Rosie Skene:

Hello,
and welcome to episode 30 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. This is the last episode
for season three, and I'm so excited to bring this one to you. I'll be taking a
break for a few weeks and episode one of season four will drop on November 5.
It is going to be a ripper for sure. I have one of my most favorite female
police officers and leaders on to chat about her time in policing and the
strike forces that she led to get some incredible results and international
awards and recognition.

To get notified when that's released, pause this episode, hit
follow, and then come back. And that way, you'll get all the new episodes.
Today, I'm joined by one of the most decorated police officers in Queensland's
history. Keith Banks. Keith's career in law enforcement spanned over two
decades, starting back in 1975 and involved everything from mobile patrols,
undercover operations, investigations, and tactical response.

His bravery in service earned him multiple awards, including
the Bravery Medal and two Queensland Police Valour Awards for Courage Under
Fire, one of which he received after the infamous MLC siege in 1993. Keith's
story didn't end with his police career, he moved into the corporate landscape
and after 24 years was diagnosed with PTSD, an empowering diagnosis which has
led Keith to speaking out about his incredible journey.

Keith is a best selling author sharing his experiences in
Drugs, Guns and Lies and Gun to the Head, while also advocating for mental
health and peer support. These are two of my most favorite books and he has a
third on the way, which I'm so excited about. I feel so blessed to have been
able to sit down with Keith to talk about his phenomenal life.

I love this episode and I really think that you will too.

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores
journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher
and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to
three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I
understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder
and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Keith, Banks thank you so much for joining me on the podcast
today. I'm thrilled to have you here. I've read both your books and I love them
so much and we're definitely gonna, discuss those later on.

Yeah. But for those people that don't know who you are and
where you're from, can you explain how you came to be in the Queensland Police
?

Keith Banks:

Yeah,
sure. So thanks for having me on firstly Rosie. Um, you know, I've been looking
forward to this as well. Um, and, uh, and it's always kind of flattering to
have such a lovely introduction.

So thank you. Um, yeah, I grew up in, in Western Queensland. ,
my mother remarried when I was six years old. , not a very pleasant person. Um,
you know, someone who had a real problem with alcohol, domestic violence, et
cetera, which was pretty common, sadly, in that in that era. , we moved around
from town to town in Queensland where work was.

He was an unskilled labourer. So, I think, I really lost count.
In the first two years of schooling, maybe eight to ten different schools. ,
Including a stint in Alice Springs. Um, so, grew up in that environment. , And,
, and probably from a reasonably early age, maybe 8 or 9, , I wanted to do
something that would protect people from bullies.

I was bullied quite badly. , I had the issues at home where I
was a kid that was never subjected to any sexual abuse, but certainly physical
and mental and emotional abuse on a daily basis. So, you know, the , the quote
from Nietzsche is, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And that's
certainly true for developing resilience, I think, in hindsight.

You know, I spent most of my childhood walking and learning how
to avoid. Uh, doing something that would incur his wrong. So, you know, again,
I look at that from a positive perspective that taught me resilience, um, that
came in handy later in life. So, I ended up, , or we ended up living in
Charters Towers, which is a town about 120 Ks west of Townsville in Queensland.

Um, at that time, , I think I was in, I was in years 11, , at
school. So, we had a system in those days called the Army Cadets. I know the
Army Cadets still exist now, but, , but I joined the Cadets in year 8 when we
were in Cairns. And in those days, the Cadets were probably really regarded as
a precursor to military service.

So, you were taught, Not just drill, you were taught, , map
reading, navigation, weapons handling, that's where I learned to shoot. Um, how
to, how to really give lessons and provide leadership even at a very early age.
And I fell in love with it. You know, my, my future was going to be the, the
ADF for sure. And you know, and my, my, um, counsellors over the years and a
certain amount of introspection have helped me understand that I was simply
looking for good positive male role models.

You know, it doesn't, doesn't take a genius to work out why I
guess. Um, but that was my, that was my path. You know, I was focused on
applying for Duntroon, which is now the Royal Military College. , I was
academically bright. I was blessed with the ability. , to do well at school,
and I could see that was my pathway out of a, , a pretty challenging
environment.

You know, we, we were from a lower socioeconomic strata, so
money was always a problem. You know, the issues at home were always a problem,
etc. But, you know, I had a, I had a path. Um, around year 10, we had a visit
from a police recruiter. And at that stage, you know, I was really struggling
with the home environment.

And I thought, yeah, I've only got two years to put up with it,
then I can escape. When the police recruiter turned up, it really hit me, um,
that that was an opportunity for two things. One was to get out of that
childhood environment because it was cadet system. , and you could apply and do
years 10, sorry, wrong, years 11 and 12 at the police academy with another 12
months on top as a paid cadet and so on.

, I thought about it. And then I, , really thought about what
being a cop would involve, and I could see that that. would give me more of an
opportunity to take an active part in literally helping people, , and I think
most cops join for that reason. And, , and it sounds cliched and it sounds, I
don't know what charges stuff, but, , even at that tender age at 16, I really
wanted to do something.

to make the world a better place. So I thought about it and
then I just realized I couldn't stay in that domestic situation for another
year. That probably would have taken me to a level where I may have broken. So
I applied for the police cadet system. My mom, who was, who I loved to death. ,
but like a lot of women in those, in that era was pretty powerless to escape.

, she signed the authority, et cetera. , and paid a price for
that later because my stepfather hated cops.

And, , yeah, there's a whole, there's a whole rapid
conversation around that. But, , so I applied and I was successful. , and then
I left home the year I turned 17 to travel to Brisbane. , so that was 1975.

And, , I think I turned, yeah, I turned 17 that year. So May,
May of that year. Anyway, , hit the Academy at the tender age of 16 and a half
or so. And then had, , a 12 month tertiary, I'm sorry, wrong, a 12 month, ,
grade 12 year, and then followed by a 12 month cadet system. But the cadet
system in those days , was, , A combination of, I guess, study and policing.

So, unlike the academy of now, it was, uh, very, very focused
on discipline. There was all the yelling and screaming and cleaning toilets
with toothbrushes and, you know, running around and over with a 303 rifle above
your head as punishment. All of that stuff.

Rosie Skene:

So it's
a little bit more like a military type of situation back then.

Keith Banks:

Yeah, it
was, it was, it was probably what, probably similar to what the, , ADF military
academy would have been, but instead of being tertiary study, it was a year 12
study.

So

we, we did, uh, we did normal year 12 courses, but we also did
police studies as well. So, you know, If you picture it, you're up at six
o'clock in the morning, your bed had to be made in a certain way, you had to be
dressed in your uniform, present for breakfast, then parade, room inspections,
and then sit down in a class and do year 12 subjects.

So it was quite an interesting, , experience. I loved it. I
loved it because I was in a structured environment. , I had my own room, I was
paid, you know, and, and I was living somewhere where, , I didn't have to
really walk on eggshells like I had to. So again, I guess it comes back to the
Nietzsche principle.

, it creates resilience. There were other young kids in there
who hated it. And I thrived on it. So I did two years of that. And then in
those days, we had to be 19 to be sworn. I'm not sure what it was like in New
South Wales. I think in Victoria was 18 and a half. Either way, way too young,
I think.

Rosie Skene:

Very
young, yeah.

Keith Banks:

So yeah,
graduated from the academy, had to wait five months, and then I was sworn in as
a 19 year old cop.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's so young, but , obviously you're ready for it. , and having that
training for a couple of years, , under your belt, I can imagine you were just
chewing at the bit after that five months had ended to go and actually perform
the job that you've been training for for a couple of years.

Keith Banks:

Yeah,
yeah, I wanted to be a cop. I wanted to be a super cop, and in that young,
yeah, you know, I look back and go, man, how naive I was and how naive we all
were, I guess. But in that blush of youth, you know, I wanted to be someone
who'd change the world and, you know, do all the really exciting, cool stuff
and lock up bad guys.

And, um, and the first station I went to, I was actually a
glorified lollipop guy for, for about two months. It was about, you know, in
one of those ironies of life, it was one of the most boring stations you could
be put at. It was inner city, Brisbane, Barden, sleepiest suburb in the world,
I reckon.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Wow.

Very, , early on in your career, you joined the mobile patrols,
um, which is a proactive unit, wasn't it?

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
Mobiles was the best uniform station I ever worked in. It was, it was modelled.
So we, we had some issues in Queensland, as I'm sure you're aware, and I'm
sure, , older listeners would be aware of, you know, the, the level of
corruption in Queensland was, was not extreme, but it was focused and
controlled by very powerful people.

That was one thing. New South Wales had its fair share of
issues as well, , but we had, we had a, uh, a culture of, dare I say it, a lot
of, uh, poorly educated senior people who really didn't understand, I suppose,
the nuances of policing as much as they should or as much as is understood now.
So, so a police commissioner was appointed, Ray Wittrod, who was touted as a
reformist commissioner.

He was hated because people hate change, particularly if it
challenges the way we've done things around here, . , but he introduced a, a
concept called patrols based on the Los Angeles PD model. So I'll Going to one
centralized area, working with a permanent partner, patrolling a permanent
sector.

, we didn't respond to fires or, sorry, when I say respond, we
didn't have to do paperwork around house fires or, you know, that normal stuff.
We didn't have to serve summonses. We didn't have to execute warrants of
commitment. All of that general stuff that is done in a normal general duty
suburban police station.

