Rosie:  Hey everyone. And welcome to this week's episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Before we get started, I just wanted to let you know that in March, on March 12, actually, we are opening the doors to the first responder mental wellness method for the very first time. I'm so thrilled that all the hard work that I'm putting over the last few years, especially the last 12 months, has come together into this 12 week program  for you guys, for first responders and veterans who want to take more control of their mental wellness journey.

With the support of someone who has been there before and has learned a lot of skills to help you along the way. So go and check it out at tacticalyogaaustralia. com forward slash first responder mental wellness method. You can sign up for early entry and to be on the waitlist. I really hope to see you guys inside. 

Today's episode is really special. Lindsay Mamone is a really good friend of mine. We worked together, uh, on the mid North coast and he is a father of four, a former frontline police officer with 20 years of service. And during his career, he collected numerous awards and citations for his care and empathy towards people across traumatic and confrontational events. 

His ability to process several events involving a range of emotional experiences, both typical for police officers and community members, made him an invaluable asset to his team and the community he worked with. Lindsay remained committed to his role as an officer, as a peer support officer and physical trainer for many years.

Plus, a crisis supporter with Lifeline Australia. He continued to provide emotional support to those in need, helping to soften human suffering, which rendered him uniquely positioned to recognise and identify individuals traumatised by overwhelming events, both in the workplace and abroad.  Lindsay's dedication to his job has taken a toll on his mental health and physical health as he experiences chronic pain and cumulative PTSD. 

In 2019, following the bushfires in his rural town, Lindsay established The Health Project. A community focused group aimed at addressing issues related to men's mental health, community mental health, and working with organizations for the betterment of the community.  Then after fracturing his spine in a mountain bike accident in 2022, Lindsay used his recovering time to write a children's book called Why Fun Always Wins.

The book is a testament to Lindsay's resilience and positive outlook on life despite the challenges he's faced.  Personally, Lindsay is an amazing guy and I can't wait for you to check out this episode. So let's get straight into it.

Intro:   Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a medically retired New South Wales police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community. 

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions.  Together, we'll uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter more fulfilling life whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life starts right here. 

Rosie: Welcome to the podcast, Lindsay. 

Lindsay: Thank you. 

Rosie:  Thanks for being here.  So I think we'll just get straight into it. , I just wanted to talk about how you came to join the New South Wales police force. What led you in that direction?

Lindsay: School and playing sport, especially in the PE hall all the time.   And then once my HSC results came out, I realised that I wasn't going to get into, , PE teaching , cause I didn't have very good results.

So.  I think after Christmas, my old man said, Oh, you got to start getting a job now.  So I went out and got a job,, pretty soon thereafter in the CBD, just some finance job.  Um, but I always had this inkling that I wanted to join the police, but I was quite young. I was, I was, I was 17,  18 then.  And after a bit of time, I put in paperwork and we even had an open day that I had to go to somewhere out Western Sydney. 

Um, and I went there with my parents and then it seemed all right. And I think I even applied for,  I did applied for the academy. And I was still, I must have been 18, 19. And I got into a class  and I thought, I'm still young.  I'm going to get one more year of maturity out of me. So I was 19  when I got in.

And I remember even the finance place that I worked in the city, I remember handing my paperwork in to my boss.  And her name was Priscilla and she still said, Oh, Lindsay, please don't join the police. And I went, Oh, I am actually. And she's like, Oh, no.  Um, so yeah, that's, that was a long way around the version of how, how and why.

But  I don't know why I did. I do try and reflect that now as to why did I join the police?  I think it was just probably like most people that do. It just comes out of that  good cause, really. That you, that you want to do a good thing for people.  Um, that's probably where it came from, but I certainly didn't have family, um, in the police.

So I didn't have any mentors that I was referring to, but  yeah, that's kind of where the journey started. Um, maybe it was the old blue healers TV shows,  yeah, maybe not that I really watch it, but, um,  yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's, it's funny now to go, geez, what was, what was really that itch there, but  I suppose, you know, been a bit lost when I was post HSC.

And not really having a career that I could move into because of uni. Um, it was, it seemed like an easier thing to do  straight out of school. So yeah, I had my one year to get mature and I certainly did. Um, and then I went down. So you joined at 19? I was at the academy when I was, well, the class that I had, it was back in 2002.

I hate saying that now because now I feel old.  Um, yeah, it was back in 2002, but because the class was so big, it was the first of the political party. I say political because the government had promised X amount of cops within a small timeframe. And so there wasn't enough accommodation at Goulburn at the time.

So they actually put us out at Richmond University,  which is fantastic for me because it was only a 35 minute drive from my mum and dad's because I was still living with them.  And that, you know, that, that was great too, because the uni out there at Richmond is. I think it's a lot of agricultural stuff, so it was a very laid back, um, top of uni.

So we went out there for session one. Yeah. Right. Um, and it was great. Um, it was nice and easy. Yeah. 

Rosie: That's nice. That's a bit better than Goulburn weather. 

Lindsay: Oh, yeah. It was a shock. I can tell you, I'm going to Goulburn. I remember my parents tried to, they still laugh about it today, trying to warn me, you know, Goulburn's got lots of different weather. I'm like, ah, I'll be right. Jeez, I was wrong.  

Rosie: So you only did. The three months down there though. 

