Rosie Skene:

Hello,
and welcome back to season four of Triumph Beyond Trauma. It is an absolute
thrill to be back after a few weeks, completely offline. As we quickly roll
into the end of the year, I think it's imperative that we focus on our mental
wellness now more than ever. This time of year really has the potential to
create a lot of anxiety and overwhelm in people.

with sometimes unrealistic expectations and outcomes. In order
to help people be the best they can, not only at this time of year, but at any
time, I'm going to be releasing a series of micro programs in the next few
weeks. These will be completely online and will provide you with the knowledge
and tools to focus on a specific area of your life and create micro changes
that will have a positive and most importantly, lasting impact.

I'm a massive believer in the 1 percent every day to create
significant and lasting change. So I'll help you to do that through these
programs. I created a wait list for when they're released. So if you want to
head on over to tacticalyogaaustralia.com/microwaitlist, and
you will receive notifications and updates around that.

You might've noticed that there've been many former police
officers featured on the podcast. And while I feel absolutely blessed with all
of my guests, I would love to extend the invitation out to other first
responders and to veterans. Who would like to come on and share their story of
triumph beyond trauma?

Please send me an email. [email protected] to
get in touch. I would love to hear from you and learn about your story. Now,
this week's episode is longer than normal. I did consider creating a two part
series, but I figured that you guys can just pause it and come back to it
whenever you like.

My guest today is retired detective superintendent, Deborah
Wallace. Superintendent Deborah Wallace rose to the top of the New South Wales
Police Force with grace, humour and an iconic sense of style. In her incredible
37 years in the force, Deb commanded a range of specialist crime squads,
bringing order to the Wild West of the 1990s Cabramatta and busting criminal
bikey gangs with Strike Force Raptor.

Deborah retired from the New South Wales Police Force in
December 2019 and has been keeping very busy since. In 2020, Deb's official
biography was published, A Woman of Force, written by veteran crime writer Mark
Moray, brings to life the jaw dropping true story of a police trailblazer and
woman of force.

And I can confirm, it is an amazing read. In 2022, series one
of the true crime series Million Dollar Murders, hosted by Deb Wallace, was
launched nationally on the Nine Network. This gripping landmark series returned
with series two in October 2023, as Million Dollar Murders re examined some of
Australia's most baffling unsolved murders.

Working closely with homicide squads around the country and
armed with one million reasons for people to come forward, Deb discusses the
cases with colleagues and interviews detectives, witnesses and family members
hoping to spark a long forgotten memory or a change of heart that will bring
justice for the victims and their families.

With the biggest rewards on offer, one million dollars for
information that leads to an arrest and conviction, these cold case homicides
are the most chilling murder mysteries in Australia. In addition, Debra always,
also keeps busy with her charitable work. She volunteers at the Swansea Meals
on Wheels, she's the president of the Swansea Workers Club and she works in an
op shop to raise money to support Grace's Place.

Grace's Place is a world first trauma and wellness residential
centre for children between 3 and 15 who've suffered from the impact of
homicide. The doors opened to Grace's Place in February 2023. In October 2023,
Deborah was appointed to the New South Wales State Parole Authority, bringing a
wealth of experience and knowledge of law enforcement and the criminal justice
system.

Having worked closely with an array of community groups,
including indigenous migrants, culturally diverse communities, and young
people. I hope you guys enjoy Deb's story and the wisdom that she generously
shares, not only as a police officer of 37 years, but just a truly remarkable
woman. I feel absolute joy in bringing this to you.

So let's get into it.

Welcome to Triumph
Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm
Rosie Skene, a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga
Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

. Deb Wallace, thank you
so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here.

Deb Wallace:

Thank
you, Rosie, for giving me a call. I'm really happy to talk to you.

Rosie Skene:

, I
usually start with how people have come to join the service that they've been
in. So would you like to talk a little bit about your background and how you
found yourself as a police officer in New South Wales?

And what were your early years like?

Deb Wallace:

I'm a
Western Suburbs girl of Sydney and, , which I come from an area out there. ,
called Westmead, which is near Parramatta for those who aren't from, , New
South Wales. And I'm very, very much from a working class family. So, um, high
work ethic from my dad.

And, um, I'm actually the third child of four, but my oldest
siblings are 14 years older than me. So I came along later and then I've got a
brother that's 12 years younger than me. So, We span a whole generation. So, ,
I remember, you know, having such a normal, just a normal loving family. Um,
again, working class family, not never had holidays, which is understandable at
the time.

And, um, my, the only requirement I did what was called sixth
form back then at Parramatta high school, as opposed to year 12. And, , I
remember, I wasn't, you know, it was, I come from the era that to go to
university, you either have to be rich or brainy, and I was neither. So, and I
also didn't have those aspirations.

. So when I left school, which was year 12, in those days, my
dad said to me, so what are you going to do with your life? Now, I wanted to be
a travel agent, but understandably that was a bit like out there because in
that era, girls tended to work for government departments.

Um, you know, it's secure like the bank, the Commonwealth bank
or whatever. And I just stopped because he actually stopped outside my place.
Um, anyway, so I usually work for the Commonwealth Bank. So my dad at the time
was working for an electrical company as a locksmith. So with great pride, he
announced to me, he said, don't worry about your plans for the future.

I've got them organised because I've got you a job as a clerk
typist at Prospect County Council. And he said, and you're lucky because I've
pulled a few strings. And you're 17, but you'll be able to be there for life.
It's, it'll be secure and you'll be there for life. And I'm thinking, Oh my
God. And he said, and the best thing is you're starting Monday.

And this was like Friday. So I went along and, , stayed there
for two years and I thought, Oh, I can't stay here forever. And then as, as
luck would have it, I opened a newspaper one day and there was an ad for
recruitment for the New South Wales Police Force and they were actually, it was
for general recruitment, but they had a special note that they were recruiting
women for frontline, because women had been in the cops at that stage for, you
know, 90 years just about, , because it was 1982, so they'd been around since I
think about 2010, but they hadn't gone frontline until 1978.

Right. I was one of those sort of coming in under that, um, or,
you know, after all the great work done by my role models or my predecessors to
come in front line. So I remember saying to my dad, I applied without telling
dad and then I got accepted. And I remember the words my dad said when I told
him I'd been accepted.

He just said,

Oh God, help us all.

So that was a vote of confidence. , so I didn't really have
any. great aspirations all my life to be a cop, it would just sort of happened.
And I didn't really know what it was going to be about or what it was going to
be like, but I knew, , it would be, I could have it as a career because I was,
uh, I suppose not, I didn't have that conflict.

I somehow knew at the age of 21 that I didn't want to have
children. So that I thought, if this is a career, I can invest very strongly
into that career. Yeah. So my first station was , again, being a Western
Suburbs girl and used to go on the ferry and the train to Manly on weekends
with my girlfriends, you got to nominate, , where you wanted to work.

Three options, whether you got that, it's a matter for them,
but you got to nominate. So I put down Manly as my first choice. And I put
Cronulla as my second choice and I left the third choice plank. Well, they
filled it in for me, so on our day of passing out parade, the day we marched
out as probationary constables, I, , got Blacktown Mount Druitt.

And so I'm heading west and, , Black, uh, those days now today,
of course, Mount Druitt's a standalone station, but back then, Blacktown was
what we call the main station and Mount Druitt was the substation. So you
worked at both in that time. That was, so I actually left the, , Academy on the
6th of May, 1983 to start my career.

Rosie Skene:

In your book, A Woman of Force, you share a story from really early on in your career,
, I would love for you to share it, , and it was about working on the truck
with Paul Garner on a Friday night, and you were called to a brawl involving
like a fair few intoxicated men, and while rushing in, you managed to stop it
simply by getting out and asking politely, , And I'm sure you didn't expect
that to work, but it did.

Do you think, I've got a question after you tell the story,
but, , do you think that that moment sort of highlights the, not just the
differences between genders in policing, but also how individual personalities
and strengths play a role in how officers handle situations?

Deb Wallace:

Yeah, I
think it goes even a little bit further too.

And I worked with Paul was I remember walking into the academy
to the sorry to the, , black town the very first day. And I met by at this
female second class sergeant called Joan Stedman. Joan had been from the
original police women. So she was called what the police women branch. Now she,
Didn't want to transition across to be frontline, which some women were given
that opportunity, but she also didn't want to retire.