We

were on the road. responding to high risk jobs, responding to
urgent jobs, and taking at the same time, you know, burglary complaints, etc.
But our, our, um, mission was get on the road, look at suspicious behaviour,
pull cars over, you know, interrogate people, and pretty much be a very, very,
used to be called aggressive patrolling, , focus of policing.

Then I think The public didn't like that, so it changed to, uh,
Assertive Patrolling or something. Um, but in essence, it was, you know, log on
with your mate, um, male or female, sign on as quickly as you could, book on
the air as quickly as you could, and get out there and go, right, we've got
seven and a half hours to go and lock up bad guys and have a lot of fun.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
one, , part of your book, you say, and I don't want to ruin the book for people
that haven't read it because they absolutely should, both of them, they're
fantastic. But there was a tradition in the mobile patrols that you weren't
aware of until you were in it. Would you like to talk about that a little bit?

Keith Banks:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

it made
me laugh. It really

Keith Banks:

did. And
that's the thing about cops, you know, idle hands are the devil's tool.

Absolutely. So,

you know, and, and if you think about it, we're all young,
young kids, we're in our early twenties, late twenties. So the tradition was on
night work or on an afternoon shift, depending on what took your fancy.

Um, you'd contact someone in police operations and an
operations centre was giving out all the jobs. So you'd contact them and go,
look, it's our turn tonight. Other cars would cover for us. And I thought, what
the hell is this all about? And essentially it was. To see who could drive the
furthest out of their division and back again in one shift.

So, so your mates had covered all the jobs that came in for you
and you'd be off, you know. There, we got as far as, we drove over the border
the first time I did it and ended up in Chinderah, which is well over the
border.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Into

Keith Banks:

New
South Wales. Took a quick photo to prove that we'd been there and raced back.

And, , and we had, we had cars that, , went out West. We had
cars that got further than we did. It just depended how, um, much of a risk
taker you were, I guess. And there was no prize. It was just bragging rights.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Keith Banks:

And, and
it was an open secret. All the bosses knew what we were up to, but no one was
ever formally counselled over it.

It was essentially, the message was, don't step up, you crash
the car, you're on your own.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

But have
fun anyway, you know, so, and, and people, young cops who'd listen to this
these days would go, Oh my God, we've got GPS tracking, we've got all of this
stuff. There was none of that in those days. You just, just went off and out of
radio contact and did what you did.

And, and as I've written in the book, a few weeks after I've
been introduced to this, I saw a uniformed New South Wales car cruising down
Queen street in Brisbane and thought, aha,

I wonder where that's from.

I know what you guys are up to. So, you know, you've got to
have fun.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
you do. And that's what I really like about.

I mean, it's well before my time, but those days, even though
they're probably a lot more dangerous because of the resources and, um, a lot
of systems probably were in their infancy. , but also like a lot of fun. A lot
of shenanigans.

Keith Banks:

Yeah, a
lot of shenanigans. And we had nowhere near the resources that modern police
do.

And, , I, I look at the way that cops are kitted out now and
go, damn, I wish I had some of that stuff in my day. Um, , there's, there's a
pro and a con. Yeah. , we couldn't be tracked. It's like, um, I used to joke
about it and say, it's like a world war one fighter pilot, you know, once their
wheels were off the ground, there was no radio transmission.

They just did what they thought they had to do. It was sort of
like, we were no mobile phones, no pages,

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

You did
your thing.

Rosie Skene:

That's
wild, isn't it?

Keith Banks:

Yeah, it
was. Yeah. It was fun.

So after your time in
mobiles, Undercover work caught your eye. How did that come about for you?

Keith Banks:

I, I didn't know there was an undercover area, you know.

We weren't really told a lot about other aspects of policing in
our training. And I'm sure it happens now where people are aware of it. But
yeah, I was, , very short story. I was on a job in mobiles one night. There was
a shots fired call, any unit. Call in the centre of the city, raced around
there and it had been a drug squad takeout.

Um, one of the detectives fired a round at the front tire of a
car, the baddies or the dealer's car when they were trying to escape. And in
those days, again, you know, shots were fired a lot more often without a lot of
reporting than they are now. Um, so we got there, raced around and went, Oh,
this is interesting.

And there was a, uh, a long haired guy, grubby looking guy.
Head down past his shoulders, handcuffed, sitting against a car. One of the
detectives said, throw the undercover in the back of your car and take them
back to C. I. B. headquarters and make them look good. And I thought, an
undercover? Wow. Cool. This looks exciting.

So, and again, you know, that fitted in with my, , my need to
do something different. And this is going to sound a bit crazy, but I'd been
heavily influenced by the book Serpico, which was about an undercover narcotics
cop in New York City. True story. , who spoke out against corruption and, uh,
and challenged the status quo, you know, and part of his challenge of the
status quo was he was an undercover cop, so he didn't dress like a cop.

But a lot of them did and, , A lot of the, sorry, a lot of the
undercovers dressed still like, yeah, a lot of, a

lot of plain clothes, New York city cops, they had, you know,
the, the pants and the shirt and maybe a hat that wasn't, you know, a hat or
something, but yeah, they didn't really take it on board. It was a very
specific idea.

Yeah. And , and I looked at that and thought, wow, if ever I
could do that, that'd be the best thing in the world. Because again, I was 22,
I think. No, I hadn't even turned 22 yet. And I looked at that and thought,
wow, I could dress the way I wanted. I could grow my hair. I could look as much
unlike a cop as I could and be in a position to fool people and do something
about, , the heroin trade.

So it all tick boxes for me, , and I'd be lying if I didn't say
that part of the. Uh, the perceived glamour of, , dressing the way you wanted
to, throwing an earring in that we weren't allowed to do, all of that stuff.
Um, I'd be lying if I said that wasn't attractive, because it was. So I applied
for it.

I was a baby faced little guy. I didn't look like a cop anyway.
And, , and like a lot of other undercovers in the old days of the 80s, they
grabbed me up because no one had ever accused me of being a cop anyway. So, you
know, most of us looked like that. We were just young. not typical six foot
two, you know, um, big dudes.

So yeah, got accepted. , and then I just started doing stuff
that completely changed my lifestyle. You know, I, um, there was no training
course. We were simply, you look good enough, start and if you take some weeks
off, start and then, um, we'll pay you up with someone for a while and then
you're on your own.

So, you know, here I was, I'd been socialized into. Into
talking cop talk and , walking cop walk, and even things as simple as knocking
on a door. Cops knock on a door quite loudly. Absolutely. No one else does. No,
I still do

Rosie Skene:

it. , ,
.

Keith Banks:

Because,
because it, and it's even like walking into a room, you know, you scope
everything out.

I, I still look for exits and I still look at everyone in the
room, whether it be in a pub or a restaurant or whatever. But you have to lose
all of that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

And, and
the only way. In those days, you could lose that is have someone say, what are
you looking at? You're a bit sus, you know, um, you knocked on my door.

I thought it was the cops. Whereas now training is completely
different. And the way in which undercovers work is completely different. We
won't discuss that. , so we don't want to give any methodology away at all. But
in those days, it was really just get out there and do your thing. Um, you
know, often we were paired with an informer and the informer Some of them
worked specifically for reward money for setting up drug dealers to introduce
us to vouch for us.

We'd buy the drugs, we'd keep them in chain of custody, all
that stuff. And then people would be charged with supply or traffic, depending
on the amounts they sold to us. Um, there were a couple who did that for
rewards. There was one particular informer who hated drug dealers, even though
he looked like he'd walked out of the central casting for the Hells Angels.

Um, but he genuinely hated drug dealers. But I also worked with
informers who were clearly just setting up their opposition. Yeah. You know, so
shaking hands with the devil, you better have a long spoon, you know. Um, and,
and it's just, I remember working with these guys and they'd tell them, they'd
tell other dealers they'd known me for years.

And, uh, and I just looked at it and thought, wow, I know
exactly what you're up to because you'll be selling as much smack as I'm for
sure. And, you know, the way that Policing was in the eighties, you know, A lot
of it was about numbers, a lot of it was about figures, and a lot of it was
about publicity. So, you know, if you had a big bust that was on the front page
of the paper, that stood you in good stead for the next promotion, or, um,
policing budget increases for drug enforcement, etc.

You know, I'm not comfortable that we ever targeted the right
people. Um, but that was totally out of my, my hands. I was simply a young
undercover guy who did what he was told.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think much has changed there, though, has it, with the, you know,
you get some good arrests and you get some newspaper coverage.

Well,

Keith Banks:

yeah,
yeah, yeah. I could talk about that for ages. I

Rosie Skene:

know, .
Um, so there's a lot of deception and secrecy. In undercover work, it's the
nature of that job. How did that aspect of the job affect your ability to have
relationships and connections with other people outside of that work?

Keith Banks:

Um, to,
again, this is going to sound a little sociopathic, but I thrived on the whole
deception and lying. Can

Rosie Skene:

I ask a
question before you keep going? Do you think it's because, , you said you were
quite intelligent. Do you think it is because you have a high intelligence,
it's all a little bit of a game?

Um,

Keith Banks:

yeah,

Rosie Skene:

I don't
know. I don't know if I'm speaking out of school, but, you know, I think, um,
Yeah, I have I have a thought about that.