Lindsay: Oh yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It was just that last session down there in, in Goulburn so  yeah, that was pretty good. That went quite quick. Um, and then we ended up graduating, um,

 December  2002 and it was, geez, it was hot. It was,  and I think out of our class, it was 640 people that graduated or thereabouts.  Wow. It was huge and it was like the hottest day ever and like people just started literally dropping like flies  on the Parade ground.  And even one guy, he apparently passed out before he even hit the ground. And he was right in front of our group. And I still remember, like, my memory's pretty shot these days, but I still remember that moment. Like he hit the ground and his jaw hit the ground first. It was just that noise.

And I remember then going, Oh God. And then I started getting dizzy. And then, yeah, it was one of those special ones. I got  helped off, had some water and stuff, but yeah, it came back. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it was, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was an experience.  

Rosie: That parade ground would have been chock a block.

Lindsay: It was chock a block. Yeah. Yeah. It was full on. Um, it's still funny how I can remember it quite nicely, um, in nice terms, but yeah, it was, but if you go back there, it's no different.  Even though it was  22 years ago, I say rolling my eyes, but yeah,  it was a long time ago, but it still feels like you could just walk back into how it was, probably go stand at the same spot and stuff like that.

But yeah, that's probably because of the week before where you just practised marching around and learning how to walk properly. But yeah,  it was different. It was an experience. Yeah. 

Rosie: Where'd you go from Goulburn? 

Lindsay: Uh, first posting for me was at Hawkesbury Way, , which is Windsor and Richmond.  , which wasn't too bad because I kind of knew some of the area.

I think it was my third pick.   And, and I, I look at it now in hindsight. I'm glad I, I got those areas because I was still pretty green  with, , I shouldn't say the real world,  probably more the dark world. Um, for those that understand what that means,  , that have been in emergency service or just come from a different background.

Yeah. I certainly was like, I was just a quiet kid, so I was, I was very naive to what that world was going to bring. So I'm glad I got to go there in the way of,  um,  it just eased me into it. Yeah. And I had some really good mentors that showed me a lot down there. , which is fantastic,  but I ended up later transferring to Mount Druitt,  , in Western Sydney, which I really loved, but I remember thinking, geez, if I was If I was that 19, 20 year old kid starting here, I don't know if I would have coped.

Lindsay: Yeah. Cause come summertime in Western Sydney, it's, it's quite  full on. And if you're not on that train track with everyone else going a hundred miles an hour, you're not going to cope type thing. So  yeah, it was like a slow buildup for me. So I was pretty lucky. I reckon.  

Rosie: So how long were you at Mount Druitt for? 

Lindsay: Um,  four years, I think. Yeah. Maybe. I did 10 years to Sydney and then 10 years, uh, Mid North Coast.   I can't really remember the exact time, but I loved it. I honestly loved it. It was different.  It was really different, but just a good bunch of people. Um, funny people,  um, as well, but yeah, you just all got along.

You had to because  the first time I moved to Western Sydney, it was just, it was another eye opener, but yeah, it was, it was just a fast pace, a little bit violent world as well.  Um, too, but yeah, I certainly  was so supported by the people that I worked with and really enjoyed it too. So that was really the main thing.

Rosie: It makes a difference, hey? When you know that. The team's on your side. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And everyone's on the same, and I say everyone, I mean, and I 100 percent always said this, those that you work with and then those that you are with every single day, to have such a strong team and, and, you know, team leaders that,  um, I suppose protect you in the way of like, and it was different, like what's on the street versus what, what is written in a business charter is always going to be two different things.

Um, and I certainly always clashed with that.  Um, but yeah, it was, it was great just having great teams to the point where, you know, like we'd socialise  outside of work because everyone got on well, which is, it's always a good sign of having a good time as well,  especially in that industry, but yeah.  

Rosie: And then you went to the mid north coast from Mount Druitt

Lindsay: yeah, yeah, yeah, went up there. Um, basically we were living out in Sydney West. And  we wanted to move cause the family was getting bigger, but we knew, especially on our wages,  um, it's not really a job you're ever going to join for fame and fortune and riches. Um, so we just, we did a camping trip for a friend's wedding from Sydney to Noosa. 

And yeah, we just started looking outside.    The area really and just how beautiful the coast was. So we're pretty fortunate in that way and we actually caught up with someone on the Mid North Coast and then they said, oh have a look on real estate. com and couldn't believe the house prices but yeah, just some of the areas that we fell in love with really. 

Um, it's so nice , that we did. We're so fortunate now for what we have versus what we can afford in Sydney and we still wouldn't be able to.   But we're certainly super happy now for the lifestyle that we have. Fortunate in that way.

Rosie: It's a nice spot. 

Lindsay: It's a lovely spot, , and there's lots of places outside of Sydney.

And I was always Sydney born and bred. So it was  certainly a, I took it on a thing. I was, I was quite nervous about leaving because even the position that I had was a training role  in Sydney. So the, the drop in pay was significant. Versus what I was going to get out of lifestyle. That's what I had to weigh up.

And I still remember having a sleepless night. I remember being in the lounge room in our house in Western Sydney and writing a list of good and bad, what the positives were out of leaving and what the negatives were. And  the positives there actually was a lot more.  And I still don't regret it, , to this day, , just for, you know, the exposure that we have for, for lifestyle, for the family is so much better.

Rosie: Yeah. So good.  So you're in the Mid North Coast for 10 years? 

Lindsay: Yeah, pretty much. Well, but did 10 years. Um, and most of it was always uniform. I did plenty of anti theft stuff, which is  you're playing clothes, not detective work, but just yet. Yeah. Still getting busy and involved in stuff. , but yeah, predominantly it was all first response stuff.

Yeah. Triple O calls and stuff.  

