just going around in circles. And then
the counselling guided me to mindfulness, presence, , meditation, all that
stuff, which I've dabbled in before. But I've been on, been on some funny
meditation apps that you try and get. And, um, You love it. You sit there and
go, right, I'm into this.

Okay, I'm going to try it. No one knows where I am. I've got
headphones on. I'm going to sit here quietly. And you hear this voice, quiet
music in the background. Hello, we're going to meditate today. All you need to
do is breathe and stop any thoughts coming into your mind. And I'm like, fuckin
what how do I do that?

And then bang, it stopped. It was like, nah, this isn't going
to work very well

at all for

Rosie Skene:

us. I
think meditation, like that word and those types of practices. It's so
incredibly difficult for first responders. Yes. And I actually don't teach
that. I won't teach meditation to first responders because it's so hard to sit
still.

It's the mindfulness and the little snacks of mindfulness that
you do and you build up that practice. That's where it's at, I reckon, for
first responders and taking those little tiny moments in your day to just stop
and have a look. Because we can't stop, we can't stop what's going on up here
in the head.

Like you said, there's a lot of energy being held within the
body because the body keeps the score. Have you read that book by Bessel van
der Kolk?

Brad Cooper:

No,

Rosie Skene:

it's all
about the somatics and how the body holds trauma. You love it.

But it's so true. Like when a first responder has got so much
rumination happening, but also so much energy, they physically cannot sit still
and switch off the brain.

Like two things, all these things are happening. It's crazy.
Yeah. So I get what you're saying about the meditation because it's really
difficult.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah.
And that's, that's the whole basis of it. Like this, this generic episode, just
clear your mind and don't think of anything and focus on your breath. And I'm
like, mate, you're, you're gone.

Thanks. It took a while. But then. Learning that it is, the
whole practice of meditation is your focus and as you practice, which means you
can improve, it doesn't mean you're going to get it right first. You practice
it and it's about breathing in, breathing out, you take the deep breaths in,
the deep breath out, that resets the parasympathetic nervous system, it resets
the vasovagal nerves, I've done a lot of psychological research on this since,
I understand it holistically, but I still struggle with it, but I'm better
because it is a practice, but it's about, once I learnt that There was another
one I heard, and I won't do the woo ah voice, but it was basically, yep, okay,
focus on your breathing.

Breathe in through the nose, count to four, hold for two,
breathe out through the mouth, count for four, blah, blah, blah. And any time
your mind wanders, which it will, and this was a key change, giving yourself
permission for your mind to wander. So you'll be like, okay, breathing in, uh,
breathing out. That prick the other day, he didn't do anything.

He was doing this. And then it's like, oh yeah, I'm breathing,
breathing in. Breathing breathing. Right. Yeah. Back to breathing out. Don't
pass out. Oh, I remember that asshole down the road, blah, blah, blah. Giving
yourself permission to allow your brain. You can't stop thinking. It's going to
think. Yeah. But the whole idea of this within mindfulness and meditation is to
practice bringing your attention back to breathing.

And the longer you do that. The longer you can focus on
breathing between the brain gaps, and my brain gap keeps going on, and it
depends on what's going on on the day, but it's all still beneficial because
you're able to just stop, take that deep breath in, deep breath out, because
often, as everyone in this space would know, when you're in that heightened
awareness, your shoulders are up, your chest is tight, you're hunched a bit,
you're in the fight or flight, you're ready to go, jaws clenched, your asses,
everything's clenched, And the last thing you're doing is deep breathing.

So you're in the shallow breathing space, which reduces your
oxygen, brings in your tunnel vision, target fixation sets. All this stuff
happens and you don't even know it until you can stop and do a couple of deep
breaths. And then suddenly you're like, Oh, look at that. I can see. Yeah. I
guess to, to doing that.

And another point that I found Um, in, in way of your, you
can't sit still and the energy is, is find what you like. Like I did walking
and then I was sitting on rock walls and then, you know, all that stuff, but I
found on a bike, on mountain biking, going on a trail in a mountain bike. If
anyone does that, you have no choice but to focus on what you're doing.

So it is very mindful because if you take your focus off, like
I did once you crash, it hurts. You don't want to do that again. But putting
that focus into, right, I'm going here, going there, you're watching your
lines, you're burning your energy, you're breathing hard, you've got one thing
on your mind, you don't have space to ruminate.

You don't have space to ruminate on what's happened at life,
what's happened at work, what's happened with how you've been treated, and
everyone's been treated unfairly. So something like that, find your, , key,
whether it's riding, running, walking, , something you can do. That just takes
that focus.

Surfing, I believe, is really good, but I'm not really good at
it, so I haven't found that to be a gig, but I tried running. That doesn't work
because I'm a 50 year old that's treated my body like an amusement park, not
like a temple, so my knees and feet don't work too well, but cycling has come
good, , and the meditation, trying into yoga, same thing.

So all that stuff is It is good in that release space to just
try and give you a gradual release. It won't happen overnight, you know. No. As
you would know, but it's just something that I guess it's a different way of
looking at the traditional means of, Oh, we need to do mindfulness. We need to
do meditation.

Yeah. Okay. But put it in phraseology that first responders
understand. A good thing I keep remembering is when I first had something and I
was told about this, I went outside. And, and just laid on the grass and I'm
like, right. And then there was a lady beetle there. And just to watch a lady
beetle a few inches away from me while I'm laying in the grass, having a really
shit day.

But my attention was drawn to watching this beautiful lady
beetle. And I took a photo of it . And I'm like, okay, that's, that's a simple,
mindful tool that you can do stuff. You just go out a couple minutes later.
You're like, okay. And. As I told people before, it's, I think you said it, I
can't remember how you said it, but it is, it's like you do one tiny thing a
day, and if that's all you do, that's great, because it's better than not doing
it, and then that night, you will have a little bit better sleep, because it's
akin to you.

Your brain, you've got the foot on the pedal the whole way at
flat chat, you're going into corners, just barely making it, you're doing all
this stuff, you never get to take your foot off the accelerator. When you have
a moment of mindfulness or where you can take a deep breath and you focus on
something for even a split second, It takes the gas off the thoughts, and it
depowers them, um, or disempowers them for a moment.

And you don't notice it instantly, but if you keep doing it
every day, those gaps get longer and longer. Your sleep gets better, you
gradually feel better. That's my experience, and those that I've helped.
That's, yeah, in that mindful space, that was really good, and I still use that
now. I just try and reset every day and I had a plan, oh man, there's a dude
that does the savers. It's six, 10 minute steps. He took, I'm not sure if it's
how Elrod or someone else, but he had a big midlife crisis and a cancer
breakdown and all this stuff. And he went researching for the most popular or
the most successful people.

And what they do in their day. , and he took a bit out of each
of them and made six 10 minute intervals and they're called savers. So the
first one's silence, 10 minutes, silence, meditation, A is affirmations. You go
through these affirmations. They're really not cool on them. I don't like them.
Didn't work.

, V is visualisation. So you sit there and you visualise how
you put your day is going to plan out. Sounds a bit woofy. Um, E is exercise.
So it's 10 minutes of exercise. R is reading and S is scribing. So like
journaling.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Brad Cooper:

Bye. So
there's an hour, six, 10 minute things, and it has a great impact on a number
of people.

But like everything, I make it my own. I do my meditation, I do
my writing, my journaling, to do list. That is a really great thing to focus
on. A to do list. Absolutely. I thought it was horseshit because my wife was
telling me all the time and I'm like, ah, blah, blah, blah. But you get into
the habit and you do the to do list.

And even the most simple things like get out of the house for
five minutes. That was tricky. , putting that down on paper and then just, um,

Rosie Skene:

yeah,
ticking it off at the end of the day. That dopamine hit. It's, I'm all about
it. I'll tell you what, I've spoken about this particular thing a couple of
times.

I've been in a couple of group coaching things and it's the one
thing that I would tell people right at the start, start making a list and put.
every single thing that you need to do on it and even put micro lists on it. So
if I, I still do it because I love it. Laundry is separated into put the
washing machine on, hang out the laundry, bring the laundry back in and fold
the laundry.

So there's four little things that I get off that I've done
because in those early days, I think you find The days just sort of go and you
don't feel like you've achieved anything at all.

Brad Cooper:

Your
partner comes home and goes, what did you get up to today? And I've got no
idea. I don't know.

Rosie Skene:

And

Brad Cooper:

you feel
useless.

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

And I
had, , my youngest daughter, Ash. So she was only one when I was diagnosed. So
obviously I had her to care for and she filled up a lot of my day, but it was
still like that. , I don't know what I have done today. And it just felt like I
was, I don't know, just useless really, like I wasn't achieving anything, which
is hard for me and I'm sure it would be for you too,

Brad Cooper:

um,

Rosie Skene:

very
difficult.

So making a list and sticking everything on it. And what I
started to do was put things that were important to me at the very top and
making sure I did those first. And that was usually training, , some sort of
breathwork yoga, you know, like any one of those things for that day. had to do
it first and foremost.

And I still do that now to this day. It's not on a list
anymore. It just is a habit, but I would make sure that I would do that first
and then I'm good for everyone else. Um, but at list a hundred percent, like
you got to do it.

Brad Cooper:

It makes
such a difference. Yeah. And I found, I went through a couple of months without
doing my morning routine.

, and it was really, I really started to struggle. And even
Ally noticed it and she's like, you need to get back into it. But we've been
traveling a lot. We had to just. leave where we were and go traveling to get
away from certain triggers. , so we've had 18 months on the road in a caravan,

it's awesome. Um, and sometimes it is awesome, but also
depending on where you are, you don't necessarily have the ability to sit down
and do stuff for this, this hour or go and exercise. You've got other things
happening, but now it's exactly right. You put yourself first. And you have to
put your life jacket on you and the oxygen mask on you before you can deal with
anyone else.

So, absolutely. We've come back to that now and I'm back in my
routine and feeling a whole lot better. Um, there's still a lot of stuff going
on that you manage, but it's easier to manage.

Rosie Skene:

, Coops,
usually I start with, but we've got, we started our conversation weeks ago, I
think when, um, when we had a big chat on the phone, but for everyone that's
listening, that doesn't know who you are, , I usually start with where you grew
up and what led you to policing.

So would you like to talk a bit about that?

Brad Cooper:

Yes. So,
uh, I yeah, so I grew up a bit transient, , my dad was in the RAF, so we moved
around a bit, , through Newcastle, Wagga, Melbourne, got to Canberra, spent
seven years in Canberra, then went to Malaysia for 12 months, came back, ended
up in Newcastle, and then, uh, I guess, It's interesting living that kind of,
you know, RAAF kid, transient lifestyle, because on one hand, you don't keep
friends and back then, like 70s, 80s, there was no internet, there was nothing.

It was, we had what's called a landline phone. It was often on
the wall and you had to turn the thing to dial the numbers. Um, so you couldn't
really keep up with friends because it just, it wasn't done. So we were in
every place for a couple of years and moved on. But. What it taught me is the
ability to not stay in one place and have that freedom to be transient and
explore and get out and about.

Um, like, you know, there's people that have lived their whole
lives in one place and some of them manage and get out and about. Like my wife
now, she grew up all the time in one place, um, but also travelled and is not
averse to that. But other mates I had when I got to Newcastle, And then I moved
out to the Hunter Valley.

That was too far for anyone to come and visit. I'm like, well,
this is random.

But for me,

like, we drive five hours a day to go and have coffee with
someone. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. So I guess that, that growing up in
that different, um, transient space was good for that. And I was happy, um,
wanted to get into the RAF.

Didn't get the marks. , so then I did a bit of life experience,
did some nursing, ended up, uh, I did roadie music stuff and also did nursing
and somehow that path led me through to psych geriatric, geriatric and then
psych, , community nursing. So I ended up doing stuff with docs and crisis
intervention teams, dual diagnosis where they've got disability and mental
health.

, and this was largely, I don't mean to diminish this, but a
lot of the mental health now is, is usually drug induced. , back then it
largely wasn't that all at least the areas I was dealing with wasn't, it was
still a problem, but not there. So they were different. , Uh, the true
psychosis forms of the mental illness, because the drug psychosis as you would
have seen is different in a, in a weird way.