So she was too young really to retire. And I don't know how old
Joan was. She never talked about her age. She was always the same for me. She,
um, they, they obviously looked after those women and she became the station
sergeant. In other words, in charge of running the station. Now she did iconic
figure.

Very, very flamboyant. Head. Um, red hair and a bob, so
stylish, you know, we go to the races and wear hats and gloves. She was the
epitome of, I suppose, a very, very stylish, iconic woman. And I remember she
said to me on my very first day, when I got there, she dragged me aside and she
said to me, she looked me up and down and said, I'm going to give you some
advice.

And I thought, Oh, well, you know, she's obviously, you know,
she's going to have some great advice. She said, never compromise your
integrity. or your femininity. Remember, you're a policewoman, not a policeman.
And I thought that was really poignant at that stage because, you know, apart
from the fact that in those days, we, they actually got rid of, we, women
before, just before me had to wear skirts, which were really impractical, like
pencil skirts.

So we at least got to look sort of a compromise in that we had
these really unattractive things called culottes, which, , they go to the knee.
They looked like a glary skirt, but they're actually shorts. So it was Very,
very attractive. And I think by her giving me that advice was sort of saying,
and she did follow up with be true to who you are first and foremost.

And I think what I took from that was, , I know I wasn't ever
going to be, , like people that worked at Blacktown, they were, that was
special. It was very, very busy, very tough. So the cops were, , I think the
best in the business. And you talk about a story of working with Paul and how
that came about.

When we first got there, there was only a handful of us girls
there. And I really didn't know what to do with this because they were still
getting used to these women in frontline and particularly black town Mount
Druitt. They hadn't been in that many. So that was still the fantastic guys
sort of protected us.

I sort of thought, well, they, you know, they'd like their
sisters. They like their wives. So they, there was no rule book on about what
women should or shouldn't do. We were, we were trained the same as men. We had
to do the same fitness training, et cetera, et cetera. So. It was my view at
the time about not imposing myself on them.

I would have to, , action speak louder than words. So I didn't
want to beat my chest and say, well, hey, I've done the same training. I
deserve to have the same opportunities as my male probationary constables. So
I, I figured just listen and learn and keep your mouth shut. And eventually it
paid off because they then put us out on the trucks, which were, they had these
two F 100s, um, back in those days, were our flagship trucks, I guess, for want
of a better word, that had the senior constables working them.

And I remember coming in after about six months and I saw on
the night shift roster, because in those days we worked eight hour shifts,
morning, afternoon and night shift. And it was 11 o'clock and I've come in
thinking I'm going to be working with the sergeant again, which has been the
first six months, and I got to see that I was actually working, what was called
27, which was our area and 27 one, which was the flagship really, but with one
of the best cops in the command, like he was tough, Paul Gard, senior
constable, about six foot three.

chiselled out of absolute concrete, big strong jawline. We had
this group back in those days called the Tactical Response Group, the TRG,
which is today, I suppose you'd call it the public order and rights squad type
equivalent. But back then, and they were, you know, they were big blokes, you
know, knew how to wield a nightstick if they required, they were like iconic.

And so I got to work with this amazing, he was the best crook
catcher ever and feared, feared by criminals and cops alike, I think. And so
he's looked, it was some dismay when he's seen that I'm with him and he's just
looked me up and down and gone, Oh, he used to call me DB. He says, come on,
DB, let's go, but you're not driving.

I knew that was going to be a step too far. So we drove out and
the double beeps go off, which means, , everyone be attentive. There's a,
there's an urgent job. And the urgent job was for us to attend this hotel at
Laila Park called the Stockade. The stockade had a very, um, one would say a
colourful clientele and, , in those days pubs shut at 11 o'clock and, uh, no one
wants to leave, , it's just getting ready to, , not party so much, but you
know, if they'd had a few under the belt and there was a brawl, report of a
brawl outside cause , no one wants to leave and they punch on and we had to
respond and we'll be with no backup because all the other cars crews were tied
up.

Well, he's just looked at me with this trepidation and he said.
We're dead. We're about to be killed. You and me at a brawl and all I can think
of, my self esteem was growing up by the moment because this is my first sort
of real, I suppose, to a first response to an active incident because working
with the sergeants previously, you always got there after in a bit.

That's why they were sergeants. They're pretty smart. And. We
were on the way, he's got his lights and sirens on and he's going, we're dead,
DB, nice knowing you, we're dead. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is, you
know, what's going to happen here? And we get there and sure enough, there's
about 40 guys punching on, and all I could think of at the time, not about
whether I was going to get killed, But how the hell am I going to get out of
this truck, which is up high?

You have to sort of step, hoist yourself up. Yeah. And make,
and get out with some dignity because all I could think of in my mind was my
culottes are going to get hooked over the handbrake. They're going to get
hooked on the radio. They're going to get, Cooked on the baton, we had a baton
holder on the door, and I'm going to fall flat on my face, and I'm going to
disgrace all women for the future, including myself, and so while this is going
in my mind, he's, Mongrels getting used to, sorry about that, he had a
nickname called Mongrel, so I do revert back to Paul as Mongrel, he's um,
getting his nightstick out of the holder, and I, so I decided tactically to
you.

Hoik up my culottes up to my thighs, wrap them around my legs,
and jump out of the truck to make a clean landing, so at least I had some
dignity. And I did that. Well, as I landed, the men that were punching on just
sort of looked in our direction and I think they thought, what the hell's that?
As I said, who are you?

And I said, Oh, I'm probationary constable, Wallace, they said,
like, like a cop, like a police officer and said, Yeah, we took some explaining
and, and they're going, Oh, that's fantastic. We haven't seen a woman cop hit
one of these. So, and they're, they're sort of now quieting down and there's
the leader saying to them, stop swearing, guys, look, look, we've got a police
chick over here.

Look, look, she's, you know, and they said, What are you, what
are you here for? He said, well, and I said, Oh, You know, because you're all
fighting, you're disturbing the peace and, and I could look at Mongrel and
he's just shaking his head. And then they said, so what do you want us to do,
love? And I said, Oh, I'd like you all to leave quietly if you could.

But I said, you know what, love, that's actually lovely to be
spoken to like that. And because you've treated us so nicely, we're going to
leave quietly and maybe we get to see you next week. And off they went. And
Mongrel was just shaking his head, puts his nightstick back in the bat holder.
We get back in the truck and he looked over at me and I thought, this could be
the shortest career in history.

And he just said to me, D. B., you and me. Every Friday night
from now on and we did and for me that was a watershed moment that I was
accepted and I'm sure the other ladies that were with me had other ways of
doing but for me that was the moment and from then on I got to work that 27 2
the flagships until I went into detectives three years later.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's such an incredible story. I think it's so good. And, you know, it really
does show that, even back then, like, you know, women have such an impact that
I don't think anyone would have realised would have happened. , yeah, and I,
and

Deb Wallace:

I think,
um, whether people say, would that have happened today?

I think probably it could, and I think it does. I think it
does. And, and, and I jokingly, and I do apologize to all my male colleagues
for what I'm about to say. Former colleagues. Um, and that is, I, I remember,
saying someone asked me this question once and about, you know, different
approach that women can take. And I said, well, women, I've got two weapons
that men often don't have, they go why they give you extra gun, bigger gun, you
know, extra capsicum spray and I didn't have that in my day.

And I said no, women have got a brain and a mouth and we can
usually talk our way out of anything. And again, I know that's a bit flippant
and a bit light hearted, but I think women naturally will use what we can't
make up for in a, you know, a braun situation where that's required. We can
tend to. Um, adapt, I guess, to, um, that way and you do get that a lot these
days.

Oh, you know, uh, someone, you know, it was about five foot two
came and, you know, what good would they be? And I said, well, you know, you
have no idea till you see them what, what tactics they can use. And they'd got
the same training and that, and that's these days, you know, you might have a
five foot two male and I had one of the most, most, um, fantastic cops was a
very, um, Um, that I worked with years later, very quietly spoken, um, not big
guy, smallish.

And yet he was like a six Dan black belt.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

So, you
know, you know, looks don't always present.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
You can't judge a book. Yeah. A book by its cover. Good. Yes,

Deb Wallace:

exactly.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. ,
You've described your career as full of highlights. You know, rising from
constable to detective to commanding like gang squad, Middle Eastern organised
crime squad and strike force Raptor early on in the book.