Rosie: I want to ask, did you enjoy it? But  I guess there comes a point when you don't. 

Lindsay: Yeah. But for the most part, oh yeah. And I find that question now, come up with my kids when they ask. Yeah. Did I enjoy it? Yeah. And it's a real hard It is. 

Rosie: That's why I stumbled across the question.

Yeah. Yeah.  , it's a hard thing now to reflect because I'm still very much in that  stage of, of post career, of having that. Did I enjoy it? And, and a hundred percent I, I know I did. 

Rosie:

Lindsay: Yeah. Um, I certainly got.  a lot of enjoyment. , and without big noting myself, I thought I did a good job  of the roles that I had, , both, you know, for the community and my team, that type of stuff. And I think it was more in the latter years that I started  the effective of more getting upset with things. 

But yeah, I, I certainly did. Yeah. I can't deny that I didn't enjoy it. It was certainly a fun job. What I loved about it is that every day was different.  , I was outdoors a lot. , I, yeah, you'd have a great team. No, two days were ever the same.  , you did some great work. You did some bad work, but you also did some great work.

And when you, like I said before,  when you have a good team or a good team mentor,  you know, the days go so quick  when people genuinely care. , and that was probably one of the things that  I'm glad that I had those mentors cause I certainly thought I could pass those values on when I became that team mentor.

But  yeah, when you have a great team and everything goes well, the other days go quite quick and you're there for each other.   Probably to your answer in a, in a just huge long roundabout way. Yeah. 

Rosie: No, I know where you're coming from. Like I, I struggled to answer that, but I know that I did.

Lindsay: Yeah. You do enjoy it. 

Rosie: Yeah. And then. And then, like, I just didn't anymore, I guess. So I guess, like, we are talking about triumph beyond trauma. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Rosie: So, are you happy to move into, , you moving out of the police? Lindsay: Yeah, yeah. 

Rosie: And when you knew that it was time for you to maybe seek some help, or what were your early signs?

Lindsay: Um, oh, look, early signs, oh geez, there's probably so many, ,  early signs now in reflection.  , for sure, like  even when I was in Sydney and I think,  I don't know what you found, but certainly post kids, like the first time  we had kids and then you got a job involving kids and then suddenly you're just like,  Oh, I suppose empathy's the word.

And then the full reflection of,  and it was, it was a hard thing not to do, but if, you know, if this was my baby  or if this was my kid. And I think that's when things slowly started to, to turn. And that's more on reflection. I probably couldn't say it at the time. I do remember attending a horrible job at Western Sydney involving  a young family and the loss of their, their young baby.

And I remember thinking to myself,  and I was a supervisor and I remember thinking. I really just don't wanna go in the house. 'cause I think I just had a young, very young child at the time  and I thought, I don't want to go in  and I can, and I can't tell you why I was telling myself not to go in because  I certainly  could've,  but I just remember just going, I don't need to.

And I, and nor did I need to, there was some fantastic people that were there already there doing the right things. Yeah. So I, I didn't need to, just to put that  extra strike on my list to say I've done things.  I don't think it was an early reflection to say, geez, that bucket's getting full. Um,  however, I knew  even when I was in Western Sydney there was,  I'd just go through some weird stages, ,  in Sydney, but there was this one time when just,  it didn't matter what job I seemed to go to, I would just turn up and unfortunately someone had I'd passed away.

Rosie:Oh.

Lindsay: Yeah, it was just so random, like, not, not your normal jobs that you'd turn up to. And  you turn up because someone's noise is too loud and the next thing,  passed away. And you're like, it's like, you just weren't prepared for that. Obviously we.  We get told a similar, like a three line, two line version of what we're going to.

And so you, you're preparing your body to go to a job regardless of how serious it is or not. Yeah. And then just to constantly be hit by those just random acts of, wow, I remember just, I remember going home one of those nights.  Oh no, it was a day shift and I remember just turning on to the M4 motorway in Sydney and I called, it was actually my supervisor at the time, Tony,  and I called him and we just had this conversation.

He's like, do you want me to get you help? And it was probably just nice enough talking to him because he was actually a really good person. , as hard as he was to crack sometimes, but  yeah, I remember just feeling odd then. Um, certainly just this out of touch. Touching us. But yeah, that was probably the early, early stages.

And again, that was on reflection. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rosie: You can see it looking back. 

Lindsay: I can see it now looking back. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Rosie: So what was the, did you have a catalyst for why you left?  Lindsay: I always, I always thank myself as silly as it sounds. I got badly injured.  Um, I ended up fracturing my, um, my good hand, my left wrist during a violent arrest. 

And I still say to this day, had I not  got injured, then I wouldn't have gone and addressed my mental health for sure.  Um, I was certainly getting quite upset and frustrated.  I was certainly treated like  just absolute hell through the organisation. Um, because of the wrist, 

Rosie: Because of the wrist. 

Lindsay: Yeah, because in their eyes I should have healed.

Even though I had surgery, rehab wasn't going well. My early diagnosis from the doctor at the time just wasn't,  just wasn't clear enough.  Yeah, like even,  and it's funny, like even here, like as we talk, like the hand throbs because a lot of the connection is with still, it's still addressed with the PTSD and the anger. 

And the mismanagement and the frustration.  So even here, like I can feel my, my thumb. 

Rosie: So now just talking about it, brings on that aggravation. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And I always know like I've got a medical appointment, , I'll start to feel. , the trauma in it as well, because it, a lot of it is related to that damn hand because of work because of this.