I can't, explain it, but it is a bit different. They're still
illnesses. I'm not negating any of that. So it got to the point where I was
doing clinical support, turning up on people's doorsteps and one bloke that was
in a wheelchair and had all these, , personality disorders. He was at the end
of the corridor.

One day I turned up, knocked on the door. He said, yep, come
in. By the time I opened the door, he'd launched out of his wheelchair and come
running at me with a knife. And I'm like, Fuck, you can run. Who knew? You're
in a wheelchair. Dude, okay, fair enough. Good, good call. You're cured. . And
then yeah, shut the door and thought, okay, this is going to be a change.

I thought, I need, I need to start doing with this, this with
better armament. Um, so yeah, I put an application into the COPS and got
accepted and went to Goulburn in 2000.

Rosie Skene:

So did
he stab you?

Brad Cooper:

No, no,
no, no. I got the door quicker. One of those things where you're looking at a
guy that you've worked with for 12 months, you sort of seen him hobble,
thinking, yeah, okay, you've got mobility issues.

And this one day. He, he was like Gollum chasing a coin. This
dude launched, and it would have been a good eight meters, launched out of his
chair, directly towards me, in, and I've got the door open, just about to step
in, and he's launching with this knife, screaming abuse with his hand held up,
and I'm like, holy fuck, you're running.

So it was that part of, Wow, this is really cool. Then I'm
like, hang on, he's got a knife and he's coming right for us. So I didn't have
a South Park gun, so I just shut the door and

he slammed into it. And that was the end of that visit. I just
left. , . But from there, joined the cops, went to Goulburn, did the academy.

Of course, I did a May thing, so I had two winters there. How
much fun is Goulburn in winter?

I went down, I was 26
when I, when I joined in, , I think 25, 26. So for me, I'd left a good paying
job and I was now on a 12, 000 scholarship for 12 months, so a thousand bucks a
month to pay for my time at Goulburn, my books, my study.

And, you know, I was like, well, this has got to work out. So I
didn't have time to muck around as much as, yeah.

Rosie Skene:

I was
the same as that. I felt that pressure. I left, I was in hospitality, but I
was getting no other money. , and I couldn't be there any longer than I, I was
supposed to be there for that reason.

Yeah.

Brad Cooper:

You're
like, you've got, I've got to pass. I'd love to go to Tully's and I'd love to
go to the dingoes and I'd love to go to all these dodgy shit plots. But back
then the, the academy bar was open. Let's not talk about the licensing, but the
academy bar was open. So I was like, okay. I've got limited money.

I'll do a little bit here and there, but I just had to study
when everyone else was having a ball, it was kind of like, you know, everyone
goes to uni and P's get degrees, but I didn't have that ability, so I came out,
did all that past that, and then got posted to Holroyd and I'm like, hang on.
I'll put in Newcastle, Broken Hill and Maitland.

What the hell is a Holroyd? Um, turns out I was Merrylands in
Sydney. Okay, I don't know what that is either. Merrylands, just up from, only
now one of the busiest commands in Western Sydney. Yeah,

yeah.

Holroyd, Merrylands, now Cumberland. , so I went there, which
was awesome, because it was, it had everything.

It had absolutely everything. Had a great team, great
commander. I've met some great friends that I'm still friends with now, um, and
it was an awesome start to my career there, and I thought, wow, this is so much
fun, and 12 hour shifts, I soon learned that, oh, geez, you need, you need a
good recovery after that.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Brad Cooper:

And that
was my baptism, so, um, it was really good, and it was funny. Someone I still
talk to today, a very dear friend. Was one of my FTOs and I think it was within
my first six months of probation. I was two up not three and You know standard
double beeper blah blah self harm locked in a room rightio no worries.

We'll turn up , negotiators are coming, tactical's coming,
everyone's coming, we turn up there and, and I say to my buddy, I said, look, I
was doing this 12 months ago without a gun. You want me to start it? I'll have
it, have a go. Schizophrenic, spoke to the family, schizophrenic, been peeking
out, got a knife in there, no one else wants to hurt himself, no worries.

So I went in, Had a bit of a chat, about 20 minutes later, um,
he agreed to open the door, came out, he was about to hand me the, the knife,
and little did I know, that there was about 15 cops behind me, and a
negotiator, that suddenly, I'm dragged back, they went in, he's on the ground,
knife secured, everyone's done, and I'm like, Cool.

Rosie Skene:

Thanks
guys.

Brad Cooper:

Good
job. It's like a cartoon where a tiny little thing standing up to a massive
group of people and they all run away and they go, Hey, they're cool. And then
you turn around and there's a big gang behind you backing you up. Yeah, that
kind of happened. Um, but the negotiator said to me, that was really well done.

You know, cool. Here's my number. We'd like to have you on the
books later on. Okay, cool. My, my FTO at the time put in a good work report.
And it's the only one she ever did and she said it's the only one I'm ever
doing because you put in a good work report that probationary constable Bradley
Cooper, six, six months out or less, had negotiated a siege with an armed man
and done really well.

What do you think happened? When that report went in.

Rosie Skene

Yeah, what
did happen? She got paraded. Yeah.

Brad Cooper:

She got
paraded and berated for throwing the cannon fodder in and, you know, that was
irresponsible and blah, blah, blah. And then I got called in to answer. I think
it seemed the expectation was I was going to throw her under the bus and I'm
like, dude, have you seen my CV?

Like I was doing this for years. This is actually my
wheelhouse. Yeah, exactly right. This is my skill. Yeah. And, and I did it. No
one got hurt. And she's, why is this a problem? And, oh no, it's not
appropriate. And I'm like, the problem is you're not recognising that police
may have prior transferable skills.

You only recognise I'm a 26 year old probationary constable
with no experience and therefore shouldn't have done that. Yeah. And that to me
was a, a really eye opening moment. And to her as well. She just said, I'm not
fucking doing that. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

that's
it. I don't care

Brad Cooper:

how good
you are. Yeah, so we still laugh at that.

But, um, yeah. Yeah, from there I, I, I moved around and
enjoyed a really good career.

Rosie Skene:

. I
know, , so when I met you, I was in Inverell and I came out as a little
probationary. Yes, you did. And, um, but when you were there, you were in
Highway Patrol.

And so, and I know, Like, from what I know of you, I know how
passionate you are about road safety, and still to today, but is that what led
you to Highway Patrol, or did that come as a result of working within Highway
Patrol? So how did you get there?

Brad Cooper:

Okay, so
my goal to join when I joined the COPS was, um, Gary Sweet.

I was going to join Police Rescue.

Rosie Skene:

Oh my god,
water rats.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.
Cool. Water rats rescue. Yeah. And actually stingers. Oh, I didn't see that
one. No, they were all undercover. Like, undercover. I was pretty bad. Oh,

Brad Cooper:

yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Um, and,
and a bit of blue heel is Maggie Doyle. So yeah. Oh, Maggie. Yes. Yeah. Gary
Sweet. Love it.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah, I
did.

I wasn't in love with Gary Sweet. I just thought, why are they
in white overalls doing the dirtiest jobs? And still to this day, it just
befuddles me, but you still do it. But, , one of the guys out of my class is, ,
is good in rescue now. He's still in there and he's loving it and good to him.
But I just found, , confined spaces and, you know, ropes, cliffs, all that kind
of stuff was never going to work for me.

So I'm like, all right, cool. Um, yeah. And then, yeah, from
Merrylands, I went out to Broken Hill, finally got out to Broken Hill. Um,
loved it out there, and that's a wild place to be. So from Merrylands, where
you turn up to a disturbance or a blue, and you've got dogs, Pol Air six cars,
a hundred cops, and all you've got to do is stand there and go, Don't be a
dick.

Yeah. , to Broken Hill where you've got you, your partner, one
car and 500 angry people. It was, it was a transition. I used more cans of OC
in the first three months I was at Broken Hill than I did in any time since my
career anywhere before or after. And I was only there for seven years. So the
first couple of months were amazing, including, I got there in June.

And on the 5th of August, went to a disturbance, , that, yeah,
old mate was, you know, typical domestic, and we could see him punching her,
like he was up, she was down, but he was punching really weird, and the, the
screams weren't correlating with the punch or something, I

said, mate, come on, what are you doing, and he's going, you
want me, come and get me, okay, I'm brave, kick a door in, let's go, and I had,
um, I had a probationary constable with me, I wasn't that senior at that time,
but I had a probationary constable and a SPO at that time.

Um, and so we've barged in and, and here he is just hitting her
and I'm like righto. So I went through all the tactical things, long story
longer. Um, I tackled him, the knife, he stabbed me in the leg with his knife,
figured out, Oh, he's stabbing her, that's why the screams. Okay, fair enough.
There's a baby there, there's all this stuff, comes to a drawdown point where
I'm aiming at him, Um, he decides then that everything we've done to him has
taken offence and he throws the knife down.

30 seconds, but I live it over in my head, like it takes 10
minutes. Um, so yeah, she runs out with the baby, Everyone's good, we arrest
him, bump a dump a dump. Um, and, and that was just, bang, here we are, welcome
to this. So that, that was kind of a wild experience. Um, and everyone stood up
and then I got, I got a, um, a phone call from the then Deputy Commissioner and
told me who he was and said, oh, and I'm like, oh, yeah, right, yeah, good.

Oh, I just want to acknowledge your courageous work and this,
that and the other. I said, oh, yeah, that's bloody nice of you, isn't it?
Yeah, great. Are you okay? I said, yeah, yeah, mate. Yeah, there's someone, you
know, who is it? Is it you? Is it you? I think it was one of my mates. I
thought they were geeing me up and he goes, no, no, no, no, this is Deputy
Commissioner Dave Madden.

I went, oh, respectfully, sir, can we start this conversation
again?

Rosie Skene:

Hang up,
call me back.

Brad Cooper:

I'll do
it better. And to his credit, he's like, don't worry, I'll get it all the time.
I mean, that was my start to Broken Hill. Um, within that, there was a lot of
opportunities to, to diversify within the cops. And that's a good thing about
the police.

I think like my ending was. Horrible as many do, but I still
value the organization for what it offers as a career and for the main ethos of
being there to help people, which, you know, take that on another level. Um, so
it's still good. And then I'm looking at, okay, I could go detectives. Nah,
that's too slow for me too much sitting around.

Um, could do JIRT no, I can't handle those kind of people that
end up dead. I'd be like Dexter, you know, that movie Dexter, we showed Dexter,
uh, and then Highway come up and I'm like, yeah, I'm not really a car guy. I
don't like fining people, but let's give it a go and took it a run, got in in
2005 at Broken Hill, uh, and then 2007 transferred to Inverell Highway.

, where I met you, and then from there went to Joint Traffic
Task Force at Huntingwood, what they called the Belter Shelter. Um, someone,
it's the Huntingwood, uh, Highway Patrol Headquarters, didn't you ever hear
that? The

Belter Shelter.

Uh, listeners, you can't see, but Rosie is pissing herself
laughing right now.

Rosie Skene

Oh, that's
gold. I love that.

Brad Cooper:

So, , I transferred down to the Highway Patrol headquarters at Huntingwood, massive
steel shed that everyone loved, um, worked in the Joint Traffic Task Force
because that was dealing with heavy vehicles. And in the interim, because when
I was on the road with a few of us, we'd actually go and find more than
speeding tickets.

We'd find drugs, we'd find warrants, we'd find guns, we'd find
all this kind of shit. And , we got invited down to Melbourne to be part of
Operation Catch, crime and traffic connecting on highways. Very cool. Um, so we
started that and brought that back into New South with a few good players. And
then. yeah, the highway job gave me the ability to be out and about doing that.

And I was also playing in trucks, which most cops weren't doing
because they weren't taught about it. You didn't know. The heavy vehicle side
of enforcement is so complex that what police officer without any clue is going
to go up and talk to a truckie. , if they don't know what they're talking
about, they don't want to be risking, you know, being down faced.

So, they just don't deal with it. , but I loved it. I really
liked it because the amount of shit that I found in trucks and trailers was
just, it was a buzz to go and hunt that, that, that collection and go, Yep,
right, I got you off the street. Thanks for coming. And, you know, getting a, a
drugged up truckie driving 70 ton of road train off the road.

Okay, that's cool, because a lot of things, a lot of the road
carnages involving truck, some of it is truck's fault, others is car faults and
caravan faults, but there's another story, but yeah, to find that, it was
really beneficial, so then. Within Highway, it sort of opened your eyes more to
how stupid people are on the road.