Keith Banks:

I've
often thought about this actually Rosie, you know, it's um, I don't regard
myself as a sociopath, but certainly there must have been parts of my
personality that, that are, because with a couple of exceptions, um, you know,
I, I quite thrived on lying to heroin dealers, you know, I thought that they
were trading in something that was just One of the most horrible things in the
world until meth came along, um, but, you know, heroin was killing people.

So I thrived on lying and playing a role, um, but there were
other people that you form relationships with who were dealing a lot of weed.
And I changed my attitudes about cannabis pretty quickly. You know, I believed
it was an evil scourge and now I'd legalize it tomorrow. Um, so I, I was in a
position where I had to.

by, oh, you know, reasonably small amounts of cannabis from
people. And I hated that my relationship with them was pretty good.

Rosie Skene:

You
know,

Keith Banks:

you
still have to, it's hard to explain. You still have to keep a certain part of
yourself hidden, but you can allow other parts of your personality to come out.
And I'm a pretty gregarious person, you know, and I quite like spending time
with some of these these guys and girls that I was buying cannabis from because
to me, they were, Much more genuine and open and fun than a lot of the cops
that I was dealing with.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Keith Banks:

Because,
you know, the whole corruption thing was, and I've written about that very
openly. Um, not everyone was corrupt. The majority of people I worked with were
great, but there was enough corruption there to be on your guard. , And, and
thank you for saying that the intelligence thing, you know, I was just blessed
I was academic, but, um, you know, um, it, it became a game.

And it's, you know, the rush was amazing. It's so a great
friend of mine, Chuck has, um, and he and I featured in a documentary on
channel nine a little while ago, , Australian crime stories for anybody who
might want to watch it. , and Chuck and I talk about this a lot. And he said,
the best way to describe undercover is think about.

The most frightening thing you've ever done in your life,
right? Whether it's jumped out of a plane, off the edge of a building,
whatever, whatever it is, the most frightening thing you've ever done in your
life. Now do it three times a week for two years. That's what undercover is.
And, and the rush you get from that is indescribable, you know, and, and for a
lot of us, the fear was incredibly addictive because it brought with it
adrenaline and then it brought with it.

playing the games and then it brought with it, , the ability to
do stuff that was completely outside the rules. Because it's important to
understand that in those days, we had no controllers. We were just let loose
with a bag full of money, access to guns, smoked a truckload of dope, drank
like fish without any Concern about consequence.

Yeah, because we knew full well as some of us, you know, a
couple of the guys got arrested and thrown in the watch house. We had false
identities. We just write it out and, and, you know, jump bail the next day and
everything would be fine. Um, so that sounds great. But with that, the on flow
consequences were, you know, a complete change in attitude about, Who we were
and, and the difficulty of undercover in those days, and probably still is, is
about remembering your moral compass, remembering why you're doing it,
remembering who you actually are.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

That
that's the big challenge.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And that's, , one of my next questions actually is, , Because it does put you
in morally compromising situations. , and I know that you had a couple, , that
you've documented in your book. One of them, I don't, I don't know if it was
too compromising. Like you had a gun pointed to you if you didn't, uh, do a
couple of lines.

And I think that decision is pretty easy to make. Um, okay.

Keith Banks:

Okay.

Rosie Skene:

I'll do
that. Yep.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
Yeah. If you're going to shoot me, if I don't do lines of speed with you, let
me think about it. Okay.

Rosie Skene:

Yep.
Rack him up. Um, but another one that you talked about and I, uh, um, I'm sure
you've thought about a lot is Shane. He had a job on the Gold Coast.

Um, and he was someone that was involved in that circle and he
was a bit younger than you thought he was. And you watched him take his first,
, hit of heroin. You've spoken about that a bit and it's obviously in the book.
, and I know that it's rattled you. I also listened to a podcast episode with
Adam Blum uh, where it came up and, and he suggested, , That in a later job
that you had that we'll hopefully talk about later, uh, where you've saved a
life as well.

So ultimately Shane passed away. Um, how do you, how did you at
the time, and I don't, I'm not sure that you did. How did you reconcile, , with
your ethics, , and, and your morals, like your own personal morals? Um, in
doing those jobs and having those experiences and then how, how did you stay
grounded and how did you remember who you actually were at that time?

Keith Banks:

Because
that's a great question. Um, yeah, it, I don't know that I ever did reconcile
that

about, you know, him dying of

an ID years later, um, I'm, I'm learning now about moral
injury. I, you know, I'm, um, so I'll backtrack slightly. But part of my. One
of my passions now is discussing mental health and helping people with PTSD
given that, you know, I'm on the,

Rosie Skene:

hmm,

Keith Banks:

pretty
much the other side of mind.

But I've learned about moral injury, and um, moral injury is
not yet a formal diagnosis, but, you know, it's, um, it's very real. And I
struggled with moral injury. I know now for years over Shane's eventual OD, you
know, four years later, I've often wondered what I should have done, what I
could have done. And the reason or the way that I've reconciled it is I've put
myself back in that situation and there's nothing I could have done without
blowing an entire operation.

Absolutely.

And it's one of those,

uh,

one of those challenges of life is you need to make decisions
based on the best information you have at the time. And when that incident
happened, I was only 23 years old.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

You
know, so I looked at my daughters, you baby, as I were growing up, I was a
baby. Yeah. And I remember looking at both of them when they were 23 thinking
shit, you know, I was your age when I was in that world.

Um, as best I can, that's how I've reconciled it. You know, I,
we all have regrets and, and you know, had I interfered with what happened that
night and I go into detail than the book, as you said. Yeah. Um, I would've
blown an entire operation. And, and I can't think of any other way, you know,
that I could have handled it.

Um, and it's funny, yeah, and, uh, the MLC Siege that we may
talk about later, you

Rosie Skene:

know,

Keith Banks:

saving a
life probably started to turn my darkness and my recriminations around, I
think.

And that's the nature of policing, isn't it? Everything's
unpredictable.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
absolutely. And I think, um, that's the thrill of it though, isn't it?

Well, for me, it was absolutely at the start. And then at the
end of it, it was like, not so much anymore. Like I can't deal with the unknown
anymore. Yeah, yeah. It's one of the things that tipped me over, but, um,
that's, that's one of the joys of it is, is you never know what you're going to
get. And especially I can imagine in, you know, uh, deep undercover work.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Every
day is that. Every single day is that. Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

And it
was, it was a thrill, you know, and, and I won't hide the fact that it was a
rush.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

You
know, um, and, and most of us would be in between operations hanging out for
the next one because, you know, it's, it's exciting to get in there and live
that life again and lie and, um, deceive and betray.

The other problem with undercover for me. And it's pretty much
every UC I've spoken with feels sort of the same, is that you set out meeting
someone, forming a relationship with them, knowing full well that you're going
to betray them. And you're going to do your best

Rosie Skene:

to do
it. Yeah. That's what you're doing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
You know, I've actually, and in those days we had what were called
confrontations. So at the end of every operation, our cover was blown. All the
drug dealers were told who we were, which, um, and I remember having more than
one confrontation, you know, where I formed a relationship and, and heroin
dealers predominantly, I used to buy a lot of smack when I got really good at
my trade.

Um,

some of them, you know,

whilst they were trading in a horrible product was still quite
likable. It's, it's quite a paradox, but, um, or a dichotomy, whichever. And,
uh, and I had more than one of them say, you. Bastard, you know, and I said it
wasn't personal. Yes, it was. How much more personal could it be? Well, you're
right.

It was personal. Um, but again, you know, that's why I think
sometimes I have a bit of a sociopathic personality because I got enjoyment out
of that as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
You know, the look on their face.

Rosie Skene:

I think,
yeah. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Exactly
right. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

. That's
funny. Um, it's something, yeah, the intense, , Adrenaline that you would get
with undercover work, like we've spoken about, , that would have been
addictive.

Keith Banks:

Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

and
then, , you've, you've left undercover, but you would have still had that urge
to get some sort of rush.

Keith Banks:

Precisely. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So
then you moved into a different side of policing and I think equally, was it
equally or maybe, maybe more even, , high stakes, I guess you had a team with
you, but you joined the tactical team.

Uh, response group but it wasn't, it hadn't quite started full
time when you joined had it?

Keith Banks:

Yeah, it
was , so tactical response in those days was, well it was initially the
emergency squad and , and the same name as the New South Wales guys, , I say
guys but Because there were no women um, you know, there were different days.

And, uh, I, uh, I went back in uniform, uh, for six months,
which back in the mobiles, which bored me because I'd been in that undercover
world. And, uh, and the emergency squad responded to a siege on the Gold Coast
from memory. And I saw the news footage of these, these guys in blacks with M16
rifles and, you know, bullet resistant vests as much as they were.

And I thought, I want, I need some of that. You know, so that
was again fitting in with that, you know, wanting to be the super cop, but I
always wanted to be at the sharp end. I wanted to be doing stuff that really
was meaningful, that I saw as meaningful, um, and combating hard cooks because
a lot like Sydney, we had, you know, A lot of armed offenders in Brisbane, even
though it was still regarded as a big country town.

There was a lot of armed robbery of banks. Banks were, um,
banks were an attractive target because of all the cash they carried in those
days. So we had a lot of armed robberies. We had a lot of gun men. bad guys. ,
we had a, quite a few domestic sieges. It was long before the, um, firearm
rules were tightened after Port Arthur.