You mentioned that you struggled to ask for what you wanted and
doubting whether. Other people might've been more qualified for roles, but you
did continue to seize those opportunities and rose to the rank of detective
superintendent. How did those promotions come about for you? Did you envision
that path for yourself or did you find yourself navigating some unexpected
opportunity?

Um, I'd, I'd love to hear how you built your confidence over
time to advocate for yourself and step into those leadership roles as they
emerged.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah,
it's, it's, you know what, I, to be, I, I, I wasn't very ambitious because I
loved every bit of my career. I didn't look for the next one. I was really
comfortable in the roles that I did.

So I really wasn't looking for the next role until, um, it was,
it was actually not me that said I'm ready. And it was actually, um, my male
bosses and they're all men. And they were the ones that said to me, I want you
to apply for this position. You're ready. You need to do this. And I doubted
myself. So, um, right up through, right up to the rank of superintendent, I was
second guessing whether I Had the skills.

And I think that's not uncommon with what women do. We don't
think we're worthy. And, um, so my, my first promotion, I guess, was, um, I
was, you know, detective. I'd worked at Blacktown Mount Druitt, a detective
senior constable. Then I, I went over to Cabramatta in the early nineties and
worked there for five years as a senior constable.

And you really, it was, , a lot of people didn't really. Know
how busy or what camera matter was about. I mean, we had it was the
subscribers, the biggest distribution of street level heroine in the southern
hemisphere because of the contacts directly with Asia. We also had so many gang
related murders, but it didn't get a lot of media because the community were
very, very, very resilient and very tolerant.

Some things did, you know, of course, when we had the
assassination of John Newman, um, in the mid nineties, that sort of put
Cabramatta, I suppose, for unfortunate reasons, on, on the map. But prior to
that, it was this really, but it was all being, , really the cops there, there
was only a handful of us detectives, and you, and you had to be a jack of all
trades back in those days.

You did every, you know, working, you might be working the beat
next, and our young cops were, um, young detect, training detectives were
actually beat police. , that were coming up through. So, um, going there as a
detective, Senior constable, , we were training the young, the junior officers
as well. So it was such, and so doing all of that, it wasn't until, , one of my
bosses, Paul McKinnon, who was a chief superintendent , of the region, actually
he was the region commander.

, He sort of said to me, why aren't you applying? There was a,
for a proactive, I like to do proactive policing as opposed to reactive. I knew
that's where I really wanted to head. And so he sort of said, look, there's a
position coming up at what's called the, , the, it was called the special
operations group, which is not what they have in Victoria, like the tactical
operations unit, it's sort of, um, a mixture of trainee detectives and
detectives, a bit, if I was to be flippant and say 21 Jump Street type.

, and we did a lot, we did , the, all the street crime, I
guess, for want of a better word. And that, and of course our biggest issue was
drugs. So we became a, like a, a pseudo drug unit. And, he said I should apply
for it. And I did. And I had, , those days, , each promotion could be appealed
and I had two, , guys appeal me.

And so I had to go and defend myself like in a court and argue
about why I was better qualified. And, , it's funny, when I got to the appeal,
the judge who ran it, they were called, they were judicial officials, just said
to me, he said, and you normally have to present it like a courtroom, present
your case, the appellate can, , argue against you, then you get the final right
of reply.

And the judicial official said to me, in a courtroom, said in a
courtroom, said to me, you don't have to say anything. I've read your regimen,
I've read your qualifications, I've read the comments, so you just sit there
and say a word. And I thought, oh no, this is not looking good. And, , the
appellant, who was very polite and a colleague, he gave very good arguments
about why he was better, , more worthy of the position and the judge cross
examined him, or the judicial official I should say, cross examined him and, ,
and said, I'll make my decision this afternoon.

And then he rang and said, , it was, you know, obviously you've
now I've confirmed your appointment. So I guess, , that was, I thought I was
out the door when he said, don't say a word of it. You don't need to say
anything. , so that, yes, that was the first one. , and then, , I was happy as
Larry out there at Cabramatta.

And then, , after the Royal Commission, , they were promoting a
whole lot of, , people and I was, I left Cabramatta and went to, , Internal
Affairs. Afterwards, not because I had any great ambition to go to Internal
Affairs, but it was a bit of a dark period in my career in that, and whether
the motivation was jealousy or not, I don't know, because I went on to run a
little, , a specialised gang unit.

That was my first introduction to the world of gangs. The same
boss put me in charge of this gang unit at Cabramatta. And I know there was a
lot of guys wanted that job. I don't know why, but you know, whatever reason
they, they felt they wanted it. And it wasn't promotion. It was just putting,
you know, as a young sergeant put in charge of this, not, not dissimilar to the
work I was already doing.

And, , I don't know whether it was just, , Miss misinformed or,
but they made, , Well, let's just say a number of complaints were made to the
Royal Commission that I was now the leader of the gang that I was targeting
because the leader of that gang had been murdered, Tri Min Tran of the 5T gang.
And there was numerous complaints sent to the Royal Commission, well, not
numerous, but let's just say enough for the Royal Commission investigators to
turn and focus on camera matter and on me.

And, um, and it was actually, ironically, you know, they, they
obviously got, formed an opinion and eventually had nothing because, , I was
just doing my job with my fantastic team of young cops. It was, , 15 of us or
20. And suddenly, , the gang members turned up at my station and said to me,
Madam, some men, some funny men come to our pool hall and give us a card and
ask us about you.

Do you, we give you money. , and we just looked at them and
said, if we give her money, do you think she'd get a better car? She drives a
shit car. Have a look at it. , And they handed me the card and the card was the
Royal Commission. Wow. , and I was shocked because when , you think, Oh yes, I
know the Royal Commission's going and they're targeting crop and suddenly.

Yeah. Oh, my God. You know what? And , I then got a call from
the investigators who told me that I wasn't allowed to talk to anybody and that
they wanted to meet me and that I wasn't allowed to inform anybody that, , they
were approaching me, , and I needed to be interviewed. And I'm going, Oh my
God.

And I, I know I broke the rule and I didn't know what else to
do. I was devastated. I didn't speak to any of my team, of course, but I rang
my boss. And I just said, I don't know what to do. What is this? And then he
just said, do nothing until you hear from me. And then he rang me back and
said, there's been a very misunderstanding.

, you don't need to meet with them. It's all been resolved. And
I think what he did, he explained my role was to meet with the gang members, to
focus on the gang members, not to talk to them. But yes, the relationship you
do have with the gang members was, as you said earlier, you get more with honey
than you do vinegar.

And, , so I use that skill to gather intelligence for our
operations, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, that happened. So I was basically
from the Royal commission. I got a lovely polite phone call back from the head
investigator to say, look, we have been sort of going down the wrong path here.
And we do apologize for what we've done, which I didn't know what they did.

And I didn't want to know. Yeah. , but. It's continued. Some
people who obviously were aware of certain maybe, I don't know, rumours,
whatever, continued on that. And as a result, Mr. McKinnon asked me, he'd been
appointed as the commander of the Olympic security. And he kindly asked me to
go and work with him.

He felt that while he wasn't there, people that didn't
understand the history of Cabramatta, didn't understand my role as gang
commander, little gang squad, blah, blah. He felt I might be exposed to ongoing
complaints, which I, which did occur. And he wanted, he suggested that I go to
the Olympics to be part of his team.

And I just didn't want to, because I, I'm a street cop. I don't
want to go. I didn't want to go to the Olympics. I love Cabramatta. I love the
community. I love being there. But he said, I don't know that you can stay here
without someone watching your back. And that's how, you know, so anyway. Long
story short, I ended up going to internal affairs and I was given what's called
a section 66, a temporary appointment to a rank of inspector to go and run a
team of investigators, , targeting a particular, , a small, small, short, sharp
job there, which went for two years.

And I stayed there, but knew my heart wasn't there. My heart,
Which is back out in the Western suburbs. So, um, I applied for a promotion.
There was a lot of people that changed sort of things. There was a lot of
promotion in 2000. So I applied and, , returned to Cabramatta as, , chief
inspector as a, and then a crime manager there in 2001 and, and then going from
there, stayed there.