So it's that repetitive cycle of frustration, which I do have to  try and work on. , and I do, , but yeah, it's, it's interesting how, uh, that trauma of the injury is still related to the trauma of the mental  scarring, both the treatment,  , through management that I had for my hand,  but yeah.  the trauma of what I'd seen as well and been through, which all first responders have.

You know, that's probably all exacerbated through the injury, but yeah, I'm certainly  lucky that I got injured in the way of,  I could address my mental health. Rosie: Yeah. So that was how your mental health journey started. So you sought help because of, it started with your wrist and then went from there.

Lindsay: Yeah.  I'd certainly gotten help before. Yeah. I certainly had from a wonderful psychologist who had come up to the house as well at the time. Actually, that was great. But I remember I had to  put that hand out at work to say, Hey, like, you  know, I'd been to something horrific.  And I'd been to, like, within four days, just seeing  a ridiculous amount of people that have passed away in the amount of that many days.

And it's not in a clinical scene of, oh, but they're at the hospital. Like, it was in just terrible situations Yeah.  And I remember having to make the phone call  to one of the HR people going, Hey, I like, I'm not feeling right.  And that was one thing that kind of irked me too. 

Rosie: That they didn't pick up on it.?

Lindsay: Correct. Yeah. And that was certainly a big bugbear of mine is that,  you know, I'm,  I had to put my hand up for these things, which is good.

I'm glad that I did,  but there was never, I never felt that there was a responsibility to say,  Hey, by the way, mate, you shouldn't go to that. I actually remember,  I remember actually receiving a phone call once and I was at the hospital and I was dealing with someone that had passed away and I get a phone call on my phone and it's one of the,  the, um, bosses and they're like, what are you doing at that job? 

I don't understand. Well, you shouldn't be at that job. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, uh, this is, unfortunately this is what we have to do. And he's like, well, you're on a list. You shouldn't be at that job. And I'm like, well.  No one ever told me that I was  on that list. If you guys have identified something that I'm coming up too many times on jobs that I should be going to, perhaps communication should have been put to that person involved.

Yeah. And then perhaps maybe a care option offered as well. But yeah, look, I can't deny that within the last few years, a lot of the time when I was in the mid north coast, I'd really noticed the disparity between the care of police.  In regional areas versus that in Sydney. And I don't know  why it is part of it.

I put down to the fact of like, Sydney's got some amazing facilities, resources as far as what's offered for first responders, but also think to the amount of work that regional people have to do.  , because it's only them,  where in Sydney, it was because there was so many jobs and so many resources as far as personnel goes, you know, you might not have to go to that bad job that day because someone else had to, where in regional areas, it's just you. 

So it's that constant exposure of wearing it down.  And then what I found in the regional area that I went to, they just.  There was just zero care, um, at all for those, those people that had to constantly go to those jobs. So I certainly became  really aware of that, um, and then tried to do more for the people that I worked with.

 Ad:Hey there, it's Rosie here from Tactical Yoga Australia. I just want to let you know that the doors are open on March 12th to the first responder mental wellness method for the very first time. I know being a former NSW police officer that taking positive steps for your mental wellness without the usual avenues can be challenging, especially for first responders and veterans. 

I understand the struggle of being isolated, or feeling a little anxious about in person classes like yoga.  So let me introduce to you, the First Responder Mental Wellness Method. It's a program born from my own journey, combining life changing practices like breathwork, yoga, and mindfulness. with practical strategies to integrate into your daily life.

Escape the rollercoaster of mental illness and embrace a calmer, happier, and well rested life.  Empowering you to take control of your mental wellness is my passion. Despite life's uncertainties, this program offers you support through weekly coaching, live practices, and a dedicated private Facebook group exclusively for participants. 

I'd love to welcome you into the program. For all the details and early access, head over to Tactical Yoga Australia. com forward slash first respond to mental wellness method. Of course, I'll link to it in the show notes.  Remember that growth and self regulation are within your reach picture where you could be in just three months time.

Now let's get back to the show.   

Rosie: I  Know you reasonably well and I know that you've got a really great, family support system. Um, what other supports did you, did you seek out or,   were they, was any offered to you or did you have to seek them all out for your recovery with your mental health in particular? 

Lindsay: With my mental health? I found a really good doctor. That was probably my good thing. Like as in,  , a great doctor and a great psychologist. , They were probably the best things that I had for my whole thing. Cause the doctor also addressed my mental health.  journey. , and then the psychologist, she's been fantastic as well.  ,  But just finding that right team of support was probably the great thing for me.

But exercises is always been a thing for me.  Um, you know, I've always  tried to look after my  physical well being a lot.  , you know, this was even in Sydney. This is up here as well.  I think it just helped me get through a lot of the anxiety that the job gave and a lot of the issues. , well, and I remember even just being at the gym and something horrific would happen and I would just  push through a hard physical gym session because of the pain of whatever I'd just been through.

So using that, um, to get through and even this like December as most people have a crazy December, 2023, it was really crazy.  And I didn't go to the gym and I knew that post  school holidays, I just had to get back into it. Like I was just starting to go downhill again,  um, which is not a good thing. So luckily I've been getting back up every morning to do it, but yeah, that's been a huge thing for me is the physical fitness for sure.

Rosie: Yeah. I'm the same. I think, , like I always, have gotten up quite early in the morning, like even at work, you know, I'd be up at four in the gym getting ready for the day, like getting ready for the shift and that's something that,  , I found that I had let go of a lot when I was first diagnosed with PTSD.