So pretty much every house had a gun. You could buy an M, a
mini 14 or a shotgun at Kmart without a driver's license. It was just open
slather.

Yeah.

You know, people can't comprehend that now, but yeah, everyone
had guns. So the emergency squad was essentially, you know, domestic sieges
and, , the 1982 Commonwealth times.

The attitude nationally started to move to counterterrorism,
you know, in Europe, Baader Meinhof gang had hijacked aircraft, , the Oh, God,
there were a number of terrorist groups that were killing people. Um, the SAS
raided the Iranian embassy in 83,

maybe?

Can't remember. Um, and they suddenly appeared in public in
blacks and gas masks and submachine guns and crashed their way into an embassy.

And suddenly the spotlight changed to counter terrorism.
Federal government started to fund the state groups. , the emergency squad
moved from Pretty much a domestic siege response to the next stage of
counterterrorism, especially as they were involved around the country training
as well, training teams.

, and so I applied for it, but yeah, I've got to get me some of
that and apply for it. Yeah. Yeah. And, , and yeah, I was a member of that part
time because I, I left mobile, went into the CIB as a junior detective. , and I
was still a part time member of that. So in those days we trained four days a
month, , and we were on call.

So, you know, if anything came up we were contacted, we'd
group, we'd get tasks, we'd go and do the job, we'd kick in doors, we'd, you
know, lock up the bad guys and then go back to our normal jobs. Um, so loved
it, , I um, I thought this has got to go full time at some point, you know, the
the only full time team in Australia with the SOG in Victoria You , at that
stage, because they'd, I think they'd had a Commonwealth Games in Melbourne or
something, which caused them to go full time.

Um, so I knew it was happening at some point, so I hung in
there, and in 1986, I, no, 1987, I was asked to, it might have been 86, I can't
remember, but I was asked to leave the CIB and go into the Tactical Response
Group as one of the first full timers. So. Jumped at it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

And, um,
that was 87. Sorry, because in 86, I'd been sent on training courses.

I did a bomb disposal course and, and, you know, I was fairly
well regarded. So it was being trained probably with an eye to the squad going
full time. , so yeah, I did a bomb course, uh, prior, sorry, went full time,
did the SAS counter instructors course in Swanbourne at the SAS regiment in, um,
June 1987 and just loved it.

, I thought this is my career forever. I saw it as incredibly
meaningful. It saved lives, you know, um, high risk stuff. The adrenaline was
back again. Being with a crew or a team of like minded people, having what we
thought was proper equipment in those days, um, you know, and just basically.
Again, to be truthful, having a lot of fun,

Rosie Skene:

you

Keith Banks:

know,
there's, there's nothing better.

And I've said this, and I won't use the same language I used to
use, but there's nothing better than crashing in a door at four o'clock in the
morning and putting a gun in a robber's face and saying, , please wake up, sir.
Um, you know, it just, it was just such an exciting, cool. place to work. There
was always the threat of, um, violence, of course, but we, we executed hundreds
of raids and not a shot was fired.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. And I think with a, in an environment like that and you have your team
with you, um, there's such a high level of trust that you have to have with
each other that then fosters that bond. Also, ,

and I

think they both sort of coexist, don't they, because you have
to have the trust, but then you have to have the bond to have that.

And that's what makes those teams, , effective, I think,
because you know, that everyone's got each other's back. You couldn't have
someone that you couldn't rely upon in that role.

Keith Banks:

Yeah,
quite literally, you know, you, you, you enter a room that there's certain ways
to enter a room. You are literally placing your life in the hands of someone
behind you and trusting that he again, no girls.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

That he
is going to cover your back and engage any threat. Um, and you're doing it with
loaded firearms on, um, with safety off, you know, so you've also got to trust
that someone is tracking across the back of you with a loaded submachine gun,
that they've got their weapon discipline, right. And, and everything's fine.

And, and you likewise with them

yeah.

Um, and you know, so all of that is an incredibly bonding
experience.

Plus,

you know, when your adrenaline's up and you're cracking in
through a door after an armed robber or a prison escapade, Or whatever, um, you
know, you've got to have your, your act together and you've got to be able to,
one of the, one of the, the, the aspects we used to talk about was controlled
aggression.

So you need to be aggressive, but you need to control it. And
it just needs to be done in a teamwork, um, capacity. And I've never
experienced that anywhere else. It was just, it was awesome.

Rosie Skene:

, so
something that I do want to talk to you about, because I, I really think , that
it's important to talk about and remember people, , that have made the ultimate
sacrifice, uh, for the safety of other people.

And on the 29th of July in 1987, , you experienced a tragic
loss of one of the teammates, , and a friend of yours, Senior Constable Peter
Kidd, , during a raid that went wrong, I guess you could say. , so you went,
you were there to arrest, , a prison escapee from Long Bay Jail. , I think he
was number one at the time on the Queensland's most wanted list, and he was
pretty high on the national most wanted list.

Um, he was the real deal. He had some really strong intel
there. , and from what you shared in your book, Peter himself had raised
concerns in relation to the vests that you were going to wear. And, , you knew
that you guys were going into that operation ill equipped, , for that level of
risk that was involved.

and he'd spent some time
organizing it, , in a way that you believed was the safest way, despite his
warnings and your concerns, , that were shut down as well as your requests for
certain types of equipment that you did have available to you, , to aid that
tactical approach. So this entire situation became a tragedy, , and a complete
failure.

I believe in, in resources, , and leadership at the same time,
the Fitzgerald inquiry into corruption had just begun. I think it was the first
couple of days into that, , inquiry. So looking back at that, and I'm, I know,
I'm sure. I would be the same. I'm sure you've thought about it an infinite
number of times, , over the years, but can you walk us through how that all
came about, , and how it felt knowing that Peter had anticipated these risks, ,
and that you're all still sent into that situation.

How, how did you process not only that grief from losing a
close friend, but also the knowledge that. It could have been preventable,
maybe you'll never know, no one will ever know, but, , that hierarchy could
have been more concerned with moving the immediate attention away from, from
that inquiry.

I just, I listened to your books, , because I struggled to read
long texts, but while listening to your book, I went through some really
intense emotions, um, in, in this particular story. , my whole body responded
to it. So it was, it went from angry to then obviously devastated for you and
your, and your team.

Um, but then deep compassion as well, because I can't even
imagine how, how that would have been for you all, , to deal with in such an
intense situation like that.

Keith Banks:

Yeah,
thank you. Thank you. That, that, um, I really appreciate your words, um, it
still makes me angry all these years later.

Rosie Skene:

You
know, like I'm, I feel angry now.

Keith Banks:

Yeah, so
in essence, um, I mean, I could go on with that flash dance for, for probably a
couple of hours, but in essence, uh, , yeah, the offender was number one, he
just escaped from Eight or nine years before or something. He was a psychopath.
He, um, he had committed a number of armed robberies, fired shots in many of
them, um, killed one person in cold blood, crippled another just because he
felt like shooting.

Um, so we knew full well the type of person we were going in
against. And I'd, uh, as I said before, I'd completed the Counter Terrorist
Instructors SAS only a month beforehand. And, and I knew what was involved in
what's called a deliberate action, uh, what was necessary. Um, a, a sergeant
and I sat down and, and designed or wrote the deliberate action order, the
operation order.

Um, I, um, Uh, had included in that order the use of flashbangs
or stun grenades, distraction grenades, um, and tear gas. Both of those were
refused permission by those in charge, and, and I know the names of those in
charge, and they're both deceased now, and I don't mention their names out of
respect for their families, but these two people, in my view, were probably
very much responsible for how that job, how that operation went.

Because they refused our, uh, they refused permission for us to
use tactics that we knew were required.

Rosie Skene:

And,
sorry, can I, and did they have the knowledge to, to stick by that? Like, did
they, no, they didn't know what they were talking about.

Keith Banks:

So
there's a difference between leadership and management. You know, you lead
people, you manage things.

These two, People, um, didn't even ask what a distraction
grenade was, you know, and, uh, and I'm sure that when they read the op order
they just went grenades, we don't use grenades, the answer's no. Rather than,
as a leader should, seek clarification, seek information. Um. So. They refused
permission to use tear gas because there were two children in the house, not
understanding that gas was to be pumped into a certain section of the house, it
wouldn't have affected the kids at all.

So that sort of thing. Peter had also, uh, Pete was another
full timer, he and I started full time in the group the same day, you know, we
were both excited by it. We both used to joke about who'd be promoted first,
um, you know, and, and he, he lived and breathed it as much as I did. Part of
his role was, , equipment.

So he'd put in a massive report recommending our ballistic
vests be upgraded. And the vests were only really ever designed to repel
shotgun or pistol rounds. Uh, the offender was armed with a 2 2 3 rifle. So,
you know, the vests were completely, um, unusable, inappropriate, whatever. Um,
so, um, The report he put in was knocked back because of budget.

You know, that was just classic policing. Let's not worry. This
still makes me angry. Let's not worry about, you know, uh, the impact it has on
saving lives. It's about money. So we knew full well that we were going into
that job, um, under equipped and that the tactical plan was not what it should
have been.

So my, my idea, the only diversion I could come up with was,
um, to station the team under the offender's window. And it was a classic. Um,
sort of classic, , Brisbane house where the land at the front sloped away. So
under the front of the house was, , maybe about a metre and a half drop, um,
and it turned out later that the offender had actually built a trap door to
escape via that, if he'd been able to get through a trap door into that drop he
was from.