Mobile phones, no seatbelt, inattention, all that stuff. You
know, I've been to that many fatals. There's only one that really smacked me, ,
but the rest of them have been too. I can recount and go, yep, you know, that
happened. And I, I don't say this callously, but I enjoyed going to those jobs
purely to investigate, understand what happened.

Yeah.

Because the family can't be there. They can't see that horrific
scene and they don't, you don't want them to, but at times they probably should
just to understand it. So to be able to be that, , conduit to go, well, little
Johnny or little Jane. Or Big Johnny, Big Jane, whoever it may be, this is what
happened, and this is why.

It was their fault, or it wasn't their fault, and we've dealt
with the person who's at fault, or we're not. To be able to give that closure,
, even when I did a lot of deadens, , in GDs. To be able to give answers, , was
just something significant. And I remember a side tangent. You'd get a
telephone message pad or something to go and deliver a death message.

And they go, oh, you go and tell person A that person X is
dead. All right. , what happened? Because you can't just turn up and go, Hey,
you got any tea, coffee and biscuit, you know, , so it was always that passion
of all the officials. And I think it was something going way back from that. He
ain't heavy ad or from the training that said, treat these people as if you
want your parents to be treated or your grandparents to be treated, you know,
give them that respect.

They might be annoying. To them at that moment, you're in their
life because that is the most important thing for them at that time.

Rosie Skene:

And
they'll remember that for the rest of their lives as well, because

the majority of people don't have interactions with police.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,
and when they do, it's like, ooh, you know, and this could be good or bad for
anyone else.

That's right. Um, yeah, I think that, that kind of stemmed it
off and then to see how, how many silly decisions are made that lead to crashes
that we have to then go and clean up, uh, and, and one crash, one death. You've
got the first responders on scene, you've got the family, you've got their
associated network.

It casts such a wide net of impact, not to mention cost if
you're shutting down a highway, because then that has a whole different setup,
especially in the city. , It's so big that it's like, well, you know, you
really know how to do it. And while I've got the power of a big fast car and, ,
all the technology in the world and a big red button to go, Woo.

Miss that button. Yeah, I know. But you've got the ability to
do something about it. , so that was very empowering until. The time comes when
you don't, and then that's almost part of an identity crisis, but, you know,
it's still, sometimes today I get a bit angry that I don't have the big red
button, but it's working through it, but I think, yeah, that, like you say, it
put into the road safety passion , and I did, , down in Sydney, it's a vastly
different story.

You work Metro Highway Patrol, you're very unlikely to come
across the same person twice. So you can dish fines out and try and do
education and enforcement on the way. That person will remember the
interaction, but you may not, and you may never see him again. But if you're a,
if you come across not so nice, like a lot of people I've met, and you're just
being a robot and an arsehole, then that person is going to remember that
interaction and their goat will be up next time they meet a cop.

That's right. And if that's a nice cop, like me, I frequently
got people that were angry, and you just have to try and chill it down. It
affects it, but I can see how you just, you keep getting stuck in it. So, yeah,
in the country areas, it was good because you kind of had an ability to make an
impact on the younger generation or the drivers to go, all right, I'll give you
a bit of leg rope and it's up to you what you do with it.

Here's a warning, but you do it again. I'm taking your license.
So it was a really close ability to work with these people. To try and get them
to comply. If not, you take their license and there's been two occasions in my
career that, , yeah, one of those I've ended up at, at their fatal and the
other one was involved in a fatal as a driver.

, but still didn't accept blame because they got away. They
lived. So you're like, wow, just very weird psyche that you can, you can have
an in point to a point. You can have an impact or a point, but it's only as
much as that other person lets you. Yeah, that's right. And it's like, well,
yeah, okay, I can have all this stuff going on in my life, and it's impacting
me.

And if I project that onto someone else, it's only if they want
to accept it, I'm going to project it. So the same with receiving. If people
have got all their stuff going on, I don't need to accept it. For them to dump
it off, you can still wash it out. So, I don't know, it's a very deep,
different sort of tangent on that.

But, um, we'll go back to the career side. So, from
Huntingwood, , yeah, we did a few trips, did a few truck enforcements, had a
great time. There was a lot of potential there, but at the time, um, I'll just
say that it was a very different and unique environment. That caused many of us
to leave.

Yeah.

Better now, much better now, but there was certain individuals
that have since out. It, , it just made it really tricky. And, and there was a
lot of egos there. But, the capacity to do something in that road safety space
was huge. So then I got, , I, I was on the sergeant's list. I think I was
around 60 or 70 out of 500 or something ridiculous.

And I really wanted a highway sergeant's job, but I was told in
no uncertain terms that I'm not going to get one, , because the people that
make the decisions were in that same building. And I'd obviously stirred a pot.
So I'm like, right, that's cool. , things were coming to a climax and I was
like, all right.

I said, all right, here's two options. Where should I go? She
goes, which one are you not on the road? And I said, this one. She goes, take
that. Okay, fair enough. It's time, get off the road. So I did. Yeah, I took a
team leader spot at Penrith Radio. And that was amazing. Absolutely loved it.
Seeing the other side of how radio works was really, really good.

, Very dynamic, but a lot of civilian influence in terms of the
staff, , the operators, a lot of them are civilian. There's not many police and
in terms of the upper management and police link, Powell, all that stuff,
that's all mega civilianized. So you're in the cop corporate bubble, but you've
got a lot of civilian influence, which was really, really strange because you'd
never had that influence before.

But yeah, that's where I, I did a couple of years. Absolutely
loved it. Had some great people there. Still communicate with them, they're
awesome. , I feel I did a lot of good work along with a lot of other people in
there to, to keep it running and to improve it while all the system wanted to
do was keep shutting it down.

So that, that made it hard. , then I got an opportunity to be
an organizer with the police association. And due to my history, I got put
through a specialist, so I had traffic and highway patrol, police transport
command, transport command, which is like the buses and prisoner movement, ,
and radio group.

So, what that meant was, I was the main port of call as an
organiser on the ground to go and look after about 2, 800 members. Was that
full time? Yeah. Wasn't Yeah, yeah. It was a full time secondment. Yeah. So,
basically still employed and paid by the cops, but you're working for the
police association. , and they keep doing that to refresh people in there.

Some of them have got full time roles, but this, I've always
wanted to do it since 2008 campaign. I wanted to be an organiser and they said,
no, you've got to move to Sydney. And I said, that'll never happen. And then
finally, when I got there, I'm like, right, let's have a go.

Yeah.

So yeah, about 2, 800 members spread across the state.

I had a active caseload of at least 60 members from different
areas. And, geez, I put on some K's in two years. It was, it was amazing. , and
that was awesome because I got to do my providing support side of things. So I
got to help people out in that role. , and then time came, um, it was like,
right, we're going to look at the change.

So finished up with them and then went back to radio. And then
from there, yeah, everything kind of went downhill. Um, many changes, many
problems, let's just say very similar to most of your other people. , got
burnt, got micromanaged, too many things happened at once and I was just, the
bucket was full.

Like you had to empty it out and it couldn't, couldn't go
anymore. So that's when I bailed out and after that several hours with the
doctor, I didn't go back. So that was there.

Rosie Skene:

Did you
recognize it yourself initially or was it Ally that sort of said something to
you? Or how, how did it come about? When did you notice it?

Brad Cooper:

I, I
recognized it. Um, and for about six months, I'm like, I can manage this
probably longer. Uh, and then as it draw closer, I'm, I'm applying for jobs in,
you know, resilience, new South Wales director positions that I met all the
criteria for. I'm applying for jobs in transport for New South Wales at all the
different hubs all over the joint.

I was just looking for equal level jobs to get the hell out.
Yeah. And just move across. And one of my other mates did that. He was
struggling, but he got out and went to another, um, agency, and he's doing very
well, and he's happy with it. I'm like, that worked for you? That's cool.
Didn't work for me.

Obviously, things happened in a way, ah, it's one of those
things, I think, that you are where you're meant to be, when you're meant to be
there. And this was one of those, you know, moments, I think, that as hard as
it was, It was something that put, put me in a position to be now be doing what
I am, which would otherwise have been different.

So it's like, you know, it was a shit storm, but I'm thankful
for it. So I kind of recognized it, but I didn't want to acknowledge it. I'm
like, no, no, no, I can deal with this. I'm, I'm, I'm, no, I'm looking after my
staff. I don't get sick. I'm good. You know, I need to look after them. And,
and it was almost to the point where I was too.

looking after them because I didn't want to face my shit. I
think that's the first,

Rosie Skene:

that's
one of the first signs of, burnout is when your productivity and the way you
work is peaking. And you think, I'm, you know, I'm doing this, I'm doing that,
I'm doing all these things.

Brad Cooper:

It's
pretty, it's pretty trippy, but, um, I, I went down kicking and screaming and
it wasn't until that second doctor's appointment where I actually figured it
out.

Yeah, I could go back, but I need help. I need time off the
track. So, you know, like I tell everyone that, that I talk to about having
time off. Just because you put in a 902 or you take time off work, totally
unfit for work, doesn't mean you never will be fit again. And it doesn't mean
you're instantly discharging.

It just means that right now, If you feel like this, your
hypervigilance is out of control, your blood, your blood pressure is up, your
pulse is over a hundred when you're sitting resting, your thoughts keep going
when, you know, for some reason your family are distant from you because you
don't remember yelling at them, even though you didn't mean to yell at them,
it's just your reaction because you're fighting in your head and that was
happening with me at home, um, in, in my past marriage that, that, you know,
Yeah, I feel dreadful about because there was times then that happened when I
had my back injury, , but I was angry.

I was in pain and you're not taking it out on. I mean, you're
not addressing your anger at your family or anyone else or your colleagues.
You're addressing it just because it's all going on in your head and you're
screaming in your head. So someone would come in and go, G'day, how you going?
You go, Oh, what do you mean by that?

What do you mean by that? You know, it's like, and they're
like, what the hell's wrong with you? Oh, oh, now there's something wrong with
me, is it? Oh, look at yourself, my friend, come on. And it's like, oh, this is
stupid. So, yeah, I mean, if that kind of stuff's happening, and the good old
Dr. Kevin Gilmartin book.

Rosie Skene:

Oh, I
read it too.

Brad Cooper:

That,
that, that is a, an epiphany moment, because yeah, it's like he's been sitting
in your lounge room watching it. So if all that stuff's happening, it's like,
yeah, you. You need time off the track. You need to empty the bucket. And the
only way to do that is to stop filling it up. So, yeah, that was kind of, that
was interesting.

But now we have a recovery that has led to increased health.
increased awareness and understanding of mindfulness and being in the moment
and still practicing meditation. I'm shit at it. Probably as bad as I am at
yoga because I'm about as flexible as a stick. Um, but yeah, it's been good
now. And then EML, a lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about them.

EML at the start of my journey was problematic. , and I think
the first couple of months were just because nothing moves quickly. ,

Yeah,

and you put in your 902, you put in your doctor's certificate,
and you're sitting there spending 24 hours a day wondering about yourself and
what they're going to do with you, where the people that you want answers from
are dealing with thousands of different people.

And they don't have time to get back to you and they're still
trying to jenga where you fit into this. So it took a couple of months of high
anger and frustration before. I got settled with a caseworker and then we're
able to move forward. But since then, I've had nothing touch wood, but good,
good luck with them, uh, and good caseworkers.

So that's been a very good experience, um, in order to move
forward, have my treatment approved, have, um, Things repaid and all that kind
of stuff. So that's been really cool. Um, then they went to a point where
they're like, Alright, well, what do you want to do? I said, I don't know. But
because I've been very active in my recovery, I'm like, I'm open to
suggestions.

I'm open to look at stuff. So they put me through a vocational
assessment. 12 months, I think. Um, and that vocational assessment was really
ironic, because my personality must have still been going through. Something
was there anyway, but the vocational assessment came back and he's going,
right, I've got some great careers that we can look at for you in the future.

One of them's a teacher, and I'm like, Excuse me? You want me
to be a teacher? With, with like kids and shit? What the hell is wrong with
you? Oh, you, you could do vocational stuff at TAFE. I said, what am I going to
teach them? How to get out of jail? What the fuck are you talking about? He's
going to, another one I've got is disability support worker.