I wasn't as active as I was, , so now I really try and keep on top of that too, because it really, I find it really does help. Yeah. And any of that energy that I have, like anxious energy seems to get, you know, left on the treadmill or left on the beach or with the weight. So yeah, I have to agree.

Lindsay: Like it's, it's one of the things that I try and encourage anyone that asked me, you know what I do, like you just got to be active. Yeah. And it's a hard thing for people to start. , especially those that haven't done it because the gyms can be quite intimidating.  But it's that also thing of like, just get out, go for a walk, find a spot, you know, drive your car to a car park, go for a beautiful walk. 

Um, that's, yeah, that's, I'll sometimes go and do those types of things, but it's, I find it so important as well. Not, not the physical, like as in, I want to be big and muscly for the gym, that type of stuff. That, that's long gone.  , but it's just more for the headspace that I certainly need that, but it was  years and years ago, a psychologist once said to me, if you want to continue, you need to do this.

So we actually, that's where the plan started that like yourself before a shift, I would come in early.  I would train, , in the Mid North Coast area, we had a gym and then I had a really good buddy and we'd train early in the morning. I'm sure a lot of people thought I was a bit of a show off freak, but it wasn't for the show off part.

It was literally for the, I need to get through this shift or I need to burn, whatever. It just happens during the last shift type stuff, but yeah,  it was certainly a key, key thing for me. 

Rosie: So I know,  myself in my experience of leaving the cops, like it is like a family, like, well,  that's a really loose term. You make good friendships while you're there. And then I've found, you know, since you leave that old saying, like there's nothing more X than an X. So I only have probably a handful of friends now that I.

 Speak to and would actually call friends from the job.  How have you found your, journey with friends from the cops? Are you close with people?  Have you written them all off? How, how has it been for you? Like, did you get any support?  

Lindsay: No, it was really, yeah, it's a, um,  it's funny because I remember going through all the struggles I was going through with my wrist injury, thinking, you know,  all the stuff that I thought I had done well as both an operator  and a peer support officer and all the,  the work that I'd done to help others, not a community based, but the colleagues, I thought I would be looked after by management in the way of, not even looked after, more of the care factor, as in they would care. 

So going through the struggles that I did with them,  ,  I was really surprised by that and quite hurt by that.  And then the day that I had to walk away,  I remember that my phone just didn't even go off,  you know, it's not, you don't get a phone call from anyone. It was more of that. I felt quite ashamed and I was  at work, I was a very jovial muck around, have a laugh when we're on the, not on the job, when we're outside, you know, not dealing with the serious stuff, you know, muck around for sure and have a good laugh, that type of stuff.

And I found through the treatment I was getting while I was still at work, I was so reserved. I would barely come in. I lost who I really was and I would barely say a word, which was not like me.  And then when I left, it was like, Oh, well, he's, he's dead to us,  type stuff. And that was from everyone. Um, even those that I'd worked through, you still got the phone calls from the team leader. 

Which was, you know, I'd filled them out myself from others before and, you know, it's, it is literally an Excel spreadsheet where you tick a box to say you've done it because it comes up on a, um, a must do, you know, I'd filled that sheet out before for others, but  that was the only phone call I'd get. And that was even for the guys that I'd bounce around the truck with. 

Um, and that, that's quite hurtful. Um, especially when you think you're part of a group in an organisation. And yeah, that word family, they tried to throw around a long time ago. And then when you leave,  you're like, nah,  not at all. I learned, unfortunately, going through that whole process. You were just that  dot on the Excel spreadsheet.

Yeah. You were only there to make the minimum staffing requirements.  Didn't matter who you were or what your name was, as long as you were there. So,  yeah, it was quite saddened by that. But I remember bringing it up to one of the dads who I'd worked with, um, at our son's soccer. And I said, like, you know, you guys never called or anything.

And he goes, as bad as, you're right, as bad as it is, we just don't know what to say.  Which is 

Rosie: So they say nothing. 

Lindsay: That's right. Um, and being now on the other side of it, you're like, geez, that's harsh. 

Rosie: It's rough. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Um, because you think you're fine and like, it's fine if I say them now, I get on and stuff like that.

But  yeah, you're just thinking  like if it was your good friend from high school and you guys were always friends and then suddenly one day you hear nothing from them,  you'd be going, what is going on? And it's that real, and I still struggle with it today of, of the identity issues,  for sure. But. Yeah, I was certainly left by myself.

And those that I only seem to catch up with now are those that are like yourself. , and those that are out and have been through the same pain. Yeah, you know, 

Rosie: Yeah, you know, you know, and you support each other. And it's so true. Like I know on my  last day, like some people get a message, text message, it's silent radio silence.

And you know, probably that's  probably a reflection on me and my, what I wanted. Um, because I had enough of getting the check in the box phone calls every 28 days or whatever it is that they're supposed to do it. So I told them not to call anymore and just send me an email. Um, so that's probably a reflection on that.

But after, you know, you give yourself, , so many years to a job and you think, , on your last day you could,  thanks for coming. Thanks for something. Yeah, it's pretty rough. And I know myself, some people, they just don't know what to say and they don't know what to do and they don't want to make it worse.

And I think you get, even being on the other side of that, when other people have gone off, there's that.  Fear that you're gonna make the situation worse and possibly get in trouble for it.

Lindsay: or you are gonna catch it yourself 

Rosie: Or you'll catch it. Yeah. Because it's contagious. Yeah.  . Yeah. It's true though. Like, you know, and the, I remember being told, like, especially as a young constable working in the country, like, oh, don't go and see them in uniform.