Um, so I put a team outside there and said to them, or their
instructions were, we will try to enter covertly, if we can't, you hear the
hammer smash the door, throw a ladder through the window. to have him believe
you're climbing up through the window. So they did all of that. And within a
split second of us smashing in the, , hammering in the back door, he was up and
fired two rounds through the skirting board at the ladder where he thought the
team would be climbing.

So he was, he was shooting it out regardless. , He had changed
the way the back door opened to have it swing outwards rather than inwards,
which stopped us by probably three to five seconds, and it's a long time in a
tactical world. So we ended the house. Pete was number one, , in the team. , I
was the team leader and the order of March requires the team leader is the
fourth.

So the team leader can make decisions and whatever, and that's
haunted me for a long time as well. Um, so we, we went in and, , and as we
approached the door, we were required, you know, to scream police, police don't
move, don't move. So we knew we were coming and, , as Pete pushed open the
bedroom door, he was shot through the door.

Um, I saw him shot twice and , and saw the impact rounds had on
him. And then I saw him take a step forward, aim at something inside the room,
and then there was more gunfire. And then, in the next, it's really hard to
remember, maybe 20 seconds, you know, there was a, a gunfight. So another,
another team member started engaging the offender, , they had a very small
door, very small bedroom.

I went in behind him, , I engaged the offender, , and the
offender was killed. And, , Pete was in the corner, he'd been hit four, or he'd
been hit five times, , once through the wrist, four at the body. And all the
rounds had gone through his vest as we knew they would. One of those, those
tragic, , experiences, you know, when we were getting all, we're briefing the
crew the night before, because we'd been rehearsing this for two days, , we'd
looked at everything.

Um, one of the armed robbery squad detectives picked up the
vest Pete was laying out because he laid all the equipment out for us, you
know, et cetera. Um, and said, mate, will we stop a 223? And Pete said, no God,
that'll go through like a nitrate butter, hot nitrate butter. , And he was
right and, and he died that morning in hospital and, and it just devastated us
all.

You know, so I had a combination of grief and anger and what I
now know is post traumatic stress.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

No one
knew what it was in those days. Um, so, you know, we were interviewed by the
homicide squad. Rightly so because the offender was dead, all of that stuff,
that process has to happen. But, you know, in, in that, in the 80s, late 80s
attitude, I suppose, in policing, the Homicide Squad Detectives were brilliant.

They could see that I was, you know, I can only speak
personally. Um, I was separated from the others, of course. Um, they could see
how, how full of grief I was. And so their answer was to take us upstairs to
the police club and get us pissed yeah. You know? Um. Yeah. And, because
that's, that's what we thought.

That's, that's what, you know, the coping mechanisms were, of
course. Um, and, you know, I just descended into this whole depth of darkness
and anger and sadness and grief and alcohol and, you know, I look back on it
now, and just classic symptoms of post traumatic stress. Because the disorder,
as you probably know, comes when it affects your life for more than six to
eight weeks.

Mine knocked me around for 30 years. Um, so I was going
through, I just went through all of that pretty much immediately and, and I was
seething with anger for years and post that job, that's, and again, I look at
all this in hindsight and I've gone through this with my psychiatrist, you
know, she's brilliant.

We unravel this stuff a lot. Um. That's when I started
rebelling even more against authority, against, you know, those, those in
command who, while it may have held the rank but had no ability, I was just
openly contemptuous of, you know, so quite career limiting in hindsight. Um,
but I, I just never wanted that to happen to any of my people again.

And, um, and the other side of the coin was I wanted to be in
every dangerous job I could because I wanted to kill everybody.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

I wanted
to kill as many crooks as I could, you know, so all of that darkness really
just overtook me as a human being and I'm not proud of those years, but I hid
it behind, uh, I hid it quite well.

I think my undercover experience came with a fall where I just
put on this mask. I'm okay. All is good. You know, but underneath there was
this whole seething, dark, angry young man.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I,
, I can't even imagine like the anger that you would have felt. And I think
that leads a lot of people out of the job as well.

Um,

that distrust of management,

,

and knowing and, and knowing that they probably don't know as
much as what they think they do, but also they're not keeping everyone safe. ,
just leads onto my next question, actually, like, you know, I From your
perspective as a police officer with the experience that you had, and then you
moved on to become a detective sergeant, , in charge of a team, I guess, , and
a handler as well for some undercover.

Keith Banks:

Yep.

Rosie Skene:

Do you
think in today's police forces across our country, even the world, that they
still have the systemic failures in leadership? Yeah. And do you think they're
doing enough to protect the people and the boots on the ground?

Keith Banks:

You
know, sadly, sadly, the answer is I think it still happens.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
think so too.

Keith Banks:

I, I
know that the promotion system is, you know, I get this from current serving
cops both here in Victoria and my friends in Queensland. It's, it's heavily
weighted towards favouritism and nepotism. So whilst there's a merit based
promotion system allegedly in place, the reality is it's, it's, it's a, you
know, um, people are looked after.

And if they are politically astute, they will be promoted to
positions of leadership of command. I won't call it leadership of command that
they're totally unsuited

for. You know, it's, um, God, there are a myriad of examples of
that. The problem is, the problem is people are, and not, not all of them by
the way, there are some senior police I've met who I've got a lot of respect
for.

Sadly, in my experience, the numbers who are inept outweigh
those who are capable. And those who are capable generally aren't chasing the
next promotion, they're more concerned with the welfare and safety of their
people and the public. That does them in bad stead because they're not spending
their time climbing a political ladder.

Um, often, yeah, people who are promoted to very senior
positions are politicians, they're not operational cops. And, you know, a lot
of them are, have spent a little time operationally, but then have worked in
headquarters, carpet strolling, Making alliances and allegiances.

Um, and, and that's the
sad reality of it. And I see that across, you know, when I read, , when I watch
footage, I see that across the world, you know, it's the focus. It's one of the
reasons I left. You know, I, I had to leave. Um, I just resigned. I couldn't,
should have, could have taken a medical retirement, but I just left because, ,
I could see in my opinion that policing was changing from protecting people.

To becoming a corporate hologram, you know, and becoming
politically politically correct is not the right term, but becoming so, so risk
averse and concerned with public opinion that the core function of policing
preservation of life and protection of property was lost, you know, and you see
that I see that now.

Yeah, you

know, the way policing is conducted across the country, it's
heart breaking.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, it
is. And I think you're right. Like they're just so risk adverse.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

How that
it's gone the other way.

Keith Banks:

Well,
you know, they're told now that, you know, they'll be charged with, with
assault or misconduct or whatever.

And, you know, body worn cameras, I think, are a bit of a
double edged tool, double edged sword. Um, they protect people. That's great.
But, , for God's sake, make a decision, exercise your powers of authority. And,
and it's not the individual cops that, that I criticize or observe. It's the
way that they're taught.

It's the leadership. One of my favourite stories, and I can't, I
think it was the 80s in Victoria. There was a police commissioner, Mick Miller,
who everyone who knew him loved him. You know, he was, he was the boss and he
was a leader. And there was a kidnapping, I think it was the, The cook's name
was Eastwood, I may be wrong.

But this guy kidnapped a busload of schoolchildren, , demanded
a ransom, , detected there was a, , a set up, he alleged handover of the money,
he was arrested. During the scuffle he produced a firearm, he was shot in the
leg by a detective. And the commissioner was sitting at a press conference that
day, and one of the journalists said to him, well, your detective shot the
offender in the leg, that's what he did.

What action do you propose to take about him? I'll send him to
the target range. Next question, please. You know, that's what, that's what it
should be. And you know, it's, , our people take, and a true leader would be
saying, yes, yes, there was an arrest. Yes. Okay. Next question. You know, but,
but cops now are told that they will lose their jobs potentially if they do the
wrong thing.

The other side of that is they don't take immediate action.
This guy injures someone, produces a knife, whatever, and a police officer or a
bystander is killed or worse. Their actions will be soundly criticized

a hundred percent.

So

they're just not, they can't win. I dunno.

I just don't get it. Yeah. You know, and, and I, and I, I try
not to comment on things I'm not involved in, but it's bloody hard sometimes.

Rosie Skene:

. Okay.
So you just mentioned that you'd left, you left the police of your own accord.
, And I think in your books, you said, , you didn't feel like you're happy to
promote and, and like what you just said, like, it just wasn't for you anymore.
Um, how was that experience for you just leaving?

Keith Banks:

Uh, you
know, it was tough. It was tough because transitioning out from, , an
occupation I've been in since I was 16, you know, that was the core part of my
identity. And it was tough to leave that behind. , I've just started writing a
third book about that stage.

Yeah. Yeah. I hope, I hope so. Yeah. There's no gunfights.
There's no, you know, that's all, but it's really about working in the private
sector and navigating through all of that.

Rosie Skene:

Sociopathic.

Keith Banks:

By
certain people as well. Um, but I've actually just written about that, how hard
it was. You know, it's just the last thing I put on the desk was my ID.

Um, and moving into the private sector, it's interesting.
People don't really care about what you've done as a cop. Not because they
don't care, but because they don't understand and it's a bit confronting for
them. I found, you know, cause I I'd, I'd had medals and I had publicity and
all that, but still embarrasses me a bit, but you know, people would say, Oh
yeah, Oh, you were in, did you ever shoot anybody?