I've gone, are you kidding me? I did that before the cops. What
are you talking about? So that, that ended quickly. Yeah. Yeah. But it, it kind
of picked up on my, I guess, My desire to help and desire to teach, which I'd
done through the cops as an FTO driver development and, and wanting to help
people and do all that kind of stuff, you know, eventually years later, we did
the same kind of thing.

And it came out different, , more akin to what I was looking
for. It's like, well, yeah, I want to, I want to help people drive safely. I ,
I want to teach people that, that can't otherwise do it. Like, um, you know,
the disadvantaged or someone that doesn't have the opportunity to go and do it
easily. I want to help them.

Be able to learn how to drive safely so that they don't become
another statistic. I don't have my big red button anymore, but I do have an
opportunity now to try and help people one at a time, reduce the road toll by
increasing that awareness. And I thought if that's what I can do, I can do it.
So, , yeah, a few assessments and a few different conversations later, they
supported me to do my driver certification, driving instructor certification.

And then I've started my own business now, did a bit of
training in Tasmania while I was there, which was really good because that
paired in with a driver mentor scheme. So certain councils down there have
volunteered driver mentors where people that don't have the money for lessons
or don't have cars, they've got their own cars that they provide mentors who
aren't instructors, but they just help them get the hours up.

And, you know, as a result now I've keyed in with that council
and I'm providing them additional support. To, , strategize and to format
lesson plans for them. So, that's such a great initiative. Yeah, and , there's
one in Queensland, PCYC Breaking the Cycle. , they have it up there where the
students go through with the driving instructor first, get assessed, get a
plan, and then the mentors continue that work.

It's free for the student, PCYC funds it, and It's awesome. ,
so I've done volunteer stuff with them as well. And now I've got my own
business that, , on a slow burn, once we get back home to Tweed Heads, , that's
where I'm going to be starting really kicking it. And I've got bookings waiting
there with people that, you know, friends or other people that I've helped in a
volunteer capacity and now wanting their friends to come in.

Cause you know, I guess, I don't know, there's some, I don't
know what it is. I don't know. There's a couple of people I've helped that are
multicultural, other with anxiety disorders, and just for some reason for me,
it's really strange and cathartic because on the road myself, I might be prone
to a little bit of road rage, anger, yelling, screaming, not crashing and
running people off the road.

I might get a little close, I've got a big four wheel drive, so
I might get a little close, and then I'm like, no, back off, two second gap at
least. Um, but when I'm in the left seat, and I'm, I'm mentoring or teaching
someone, stuff can go on, and it's like that dude in the Blues Brothers. He's
teaching the learner, and just tells her to calmly extend the hand out the
window and put up the finger, and he's just super calm in the middle of a rat
race.

And that's me! How did this happen? Wow. I need this to be my
calm session now. So ironically, , yeah, teaching people that don't know how to
drive and they're trying to kill you, really calms me down. It's, it's quite
amazing.

Rosie Skene:

I think
when you told me that, well, actually, when we, um, reconnected on LinkedIn, I
saw that that's what you were doing.

My first initial thought was, of course you're doing that. I
think you said that to me as well. How could you not, how could you do anything
else because you are my FTODD and You was so calm, like you just said with me

Brad Cooper:

you
already knew how to drive. Well,

Rosie Skene:

I, well,
I, I could move a vehicle.

I don't know if I knew how to drive

Brad Cooper:

because
you only had your little car, didn't you? And then you jump into these rangers
and shit.

Rosie Skene:

Had little magna, we had a Sylvia before that. But um, I just remember you being so
calm and just explaining things in different ways to. So I was better able to
understand because, you know, vehicles and all that sort of stuff is a little
bit foreign to me.

It wasn't something I was familiar with. Like, yes, I've got my
driver's license, but that's as far as it went, pretty much.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,
and when you got it, were you taught how to change a tire or were you taught
what the symbols inside the car meant? Were you taught how to look at the oil
and

Rosie Skene:

stuff? I was. My dad made me learn that sort of stuff.

, and that's actually something that I'm quite passionate
about. So when my kids, which is coming up real quick now, yeah, Alex is nearly
14. , yeah, he, yeah, and I've actually said, I've said to him, I've got a
friend who's a driving instructor and we're going to go up there and you're
going to, because he taught me how to drive.

Um, but yeah, I think you are definitely in the place that
you're supposed to be in because you're an incredible teacher. And I think it's
more than just knowing what to do, it's learning about the people that you're
teaching and putting things in a way that they're going to understand and then
implement it.

And I think you're perfect for that.

Brad Cooper:

Oh,
thank you. That's, that's, that's the aim. It's, it's. Everyone learns
differently. , and I've found that with, , trying to explain stuff, my head
often doesn't work. And it's like, okay, I've got to, I've got to try and
explain stuff so that makes sense to you of what I'm trying to transfer or, or,
okay, how do you learn?

And if you're not understanding this, how do we get it to, and
you can see that light bulb moment when it clicks and go, ah, cool, right.
We're getting somewhere. And the joy for me of. You know, even with you and,
and, you know, um, getting that, okay, I'm trying to teach you this and then
you do it and you're like, yes, you got it.

It's working. Master that. Let's go. It's yeah, it's kind of a
thrill. It is. It's the dopamine. It's good. But, um, in Tasmania, there was
one paid student and two under the mentor program that all set their assessment
on the one day. And I was there for it. I actually took it on my birthday to go
and do it. , and they all passed, first go.

Or one, it was her fifth time going. And since working with me,
I'd volunteered my time through the business and through the mentor. And did
about six hours, seven hours with her. And it was, it was that one thing that,
because she kept, because she'd already failed so many times. She had this
voice in her head.

It's going to happen again. God, what are you going to do? And
it caused her so much anxiety that before she could even address the
assessment, she was already nine out of 10 at anxious level. So it was about,
she said one thing that helped me to understand. She said, Oh, it's this voice
in my head that keeps saying whatever it was.

And I said, all right, well, we're about to go in and meet the
assessor. So what I propose is you tell the voice in your head to go and have a
coffee and I'll check in on it every now and then, and not allowed to return
until you come back. So you can just. Focus on what you need to do. And she
came back in tears and I'm like, Oh, no, what happened?

She was in tears because she passed. And even the assessor was
like, Wow, you've done such a great job. You look at this, there's no marks on
here other than positive ticks. And I'm like, Oh, cool. That's, that's good. It
was that one thing of, I think there was others, but being able to get in and
go, right, what's it going to take?

For you to, to be able to hook onto this and then make a
difference. And yeah, I've heard back from her since and she's continuing to
drive and interested in more safe tips and that. And that for me, it's like, I
don't want to teach people that just want to pass their test. There's plenty of
other people out there do that.

And they go through the most, here's how you pass the test.
Here's the route they're going to go down. Here's what you need to do. It's,
it's cookie cutter approach. This is what you need to do to pass the test.
100%. Yeah. This is an open book test. Yes. And, and they're almost like
driving on, if they fail, how?

Because they've just practiced it for a hundred hours, you
know? Yeah. So I'm like, no, I'm not going to, I'm going to tell you what you
need to drive. And some of those will be assessed in the test. But, we're not
going on their path, we're going to go and drive wherever we drive, and you're
going to learn how to do it safely.

Because you need to be able to deal with situational awareness,
crash avoidance space, and the unexpected. And Peter Fraser from the Sarah
Foundation, Safer Australian Roads and Highways, met him at one of the police
association conferences. He lost his daughter Sarah to a vehicle , incident,
not accident, they're never accidents, , distracted driver.

And he's been on a campaign ever since, and he's a legend. , so
Peter Fraser, he's, through the Sarah Foundation, they've got the hashtag
Drive Sauce. Drive so others survive. It's about taking accountability for how
you drive. Almost like a safe driving policy.

No, we won't go there. It's um, it's taking accountability for
how you drive. So if you're screaming along the road and there's traffic in
front slowing down, are you going to try and get around them or are you just
going to slow down, check your mirrors and be aware of what's going on? It's a
different mindset.

So yeah, I very much take that ethos into my training and I
teach my students or anyone. Helping to, to have situational awareness, like
same with the cops, you need your situational awareness, not to a hypervigilant
level like we did, but you need to know, yeah, you need to know what's going
on. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

It's
definitely like a holistic approach that you're taking in, in teaching, like,
like you said, not just the, this is what you need to do and then you'll pass

what you need to do to be a good driver on the roads and drive
to the best of your ability and safety.

But the whole community, not just passing a test exactly.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah.
It's about, yeah, you driving so others survive. Because a lot of accidents
caused by people where others are impacted. And, you know, you see people that
are distracted or whatever. It's like driving, driving has become almost
autonomous now, compared to when I started driving.

Um, You know, the lane assist will put you back in, there's
cruise control, there's brake assist, that if you get too close, it'll do it
itself. There's so much time for, , updating Facebook and TikTok now while
you're sitting here, or people aren't Driving is no longer driving. You're,
you're a steerer.

You got the rubber ring and that's about it. You're not driving
as you used to where you are concentrating on what's happening five cars ahead
or a hundred meters ahead or a kilometre ahead. You're not, no one's looking at
that anymore. It's all this stuff. So it's about trying to, I can't change the
world.

I have no, the road toll is going to continue to rise because
people are impatient. It's society we live in now. It's just, it's the vibe.
It's the castle, you know, it's just what it is. , But if I can have an impact
one on one to help that, maybe that, much like the ripple effect of a fatal,
one person dies, the first responders are affected by the first ripple, then
their families are those, the friends of those, the business colleagues, the
ripple extends, it diminishes, but it still extends.

If I can help one person to drive safely, based on what I've
experienced in my life and my career and seeing how that affects people. Using
scare tactics, but basically using the techniques to go, well, here's what you
need to be safe. You want to learn what you need to do a test? Go and find
someone else.

You want to learn how to survive on the road and keep others
safe? Come to me. , so yeah, that's, that's been a really strong ethos. And
hopefully that will ripple effect out to them as passengers, as other drivers,
to their family. , I've now started connecting with RYDR which is Road Safety
Education provides RYDR Rotary Youth Driver Awareness.

They go into schools for year 10 to 12. Yeah, good.

And they do day long things where you've got 30 minute
sessions, they show speed and stopping, , put the eye in drive, technology, ,
mind matters. Road choices, all these things that, that, that help that age of
kids that are in the very influential space, teenagers that are about to or
have got their license, teaches them about, you know, yeah, it's, it's not
necessarily cool if you're in a car with a mate that wants to show off to go
through a red light, like it's, it's about thinking about all these, these
factors, you don't need to race, you need to be safe and bring back to what are
you doing, you're in a car to get somewhere, you're driving, you have a
purpose, the phone can wait, right?

But the stuff can wait distraction can wait. So yeah, all that
really aligns with with what I'm doing now. I'm really happy to be doing it.
And as I said, like, we, we moved out up to Tweed Heads in the middle of COVID
while I was, , while I was going through this transition, because my wife got
work up there.

And I did try to get transfers up there, but just everything
went against me. , Things didn't work. So it's like, you know, things happen
for a reason. Here we are. So we're going to be back there, , mid October, and
that's when we're going to be there for 6 to 12 months at least before maybe
traveling again.

I can take what I do with me, as I've proven in Tassie and I
can go and support other areas and, and I want to do a lot of it as, um,
philanthropically, to be able to give back, um, you know, to give free lessons
to people at times, to do that stuff, to, to help those who need it. , and of
course, people I know, or, or other cops might get a discount code here and
there, we'll see.

But it's, it's, yeah, it's, it is fulfilling and it is, um,
it's given me a new, new purpose because whilst I love not working and I'm
grateful for the entitlements that I've got that I believe I've worked hard for
in terms of the insurance space. Um, they, they keep us going without me
needing to work, but there comes a point in the recovery where I think you also
need a sense of self.

100%. And that's where I got to, who am I? You know, I went
through massive identity crisis, I tried to grow my hair long again, because I
had that when I was younger. Um, that quickly turned into a bad idea, so I cut
it short again. But I stopped shaving, because for years I'd shaved, and I'm
like, yeah, cool. I had earrings when I was, you know, pre fire brigade and pre
cops.