Don't go and do this. Don't go and do that. You know, don't speak to them. Um, and. And now being on the flip side, like that's so rough, it's rough. And  yeah, I just, I think more can be done in that area. And  it's really important, I think, to check in on your mates.

Lindsay: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Rosie: Like I, you know, if I hear of someone that I've worked with, it's gone off and, you know, there's a lot, , I'll always send a message, , and just see how they're travelling.

I spoke to one bloke a few weeks ago who I've worked with,  and unfortunately they've gone off. And  after. I don't, I think it might've been 18 years in the job. I was the second person to send him a message to see how he was going. And I just thought that is so sad, like  such a long time in the job and only two people have checked in on him. 

Lindsay: Which is again, it's so hard because you've, yeah, you think because you wear the  same  blue, blue uniform, you're still all part of the one group. So therefore it's, you know, everyone's going to be okay with, and it, unfortunately it's still that shameful thing of when you do go off.  Um, so you're ashamed as it is, but then now you suddenly ashamed and you have no one that you knew from the past and you don't know who you are.

Rosie: That's right. 

Lindsay: Um, yeah, I remember still, yeah, my last day,  um, that I was with the organisation. Yeah.  I was pretty hurt. I've got a  very generic text message where it could have been,  you know, they've just scrubbed out the name Rosie and I wrote the name Lindsay. Yeah. Yeah. It could have been that. And I remember hearing others too, you know, they even got flowers and they'd get gifts from the association and,  and you're like, I don't understand what the boss even called a few of them.

Actually, funny story. One of the bosses called, it was a couple and they were both.  They were both quite unhealthy and they both left by chance, similar stage.  And the, the big boss actually called,  um, one of the partners and then said, Oh, by the, by the way, tell your other partner to, Oh, I said, congratulations on what you like.

Rosie: Jeez. 

Lindsay: There's just, it's exactly like you said, the, the exiting. I  mean, that's a whole thing. It's my thing of treat people like people, but that, you know, be tough on crime. That's great. Be strong where you need to be. Yeah. Thank you.  But treat people like people. Um, that's just,  things need to change.  

Rosie: In your mental wellness journey now, would you say  you're in a stage of growth?

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Rosie: Yeah. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty fortunate. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah, I would. I'm pretty happy that I am in the growth stage of PTSG. 

Rosie: That's something I'd not heard  before post traumatic growth.

Lindsay: Yeah. I had heard it through, , Dan Prong, he's a military, ,  ex military guy. , I'd heard it through him before, but then, you know, it was very positive in the way that he looked at it.  Uh, and the way that I. It was explained that you don't lose the post traumatic stress of it. 

Rosie: Yeah. 

Lindsay: The disorder  is the part that you replace with growth.

That means that yes, you will still have  signs of PTS,  but you can now step forward and do things that challenge you that are a bit harder, uh, or may have made me feel more uncomfortable  back then. So yes, I'm certainly in that, in that way. 

Rosie: Yeah. It feels good. Right. 

Lindsay: It feels really nice. , yeah. And also to go, Oh great.

Like shoulders back. Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing, I'm doing well. 

Rosie: So what are you doing now? 

Lindsay: Um, I look, I'm still recovering and I'm still trying to find my journey. , as to where it is, I managed to get on a couple of ambassador roles.  I've just started trying to seek what was really out there really. So I'm an ambassador for the Australian New Zealand Mental Health Association.

So basically what that means is that I'm just trying to be Australia. Someone that talks well of the organisation, but tries to encourage people and those that have the ability to make change within their  group to be part of the organisation because they'll run a bunch of conferences from HR to frontline to DV to child aboriginal health.

There's so many things that they do. This organisation does and they'll hold conferences and webinars, that type of stuff. They'll hold So many things. So it's about trying to encourage others to go and just put the word out there, , for others too,  which is great. And I went to my first conference last year,  in the Gold Coast and it was a HR one.

And I remember turning up at this thing and I was, I was so out of my depth to the point where even in the hotel I rocked up and I'm in my best Mid North Coast gear. I'm in my thongs, shorts and singlet.  And even the look I got from the receptionist at the hotel was like, Oh, we don't take your kind. And I was like, uh, I think I need to get changed. 

So I'm going to put a shirt on. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was great because it was so uncomfortable for me.  You know, this is a corporate world. This was,  I didn't know anyone. I'd met some people online, other ambassadors, but I didn't know anyone. But it was great for me in the way of, I really had to put my way out there.

And because it was workplace HR,  I found it great in the way of,  on day one, there was a bunch of panel, panelists that were sitting in this conference and they were from some organisations, Commonwealth Bank, Australia Post, Woolworths, Virgin, , and someone else.  Anyway, they have it written in their policy  that they are to care for the wellbeing of their employees.

Yeah. Like it is a thing that they do. And I remember going, what is this? Like I've never heard of a group or an organisation, let alone that big, and they generally have it written in their charter, in their organisation charter that they have to look after it. And I was like, wow, it was great for me to see, , especially being so hurt as well.

And I did love the wellbeing space within the organisation , the policing organisation as far as a peer support officer, but it was great to see on the way of like, look at these people caring. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The big bad world that I had lived in . doesn't have to be the big bad world that there's some other great groups out there, , and some beautiful people too.

So  yeah, that was one of the roles I got. And then by chance I've got on LinkedIn, , which is great cause there's a really good,  course that I recommend people.  Getting contact with it's called beyond the badge. , and that is about learning the skills that we have, but we didn't know we had, , to then be able to give that then on the future career that we want to develop or even just understanding the skills that we even had,  , because we didn't know we had, but just been able to explain that to ourselves.