You know? And I'd say, yeah, I did. And they'd be horrified.

And I think, well, don't ask the question. You don't want the

answer,

you know,

um, and, and, and all of those things to navigate and
understand that. Normal people aren't experienced to the world that we've been
experienced to, and I took it for granted that they'd understand that world.

You know, and then I had the other side of it where people
would say, Oh, you left the police force, did you? Why was that?

Rosie Skene:

I guess,
especially at that time

as well.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Intimating that I'd left under a cloud. Um, so all of that was, was
challenging then moving into a world that I don't think I ever really
completely fitted into.

, because I was still carrying all of that stuff that I now
know was PTSD, anxiety, and depression. And, um, And, um, I was covering it
with a vial of alcohol for a long time. So, you know, I'd get quite, and part
of the disorder is you get quite angry very quickly.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Keith Banks:

So I'd
sit in meetings and someone would disagree with me and I'd think, can't you see
the logic in this you clown?

You know, and then I'd get angry with them. And I want to reach
across and grab them by the throat. All of that stuff. , which is, and in
hindsight, if I'd understood what I was going through, I wouldn't. Been able to
deal with that a lot better. , I remember being in retail. I was a national
risk manager for a particular company, newly appointed.

And, , and my general manager got me in about, about three
weeks or something. It's gone. There's been a complaint about me. And he said,
yeah, one of your team, you're having a disagreement with him. And he
complained, you glared at him really badly. I remember thinking glad at him.
He's lucky I didn't. Um, you know, so, so, so transition is interesting.

Um, and I guess part of my reflection on it was, I, , I was
still wedded to that whole camaraderie thing in the cops and I judged other
people based on the relationships I'd had in the cops, which was completely
unfair to them.

And I realized it took me a while to figure out that, you know,
there are some pretty nice people outside the cops and they, they've just lived
a life that's pretty sheltered and I shouldn't be judging for that.

But it took a while to get to that stage, , and I moved from
Brisbane to Melbourne about a year after I resigned and it was quite lonely for
me because Again, my friends were in Brisbane and I didn't have the ability to
form friendships with people, probably because I didn't trust anybody.

, because I was burned by my experience. I didn't trust
managers, you know, the whole retail world is full of, sorry to any retailers
listening, but tends to be full of people who react emotionally and almost
hysterically to situations rather than take a good calm look, you know. , so
for years, as I've worked my way through.

Positions to seniority, I guess, , I'd often have people say,
geez, Keith, you don't panic about things. No, I don't. Because you know,
there's much greater things that happen in the world. Yeah, that's right. And I
used to say, because no one's going to die today as a result of our decisions,
, let's just take a bit of a breath.

Um, oh, you're so calm. Yeah, yeah, I guess I am. Again. No
one's going to die today, folks, , so that, that was an extra that, that was
having to learn to change probably my lens of the world, you know, and
understand that people do get excited and upset about. What I used to think
were fairly minor things and that's okay.

That's, that's okay for them. You know, um, whereas I probably
first 10 years, I judged them pretty harshly.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
no, I can relate to that. I know that I had my lenses were a bit, , skewed, I
guess, when I left as well and found it very difficult to trust people. ,
something that I've spoken about, I spoke about it very openly and very
honestly is my diagnosis with PTSD.

, and how it was one of the best things that ever happened to
me was to get that diagnosis. , I guess from that point, I knew exactly what I
was dealing with. And so. I could, I think it gave me permission as well. , not
only to address it, but to acknowledge that everything that I had been going
through wasn't in my imagination because, , I was always one of those people,
like it won't happen to me, , like most people.

Um, and look, I know your diagnosis came, was it 30 years after
you left?

Keith Banks:

2019. So
I left in 95, so 25 years, 26 years, that's

Rosie Skene:

a

Keith Banks:

long
time. How did you go?

Rosie Skene:

How was
that? 24

Keith Banks:

years.
Sorry. It's just because I'm quicker. It's

Rosie Skene:

because
you do the math. So 24 years. Yeah,

Keith Banks:

24
years.

Rosie Skene:

How did
you deal with that, with, , everything that was going on for you and moving
into a new world in your job role, but also having a wife and children?

How was that process in that 24 years? And then at which point
in your life did you think to seek help and, and get ultimately that diagnosis?

Keith Banks:

Oh,
yeah. Another really good question. I, um, I didn't know. I just thought I had
some anger issues. I, you know, I knew I drank too much. I knew I was angry. I
was never physically violent, um, to my family.

I would never do that. But I just had, yeah, just a short fuse.
Um, you know, if someone had bloody, we'd be having, sitting down and having
family dinner at 6. 30 at night or something, and the doorbell went, I'd be
seething with anger. You know,

Rosie Skene:

how

Keith Banks:

dare
someone interrupt that? family time. Or the phone would ring, the old landline
would ring, I'd be seating with anger.

You know, just, I look back now and go, my God. Um, but I
thought that was just normal. And, and my wife put up with so much, um, And she
just thought that was just my personality and and after my diagnosis, you know,
I sat down with both my girls and my daughters and apologized to them , and
they're lovely.

They just said, we remember it a different way, dad, you know,
um, which is lovely. Almost makes me cry every time. Um, and my wife said,
well, now we know, you know, she, she said, I just thought you were a prick you
know, a lot of the time,

and

yeah, it was just quite natural, I guess. And um, and now we
know it's a, it's a disorder and a traumatic brain injury and okay, I'm still
not very comfortable with what I was like, but like you, it was incredibly
empowering.

So but going through it all, I don't know, look, you know, I
caught up with spider who was next undercover guy. He went to jail for a couple
of years because he went to the wrong side of the line, made stupid decision.
Um, But he came out and we reconnected and, and I spent some time with him in
New South Wales and, and he was the one who started me thinking about it.

You know, it's so, you know, how many times do you lock the
door at night? How many times do you do this? Do you get angry about stuff? You
know, you might have PTSD and I went, nah, PTSD not me. That's, that's for
people who've served in Afghanistan or Iraq, you know, been in dangerous shit.
Yeah. And, um, and I thought, no, I discounted it.

And then, um, uh, my mum was tragically killed in a road
accident in 2012 when I fell off. But before that, , 2006, I'd had a major,
major anxiety attack with no catalyst. Just froze to the ground. Horrible. , so
I started talking to a counsellor then, but I still, still didn't believe that
counselling was for me.

, she did some rapid eye movement, made me feel better. , then
I went back, then I went, now I'm fine, then I went back, now I'm fine. And
when mum was killed, I, , elapsed into a state of depression and I'm very sure
that everything had come back. So I went to my doctor, we talked about it, ,
started antidepressants, which made me feel sort of normal, because the, the
pit of anxiety I'd had in my stomach for years was suddenly gone.

I was like, okay, well, if the meds are working, that's
fantastic, , and thought, yeah, maybe I should talk to someone, but. I like it
at, you know, when I do keynotes, I talk to people and always get to laugh
because many true things are said in jest finding the right counselor or psych
or psychologist is like speed dating.

You know,

Rosie Skene:

you

Keith Banks:

go,
yeah, I like the look of you. No, you're not for me. Oh yeah. No, no, no. Yeah.
I'll get along with you. No, you're not. Oh, hello. I might spend time with
you. And for me, that was finding the right psychiatrist, , was exactly that. I
went through a succession of counsellors. I went through. You know, I think one,
I think a couple of them were a bit more screwed up than I was.

, but one who, you know, I was sitting and talking with him
about the impact on my family and how they reacted to me. He started to
criticize them. What you need to do is tell them they need to understand you a
lot better. But wait a minute, that's not what I'm here for.

But not one of them gave me a diagnosis.

And um, so that led me to believe erroneously that I didn't
have PTSD because otherwise why would they have not? They would have

Rosie Skene:

told me.
Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

So, um,
I met, uh, well, I was referred to the current person and, , and had an hour
with her. And she was the first, I remember, who listened intently. , and then
at the end of the hour, because humour is my defence mechanism, , Doc, what do
you reckon?

And she said, Keith, you have chronic PTSD, anxiety, and
probably depression. And she said, I'm, her words, she said, I'm just amazed at
your resilience. Many other people would have curled in a corner years before
now. I went, wow. And, , like you, I just found that incredibly empowering,
because I thought, okay, I haven't been imagining it, , it's a disorder, but
it's not a, it's not bipolar, it's not a personality disorder, it's not that
I'm an asshole, it's just that I actually have PTSD.

So, okay, what do we do now? And, and that, that just, even
that conversation was a massive part of my recovery, because I remember, um,
They make me cry now. I'm so emotional these days. I contained all my emotions
for so long. No, I'm the same.

Rosie Skene:

I cried
at the drop of a hat.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
Okay. Wow. Um, I remember reading my wife and bursting into tears

and just saying, Oh fuck, I've got this.

Wow. You know, and, um, and then it was really

The antidepressants, I thought, okay, they have a certain
scientific basis, for sure, but as I got better, I sat with my GP and spaced
myself off of them. Excuse me. So I don't have any, I don't use antidepressants
anymore. Um, I've discovered, the power of conversation.

Yeah. A

really authentic conversation. You know, for a long time, I
couldn't tell my wife what I was thinking or feeling.