I stayed there. I had a, the best, , it was, um, it was a very
colourful time. It was under siege from parliamentary inquiries going on for
some years, but I wasn't there. Some issues emerged, which is a story in
itself, which I won't go into. It's all been documented in a parliamentary
inquiry, but at least say that, , people moved on for their own, I think their
own mental health and career development and whatnot, or retired.

And, , a new region commander was appointed, , which was Clive
Small. Assistant Commissioner Clive Small who was one of the most brilliant
tactical and strategic minds I've ever had the honour to work for. A new
commander called Frank Hansen came in as the commander of Cabin Matter as a
superintendent.

And me as a Chief Inspector, Crime Manager, to implement some,
, new laws, some new strategies, some new tactics to resolve the issues, , that
were, were part of the Parliamentary Inquiry, which took a number of, a couple
of years, and we, under the guidance of Clive, that occurred. And we got a
good, , report card a year later from the, , Parliamentary Inquiry, who did a
review.

And then I was happy. , I was happy to be back at Cabramatta.
It was where my stomping ground, I now, you know, now the trauma of what we'd
faced for the last two years was over. And then I got a call from an assistant
commissioner at a place called State Crime Command, which is where all the
specialist areas are.

And, , he suggested I might be interested in a position there.
And I, I, I agreed. I, , thought, well, hang on. Wow, I've never been, that's
where, and I very naively said to him, , his name was Graham Morgan, Assistant
Commissioner Graham Morgan, I don't want to go to Six Crime Squad or child
abuse. And he's, he's a man of very few words, , and he said, why would you go
there?

You'd be useless. Thank you very much for the confidence. He
said, no, no, no. With your background, why wouldn't you go to the drug squad
or to the Asian crime squad?

Yeah.

And he said, you know, if you, I'm offering a one off
opportunity, but you need to tell me now. And I didn't have any time to think
about it, but wow, to get to, you know, I was totally raw because I was no, I
didn't know what that role was.

But if someone, I've learned over my career that if you,
someone offers you an opportunity, if you knock it back, you better have a darn
good reason because you might not get asked again. So I thought, yeah, I'll,
I'll take this opportunity, you know, maybe hopefully I don't fail at it or let
him down. I didn't want to let him down.

And I went and worked at Asian crime squad. As a chief
inspector in charge of a proactive team doing covert investigations, which, you
know, using all that mainly on drug, big scale drugs, extortions, all that sort
of another level, so much more organised crime than the street crime I've been
doing. And I had no idea what I was doing.

I, I had to use, , my, as a chief inspector, I had to use my
leadership skills with the team, of course, but more importantly, they taught
me, we did a lot of, , I made sure I went out with the team because I had to
learn how to do surveillance. I had to learn. These new tactics of long term
covert investigations.

And they taught me and I was a willing learner. And I think
that's what I learned was never be too proud to say, I don't know what I'm
doing. I need you. I need help from you. I need you to teach me. And , they
embraced that. They didn't think anything of that. They, you know, they, I
still advocated for them where I needed to, you know, such as for over time or
resourcing, et cetera, that was my role, but the operational side, I was.

I absolutely was not too humble to say, I don't know what I'm
doing. I was so bad at surveillance that they used to put me at McDonald's
because I then could get them lunch. So that's how bad I never, I was, I never,
never mastered that skill. Let me tell you. Not very covert.

Oh no.

I tended to wear, um, right.

Right. You know, the fact that I said, you need to tone down
those bright coloured suits of yours, that was really good. And that was never
going to

happen.

No. But now. And, of course, being there under the, I suppose,
the guidance of Mr. Morgan, listening to every word he tested me. Let me tell
you, he tested me and I, I struggled sometimes to, to fulfil what he was
asking, but I knew what he was doing was, you know, they say about tough love,
not saying he'd love me, that's too far, but he was teaching me and he
challenged me and he did.

and prepared me for what was to come next, which was to be
successful, , to be as the rank of superintendent in charge of Asian organised
crime.

And you did talk about that undervaluing, , I'd been, , doing
Asian crime for a lot of years now, you know, based as part of, at that stage,
18 years, and an opportunity, Graham had retired and a new assistant
commissioner came in, Dave Hudson, who's the current deputy, and he's another
strong male figure and, and very, very fair.

And he, , he was more, he was, I knew Dave, we were friends as
well. And an opportunity came up because a number of the senior superintendents
had retired, which had vacancies within this, there was at the time 12
specialist squads. A number of the superintendents had retired. So he decided
that before advertising for anyone outside the state crime command to apply,
he'd offer us the opportunity if we wanted to ask him or not.

Not say, I, you know, I wanna move there just to put a proposal
to him if we wanted to change. And I decided I did wanna change because I'd
been doing Asian crime for, this part of, like I said, 18 years and the, but
the squad I wanted. was a squad that I wanted to go back to my roots. My roots
were working a combination at Cabramatta with both plainclothes police and
uniformed police and getting that balance of overt and covert approaches to me
was gold.

To me that was the answer. So after a particular strike force
called GAIN, which was a strike force formed in 2003 to tackle a number of, ,
murders, one would say they're family related, but let's basically down the
family of Middle Eastern backgrounds, the Darwish's and the Razak's. Um, it was
led by an iconic figure called, , Chief Superintendent Bob Ingster, who was so
well known as one of the best cops around.

That then, he did Strike Force Gang, which then became a
permanent unit. They discovered after investigating the murders that there was
so much intelligence, , in relation to other gang related crime out there, that
they made that squad permanent. And in 2006, it became the Middle Eastern
organised Crime Squad.

And then leaded by another iconic figure, uh, Superintendent
Ken McKay. I suppose for me, Ken got promoted, but I suppose for me their
nicknames summed it up. Uh, Bob Inkster's nickname was the Snake, and Ken's
nickname was Slasher. And, as soon as you mentioned those words, everyone knew
exactly these were, you know, very iconic type, , characters.

Big, tall, strapping men. And so I've walked into Dave Hudson's
office and I said, my pink frock and high heel shoes and, time onto earrings.
And I said, Oh, you want to change Debbie said homicide. And I went, , no. And
he said, Oh, I thought you might want homicide because it was vacant. And I,
and I did it.

And he said, Oh, you don't. So what is it? You know what? And I
started to talk myself out of it by saying, , the previous two commanders were,
, these highly, you know, well known, respected, almost iconic , and I'm before
you and look at me, I'm in this pink frock and, , I don't know if it's
political.

I don't know if you can do it. He just said, Tim, what do you
want it? Just spit it out. What do you want? And I said, I'd like to go to
Middle Eastern Organised Crime. And he just, without even hesitating said,
well, if you want it, it's yours. He didn't think anything of it. So I was
putting all these and he said to me, but why were you talking your way out of
it?

Yeah. Yeah. Before you even asked. That's what we do. , it
stayed at Middle Eastern Organised Crime for the next seven years and then
moved across to my final stomping ground, which was the gang squad and strike
Force Raptor. And I stayed there for seven years.

Rosie Skene:

Wow.
What a journey.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah. So, so I suppose the message is, , you've got to, you know, I, for me, and
everyone will have their own journey, for me was live in the moment, enjoy what
you're doing.

Don't look, don't get somewhere and think, now what's next?
Because to me, , to bring your, your staff along on the journey with you,
you've got to have their support. You can't, it's not a, you can't do it alone.
It's a whole policing is teamwork. And for me, without their support there and
their, their help, their guidance at times, then you're not going to survive.

And they can pick a fake. So one of the things I always tried
to be was to be authentic, admit my faults, admit my weaknesses, build on my
strengths, , but never be too humble to, to reach out for help. And I think
getting to a place and saying, I really want to be here. And, , and proving
that by the fact that you do stay for some time , and get, and, , and learn
that trade and so you can advocate for them with some, some, , I suppose
credibility is so important.

So, yeah. Live, I'm not saying don't be ambitious. I'm not
saying that. I'm just saying what will work for you, but yeah, it's a lot
easier if you have, , I suppose that old word

Street credibility

first.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Absolutely. And just on, like you were saying that you had the support of your
team and in 2002, you successfully sued Alan Jones.