So,, I then got onto someone else contacted me  , organisation called Resolute Ready, and they're basically  their aim is to be a website where you go for one stop  all your problems with all the organisations that you could need from health issues, psychologists, finance people,  anyone that you would need in the first response military. 

That when you identify that you or a family member,  that the family member identifies that the person is struggling, you can just go into one website, Resolute Ready, and it's just got a bunch of stuff that you can just go through and you can contact them.  I'll put that in the show notes. Yeah, it's just, it's a, Lydia, the lady down South Australia, she's a beautiful, passionate lady. 

She's a hundred miles an hour who generally cares, but that's what they're there for. So my role is just within the New South Wales,, region of just, again, trying to put it out there and trying to find organisations that would like to put their, , their own organisations onto Resolute Ready. So that it's that one stop, one call, super accessible, super accessible. 

Rosie: Because, you know, as you've been aware you just don't, sometimes you don't know who,  you know, is out there that can help.

Lindsay: Yeah. Um, and that's certainly what I learned through some good friends that were out as well. Like, okay, this is your next step. This is your next step. Yeah. It's good. It's nice to have a mentor that sort of, uh, walk that little path of discharge before you.

Rosie: Because I know when I left it was, well, I was off for a little while, but when I discharged, like I didn't,  there wasn't, there wasn't really anything to be honest. Back in 2019. Yeah. , when I discharged that I. I didn't know where to go and I didn't know what to do. So I find it so amazing that people like Resolute Ready and, , the girls emerge and see the things that they're doing, , to support first responders is I find really amazing.And yeah, people need to go and have a look at what they've got because it's.a wealth 

Lindsay: That's a thing. There are so many  people in organisations that actually want to help.  And I think when you are so dark in your organisation, as far as your own health and thinking that it's the only people that care, that's not true.

Hey, there are so many beautiful people, even the work that you're doing now, like it's for the betterment of people that it. still want to stay in or all the health when they want to get out. But yeah, there are so many organisations. It's great. 

Rosie: Yeah, that's so good.  I know that you have a conference coming up in March on the Gold Coast.

Lindsay: Yeah, I do speaking at yes, I am excited. Um, yeah, I am excited. You know, I laugh because it's It's the last day. It's when the, uh, the vacuum cleaners coming out and type stuff, so everyone's ready to leave. But yeah, I'm excited  in the way of, I'm just going to go there and,   typically me, I haven't written anything even though it's a month away, but I already know what I'll speak about.

It was just about my journey and then how we could have done things better for the individual of the organisation  and just bring up scenarios based on a peer support officer on how things could have been done. And the word flexibility for rostering and caring of people just.  It just needs to be on the forefront of any first response organisation that when you identify officer A  who needs some help, take them off the road,  you know, and there's no issues with first response then.

So the minimum staffing requirements, there's nothing there, you know, that would help everyone. Yeah. That would help the individual. It would help the bosses who  that's what they care, seem to care about more so.  About just making sure that that is met but you know, a flexible rostering system in my eyes is just, it's like a, a second rostering system, you know, what hospitals and nurses take on is that you can just call up Constable Joe Blow, who's on a casual roster system, is on a part time agreement, whatever it may be, but having that flexibility so that  Constable Joe, who's not in a good way  and wants to be still in the organisation, but needs to get his health back. 

Rosie: There is no  guilt or shame. 

Lindsay: None of that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, any of those things, um, and just even knowing, Oh, look, it's great. They care for me. , so therefore I can get myself healthy, healthier, I should say.  You feel okay about taking the time  and not feeling bad about it. Ashamed. 

Rosie: Yeah. So much shame.

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a horrible thing. , but yeah.  And I get back to this conference in the HR conference, there was a, I can't remember the presentation, but it was a fantastic presentation. And all they had was on one slide,  it was a circle. And if anyone, I can't remember what it is. It's a beautiful slide, but it's got human emotions and it's just a circle and it's got every single human emotion in it. 

And it's great in the way of going, hang on. We, all of us have all those emotions. We shouldn't just be dictated to the ones that are just in the red and blue, which normally you're sad and angry ones.  Um, especially that just what seems to happen within the first response world. You're allowed to have these other ones because you're human. 

Yeah. It's okay to feel sad and angry. And I know when I did leave, I certainly say that I only had the three emotions of nothing  angry, um, or ridiculously over the top happy.  Do you know what I mean, like just mucking around too much and then I'd go to flat or then I'd be angry  rather than going, mate, like this, this, it's okay to have a hundred  and let's be human and just realise that these people that are first responders,  they're human too.

So it's okay to have all those things.  Yeah.  I'm pretty sure I just went 100 percent off topic of what we are speaking about.  Yeah. 

Rosie: Well, I know that you're speaking at the First Responder Mental Health Conference  in March on the Gold Coast. I'm going, I'm excited to see what you have to say. 

Lindsay: We're going to be a lot of booing and cheering.If I hear you slap your hand under your forehead, like that noise, I'll be like, oh, yeah.    But yeah, look,  I hope it's good in the way of  that.

There are people there  that want to make a difference.  

Rosie: I think you're right. , I think the people that hopefully go there from the organisation.  Yeah. To hearing what people from the organisation that have left have to say about how they're doing things. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And there's what I like about, you know, it's not just people that have left.

It's people that do a lot of research and it's not research based that it's boring. It's actually research based of like first responders who go through this, they require this.  It's properly based or it's. Beautiful psychologists or psychiatrists that have turned up and gone, Hey, look, I've worked with these people for so long.