I wasn't brave enough to. Um, I don't think she was able to
hear it then either. So through all of this, we now just go, okay, this is how
I'm feeling. You know, this is how, this is making me feel. What about you? Um,
Same with my daughters, we have open conversations. Same with people I know.
And, and part of that I think is, is hugely beneficial.

Um, understanding the causes, understanding the triggers,
understanding the power of, um, of breath now. Um, wow, you know, all of those
things that I probably would have written off as being quite esoteric.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Keith Banks:

20 years
ago. I now espouse to everyone, um, exercise, joyfulness, you know, pets
conversation, mindfulness, all of that stuff is just so incredibly helpful.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

You
know, and every chance I get, you know, I talk to people I know who are
struggling and suffering and say, Hey, this worked for me, give it a crack.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. I'm exactly the same. Just like, and it helped me. And I like to think,
you know, as a tactical cop, um, and I did my, my bit in weapons training and
there's a tactical options model, right?

So you've got all your different appointments and arms. And
then I think your mental health. Um, treatment, I guess you could say is
exactly like that. , so you, you have all these options that are available to
you and you can pick and choose, , those things as to what you need at the
time, , you talk therapy or your mindfulness or your breath work, , I don't
think, , or medication even.

All of those things, like it's not a one size sort of fits all,
it's a, you know, pick what you need type of thing. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Totally
agree.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And just with that talking to people, I think conversations that I have with
people now are much deeper than I've ever had in my life before. It goes so
much deeper than surface level and I think I encourage that because I know what
I need.

, and, you know, when you say to your friend or something, ,
how are you, how are you actually today though, you know, how, how are things
going for you? And it gives them permission or I'll say, you know, I'm not
doing very well myself. And then that gives them permission to say, okay, yeah,
me either, actually, um, X, Y and Z it's happened.

And I just feel like there's so much power in conversations
with people. , and one of the reasons that I started the podcast was so that
conversations with people like yourself. That can make other people have a
little bit of a think or make them feel like, yeah, I'm not the only one that's
gone through this particular thing. , and there's so much power in that for
people.

Keith Banks:

Yeah,
absolutely. Look, it's like looking into a mirror, except you're far better
looking. Um, that's, that's exactly how I feel.

Rosie Skene:

It's

Keith Banks:

having
an authentic, you know, and, and I hate using buzzwords, but having an
authentic conversation with someone. So I've got my.

My friends in Queensland, I call them my brothers by choice. ,
and I ring them at least once a week or vice versa. , and we have those
conversations. We have deep conversations. We never would have dreamt of back
in, in our cop life. , and we end each one by saying, I love you, mate. Yes. ,
and I never, we never would have said that and meant it.

So it's a real shift in, in attitude and understanding and, and
having that ability, even though it's later in life to just be fair dinkum and
open, you know, and be there for each other. And, and friends of mine in
Melbourne now, you know, um, retired police or police who've left because of
medical conditions or whatever, and ADF people.

I'm so blessed to be in this network of. Of men and women who
fought overseas in the Afghan and, , and Iraq theatres. , then I'm, I'm
accepted as one of them and, and, and accepted as one of them because we share
all of this, this openness, which is just brilliant.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

And it's
not just us though, Rosie, , it's everybody.

Everybody is affected by some level of trauma, whether it's
childhood, relationship, work, whatever, , things I may have seen or witnessed
or been involved in. And you've got moral injury on top of that. So everybody
can benefit from. This type of conversation. I reckon it's a shame. It took me
so long to find it, but it's better than not having found it at all.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.
Yeah. Imagine still being where you are. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Oh God.
Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Something that I did want to ask you actually, , given the history that you've
had in those high adrenaline roles as an undercover officer and, , in the
tactical response group, How do you satisfy that need now, or, , have you found
new ways to channel that energy , or just cope with not having that adrenaline
rush anymore?

How do you do that?

Keith Banks:

Yeah, I,
uh, there, there used to be a place in Melbourne where you could do rap
jumping, which was a carabiner rundowns from seven floors.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
yeah. So,

Keith Banks:

so yeah,
adrenaline, uh, like, um, abseiling, but running forward. Sadly, that closed
down a few years ago. Um, but I, I train in martial arts. I'm a karate, I'm a
martial artist.

So I train in karate dojos at least three times, if not four
times a week. And probably not a replacement for adrenaline, but it's tribe.

It's connection, it's shared purpose, and, you know, we do get
punched in the face. Um, so, and part of it is BJJ as well, so all of that, all
of that stuff really satisfies for me, , the need to get the adrenaline
pumping, because it still is, you know, it's still a combative sport, and a bit
of gym work and so on, but I, I think I've probably lost the need to have that
incredible rush.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

You
know, and part of my self reflection is I probably had my fair share of
adrenaline plus somebody else's, , in my life.

So I don't, I don't have that all consuming need for it
anymore. I'm more about just doing, doing things that give me purpose and
enjoyment in martial arts is one of them.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that helps too, with your PTSD as well, like
breathing and movement and martial arts. Yeah,

Keith Banks:

absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of breath similarity with, with, , with
certain breathing kata and, , And both work

Rosie Skene:

for
sure. Yeah. so I want to talk about your books cause they're so good. , thank
you.

I'm actually reading it for a second time. , the first one. So
I love them and I'll tell anyone I can about them. , they called drugs, guns,
and lies. My life is an undercover cop and gun to the head. My life is a
tactical cop, the impact, the aftermath. , and like I said, you know, I
listened to audio books.

So that's how I get my fix of reading these days. And I was, I
was painting my house, , while I was listening to them. And I, I don't think my
husband listens, but I was sort of almost making excuses to go and paint. So I
could just listen to the book.

Keith Banks:

Um,

Rosie Skene:

yeah,
which is funny, but the way you've written them is so beautiful because It's
such a real and honest and no bullshit, um, account of your time , in the
police.

And I really love that so much because I think there can be a
bit of fluff. added sometimes to books.

Keith Banks:

Um,

Rosie Skene:

and I've
really enjoyed that part of it. And writing about such intense experiences must
have been not only challenging, but cathartic, I think as well. Um, what led
you to doing that, to writing your stories and putting the pen to paper or
fingers on the keyboard?

Keith Banks:

Um,
yeah, well, cathartic, absolutely.

Um,

I, I wanted to start, I don't know, it was probably, Gee, not
long after my mum was killed, I guess. Um, and, and I was working through some
stuff and, and I wanted to just write a couple of things down to give my girls,
my daughters, because I was starting to understand that I wasn't right, you
know, and that I, that I needed to, to do some changes.

And, and so the first chapter I wrote was about the MLC siege,
where I spent an hour and a half with Frank, who had a box full of gelignite
and a hand grenade and whatever. And, um, and I wrote about that. And I gave it
to my eldest daughter to read and she went, wow, this is, this is great. Gave
it to another friend of mine at my karate dojo who came back next week and
said, I want to read more.

Um,

Rosie Skene:

and,

Keith Banks:

and so I
just started putting together some disparate chapters, you know, um, about some
things. And then I. I ran into a guy, for everyone who knows me, this is no
surprise, ran into a guy at a pub, um,

Rosie Skene:

he

Keith Banks:

was
sitting at a nearby table when I was regaling my friends with some stories
about my undercover time, and, um, and his partner said, oh, you should write a
book, so we go chatting, and I said, yeah, I'd love to, I need a ghost writer,
and she said, well, actually, my partner does exactly that.

Right. So, so Ben and I then communicated over probably three
years and and he encouraged me to keep writing stuff You know because I I
suffered massive imposter syndrome Who'd want to read my shit? No, and um, so
back and forth and I'd have three or four months where I wouldn't And he'd ring
me and go, come on, mate, let's get into this.

So, you know, um, that's why I gave him a co author status
because he really helped me. He motivated me to write and he he'd round off the
rough edges. I guess

he

taught me a little bit about writing and so on. He got a bit
flowery. So then I'd go, no, I don't want that in because that's not that's not
who I am.

So back and forth. And the first thing took maybe four years.
And, um, and I'm so blessed. I, um, because of my medals, I'm part of the
Australian Bravery Association, which is an association to support people
who've gone through traumatic incidents, predominantly civilians, who do brave
stuff and then struggle as a result.

It's a fantastic, um, support organisation. So I just posted
something on a closed Facebook group after the first book was really, um, Um, I
think I, I think I'd written, we'd written maybe 110, 000 words or something.
So put it on there and said, look, I've finished a manuscript about my stuff.
Anybody got any suggestions what I should do?

In essence, someone came back on immediately who'd been
published and put me in touch with two publishers. The hardest thing about
getting a manuscript published is being read. So again, very blessed within, I
don't know, a week, um, the, uh, the, the chief guy from Unwin & Unwin came
back and said, I've read a couple of chapters.

I want more. Let's have a conversation. So, yeah. Um, edited it
off changed. I changed the ending to, to finish where it did.

Mm-Hmm. .

Um, and I was left with about another 20,000 words or something
and I ended up scrapping and just wrote the second one by myself from the
beginning. Um, but yeah, essentially sent it off and uh, and my wife, holiday
wife and I were in Vietnam holiday and we got an email to go, here's your
contract and you know, we want you to publish.

I went, holy shit. Um, and then. In our notorious lockdown in
Victoria, ah, he takes a big sigh so he doesn't get angry again. Um, uh, I was,
I was just working remotely, you know, I finished my stuff with my team. I was
the COO of a member association and I just sat here one day and went, I've got
to sort some time in.