So I put my earrings back in, I'm like, yeah, I'm cool. Who the
fuck am I? Yeah. I'm still going through this identity crisis and look, to this
day, I'm still like, what's my outfit? What's my look? I don't know. Um, I've
got my earrings in, I shave sometimes, I don't shave others. I'm still going
through it. But at the basis of it, the thing came down to wanting to give back
and wanting to help.

So we started volunteering, um, Meals on Wheels once a week.
And that was it. Some days I'd stay in the car, I was the driver, because I
just was having a day and Ally would go out and deliver and say good day. Other
days, I really took joy in, in, every day I took joy in it, don't get me wrong,
even just being there because I knew I was doing something to help someone.

, but then going and seeing these people and you might be the
one visitor they have for the, for the week and to spend 10 minutes having a
chat was really, it was like, Oh, good. I feel I got that warm fuzzy again. You
know, I can't go and rescue kittens and babies and lock up bad guys, but I can
go and help people in a different way.

So. I found something of starting to do and then I found the
volunteer driver mentoring doesn't exist in New South Wales. PCYC runs a
different course. There's nothing in New South, but, um Tasmania, not sure,
Victoria, Queensland, they operate it and it is really good. Um, and I
recommend it. PCYC, if you're in Queensland, PCYC Queensland, breaking the
cycle, reach out to any of their clubs that run it.

There's a heap of clubs online.

Rosie Skene:

I'll
link to it in the show notes.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,
cool. , Because you're just, you're working with children, check that they help
re fund, it's basically cost neutral, you volunteer your time, and there's
plans set up that you follow, and you're helping young people, not necessarily
always kids, but young people, disadvantaged people that, that wouldn't be able
to do it otherwise, they've got issues, socio economic.

Family issues, um anxiety issues, a multitude of issues that
they're not mainstream and they cannot get their license the other way. But the
point of breaking the cycle is if they get their license, they break out of
possibility of drug use, homelessness, crime, they can get their license, they
can get a job, they can move forward.

And again, that's just that. Saving the world one person at a
time thing that, that I'm into, you know, so yeah, that's really valuable. ,
anyone in Tassie, , Learn a Driver Mentor Program is awesome in Tasmania. They
hook up with a number of different councils. My favourite only because I love
the area was Break a Day Council at South, at St. Helens on the East Coast.

Yeah,

we love it there. And a lot of the towns in Tassie, like Tassie
has sort of two, maybe three kind of cities that. that aren't like Sydney
cities, but they're big, and that's Launceston, Hobart, and to a point,
Devonport. The rest of the place is the tiny town, and so not everywhere has
driving instructors.

Rosie Skene:

No, they

Brad Cooper:
wouldn't. They don't have access to that, where there's a lot of driving
instructors on the mainland here, but not all of them, , are necessarily
teaching you to be safe. They're teaching you to pass the test, and I mean no
disrespect to any of them, please don't get me wrong. Everyone's got their
niche and everyone's got their way.

My passion is to help people at a cheap price or free to get
their license. So I've got to cover my cost, of course. I do it in their car
because I don't yet have a car.

I looked at the work injury damages, you know, where you go
through, you know, yeah. Give up your entitlements for a lump sum payment. And
I was told, oh yeah, cause I, at the time I was just like, oh yeah, I could do
with some cash, you know, I reckon we'd be right.

And I was told, oh yeah, you'd be able to get this figure and
we did the math and thought, yeah, we can live on that. If we have no more EML
and a reduced TAL , we can live on that. That'll be good. But the struggle that
caused, but also I think we started negotiations in the initial phase just when
this announcement of the TPD was coming in.

Yeah.

The lawyers were like, all right, we might've been up here, now
we're down here on the bottom and we're going to offer you lowball. And over
two months, I continued to lowball and it was causing me so much distress
thinking, I just need this figure. Cause then. And this was a kicker for me. I
need this figure because then I, I'm pretty sure I can survive, but then I can
work freely without being tapped and, and subs, , having to subsidize or not
subsidize your report, your income and tell takes it off you.

So you're working for the doll. Basically, if I get this
payout. I can then have enough money to put into my company and I'll be able to
fly to Tasmania and help them and I'll be able to get a car and I'll be able to
support these people and I have the money to do free lessons and blah, blah,
blah. And I'm sitting there at a time where I was trying to manage all this
disappointment when I pulled the pin and it was just like, I wasn't doing that
for me at all.

I was doing it to help others. And that really kicked me in the
guts to go, oh shit, I nearly sacrificed a lot. Just to get a little bit of
coin to, um, and it literally, it was going to be like 250 grand to sacrifice
everything and walk away from them. And I thought, yeah, that's cool. We can do
that. And I'm like, no, I can't because most of that I wanted to put into
helping others, which while that's very amicable.

It wasn't going to help me. No, that's right. The whole process
took me down a path that, it was when I had to cancel on your last one, there
was so much of that, so much of other stuff going on that I'm just like, hang
on a minute. I'm, I'm not miraculously cured like I thought I was, I'm still
carrying residue here and maybe this isn't the best decision.

So I respectfully told the solicitor that, he acknowledged it
and I haven't heard from him since. I went back to my normal caseworker and
we're moving along happily ever after. So that's a different segue.

Rosie Skene:

I think
work injury damages is a big decision to make. It's a lot. I personally said,
no, thanks.

Fine, thanks. And my solicitor advised that way anyway, because
of my age. But I just could not imagine going through that process.

Brad Cooper:

Well,
the first process for me, and I don't know how many times the bar changed, but
the first one was an informal settlement conference where lawyers talk to
lawyers, they spitball some numbers.

And at that point he was expecting to get, , a decent number.
And that was it. No court, no nothing. And then, , if you want to go to the
next stage of negotiation, there's two negotiation stages. I understand you
have to start doing IMEs, independent medical examination, which I'd already
done, but I did another one.

, you have to get a statement prepared, which I've already
done, but I did another one. Or, no, I didn't do another one because I said I
don't know if I can go it. And then you have to meet their terms of negligence.
It's all about negligence. Negligence.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Brad Cooper:

This is
the kicker and if you do put this in in some way and anyone does this in
thinking about it, the negligence for me was I had an issue with a person, that
issue was reported through the chain of command all the way up to the deputy
commissioner.

Everyone in that line acknowledged that that individual was
wrong for the role and was causing harm, yet no one did anything with it.
Further harm was caused, including to myself, I tapped out. That person was
then made a HR manager.

It sounds about right, doesn't it? I'm sure no one will be
surprised other than people that aren't in the cops, because everyone else will
tell they go, they did what?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
no, yeah,

Brad Cooper:

that's a
promotion. Story checks out. Um, the lawyers, that doesn't meet their level of
negligence. They're talking about how could they, the police, keep you safe.

in an unsafe situation. I'm like, well, that is an unsafe
situation. No, because then that's these famous words that cause chills,
reasonable management action. Oh God, I hate that word phrase. , so they look
at it differently and I'm sitting there going through all of my major points
that are most recent thinking they all attribute in my mind to negligence and
failure to act, but in the lawyer's mind, not so much.

And the barrister said, no, no. What about, , Were you ever not
given a bulletproof vest when you asked for it? No. Oh. Were you ever shot? No.
Come close. , were you ever stabbed? Yes. What did they do about that? They
provided me training. The old, I remember the old wax on, wax off, knife.
That's it. Very much.

, but this was something unavoidable. He, I didn't know he had
a knife. He swung around, got me in the leg. Lucky he didn't get me in the gut.
And I nearly shot him. Oh, no. Well, that doesn't really count. I'm like, how,
how can you hold the police negligible? Oh. when they provide you tactical
options. Yeah. And if you don't use them, it's your fault.

And so I started to spin thinking maybe this isn't me. And I
certainly, I thought, well, if we get to the negotiations, we might get a
decent figure and I won't have to go to court, but each step is more legal
things.

Yeah.

And it's a no win, no fee providing, and this was only my case,
maybe the same providing you, if they give you an acceptable offer, like a
number that you'd agreed on and they say, we've got it and you don't take it,
you risk.

their fees. You risk defaulting and then you've got to pay
their legal fees anyway. , I'm sure they don't do that unless it's a really
stupid thing. But then the next step is doubling, tripling, quadrupling. And
they said, Oh yeah. And when we get to hearing, I said, Whoa, , what? They
said, Oh yeah, yeah. When we get to hearing, it'll probably be two or three
weeks.

You'll be on the stand for about five days. And I'm like, I've
been in local district and Supreme court as a police officer. And I am happy to
sit in that box and be grilled. And keep my cool, because that's, that's the
suit, you know, I'm not acting as Brad Cooper, the, the, whatever I am, I still
don't know, I'm acting as, as, as senior constable, constable, sergeant,
whatever, Brad Cooper, the officer, and this is my evidence to give as an
officer of the law.

So I can deal with that totally different. And the lawyers that
do it, Oh God, I've been berated by someone. You sort of, you sit there and
smile and, and then they get cheeky. And then the judge asked you and I said,
well, I've answered this question six times. He's just rephrasing it. What do
you want me to do your honour?

Yeah. All right. So you get a bit of a win and it's game and
yeah. To risk being on that, I call it a stage, , justifying my credibility
personally. I just thought, I know my story and I can give it, but I don't
think I'm going to get out of there without jumping the bench and punching a
solicitor, because I know they will be in it to win it, and they'll be in it to
defame me, discredit me, and while they can say as much as they like about
stuff I've done or haven't done as a police officer, they're not attacking me.

It's like a blind face talking to a blind face, like the
soulless almost. It's just, you know, they somehow sleep at night by attacking,
but they also dissociate by saying, No, I'm attacking the witness, not the
individual, I don't know.

Yeah.

I could not have gone through that, and I made that clear at
the start, there's no way I could handle that on my own personal life, I would
end up launching, getting angry and jumping, not so that, yeah, long story
longer, that was out for me, so.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
You were talking just before, you know, how you said you thought you'd been
miraculously cured. I'm still battling a little bit of laryngitis. , And I, I
had this epiphany, , a couple of years ago now, but even race very recently. So
I, I'm really late to the party with, , the 66 and 67 stuff.

And I've just had my first IME. , and it was the one that's the
solicitor organized and been through about six weeks worth of depression
because of it. And just knowing and anxiety, obviously, because it was coming
up and I thought I'd put it all to bed. Um, and I didn't think I'd ever have to
talk about it again in the way that you have to when you go through that sort
of a interview, I guess it is.

Brad Cooper:

But it
is difficult because well, from my experience, it was going through some
traumas and relive it. And then you're talking on a scale of how much help do
you need going to the bathroom? Yeah. You're like, well, this is not my worst
day. It is. And then you sort of, yeah, you're stuck with it. Come back. So.

reliving your trauma and going, Jesus, I'm really
dysfunctional.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
That realisation that, um, no, actually when you've asked me all these
questions, I've realised now that I'm not as great as I maybe outwardly
project. And it's Fucking hard, you know, and it's the biggest rollercoaster. I
was talking to a friend of mine from college actually yesterday.

She's amazing. And she's out now too, but it's such a
rollercoaster, the journey. And, you know, it's six years now and it's, I think
2019. So it's five years since I discharged. , it's definitely a roller
coaster. And I think when you learn that, , you can be a lot kinder to yourself
in your journey as well. Okay. I'm having bad day, week, six weeks, you know,
but, um, it'll get better again.

You just got to keep putting in that effort. So I don't think
we're ever going to be what, you're not going to be what you were before, but,
um, that working on yourself and realising that you just keep trying to be the
best version of yourself now, that's where it's at.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah, I
agree. That's a very good point.

And I think, um, Every day, like, you, you wake up, here's some
more woo woo, you wake up with gratitude, you write down that you're grateful
for the fact that you woke up, um, you're grateful for whatever, sun, rain,
indifference, it doesn't matter, you're here, you get an opportunity again,
it's about opportunities, um, and yeah, I, I don't as much anymore, but it
still does ruminate, but it doesn't affect me as much, about, um, I used to be
able to manage all this and do this and, you know, 12 hours dynamics and then
go to the gym and then do this, and then do that.

Now, I, I, you know, if I've got one appointment in a day, it
takes me three days to prepare and four days to recover. Yeah. Like, like this.
It's like, yes. You sort of sit there and go, how, how is this? 'cause you go
through days thinking, oh, this is great. Your partner goes, oh yeah, we're
cured. No worries. And then you suddenly have a wig out in a shopping center or
in a public area, or you just sort of have this sudden attack and go, sorry.