And I know that you had the support of your team there. , and
you call him a bully because he accused you of being a liar and sickeningly
corrupt and blindly ambitious and, and even suggested that you should be
dismissed, , which was a direct attack on your integrity at the time.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Can you
share the circumstances that led to that and him saying that, and do you think
there's a possibility that somehow, , these comments might have come from
within the organisation

oh, definitely. Definitely. I know

Deb Wallace:

exactly
where they came from.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
okay.

Deb Wallace:

It was,
and I never will say their names because, you know, obviously, but, but, It was
a, when I was talked about previously about being at Cabramatta, when it was
that really troubled time, put it shortly, I wasn't there at the time, so I'm
not going to judge the actions of others in particular, , because they did, I
know they did everything that the best they could, , they, there was no, , but
for whatever reason, , things fell apart.

And so there was this huge, , dissension between senior
management, so the rank of superintendent and, , inspectors and. , when there's
a vacuum of apparent, when there's an apparent lack of leadership, and I'm not
saying there was, then there's a vacuum. People will step into that vacuum for
perhaps well intentions on a lot of parts, but also Maybe self serving agendas.

And some did that. I think probably a mixture of both. And ,
when I went back there, what I, what I noticed was there was, it was a huge, ,
issues outside the police station because when 120 cops, fantastic cops just
want to do business, but they haven't got the leadership because the leadership
who they turn to being the sergeant rank and the senior ranks, uh, battling
each other, then who's, who's there to set, you know, the tactical agenda?

It didn't happen by the, from what I could see. , when I went
back there with Clive Small and Frank Hansen as a commander, the most important
thing for us to, we can't possibly battle what's happening out on the streets
unless we get our own house in order first. So that we're all, you know, going
in the one direction.

So that was , really, so, um, superintendent Frank Hansen was.
critical in that and little things I learned from him, like little things. He
taught me to be much more diplomatic. He taught me , to think before I speak,
which I sometimes should have listened to. , but little things that he
implemented, such as.

He said, no senior officer is to pick up the phone and call
people upstairs. If you want to talk to a staff member, you go down and you
talk face to face and you, so we weren't allowed as senior management to use
the phone. We had to go down the stairs and engage them. Also, no senior
management, because our officers were upstairs, is to come through the back
door and up the back stairs.

Every morning you to come through the front door and meet the,
, the morning crew. If you're coming in early, you say goodbye to the night
crew, , walk around and chat. So small gesture, but so important for that. So

Rosie Skene:

powerful
for sure. Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

So
powerful. I had a bit of, , a disagreement with some of that, in the middle
management area about, , some bullying that they, some inappropriate things
they said to, um, because the troops were starting to turn, and now the troops
were saying, , we've got everything we've asked for, we've got new laws, we've
got resources, , we're doing the drug work, we're doing, we've got bike squad,
, we're going in the right direction, so everything, everyone was happy, they
didn't want to go to a, that everyone was invited to give evidence at the
parliamentary inquiry if they wanted to, , about, you know, anything about lack
of leadership, about management, like it was a free, and we gave them that.

We said, if you want to go, you go. Well, the troops sort of
said, well, actually, what we worked didn't have before, we've now got, so we
don't need to go, which did cause some people with personal agendas, And they
took humbridge at that and they went on and made some inappropriate comments to
the lower ranks about their, you know, you should be siding with us, you
shouldn't be siding with the management and they couldn't understand what the
meat in the sandwich.

They're going, well, hang on, we don't even need to go to a
parliamentary inquiry because. We've sort of got everything we want now. We
just want to get on with doing our work, which is what they wanted. So when
they said, a couple said some inappropriate comments to some very, very junior
staff, I should have listened to Frank's advice and I should have counted to
10, taken a deep breath, but I didn't.

And I confronted a couple of these people, , at the rank of
sergeant and, , told them that, , They probably didn't have a place in this
command if they, if they bullied any more people. I won't stand for bullying.
Now, I don't know because I don't know personally what happened. I can't say
who, well, I probably have my strong suspicions, but let's just say the next
day I walked in under Frank's guidance to talk to the troops as I did in the
morning, go to the charge room and how it was overnight shift.

Is there anything I need to follow up for you? Stand around,
have a cup of tea with them. Just chat. Everything good. And then, , because I
used to listen, I still, it was 2UE at the time, I always listened to 2UE, I
listened to 2GB. And, and so I discussed my issues with Alan, aren't about
Alan, not about him at all.

And I never ever, I suppose to say that's a bit strong. I can
say that now, you know, all these years later at the time, I probably might
have thought that, but on the radio, they were talking about some drugs in
sport. Alan was commentating out of the 7 o'clock news. about drugs in sport.
Someone had been done, one of the football players, and I'm a mad footie fan.

I'm a Paramount Orioles diehard. And so we're all talking and
chatting. And then he said something like, Oh, when we come out of the break,
I've got some other thing to tell you about corruption. I don't know how he
linked corruption to drugs in sport, but anyway, , it's the second in charge
out at Cabramatta, , the crime manager, Deborah Wallace.

Haven't I got some things to say about

The funny reaction was at the time, the troops said, Oh, well,
Deb or boss, you have to shout because if you get mentioned on radio, you've
got to buy the troops a carton of cans for, you know, off duty. And I've gone,
I don't think I need to, if it's going to be bad.

And that's when he, the first broadcast was he called me
corrupt. He accused me of changing a computer entry. We have a system called
COPS,

Rosie Skene:

which is

Deb Wallace:

where
you record all your crime reports. And he accused me because based on evidence
given at the parliamentary inquiry by one of the, I can't say who because I
went in, they gave it under camera so I won't obviously never say who, but just
say evidence was given about gangs in schools and um, I was accused of by Jones
and he was given no doubt misinformation that I had changed that an event
changed an incident report to hide the fact there was gangs at Cabramatta High.

Cabramatta High was a bastion of safety it was, uh, that and
Canlyvale High. At the time, we stood, they were, you know, the, the, the
principals there, Mr. Kidd at Cabramatta High and Mr. Daly, the deputy ran it
like a, you know, it was like, it could not, they bang it. This, it was like a
sanctuary, you know, a learning bastion.

It was fantastic. And to hear Cabramatta High trashed like
that, really, but there was an incident and the principal, the evidence was
given at the parliamentary inquiry about a gang fight at schools, and the
principal, Mr Kidd, took umbrage at that, understandably, and rang Mr Hansen,
our commander, and said, what have you got about an incident that happened
yesterday?

Because he said, it's just, I've got all these journalists here
because allegedly I was assaulted by gang members. He said, that'd be the last,
they wouldn't be gay. Yeah. And then, oh. Frank couldn't work the computer
system. So he asked me to look it up and I looked it up and it said some, it
just said young Asian males were involved in a fight at the school.

So someone had given evidence. I'm not saying to deliberately
mislead. It was there that there was the fight was gang members at the school,
but Mr. Kid said, no, no, they were actually, it was after a footy match
between our school and a nearby school. So I told them all to get lost and go
back to school.

That was the school kid. So he said, you need to fix that entry
because I've given my report to the education department saying, you know, it
was our school and another school. So you can't have it out there as gangs. So
I looked on the system and it wasn't ticked as a gang related incident. It was
just described as young aides and males.

Now, the reality is you cannot change as, as you know, as a
former officer, you can't ever change the integrity of a report. You can just.
updated and had a narrative in clarification, which is what I did and said,
further clarification from the principle that the young Asian males referred to
in the initial report are actually students from Cabramatta High and the upper
school.

That's all I did.

Though, of course, that was my element of corruption. So I
thought, you know, I know, and it wasn't until a young kid said to me, one of
the young officers said to me, boss, you Are you gonna get sacked? I said, what
for? Because I just dismissed it as rubbish, you know, just, and he said, oh,
because you changed the computer.

And I said, do you think you can change a computer? He said,
well, we can't because you know we are Constables but you could, can you? Yeah.
Hasn't got that access . I said, no, we can't change it. He went, excellent.
And then off he went, , right? So it went on and went on and went on for the
next four months. Um, really every second, there was myself and Clive copying
at one day and the following day was the tax commissioner, Mr.

Carmody. So I was very thankful for him because we got a day's
break. I just put up with it. Um, what could I do? You know, I'm just. ,
Officer out here at Cabin Matter doing my best and Mr. Jones is powerful and ,
and I knew it wasn't true. So I thought, well, you know, sits in stone, just
get on with the job until a barrister rang me and I had him at a trial coming
up and he said to me, you know, that a police officer not only needs integrity,
but the perception of integrity.