Organisation, please do this. Yeah. You know, this is coming from my, my vast experience. Um, and it's great because even in my ambassador role, I've reached out to a bunch of politicians, which again, I never would have done in the organisation before. Like I've, I have two politicians turning up because they feel that they want to make a difference too and that they want to see too how that they can make a change.

So  yeah, for anyone that is so stuck within that mind of like no one cares, it's so not true and that's what I'm loving about.  Now being out of, there are so many people that generally want to care. Yeah, there really is. And it is, like I said before, like when you're in that dark space, , it doesn't feel like there's anyone.

Rosie: No. And I think because I know  you've been in the organisation for however long you've been there and you think that they're the only people.that will care Yeah. Um, you might not say that other people do, but it's so true. Like there are so many people out there willing to help,  um, so many resources available. Yeah. So on that, what advice do you have for people? Anyone doesn't have to be first responders, but anyone that wants to seek help for their mental health issues, like how, how can you overcome the hesitation? 

Lindsay: Um, I always described those that were so low that were suicidal or.  So upset and depressed is, is that they're stuck in the bottom of a twirling tornado.

They are literally with inside of it and everyone else's outside of it  to put your hand out  and seek that help. It is such a huge and amazing step for you. It is generally, yeah, it's hard because you got to push through all that wind and fight everything.  But the headspace that you're in is not a healthy headspace. 

And it's okay because again, you're human. You have this whole wheel of emotions and it shouldn't be a shameful thing. It's not a shameful thing. You know, a psychologist once said to me, And I couldn't understand this analogy at first, you're on an aeroplane.  That was me doing the aeroplane noise for the start.

You're on an aeroplane and then suddenly the breathing mask dropped down and he said to me, whose mask are you going to put on? I said, well, I'm going to put the families on first.  And he goes, nah, wrong answer. Try again. So I'll put the wife and families on first. I don't understand. He goes, no mate, like you need to put on your own mask first  so that you can look after others. 

And it was just, you know, that was years ago that he told me this and it's still stuck with me to this day. Like you need to look after yourself so that you can still help others. And there are so many people that want to help.  Yeah, you're sometimes you're stuck in this tornado, but just to put your hand out there, it's a please must do because I know what, and you'll say the same as well.

I never turned up to a. Sorry to get dark, but I never turned up to the suicide where the family said, Oh God, I'm so glad.  It was always the case of, I wish I could've. I wish I would've known. Yeah. I wish I'd, I wish I'd done this. I wish I'd done it. And yes, you are so  down and horrible and you think that the world is against you, but just, it's okay to, you're human.

Which is the great thing. You're human. So we have so many emotions and everyone goes through up and down and guess what? We're not on Instagram, social media, everything is fantastic and happy and look at the music I can dance to. Like that's, that's the BS of life. Yeah. That's not the real world. Yeah. So it's okay to go, you know what? 

I'm not okay. And I am going to get help. And it doesn't matter what that is. It could literally be going, you know what? I'm not okay. So I'm going to go into one of these websites that people have described about. Or I'm going to go start getting onto your website and trying to do something for myself and book a program.

Or guess what? I'm just going to go drive down to a local walking place and take myself for a walk because I need that headspace to get out. That might be your first step. Your first step doesn't have to be with your doctor. Yeah, that's a great idea because you'll get on a good plan hopefully if you've got a great doctor,  but it's also staying in contact with people because when you're down the bottom of that tornado and you've  pushed everyone out, that's not healthy.

And remember that's part of your health. I think that's the main thing too. So it's okay to go get help, especially as a bloke, , as well, don't get yourself stigmatised that I've got to be tough.  , cause there's no real version of that when your health is not well. 

Rosie:  I agree. Like  with men, especially, like I try and speak to men a lot because I know like  statistically, I'm sure women are more likely to talk about what's going on with them. 

And I really do feel like men still have that,  ,  not guilt, but maybe the stigma attached to it. And  again, there's so many people doing great things for men in the mental health space as well. , and I just, yeah, I really feel like everyone should feel comfortable enough to say, Hey, I'm having a rough time.

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. Like I even got a message on LinkedIn off a guy.  Today. And his whole purpose is to help single dads going through a horrible time. Yeah. You know, that's what I mean. There are just so many caring people out there.  And they're, you know, our old version used to be help.

That's why we joined the organisation to help.  Guess what? There's other people that want to help too. Yes, they don't wear a uniform, but they still want to help. Yeah. And it's, it's,  It's okay to accept it. It doesn't mean anything. And you'll actually, eventually  you'll look on the other side and you're like, wow, I now, I now wear the badge of PTSG which is a nice thing.

Rosie: How good. Yeah. Yeah. I,  I know myself like feeling.  That I'm in a state of growth and it's such a journey, but, um,  it's so good. It's so nice. And I guess that's where the idea for Triumph Beyond Trauma came from, because when you're in the thick of it, sometimes you can't see that you're ever going to get there.

And I know I certainly didn't, , and it is a journey, but it's achievable for everyone. I really believe that. So thank you so much for coming. 

Lindsay: Thank you for having me . 

Rosie: Is there anything else you want to add today? 

Lindsay: Uh, , just be kind to yourself. Yeah. That's probably the main thing.  

Rosie: Yeah, I agree. Thanks, Lindsay. 

Lindsay: Thanks, Rosie. 

 Outro:  I hope you've enjoyed today's episode, if you have make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while you're there take a moment to leave us a review, I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts.  Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your consistent and positive efforts.  Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you think. Have the best week.