I need to go and hide in the dark for 10 minutes. Um, no, I'm
not being rude. I'm just trying not to go mad. It is. It's very. Odd, but the
more I learn about, um, the post traumatic stress, the trauma effects, it's,
it's perfectly normal. Yeah. And that was one of my key phrases that I have to
sometime and lost very good Elliot telling me this.

Give yourself some of your own medicine. Tell yourself what
you'd tell others. Okay. . So the, the phrase was.

It's a perfectly normal reaction to a dysfunctional situation
or similar. So yeah, whatever's happening, you're having a normal reaction to
an abnormal situation. There you go. Um, and that, that was one of the things
that. Is like, yeah, okay, cool. So I'm having a panic and there's nothing to
panic me, but there obviously is something it's a normal reaction for an
abnormal situation.

So yeah, those kind of things sit in there.

Rosie Skene:

I think
like your journey is pretty recent. I think like leaving the cops only a couple
of years ago and I can even see that your mindfulness practice has helped in
the fact that you are able to see. Okay.

But these things are happening for you.

A lot of people struggle to see that until it's really, you
know, till they have blown their top and lost it at their kids or their partner
or something like that. You're able to, with that mindfulness, that's a part of
that practice is to have the mindset that you're like, Oh, okay, this is
actually happening right now.

I need 10 minutes. That's, People don't do that, you know,

Brad Cooper:

you just
need to take the time out. Yeah, you just need to take a breath. And one of the
biggest mantras that I saw that I still struggle to hold on to is instead of
reacting, I stop, I breathe, I observe, I respond, don't react, respond,
because most of mine has been reaction.

You just instantly boom. And instead of listening to think of
what you're going to say. Listen to understand what's being said. Because then
you can take a breath and think about how you're going to respond. So those
little changes are, are very deep in that. And I've always been, when I went
off with this, because I mean, um, yeah, I skipped over it, but back in 2009, I
was assaulted in Inverell.

Um, went to help a general duty crew with a brawl. They were
one up. Long story short, turned to a shit fight. Um, as they do, the
continuing, Brief matter turned to hell, everyone went their own ways, I left
affected, but I ended up being off work for ages with a massive back injury, ,
because I got trodden on, attacked, stomped, all this other kind of stuff.

, I was wearing a covert ballistic vest, the undercover armor
at that stage, that I promoted strongly, even when it was hot, and I think that
did save me from more significance. , skeletal damage, but after many months of
treating me through work cover for L5 S1 disc

prolapse,

I was only getting worse.

And I was getting worse to the point where I was, , Not
sleeping very well, I was in 7 out of 10 pain that had spiked to 10 depending
on how I moved, couldn't walk properly, it continued to deteriorate, and I was
angry, I was angry at the system, I was angry because I was in pain, I was
angry because I was so tired, and couldn't get sleep.

I started medicating, , with alcohol, strongly, and Endep, I
think it was, to try and sleep, to just try and get some rest and pain free.
work and, , it did get to a very dark place where I, I decided it was, was not
worth it anymore. And this was on the back of, , identifying that, yeah, I was
so angry in my head that any time at that stage I was with my now ex wife and
her kids, who I loved and met in Broken Hill and they were awesome but we're
Dissociated now, unfortunately, um, but they, they would be there or I'd come
home or, you know, filled with these expectations of what I was going to find
because I was already angry and, and, um, I'd go to treatment or come back and,
and the washing up hadn't been done or the place is messy and I'd just blow up and
these poor kids are going, what the, he's going on here, you know, and, and
they're barking back at me and then I'm like, hang on, I shouldn't be doing
this.

So I'm angrily storming out of the house. Embarrassed at what's
happened, but yet they're continually just getting this angry Brad and and it
happened and it, , long story short, that whole dissolved and I, I left, um,
but I never, I never got to truly to the kids or that wife. about how it was
feeling for me and how dreadful I felt about it and how sorry I am that I let
it affect me like that.

Uh, instead I got into my car and went to a drive, um, to where
I headed out on the highway with one intention and I ended up stopping at the
spot where one of my most significant fatals was. that a young girl died. She
was returning back to her town after coming shopping for a wedding dress and
was texting a partner on the way home, went off the side of the road,
overcorrected, got t boned and dead, gone.

Um, so that, I stopped right at that point and just burst into
tears at her cross and there was a little voice saying, you can't do this, you
don't have a will. I don't know. Right. So I went home with the intent of
making a will and getting back on the road again. Yeah. And, um, I got home and
not long later, , a good friend then, , Chris, Captain Chris Millard, he was
with the Salvation Army.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah, I did. Many times.

Brad Cooper:

He
rocked up out of the blue and he's at my gate. I don't know. What are you doing
here? Oh mate, I just I needed to come and see you mate. Needed to come and see
you. I said why what's wrong? He goes, I don't know, but we need to have
coffee. Let's come and sit down and I'm like, no, I'm busy.

No No, no, come on. Come on. Let's let's come and sit down
mate. You want to come in there that come inside and that That was a pivotal
moment for me, because if he hadn't turned up, I don't know what other
intervention would have occurred. Um, but yeah, that, that kind of happened.
And I told my injury management person about that.

And then. That changed the course of my treatment. They
suddenly thought, Oh, this is bad. I got a new treatment review and they found
that whilst I did have disc damage from the prolapse and the disc damage, all
the aggravation of the attack and then ongoing treatment had destroyed my
sacroiliac joint.

So women often have that when they are pregnant and give birth.
It's instead of, um, the horizontal padding between your vertebrae, you drop
down to the sacrum and then this is the vertical, , cartilage or whatever it is
between the hips that allow the hip rotation. So apparently I had some never
seen before extreme amount of hip rotation from the SIJ.

And, you know, I was still angry, but they promised, yep, we're
going to put you on this new program. They flew me to Sydney once a week for
two days of physio. And Um, and this was on the back of my back step a bit. I
was asking for help, so they sent me into another orthopedic specialist which
if they can't break it, screw it, fuse it, then they don't know about what to
do.

So, he just said, we've got to fuse your spine and it may help.
Well, that's, that's not a real. Encouraging, uh, diagnosis there, Doc? Yeah.
So I left there bad and then they've done this with a physio and I'm like,
Yeah, righto, no worries. So I started flying to Sydney every week. Um, took me
forever to get from Inverell to Armidale Airport because I'd have to stop with
the pain.

And then flying down, within two weeks I was noticing a
difference. I'm like, ooh, but I was active in my recovery. Normally you go and
see a physio, they give you exercises. You go, yeah, no worries, I feel better
now. Stop.

Yeah,

this was like, this was my life. Like, okay, I've got a chance.
I'm going to do all my exercises every day.

This is my new pattern boom. I think it was 120 kilos at that
stage. Um, and over the next 12 months, taking my journey seriously to get out
of pain, I lost 30 kilos, , started full on into bodybuilding and that weight
came off, the injury disappeared. And I was like, yes, look at this. I'm great.
So yeah, I guess.

Bring that up because of that same vigour that I put into my
recovery. I put into this recovery in terms of the mental strain, uh, not only
physical. And that I think is why I've, yeah, you said it was only a recent
time since I've been out. It is, but I think I've made some pretty big leaps
and bounds. And whilst I'm, I'm now at 10 hours capacity to work and that's
where I'm going to sit until I'm comfortable.

I haven't maxed that yet, but I'm not going to increase that
stupidly until I'm comfortable. So while I can do this, I'm still like, Okay, I
don't want to, I could easily fall back into full time work, but I don't want
to, I don't want to burn out, I don't want to fail, I don't want to do that, so
taking it one step at a time, but also taking the recovery seriously and, and
doing it for yourself, loving yourself in that way to go, all right, well,
we've been through this, now we need to go through this, let's get out of it,
and that's, yeah, I think it's a, it's an interesting philosophy to put in.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I,
a few people that I've had on the podcast are absolutely the same as you with
the activity, like being active in your own recovery. Um, it's so important and
it makes such a difference. And instead of having that, it's really hard
instead of having that embitterment, For what happened, acknowledging it,
moving through the process that you have to go through in relation to your
insurers and all that sort of stuff and getting that squared away.

It's very,

Brad Cooper:

let's
not negotiate. Let's not negate it. That can be a punishment. It is brutal.

Rosie Skene:

It is
brutal. And I found, , and I've spoken about a few times for everyone that
listens since the beginning, you know, like there's a couple of points in my
recovery journey. One was being discharged from the police.

Um, and from that point, I felt like I could actually start to
move forward after all that those processes are done and you're squared away
and you, and you're sitting on that, you know, you're getting your payments
every fortnight or every month, whenever they come and you don't have to worry
about courts and solicitors anymore.

Um, being active in your recovery and doing things that are
good for you, that you know are good for you. Everyone's different. Just makes
such a difference in the way that you recover because no one's going to come to
your house and say, Hey, It's time for you to go for a walk outside now, you
know.

Unless

Brad Cooper:

you've
got a very caring and understanding partner or friend, yeah, but mostly that's
true. But even,

Rosie Skene:

even,
but even them, you know, like they, they get the shits, they have enough, you
know.

Brad Cooper:
Especially if you say no so many times. Yeah, living

Rosie Skene:

alongside people like us is a difficult job, you know. Um, but you have to
really put in that effort if you want to, if you genuinely want to.

want to have some form of recovery that's sustainable.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah.
And I've seen a lot of people, , through when I was in, when I was in the union
and since that, you know, I'm not dogging on them, but they're stuck. Yes.
They're still, they got the post traumatic embitterment disorder. They got the,
, the why me, the blame.

And I had to, I, I had that. I had a lot of that in terms of, I
want accountability for what was done to me. My career's ruined. I was on the
step for an inspector's role. I was going to go up to super where I could
really make a difference and support people and all this kind of, again, doing
everything for everyone else instead of me.

Um, I wanted, I wanted accountability. I wanted people to fall.
I wanted people to be, I wanted it to be noticed. My last day came and went.
The only email and contact I got on my last day was from payroll in a very
harsh thing saying, you Dear Mr. Cooper. Oh, brutal. That's brutal. Hello,
civilian. You're a civilian.

Yeah, we're on. I was gonna say we're equal now, but no, that
person's got a high job and I'm an injured worker, so they're higher than me.
Dear Mr. Cooper, please find attached your final remittance payment. The New
South Wales Police has no further payment in your honour and there's no further
claim, blah, blah, blah.

Regards, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Yep, all that crap about,
you'll get a phone call from your manager on your last day, the union will ring
you, your mates will ring you, you've got nothing. Which is probably good
because that was the first thing I woke up to in the morning, other than my
lovely wife, um, giving me a big hug and, and really supporting me through it.

And then I had the day by myself, I opened that email at like
8. 30 and everything was downhill from there, so. Anyone that came near me was
not going to end well, so. But, it took a while, because I did, I did want
accountability, I felt wronged, I was in that thing.

Yeah.

And it took, even, I hit a plateau in my treatment, I now
remember as we talk about this, um, I hit a plateau in my treatment where we
were just going around in circles and even the counsellor said, I don't know
how you help me mate, you need to get out of your head, , you need to get past
this step, , we've gone through all these ways and you won't go over the fence,
, and it was, I had to forgive.

Yeah.

And when I was told that, much like, if I stand here. With, you
know, my lotus position on the top of a mountain listening to the sound of one
hand clapping and telling all the injured people, you just need to forgive. I
know the response because it's exactly what I did and I'd be pushed off the
mountain and dead.

Um, but it's true. It is so true and it hurts to say and it
hurts to do. But the freedom that you receive after it enables you to move
forward. , and it took me probably two and a half months whereby I was, I was
writing out, I was recording voice memos, I was trying to do a podcast of my
own at one stage, I was doing all this stuff to get it out, , and writing or
journaling in a voice recorder, just getting those thoughts on paper is really
therapeutic.

, And then, yeah, I, I went through a phase that, that I
learned before I wrote everything down, had all this blackness that was inside
me of hate, resentment, , wanting accountability, revenge, you know, distaste,
all this stuff. And it was all there and it was so aggressive and so dark and I
wrote it down and then I left it and I'm like, right, I changed it, went back
and read it a week later and I'm like, holy shit, is that me?