And I'm probably going to ask you a couple of questions about
this because your integrity is being broadcast because you're not doing
anything about it, which tells me. I know you're honest, because I know you,
and I, I've been against you many trials, but he said, the jury might not know,
and I might just put a doubt in their mind by questioning of this incident, and
I said, what about that?

And so realised that I couldn't, so the first step, I didn't
want to go down that defamation, that's not me, you know, I, how could I do
that? So the association, the police association. rang me when I was doing a
lecture on our new legislation for drug houses and said, just to let you know,
I've just had this meeting with the troops in your area and we've just got a
petition and we're sending it through to Mr.

Jones about that on this occasion, he's ill informed and that
you have their full vote of confidence. And that was amazing. That was never
advocated. I don't even know who came up with the idea to do it. It was like,
man, that was. You know, that was a high luck for me. And I thought, Oh, good.
He won't listen to everything, , I'm going to say, of course, he's not going to
listen to me.

Of course, I'm going to say I'm not corrupt. And maybe he'll
listen to them. I thought, surely, , the people he's defending, the troops,
he's acting in the best interest of the troops, he would believe them, but he
didn't. And he kept on. So sadly, I had to go down the defamation route. I
didn't go for damages because I just wanted to have my name cleared.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And it

Deb Wallace:

was. And
we had an undisclosed settlement, , halfway through the trial, and then I got
on with my life. I never ever, , I, I, I mean, I didn't stop listening to it. I
went, I flicked straight over to 2GB, you know, I listened, and I listened to
Mr. Jones, and I never, people said, oh, you must hate, I said, no, I, I, I
hated turning on the radio and stay tuned out at the seven o'clock, I've got
more on that temper wall, you know, , that sense of, I suppose, anxiety for a
minute, like, oh, no, now what?

But. Yeah. , I never took, I never really blamed him. I suppose
the only fault I had of his, he should have checked, he should have checked
with me. He should have asked the question. Would have saved us all a bit of
grief. The people that I know did it, they didn't stay, they weren't at the
command very long after that.

And, , and I know they know, I know. And that's it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
I've got. I've got so many questions for you

Deb Wallace:

probably
for rambling on, but you can edit what you need to. No, it's

Rosie Skene:

fine. I
love it. Um, I think your stories, you're a fantastic storyteller as well.

And I really love that. , I'm going to ask you a little bit
about about you personally. So as I, you know, learn more about your story and
reading your book and doing my research, obviously began to see, , this
beautiful duality, , emerged. So, on one hand, you're this incredible detective
and the commander of, , These squads that are tasked with dismantling, , some
of the most notorious gangs in the state.

But on the other hand, you worked with Father Chris Riley to
create the street school in Cabramatta and practically helping the at risk
youth. You volunteer with Meals on Wheels and closely support the Homicide
Victim Support Group, which you continue to do now. These sides of you, both
fierce and compassionate, seem so different but intertwined by What I think is
a deep sense of service and looking in, it feels like these aspects of your
life might have balanced you in a way.

How have you found that balance between leading intense
operations and serving the community in these more nurturing roles? And do you
think that each of these parts of your life complements the other?

Deb Wallace:

Oh, look, absolutely. I think, um, and to just before I tell you a couple of
stories, how I got involved, I guess I never used to be like that at all.

You know, it was, you know, hard line down, , lock them up.
That's it. Yeah. I've since learned that to keep the balance in the world that
we do as police. That you have to, particularly, , in the gang world that I
worked in, I had to put it in my perspective that they really are, you know,
the bikers call themselves the one percenters, , they decree it, they wear it
like a badge of honour.

They're the ones who operate outside the law. The reality is
they are. The criminal element in our society is probably about one percent. I
don't have the stats, of course, but it's a, , putting in perspective. So for
me to go out and, , not lose faith in humanity and lose faith in what we do,
why we do it is because we do it for the one, the 99%, , of fantastic committee
members out there who are so giving, , doing their daily struggles, the
volunteers, the people who are dealing with chronic illness and, and supporting
people.

That's the, that's who we work for, not for, , if we have to
try to, , get rid of the 1%, then we'll so be it. But it's, it's, it's for the
99%. How did I realize that and, , not to become frustrated at the, the, , one
step forward, two steps back, perhaps. And it was Father Chris was my first
introduction and, , when I was getting a bit frustrated running that little
gang, the gang unit at Cabramatta when Tri Minh Tran, , died, got murdered.

, the senior members of the gang said to me that, , the next
generation will come through like we'll probably know pretty realistic They're
very the Asian gangs are very very savvy understated and said three things
happen to us And we know that that we go to jail because you'll catch us will
get killed because that's the life we've chosen Or maybe we grow up and grow
out if we get if we survive the first two So when I sat down with them , after
Trim and Tran got killed and I was put in charge of this gang unit to, as Paul
said, to deal with that 5T gang and stop the drugs.

Oh, it's a very simple mission statement. There you go. Sounds
easy. Yes, go do that. First thing they said to me was, The reason they became
gang members was that they didn't have opportunity. They came here first
generation refugees and their families were still back in prison camps. So with
lack of education and lack of hope for getting a job and being employed and
having a future, they turned to crime.

They never offered it as an excuse. They offered it as a fact.
So their advice was if to stop the next generation was to engage the upcoming
young gang members who were like 14 or 15 to get an education. And how do I do
that? Because as I said, the two schools would, they were fantastic.
Canleyville High and Cabramatta High.

Well, we'd love to help you, Deb, but these kids have never
gone to school. Like how do we don't have the facilities either. So it was
father Chris, , who came to me and said, I think I can help you with this. I
was like, Oh, father, another day, a quarter that Jesus, you know, here we go.
And it was father Chris who taught me and he taught me, , by running the street
school at Cabramatta.

That, , there is a different way, and that prevention is better
than cure, and of all the, , the ten young upcoming gang members that we work
with on the street there, and then later on down at his farms, not one of them
did a crime. So it did teach me that there is a balance. Prevention is, is way
better than cure, but you've got to have the resources.

At, to put into prevention and programs and all of that first,
if not, of course, law enforcement has to be there and, , and critical to
keeping us safe. But what more importantly, because then I became part of, and
I'm still so proud today to call him one of my best friends, if not my best
friend, is that what he taught me by being involved in his organization,
because I had such faith in him, was that he had this army of volunteers.

These amazing people who raise money, like we had one lady who
ran this cake stall. She actually took out the spare wheel out of her boot to
put in cake racks in the boot of the car so she could pile up the cakes for her
cake stall that she did every Saturday, her and her husband down at Goulburn to
raise money for Father Chris.

They're just one example of an army of hundreds behind Father
Chris. So that taught me about this. This amazing people that I was a bit
blinded to, I suppose, you know, going through the career and, , doing all the
policing stuff. And then I realised that, that balance of life. So that did
continue on then working with, , Grace's Place Homicide Victim Support Group.

And again, those families, , under the, the, the supporting,
you know, Gary and Grace Lynch and Anita Cobby's parents were the founders with
Peter and Christine Simpson, Little Ebony Simpson's parents. And of course, now
there's an army. of families in that organisation. And I get to spend time with
them. And, , I know they're living with that pain every day that they've
emerged from the rubble, but their lives were changed forever, but they're so
positive.

They still want to make, , just, I'm inspired by this strength
and resilience. And yet when I retired, COVID happened and I thought I got to
get out and I can't be locked down here. So I found an essential service up
when I moved out of Sydney. And I went, joined Meals on Wheels and now, , it's
a passion for me as well.

I love being engaged in that and meeting again, although we do
a good community service, it's the volunteers that you have contact with are
these special people that enrich my life every day.

Rosie Skene:

. It's such a beautiful thing to volunteer and to give back in that way. Yeah. So on
this podcast, usually I take people through a little bit of a journey of their
service, and then, um, usually there's a trauma, uh, and then how they've moved
through that.