I know, I'm going to start writing. So I started writing the
second one. Um, and again, because I had so much more to tell and, and because
I had so much confidence from the fact that the first book was so beautifully
accepted by the reading public, that kicked my imposter syndrome off my
shoulder for a while.

Um, and then I just started writing the second one and just
wrote without any ghostwriter. And I think the second one's better, but that's
just me. Um, and, uh, and I just started writing, I think I've written about
three chapters or something, and the publisher came back coincidentally and
said, hello, Keith, wondering what you're doing.

I'm really keen to see what. Is still in store. So I sent him
the three chapters I'd written. He sent back another contract advance payment
and went, right, here's your timeline, make it happen. So for me, it was, um,
you know, I've said, I've said often to people, you know, if, if a person who's
not had much experience with the police.

Can read my books, and at the end of them go, Holy shit,
there's more to being a cop than I ever imagined. And that changes their
opinion, or it changes the way they look at police from that time on. That
would make me incredibly happy. Because most people think that. Being a cop is
all about writing traffic tickets,

you know,

or going to road accidents.

They have very little concept of the, the human impact or the
impact it has on humans doing that role. And, and in my second book, um, my
wife, uh, looked at the, I didn't do the, um, the cover photography, all that,
that comes from the publisher and that's all good. So did the titles actually,
um, after much, conversation between them and me.

Um, but Jen looked at the second one and I think it should
include something that the impact of it and the aftermath. So that's all that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

I'm very
proud of doing that. Cause it's, it's exactly what that book's about.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Um, so
yeah. But so both things it's, um, it's, it's wanting to change people's
opinions.

It's, It's a need in me to tell the stories of particularly
Peter Kidd and other things I was involved in, not with me as the central
character. I hope it doesn't come across that way, but just the, the stories
that need to be told and recorded, I think, because that era in Queensland was
pretty challenging.

Um, but also, you know, the second one is about recovery and
it's about the fact that you can. Get through this stuff that you're not alone,
you know, um, and the impact on people That impact the people have had on me in
in in helping me through all of that, you know, I thought really needed some
credit and that's why I wrote about that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. ,
I think you, you definitely captured all of that. Amazingly. Like I, I've not
read a book, especially I love autobiographies. It's my go to type of book to
read. I pretty much don't read anything else. Um, unless it's to do with yoga
or mindfulness or something like that. But if I'm going to sit and read one,
it's definitely an autobiography and I just, you It made me, , I guess
emotional as well from being a cop, , and thinking back on my own time.

I mean, yours was, you know, a few years before mine and then
thinking, comparing my time, , timeline, I guess that, that time when I was in
the police in the two thousands and yours in the eighties, , and nineties, how
different it was, but also still very similar, with the relationships that you
form with people in the job.

Keith Banks:

Um,

Rosie Skene:

and, and
then, you know, how you again, miss it or, and then relationships that you form
with people that aren't in the job, you know, like you had a, , a time there
where you were doing some witness protection and, and that relationship that
you form with that person as well, you know, like, I've really loved hearing, ,
reading and, and, and learning about those stories as well, because it did make
me reflect a little bit, which I think is so beautiful.

And for people that haven't been in the Police I definitely
think that you have achieved what you set out to achieve there as well. Oh,
thank you. So congratulations. I'm really looking forward to a third one. Can't
wait. .

Keith Banks:

Well, I
hope it's interesting. Um, but, you know, so I'll do the same thing. I'll, I'll
sort of do three or four chapters, send it off to my publisher and see what
they say.

Wait for the check to come, .

Rosie Skene:

Well,

Keith Banks:
unfortunately you don't make a lot of money as an author. Yeah, no, I have
heard that. Only if you sell hundreds of thousands of books. But, you know,
it's, it's not about that. It's, um, what, what it's done for me is it's given
me the ability to appear on podcasts like this.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Keith Banks:

and,
and, and put my message out there to as many people as I can, um, which is
always really beneficial for me to talk about this, even though I've done it so
many times,

Rosie Skene:

it's

Keith Banks:

still
great for me, makes it easier a little bit every time. But I also know there
are people that listen to my stuff and, um, And it has a positive impact on
them.

Because I know that, because I know I get messages from a lot
of people who, who have thought they've struggled alone. But you and I have
spoken about it, you always think you're the only one going through it, and the
reality is you're not. And and it's given me that ability to be there, it's
given me that ability to do some media, , all of that , is what I feel
incredibly grateful for.

You know, it's such an important conversation to have and, and
people like you and I literally save lives.

Rosie Skene:

Mm.
Guarantee

Keith Banks:

it.
There are people, listen, listening to podcasts like this and go, okay, maybe I
do need to get some help. Yeah. Maybe getting help's. Not weak, maybe getting
help is a good thing, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

I agree.
I mean. Like I said to you in the first email, I've read your books and I
really wanted to get you on and then I got really intimidated and I didn't do
anything about it. And then, , and one of my friends actually sent me a message
and said, , Oh, have you heard of Keith Banks?

I'm like, yes, I have. He's like, have you seen that TV show?
And I said, no, I have not. I'm going to watch it. All right. I'll watch it.
I'll watch the investigators. And then, , Yeah. At the end of the second
episode, you said the beauty of these conversations and connections is that,
you know, that you're not alone and that is so powerful.

And then immediately after I switched that off, I sent you the
email because I'm like, he's just like me. Um, and, and that's the entire
premise of the podcast is that to share stories of real human people that have
gone through some shit, um, and managed to come out the other side, because
when you're in that, I think sometimes you don't think that that will ever
happen.

And you know, I've got the, I've got the ham, cheese and tomato
of mental health as well, like PTSD, anxiety, and depression. , and then
depression especially is tricky cause it's very sticky. , and it's hard to come
out of it. So I just really want to thank you for coming on because. Like, I, I
totally agree with you.

It's so important to share our stories in the hope that it will
help other people, but hopefully save lives as well. Um, and, and that other
people realize that it's worth sticking around for. ,

I just, I started after just seeing one too many, you know,
deaths by suicide of police and veterans. And it breaks my heart every time I
see another one, but I usually end, , With a little piece of advice or
something that you might like to share for those people that I hope to reach
that might be having a tough time, um, to give them a bit of hope other than
your whole story.

It's so hopeful. Um, but do you have anything that you like to
share? Um, in relation to that,

Keith Banks:

I guess,
um, and first of all, thank you for inviting me on Rosie. This, this has been,
uh, one of the most enjoyable podcasts I've done because you actually Get it,
you know, um, so, and people with that lived experience, just, you know, we, we
understand it without even having to verbalize it.

Um, but I guess the, the advice that I'd give, um, the advice
I'd give is understand that no one will judge you if you pick up a phone and
want to. Talk to someone that the thing that kept me from being authentic about
how I was feeling and what I was going through for such a long time Was the
fear of being judged the fear of being thought that I would be perceived as
being weak And that you know that that need for constant Affirmation that I was
an okay person is part of the disorder So don't be afraid if there's someone
that you can trust in your life You Don't be afraid to have a conversation with
them and say I'm not doing too well, can I spend some time talking to you?

And if you're listening to this as someone who is approached to
listen, my advice is shut the hell up, don't try and solve a problem, just be
there for someone to talk to, yeah? And, be a part of an ongoing support for
them. So, they're the two pieces of advice I'd have, I guess. Don't be afraid.
Don't, don't let it hold you back.

Because that first conversation you have with someone about how
you're feeling will change your life. I guarantee it.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much. , I, especially that second bit where if
someone comes to you, you don't need to fix their problems. You just need to be
there for them so they can voice them sometimes.

Keith Banks:

Yeah.
They just don't want to, they just want someone to sit with.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. So powerful. You do lots of work now in relation to mental health and you
said that you do some speaking so where can people find you if they want to get
you to speak

Keith Banks:

or
anything? Um, yeah, you can jump on my website, which I put seconds of thought
into.

Keith Banks com au .

So good, .

And, uh, and, and it's a bit clunky. You know, I put it
together a few years ago when my book was first released. I'm, I'm working on
another one, but you can certainly find me through there. Um, you know, so
there's some cute little photos and whatever. Um, but yeah, if, if anyone is
there and I'm, I'm on LinkedIn again under Keith Banks or ba um, Instagram on
Banksy 1 7 5.

Rosie Skene:

Awesome.
I'll link to all that in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Banks:

Thank
you. Um, but yeah, that that's, I enjoy it. I, I get such a kick out of, um,
standing in front of a group of people talking about this and seeing the light
bulbs go on.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Keith Banks:

And I'm,
I'm blessed. I'm one of those people that has no fear of public speaking.

You give me a microphone and audience in the mail, and then,
you know, as you can probably tell, um, but you know, which is, which is a
very, uh, yes, the question.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Awesome. Thanks again for coming. I actually forgot for a while there, probably
a good hour that we were recording a podcast.

Keith Banks:

Well,
that's great.

That's the way it should be. I reckon. It

Rosie Skene:

is.
Yeah. It's so good. Um, but thank you so much for coming on. It's been a joy.

Keith Banks:

Thank
you. It's an honour to be invited. I love what you do. You should be proud of
yourself.

Rosie Skene:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while
you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate
your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at
Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and
workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skeen. Join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.