And it's really, really confronting. Um, And then I had to do
it through, I don't, I don't even remember how, but it was basically
channelling, sitting calmly, you get to a point where you can do it, you got to
get it all out of you onto a medium. Leave it. If you need to write anymore,
write it, leave it, and then read it.

And when you're ready to read it, and when you read it, that
goes, that's when you're then ready to go, okay, what am I going to do? I need
to let it go. And you basically have to, you don't need to ring the individual
or send them an email or put the post on Facebook or wherever it goes to say, I
forgive you, my child.

That's the last thing you want to do. You're only giving
forgiveness within yourself because it doesn't matter. While they're worried
about you, their energy is burning up. While you're worried about them, your
energy is burning up. And that's what we need to work on, the us. So I had all
these papers. I sat down one day when I had enough time and ability and went
right out.

And I literally, in my head, said to these individuals, I know
what you've done to me. I forgive you. Please move on as I need to. And I'm
like, that's not working. So then I had to say it out loud. And far out that
hurt. That was really hard to say. Saying it out loud, their name, the issue
and forgiveness was really hard.

And then at the end of it, I burst into tears for a couple of
hours. I just couldn't believe it. It was such, back to somatic release, it was
such a release, , that it, it spent me for the day. Yeah. And then it took a
few days, so then I finalised that process by taking all my writings and
anything I had left.

That was negative in that space, and I went out and
ceremoniously burnt it. And I don't mean ceremoniously. Did you set it on fire?
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, didn't put a mask on and dance around and do all this
weird shit. I just sat quietly by myself , and set fire to it all until it was
ashes and then buried it in the dirt.

Beautiful. And that cathartic release took a while, but Jesus,
it made a heck of a difference. And it, it, it is, tread your own path. But
something along that space of. Writing your frustration, anger, resentment,
being able to forgive in your heart the damage purely with the intent of being
able to move forward and having that release and then you go and burn it is
there's something symbolic about the whole thing that ritualises it and it
could take you a day, an hour, a year to get through that stage might be
something that doesn't work for you.

But for me, it worked and then that enabled my progress in, .
In the treatment to go forward. Suddenly the counselling was working more and
then boom on a bell curve. I increased my capacity to be happy and to move
forward so much quicker. It was just awesome. So, and that's, yeah, here, ,
where we are now is I guess a good point.

We're currently. We do farm sits and house sits every now and
then if we want to stop somewhere. , we're in the middle of Queensland on a
beautiful property looking after cows and chooks and irrigation. And I'll tell
you, getting out into country is just magic. It's so grounding. I talk to cows
and feed them carrots and don't really care if they understand what I'm saying.

It helps me. I'm doing stuff for me. So that's a good thing. So
good.

Smiling, happy. Yeah, I have that every now and then. It's kind
of wild. Yeah, yeah, it was a long time. I couldn't. It was very, very unique.

Rosie Skene:

Um, do
you have any comments on the TPD situation?

Brad Cooper:

I think the TPD situation is shamefully unattainable in a cost basis.

And I understand that. that doesn't help police understand or
mitigate that they feel like they're being dropped, ignored and treated like
shit. Um, because essentially you're putting yourself in the line for not much.
, that said, other agencies across Australia have even less than what we have.
So it is a grateful account.

And I can say that, you know, whether I'm out now or out Next
year, there's still something, but it's not a great deal. And I'm very grateful
for what I got, but it's, yeah, it is, it is unattainable. But I go back to
what I said before, that it's like the RBA raising the interest rates,
expecting economy to fix.

You're only affecting part of the community. You're not
affecting everyone. If, if the RBA and the government was serious, and this is
my non financially trained brain, Look at doing something with tax that
everyone pays, a GST, like if people are going to go buy expensive stuff, hike
the tax up, the government gets more money, it's a disincentive for people to
buy expensive stuff, but in a cost of living crisis, we need food, we need
petrol, fuel, whatever you need, you need the basics,

and that's what now, we see a lot of people are going without,
because, The interest rate's hiked, the cost of everything's gone up.

Um, so, so normal people or struggling people are suddenly
struggling harder. They can't afford it. Yeah, so I mean, like that, you need a
different approach. And same with the TPD Disability for Cops and for any other
agency. You need a different approach. You need to stop harming them from
within. As I said, like, the job is hard enough, but if you have a good support
network and you have good resilience and you're fostered now because they're
bringing in a lot of programs that some people like, some don't, but at least
they're trying, they're trying to bring it in, but it'll take a while for that
to do a full circle.

While you can look after yourself in the job, you've got a
great, great opportunity, apart from an untimely incident, that you should be
given all the kudos, like if you're killed on duty or severely hurt on duty,
you should be. Looked after a lot better, , but yeah, they need to stop hurting
people with a death of a thousand paper cuts.

It was actually an individual in management that, , referred to
that as his tactic. And everyone knew that as the tactic, and it was, it was
harsh. But it's like kicking a dog after it's peed on the couch. Or even when
the dog doesn't understand the correlation because largely you're not getting
in trouble for something you've done because they can't justify that you're
getting in trouble for something remote.

So it's a big way but yeah, it's, , you need to look at a
different way of treating first responders so that they do feel safe, they do
feel secure, they can go and do their job properly. And then come back and
hopefully be supported, because I think that will, , that will create longevity
and resilience.

Yeah.

Because, unfortunately, yeah, in the moment, you try and leave,
the police is a good paying job, you try and leave that to go and do something
else, and you're struggling. Because a lot of cops, unfortunately, set
themselves up with the must have house and the must have car and all that kind
of stuff, so you're already up here with the high level of, , Expenditure.

And, and a lot of them I dealt with were counting the overtime
into their budget.

Rosie Skene:

That's
right. Yeah. Overtime

Brad Cooper:

or you
go back to base wage. Yeah. You lose, like when I did, when I went off in
highway back in 2010, yeah, I lost two grand a month and that made an impact.
Yeah. Um, so it is, it is harsh in there, but it's just, , I hope people in the
job now can still do the job well.

, And just be mindful to, to, yeah, look after themselves,
because that's, you're going to need to hold your own line until the company
can bring it up. There is some places that are supporting better than others,
don't get me wrong, but I think it's going to be a longer time for that. And I
think that will cause that cultural change and the support from within, the
proper support from within, will really change, , in terms of the injury rate.

Because I'm not, I'm not negativing it at all, don't get me
wrong. Um, but. If you're struggling and you get to the point where you, your
bucket's full, for whatever reason, you need time off. And you should be
supported for that. But like many, especially in remote areas, you take time
off. They want you to continue your tenure to get the money for your body, you
know, like you experience.

You need to keep going and then it's like, well, Why can't you?
And it's like, you're questioned. It's like, you're not my doctor. Um,

Rosie Skene:

and if
it was a broken, psychological injuries are really tricky too, for people to
navigate because it's not a physical injury that you can see, feel, you know,
any of that sort of stuff.

So it's like, if someone's got a broken leg, you're not going
to tell them to come back after two weeks after a surgery or something like
that. I like, or ask them or question them about it. Like you can see it. I
think that's a real struggle for people as well. And. And they question
themselves, like, well, why can't I go back?

I have had two weeks off work. What's going on? It's a tricky
one.

Brad Cooper:

And then
they get back and as I've experienced, they get a, , a directive memorandum to
answer why they were seen at a coffee shop when they were on sick leave. And
you're like, seriously? That one day that took all week for someone to gear up
the courage to go and have a coffee with their friend and just get out.

And then someone's seen them and gone, Oh, they can't be that
sick to having coffee. In the worlds of Kamal, why are people so unkind? It's
just, it's weird that that happens. And instead of, instead of it just being a
supervisor going, Hey, are you okay? Someone said, you're out. Oh yeah, I've
managed to finally drag my ass out of bed and got to a coffee shop today.

And I think it really helped. Would you like to meet me for
coffee next week? And we can talk about return to work instead of that. Yeah.
Which would increase the prospect of coming back. You get directive memorandum
or a formal interview, but then they'll bring up, Oh, and your caseload
suffered. Well, you haven't been here for a month.

So how could I, I haven't

Rosie Skene:

actioned
cases

Brad Cooper:

like,
no, you're avoiding it. It's yeah. So I mean, you can go around in circles, but
I hold hope. , because I know people now that are going into it and, and people
that are in radio and stuff. Because if we can't sit back and think. Yeah, the
cops are there to support us.

What hope is there? And the amount of shit I see on social
media feeds now where people are becoming influencers,

or some other term, because they're filming their interactions
with cops trying to be sovereign citizens, or just being dickheads. And the
cops are doing their best not to, because they're not allowed to anymore,
physically communicate.

They've got a body worn, they're live streaming on TikTok or
whatever. You've got to be professional, which is fine, I've got no issue with
that. But how much shit can you take before you blow up? You know, where's that
going to be where, where the button's pushed? And sometimes it's happened, but
where is it that This is where I sometimes might have got in trouble.

Yeah. So I think, I
think that Brad would come back if I was on the street today, and a lot of
people would lose their phones and I'd probably be, um. He probably wouldn't
last long. No, well, you know, that was my psych's recommendation that if I
went back it was going to end poorly.

So, you know, I trusted him and now I teach people who want to
kill me how to drive for a living. And it's very calming. Yeah. I don't know
how it all works. Rosie, help me understand

Rosie Skene

it. I
know. I've done all, I've looked into it all as well. I don't know. Some things
just work.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,
you find out what works and you stick with it, eh?

That's just where you have to go, I think. But, yeah, I'm
really stoked to see you looking so happy and well. , I know that your last,
yeah, all the IMEs and all that stuff. I know how taxing that is. You do get
over it. It's just about, a lot of it, a lot of my recovery and a lot of the
stuff in here is about giving yourself permission to feel.

Yeah.

Because we've been so doctored to hide. Um, or cover it up with
alcohol or, or any other vice and it's giving yourself permission to feel and
sometimes that's hard, but when your body accepts, and this is more woo woo,
but when I've found for me, I try and give myself permission, I chew my nails,
I, I can have no idea why I've done it since I was a kid, I stopped briefly,
but then I still do it, and there's all this stuff about give yourself
permission to feel what you're feeling when you chew your nails, and I'm like,
okay, I'll do that, and I still keep chewing, I can't find, I can't tap in, but
on other spaces, I can tap into Give yourself permission to feel what this
emotion is coming up.

You know, you get it burning and you're like, why am I feeling
like I want to cry or scream? Give yourself permission. And when everything
connects and goes, yeah, okay, finally you get a connection. And then it's
like, oh, that was really good release. I now understand what that is. But it's
all hard and part of the parcel of, of, um, of development, you know, post
traumatic stress disorder, post traumatic stress development.

, there was another phrase that, , post traumatic growth. Yeah.
Post traumatic growth, that's the phrase. It's reframing it. You can say, yeah,
I've got a disorder, I've got this, I've got an injury, I've got an illness,
but out of it does come growth if you allow it to happen and if you choose to.

And that's, yeah, I don't want to sit here miserable. No,

Rosie Skene:

you're
alive for a long time. You're dead for a long time, even longer, but the time
that you're here, you can't let. You know, you let those things affect you for
a while, but you have to try and move past it for the good of yourself, but
also everyone that's around you.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,
and they say there's a saying that, oh, you only live once. Well, I challenge
that. You only die once. You live every day. Absolutely. That's not my saying,
but I've read it and I believe it wholeheartedly. It's, it's one of those
things you need to look forward to. Um, I, yeah, I've been to that dark pit.

I'm glad I got out of it. , others that I know haven't been so
lucky and it's just a shame. He's the shame that you can't reach more people
before they consider that the only thing I could think of is, is, , for me, I
didn't want to tell anyone because I felt ashamed. And I think a lot of other
people that I've been.

involved with, , who have had near experiences had a similar
thing. So it, it may be that if you're sitting there and you feel there's no
other way out for me, it was, I've got no money. We've got nothing left. We're
going to lose our house. Cause I've lost all this money. We were so
overcapitalised I was a perfect example.

We're so overcapitalised. We lost the money two grand a month.
That was what we lost in mortgage payments. I was angry at the kids. No one
wanted me home. No one wanted to be near me. I was in so much pain. Everyone
would be better off without me. That's, I think, for me and what I assume
others in that space go through based on what I've spoken, who I've spoken to.