And then generally on the other side of that, but, , when we
spoke before on the phone, you said that you're lucky enough not to have
suffered any mental illness as part of your job, which is fantastic. Um, but
that doesn't mean that you didn't have those dark times in your career. And
such as the death of, , Detective Bill Crews

and I personally remember that time really clearly because I
was stationed at Inverell, which is close to Bill's hometown of Glen Innes. And
his loss was, like, really deeply felt across the community, and also being in
the police as well, that community. And if you're comfortable, I would love if
you could share what that time, like that day, and then afterwards was like for
you, but also discussing your role as a leader during that difficult time,
supporting your team that had lost a teammate, , one of your officers, Dave
Roberts, who's obviously involved in that investigation.

Um, you're also in touch with Bill's family, but also you had
to manage your own personal emotions. Uh, and I know that we're all human
regardless of whatever rank we hold. And something like that is bound to affect
you. So I'm wondering how you navigated that period and demonstrated the
resilience and leadership that you did as well as looking after yourself.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah,
you're right. It is, um, even, even now, um, obviously it was, probably the
darkest time of, um, my, my, my career, but coming from that, I also had such
of the most amazing experience as well, which I'm happy to share with you. And
I'll just set the context of that. I won't go too much into the actual incident
except, , itself, but I'll talk about that just to put the context around that.

So, um, we had at Middle East, I was at Mid Middle Eastern
Organised Crime the commander there at the time. And, , that model that I love
so much, the uniform, the middle level, which we call our target action group,
and detectives. So you had, we targeted organised crime, street crime, and also
using the disruption of the highway patrol.

The middle unit that I talked about, the target action group,
was a mixture of, , experienced detectives, and also up and coming detectives.
So coming to there and get, you know, Get ready to go move, make the decision
whether they wanted to go on to detectives or go return to uniform. So we had
this mixture and we had a , hard recruiting process to get into that unit.

It was sought after. We had a big waiting list and normally
what would happen, we take them from local area commands. And, , the amazing, ,
inspector in charge of that unit, Mick Ryan, was also had so much experience
in, in organised crime, in gang world, particularly he'd worked with Bobbing
Stewart to help Strikeforce GAIN so a mountain of knowledge and skill.

And he had this rule that he wanted to observe them. in our
uniform section first to see how, you know, do they, are they proactive? Are
they happy to go out and talk to crooks? what's their attitude like? What's
their work ethic like? Et cetera, et cetera. So we've, that's how, that was a
process. People apply to the uniform section.

He, he watches them. We, we give them opportunities to display.
We look at how many, you know, events they've got done, how many interactions
with criminals they've done, et cetera, et cetera. So, and it gets them to tap
them on the shoulder, I suppose, a bit like I was tapped with Graham Rosetta
when I went into detectives, it didn't change.

Have you ever thought about being a detective or coming into
target action with a court tag? So that went on, that was a process, and
suddenly, , a new, people were applying to come in and, , I remember
interviewing with Mick bill was at Campsie at the time. He was in their little
proactive unit, a bit similar to what I ran at Cabramatta when I was there, a
little proactive unit, and Bill's stats were unbelievable.

They were through the roof. He had applied for so many search
warrants, he had led jobs, and yet he had three years in the job. Mick said, We
need to interview this guy and I, and I, and because I want to see if he's as
good as he seems to be on paper. So we did, we interviewed Bill and afterwards
Bill left and Mick just looked at me and said, I'm going to break protocol.

And I'm gonna bring him straight to tag because he's exactly
what we want. And so he did a bill, came in with us and he'd been, had been
there a short time, and, , information came in. Uh, it's a whole lot around
that, which I won't go into because it's all complex, but people would know.
Information came in from an informant, or we call them sources that was in the
field.

He was right in the field with, , an Asian male and giving a
blow by blow description that the Asian male was in possession of a large
amount of drugs and a large amount of cash, that he was the holder of these for
two Middle Eastern groups that couldn't meet because they were enemies. So the
idea was one group would provide the drugs to this Asian male.

The other group would provide the money, he'd do the swap, and
then each would come back and collect their money and their drugs. It was just,
probably a business arrangement. So the information was that this, , Asian male
was a middle aged Asian male, very understated, blah, lived in Bankstown,
blocking in it.

So the cops, they did it. So the question was, we want to do
this warrant and knock it over and take his wallets with the Asian male. He's
probably a lower risk than taking out the two, one of the families. , one of
the crime, Middle Eastern crime groups. So the risk assessment was done by, ,
Mick and his team, Dave Roberts, , at the time was an acting sergeant and he
was leading this group with Bill and his team.

And so they do all their work in the afternoon, risk
assessments, , spoke to people who lived in the unit, spoke to a cop who even
lived in a unit, , did as much research on the, on the Asian males as you
could, blah, blah, blah. So the decision was, do we do it at night or do we do
it more normally? All our search crimes are done at 6 a.

m. For the element of surprise, everyone's a bit tired, they're
all in bed, et cetera. But the drugs weren't going to be there for very long.
They're going to be there that night. So the decision had to be made was, do we
do it tonight? At the time, based on what we knew, the decision through Mick
and through me was it's a viable operation to do tonight.

We had some uniformed police there with us or with them, et
cetera, et cetera. What I've learned is I will never say to anybody again. This
was a routine search warrant. No deployment from any cop to any case is
routine. You cannot risk assess the unknowns. The unknowns on this job, which
we found out later, were that he, apparently, the offender, the Asian male, had
been ripped off by people pretending to be police the day before.

They'd been robbed, so he was, a sense of vigilance was up, I
guess. Um, whether that's true, who would know? That's what he said. And also,
um, that he'd been smoking heroin. So he was, again, unknown, unknown to the
source. The informant who was right there till about two minutes before the
search warrant, before he was pulled out by the team, had gave nothing of that
and certainly had said there was no gun.

So, So they do a search warrant, they approach the premises,
half the team are going to the block, the unit itself, and the other team with
Dave Roberts and Bill are going to secure the car park where the drugs were
allegedly kept in an underground car park, car park, like garage. So they
approach the premises, they announce their office, they say, it's recorded on
tape because all our search warrants have to be recorded, so a uniformed
officer is recording it.

And they say, police search, that's all they get out. Before
the Asian male comes out fires at the police, shoots, my understanding, and I
wasn't there, but from the evidence and what I understand, shoots Bill in his
body, but not fatally shot and Bill so bravely drops the equipment he's
holding, pulls out his gun from his wrong hand and returns fire.

Meanwhile, Dave Roberts, who's either just behind Bill or not,
and again, I wasn't there, won't ever know the circumstances. He also returns
fire and. His shot is the fatal shot. Uh, so Bill drops Robbo, then what
unfolds. Now all of that scenario of the time they announce their office, they
arrive and they deploy just over two, just over two seconds.

So, you know, the speed of that is unimaginable and the tragedy
that unfolds after that. So circumstances go on. And of course, , there's a
whole team now there, Bill's there and Robbo's there. Then of course,
obviously, , they ascertained that Bill was pretty well, from what the medical
examiner said later on, , deceased immediately.

And, , then of course, we retreat for, I retreat tightly for
they're all not informed at this stage. And, uh, I don't know that's happened
because I know they're deploying that night and waiting for the phone call.
And. That's now the, once an incident like that happens, in comes the critical
incident team, which is fantastic.

The homicide squad come in and they are totally independent and
they review all of our actions, right up to mine, Dave's, Mick's, you know,
what happened. So, rightly so, they have to now seek the truth of this. So
that's, that's fine. That has that goes into play. That's sitting over the top.
Meanwhile, I I'm at home and I get a knock on the door at about 10 o'clock.

And it's my fantastic high, one of my highway guys, , Brian
Hughes. And I mentioned his name because I think it's important to give
recognised, , because he's one of the lights that would come from this. Brian
Hughes answers, knocks on my door, which is really unusual because I answer it
with some temptation, like 10 o'clock, he's knocking on my door and it's, he
says, it's Hughesy, Deb, open the door.

And he says to me, Deb, you've got to come, it's, it's Crewsy
and I said, what's happened? Is it bad? He said, it's as bad as it can get. And
I knew then, you know, so without knowing any of the circumstances, it's not
appropriate. I know the circumstances at that stage, because I'm now involved
in the investigation.

I'm an involved officer. I have to be totally, you know, for
the total transparency, not be informed of what's happening next. And, so I can
give, you I'm allowed to know enough to be able to give comfort or give empathy
or what I need to do to my troops. I'm, of course, know the circumstances, but
not know the intricate details, I suppose, even though I knew them from my
orders, et cetera.