, and it is a feeling of helplessness and it's, it's often with
empathy type people that it's like, well, I don't want to put this on anyone
anymore. So I'm going to take this action and everyone will be better. , I do
have a will now, but I'm not going to do it. Go down that path anymore, uh,
everyone will be better without me and we'll just take this path.

All I can anyone if they get to that point, pick up the phone,
call someone and just say, look, I'm having a really bad time. Call me. I don't
care. Get in touch through the links. Call me. I'll talk to you. There is so
many agencies out there, but I think also as first responders and when you get
to that, that dark level, if you're really in that dark level, it's hard to
speak to someone you don't know for fear of.

Almost the fear of being made look like a fool, like you've got
that fear of, no, they won't understand and I don't want to be ridiculed and,
but yeah, I can tell you, if you have that, if you have that, like, I had
someone turn up at the door as an intervention to just. Let's do something
else. Let's try a different path here.

Did

Rosie Skene:

he know
that's what you were up to? Did he know you're having such a tough time and he
turned up or did he just have a calling to come and see you that day?

Brad Cooper:

He, he
knew I was off and he knew I was in pain cause we were catching up and I was,
you know, for something to do, I'd go down and catch him at the church and help
out with audio stuff.

Cause I used to do mixing and stuff. Um, he didn't know that
that was what was going on. He just, Yeah, he just had a, he hadn't, he hadn't
ever turned up before without plans. He just turned up this day and said, I
just, I had to come and have a coffee with you. I had to come and see you. Um,
so I'm going to hang with you for a while.

I need to. And I'm like, okay. And then it was, , days later,
he said, he sort of asked me, he goes, you're all right. Like, he was trying to
make sense of what had happened. Yeah. He didn't understand it himself. He
trusted in his God, , but he was, he had a feeling he had to come and see me
and he needed to do it.

So he did it and I was there and it all went well. But he was
still trying to reconcile and it took a couple weeks and then I sat down and
said, Look, this is what was happening that day. And he just gave me the
biggest hug and we both burst into tears and it was like, Wow. Cause it, it
almost, he was sitting there going, what?

Like you told me to go, , what happens? What did I do? Like
nothing. It looked normal. Like he just, he was almost, you know, Chris's kind
of, he's like, Oh, look, he's a bouncy bear. So, and he still is God love him.
He's up at Bundaberg. I still keep in touch not as often as I should, but he's
still always in my thoughts.

Um, but yeah, when that moment clicked and he finally knew why
he was sent there, he was so relieved that. It worked the way he did, and we
spent a lot of time together after that. It was really cool.

Rosie Skene:

I think
that would have been so, yeah, like you said, amazing for him to know that, to
follow that instinct.

Brad Cooper:

Mm.

Rosie Skene:

Was
actually for a purpose, even though you didn't tell him for a few weeks. He
definitely and I and then he would continue to do that and listen to those
little voices that he or he's God that he is To do to do those things. That's
yeah, I find that those things are amazing, you know

Brad Cooper:

Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

I'm not
very religious but I can If someone that is religious, I could say, yeah,
that's your God talking to you to do those things.

Brad Cooper:

Yeah.
And look, I thought after that, I thought, okay, yeah, look, I'll, I'll see
what you, I've never been shy of religion and, and hearing what they've got to
talk about. The Buddhists are like that. There's a whole lot of stuff I've
talked about. No worries. , But I went down and I'm like, okay. And then they
had these, , big blue police Bibles.

They were kind of police ified. Yeah. I had police action
photos in it and it was kind of a Bible for dummies, you know, so we could
understand it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. ,
cause.

Brad Cooper:

Did you
get one?

Rosie Skene:

I was
going to say, we're not known for our intelligence. That's not true.

Brad Cooper:

It's
just that it came, it came out in plain English, like I had the tiny one from
the Gideons that I did my swearing on when I, when I marched out.

Not again that I was religious, but I just thought, no, if
there's any entity, God or universe or whatever it is, I don't put a figure on
it, but all right, this could be a pathway to it. So that'll do.

Um, but yeah, now I, I definitely will for a long time. I
believe there's something. So for me, it's like just the universe. And it works
well with meditation and putting it out to the universe and manifesting if
you're into that or just relaxing or just connecting and being present and
giving thanks to, you know, not praying at a dinner table, but, you know, I
have gratitude for my amazing life.

Now, I have gratitude for my, my health, my, um, my ability to
be doing this and talking to you. Like, who would have thunk back in the
Inverell funny driving days when we're going out. Um, doing weird stuff that,
that would be doing this now. Were you in the car when I took my dog to the
vet? Yeah. That was you.

Ah, that was hilarious. I keep telling people about that. The
most expensive dog in the world and boy did it stink.

Rosie Skene:

No, it's
definitely one of my fond, not at the time, but one of my fondest memories.
Cause it swallowed a sock, didn't it?

Brad Cooper:

No, it
was, .

Yeah. German shepherd, beautiful German shepherd. Um, I had
two, he started getting sick and off food and all that kind of stuff. Took him
to one of the vets in town because my other favourite vet x ray machine was out.
And, um, and they said, Oh, it's got a heart murmur. I'm like, what? And I
listened to it and I could hear something, but I'm like, I don't know.

I'm not a fucking vet. I don't know. And they said, Oh, you'll
probably die in a couple of days. Here's some painkillers. I'm like, fuck off.
No, not, not accepting this, not accepting this. And then a couple of days
later, and I'm like, nah, and yeah, I rang the vet, I think. I remember for
some reason I thought it was someone else, but I also thought it might have
been you.

So I'm glad it was you. It was me. I checked now. I remember we
were doing a day and it was like, right, I just, I just got to go home and do
this thing. So we screamed up in the highway car, got to the dog, couldn't
walk. He was nearly dead. Rang my vet, the good one, put him in the back car
and we're going out there.

And on the way, the most putrid stink. It'd come out of him. It
was rank. It was just, ah, full speed, windows down, yeah, it was gross. Um,
and it turned out, yeah, that she opened him up pretty well straight away, his
bowel ruptured and if he'd have stayed home he would have been dead by the time
I got home.

Yeah, yeah. So

he'd, um, but when, when we learned of this I got home to the
then family and said does anyone feed and, feed Boof any, um, thing that
shouldn't have had? And a pipe up says, oh, about a week ago. He ate my ice
block. I said, pardon me? And apparently they'd given a, like an ice cream on a
ice cream stick, let him lick it, but being a German shepherd and hungry, you
just took the whole thing.

So the whole paddle pop stick went into his bowel, twisted it,
locked up. So they cut out like, you know, half a meter of bowel. It was all
necrotic. It ruptured. It was bang. It came back good as new later. But, um,
yeah, that was, that was one of the funny things that I remember. Uh, not
getting in trouble for using the police car for.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
no, that was funny. I, , another one, I remember talking to Rob about, um,
being with you, and I must have been really junior because it was when I was a
pro and, , had to do the rotations, like through the detectives and highway and
all that sort of stuff. And I was with you and I did another one with Shannon
Cobley.

Um, but I was with you one day and we were in between Inverell
and Glen Innes and, um, you pick some, we were on the side of the road and you.
With the, um, radar, and you pick someone up, I don't know how fast going
really fast. And you, you're like, you alright with this one? I'm like, yeah,
yeah, no worries.

And I went over and had a chat to them. I was talking to them,
I don't know, maybe five minutes or so, like, oh, ages, having a big old chat.
And then they, they drove off. And you, then I walked back over to you and you
went, what's going on? I'm like, Oh no, they're right. They're just going to
their mom's funeral.

You're like, what the fuck? They must be about doing 35 over or
something like that. I'm sure you're expecting me to come over and grab the tin
book. And I was like, Oh no, no, I sort of feel bad for the guy. And you're
like, he's probably got drugs and guns in that car.

Brad Cooper:

Was he,
was he happy to talk to you?

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, yeah. Yeah, that's one of those
things. That's what we learn and that's what we, you get that gut feeling of

Why is

Brad Cooper:

someone,
Why is someone so happy to talk about this or happy to take a high speed fine?
Because that's the least of their problems. They've got a ton of shit in the
boot or something, or a dead body.

Yeah, I remember. That's hilarious. So funny. The benefit is
there's always another one to come along later. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

there's
always, there was,

Brad Cooper:

um.
Well, I remember you saying, Oh, I feel bad giving people tickets. Do you like
arresting them? Oh, yeah, that's fun. Well, what's the difference?

Rosie Skene:

That
didn't last long. I used to love giving out tickets by the end.

The other thing I wanted to say to you, because you mentioned
it, is , when you listened to my story and you, you know, you felt that little
bit of responsibility and that you, you could have held me or protected me in
some way, I just wanted to let you know that you really had a big influence,
even though I was in GDs and you're in highway.

When I think back to those very early days and when you become
a police officer, you know, they say sometimes to grab things from other people
and that, that will form how you are, because I felt really unsure of the
police officer that I wanted to be, , especially being female. And there wasn't
that many.

I mean, there was Neddy who was an amazing role model as a
female police officer. Um, but you had a really great impact on my style of
policing and I think it was because of the kindness that you showed and how
fair you were to people, even as a highway patrol officer. I like how you put
that caveat in.

But you weren't like, you know, the crunchy back type and you
weren't That type of highway patrol officer you, and you're still doing it now,
you know, you wanted to educate people, um, and show kindness to people, and
you definitely showed that to me, and working with you and seeing that, and how
the results that you got out of that as well with people, that really, um,
meant a lot that I could do that with you, so even though you weren't there in
the darkest times, you were there right at the start, and it means a lot, so
thank you very much.

Brad Cooper:

Thank
you. Lucky it's not video recording and seeing my tears, but thank you. That's
beautiful. I appreciate that. It's, it's good to know. Yes. Um, I, I appreciate
that to be, to be seen as that kind of a person in that space because that's,
yeah, obviously my personality did or my desire did come through the police
part of it.

, I just, yeah, for the most part, couldn't be a hard ass and
you wanted to help people and. Be there to support. Why knock down the person
that you want to rely on to save your ass in a gunfight? A lot of it happens,
but no, that's, that's really beautiful. Thanks, Rose.

Rosie Skene:

No,
that's okay. It's true. It's important to tell people how you feel about them,
I think, even though it's years later.

And especially when I rolled Inverell 15 and you were the
first one on scene I was very grateful.

Brad Cooper:

Oh,
that, yeah. That it was you that turned

Rosie Skene:

up.

Brad Cooper:

You poor
off sider, he was just shaking his head.

Rosie Skene:

Poor old
Joey, love Joey.

Brad Cooper:

Uh, no,
that was, oh dear. And

Rosie Skene:

that's
the incident where we had choir practice. So I, um, after we all went to the
hospital and got all cleared to go home and it was definitely, I felt a sense
of responsibility to put on a few beers.

So we did. And, you know, even though I know Joey and I both
still struggle with vehicles and, um, driving and have a little bit of trauma
in relation to that.

Brad Cooper:

Hmm.

Rosie Skene:

But I
really think that that helped, um, in that instance in particular, for us to
sort of move through it and what happened and have a bit of a laugh at the end
of the day.

And everyone was okay, thank God. Um, Inverell 15 was never
okay again. That was the write off. It was a Ranger though, so. Yeah,

Brad Cooper:

with the
pod and no upgrade suspension and that whole issue they had with the Varley
pods on a standard back car. They were overloaded. They were illegal. They were
just Ridiculously poorly.

managed until they did upgrades and now, oh, they're still not
great.

Yeah.

Brad Cooper:

Much
safer in a highway car.

Absolutely.

Brad Cooper:

Much
more fun, much faster.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
good times. Oh, Brad Cooper, thank you so much for coming on.

I really appreciated the chat, it's been amazing.

Brad Cooper:

It's
been a blast and I appreciate your kind words. It's really good to see you
looking healthy and well. And, , yeah, a lot of people I now see that I knew in
the job and you can see that next layer of their life, the, , the growth period
that, , who am I now and moving forward.

It's great to see you in that space now and doing so
wonderfully with this. Cause. The message you've got is awesome. I'm honoured to
be on to put my two cents worth in. and yeah, if you need help getting back in
the driver's seat, I'll come over. I'll come down and we'll do some more, ,
funny driving and see if we can help you overcome your fears.

Rosie Skene:

I
probably, yeah, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Oh, that's

Brad Cooper:

awesome.

Rosie Skene:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me
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Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
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think. Have the best week.