So he takes me to Bankstown police station where the team is.
And I remember being mindful that I can't talk to Dave about it. Dave's,
they're isolated, protocol is have to be isolated, their guns taken from them,
a whole lot of things have to go into play. Absolutely. They're aware of this,
but of course you also have to balance the fact that now I'm a, I'm a, I'm an
involved officer perhaps in this inquiry.

And also I'm their lead, I'm their commander.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

So I'm
very mindful of not, Not in any way contaminated, but yet being able to give
enough support to them that I can. So I immediately go in to see Dave, who's
just shattered to see that's an understatement. Of course, words can't
describe, but he's just looked up and he said, Deb, I think I killed him.

And I said, look, can't speculate. We don't know until
everything comes through Dave. You have to just, we have to worry, but just the
process will take its place. And I suppose that that hopelessness at that time,
because I couldn't say. Any words, you know, I know how you feel or it'll be
okay. I couldn't say that.

So I needed to be able to keep him as much comfort as I could
without, you know, contaminating anything. so we managed to get through that
and they all did what had to be done. They're all interviewed, et cetera, et
cetera. Um, just, you know, to say that that team was, you know, you could
never look at those eyes and never see that again.

. And as a commander, you go through your career, hoping a, you
never, you want to, you command one of your staff, never have to shoot anybody
and take a life. And you also hope that no one ever gets shot and killed on
your watch. And we had both. So I really was going into this uncharted
territory about how to balance, , everything's happening.

, you can imagine the media, my bosses are there and all of
this stuff's going on. So that's okay. We get through all that. And I go back
to my office at Hurstville. And all the staff that can are getting interviewed,
that has to be done freshly while it's in their mind, etc, and separated and
all that.

So I go back to my office at Middle, at Hurstville, there's
nothing I can do at Bankstown, I don't want to be there, they need to, they're
in the safe hands of, , the homicide squad, and I go back to my office. And I'm
waiting there and one by one, they're, they're finished their interviews and
we're getting them home.

And Hughsy, my highway, fantastic guy is him and his colleagues
are driving them all home and getting them a meal and making sure they're okay.
And , he does that right through the night and about 5. 00 AM. I'm sitting in
my office all alone. I just think, because in the day, the day crew is going to
come in all the, all the detectives and all the uniform that weren't in this
operation.

It was only, nine involved in this operation. So I've got all
the rest coming in. It's going to be on the news, the speculation, what's going
to happen. And of course, what added to it, when, when the homicide squad and
the investigators opened, did a search of the actual garage where the, owned by
the Asian male.

All this. A number of Asian Middle East males in there who go,
well, there's a couple of guns in here and we're going to have gunshot residue
on our hands because we did a couple of drive by shootings as you do on the way
here to collect our drugs. They actually got there and stayed in the garage
while the, while the firefights happening.

Yeah. Didn't come out, thankfully. So they're all sitting there
like, Oh, hello, with our hands up. It wasn't us. But they were charged with
firearm offenses. So, you know, what you've got is this dribbling of
information. Um, there was a shooting. Bill's dead. , the team were involved.
The Asian males were arrested at the scene.

They've been charged with firearm offenses. So you can imagine,
everyone's going, Oh, it must have been them without knowing the facts.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

I
suppose the first bit of, , amazing leadership I saw there, not from me, but
from, and again, there is this, you have to grab onto anything positive you can
in these darkest moments.

And Hughsy comes into my office and he's just sitting there and
he looked terrible, he'd been up, he'd been going all day, he'd come and got
me, he was taking all the troops home, he's obviously dealing with each and
every one, and, , the last were about to be, , arriving back at Middle East and
I said, hey mate, do you want to go, it's, it's getting on to five o'clock.

And he looked at me and he said, I'm going nowhere. He said, I
will go nowhere till the last of those troops are home. And I get, I sort of
say this because, , what happened to Hughsy. later, I guess, is I looked into
those eyes and he was true. And I'm so sorry about that. I lost, I lost Hughsy
he developed melanoma and it went to his brain and his battle was so amazing
what he did through that.

He'd come to work. He'd had radiation in the morning. He's
burnt like a barbecue chuck because it went to his brain, the melanoma spread
to his brain. And, , and I remember he, I'm diverse a bit, but I mean, just a
bit story on Hughsy. He goes in, he went into St. George hospital, have some
of the, see if I can get some of this brain, the brain surgery.

And he's, he's, there it is. No pain or anything at this stage,
he's going in and he's, and I, and I, he says, I need a two litre bottle of
coke. He loved coke. He said, I can't get a two litre bottle. Can you bring it
down, diet coke? Because he used to always have it in the highway car. So I
said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll bring it down.

So we go down, and we're, we're, he's about to get wheeled in
for, um, um, And he says, uh, and he's light hearted, he's joking as, as, you
know, as he's his way. And he said, Oh, doc. Um, and I said, and I said to the
doctor, you're going to have a challenge. And he said, Oh yes, it's, it will be
right. It's, it's challenging.

It brain surgery is, but we'll be right. I said, no, no. You're
probably going to be a sexual challenge, but just remember Hughsy's Highway
Patrol, and his brain's a little, little smaller than most, and Hughsy's just
looked at me. And as quick as a light, he says, but there's hope doc, if
something does go wrong, and you do take a bit too much of my brain, I can
always come back as a detective.

And that was Hughsy. And, , I remember when I was leaving from
Middle Eastern to go to gangs and wrote that down. And they put on a morning
tea for me at Middle East and a day and Tuesday was pretty bad by now. He's on
a walker. He could barely talk. Um, radiation had taken its toll. It was now
we'd had the word that there was no more they could do.

So he basically was terminal and he's turned up and he's, you
know, he's struggling. It's really struggling. He's on his walker. And I said,
Hughsy, why are you here? You didn't have to come out because he lived down
Campbelltown way. And he's come to her spot. I said, Hughsy why you didn't
have to come. And he looked at me and he said, boss, I'm here on your last day.

Because you're going to be there online and I thought, you
know, and we were, we made sure we were. So, um, yeah, so special moments and
I'm sorry about that, but I just, you know, when I think of him, he's just such
a special individual. So, um, yeah. So back to the incident, so he's done that,
he's got them all home and then it come the other, the morning crew and a great
support.

I can't fault, , great support I had from Dave Hudson and Nick
Kaldas , during that, and Dave was very, very strong in the media announcement
the next day about um, you know, very strong, he gave a lot of information out
that, that, , one could say would, you know, and I thought very brave of him.
He certainly made some, some comments and some statements that, uh, I think
were, were certainly appropriate, never criticized for it because they were
appropriate.

, and Nick Kaldas was equally as strong as well. They were,
they were who our direct reports for. I suppose the next thing was I had all
the, all the staff arriving so I had to be able to tell them as much as much as
I, I could. Without stepping on to the investigation. So that was, again, I had
to manoeuvre that.

So I gathered all the whole, the whole staff there. And
interestingly, uh, the, uh, the, some of the, let's just say, I had amazing
detectives, but amongst the, the, the, the pearls, you do get a few rocks, I
guess, and a couple of them that thought they were bigger than they were. Uh,
you know, you're not the hardest workers in the, in the unit, you know, perhaps
they'd probably, their arrest rate was probably the lowest.

They didn't have as much performance. I guess they weren't bad
performers. They just weren't high achievers, I guess. And they were there. One
in particular made a particular. noise about, you know, we're trying to deal
with this in some perspective. And he challenged me and I said, look, I can't
say much what's happened.

You, you know, I don't want to contaminate it, but let's just
say, and then I said, with raw, raw facts of what's happened. And then one of
them says, right, we're going down to Burwood Court because that's where the
Middle Eastern males are appearing. And we're going there as a show of force,
like, you know, we're going at a storm.

And I've gone, whoa, whoa, whoa. I, I do know that the Middle
Easterns at my, my information, I weren't involved in the shooting incident. So
they're going there on firearms charges. , I think at the moment we just take a
deep breath. We do not, and this guy didn't even know Bill, Bill only been with
us three weeks, didn't even know Bill, but wanted to, you know, that typical
chest beater type.

Yeah.

Anyway, I'm saying, Oh, look, I don't think that's a good idea.
Look, let's just regroup. Let's just, you know, and then he's saying to me, are
you directing me?

And I'm going, Oh, God, do I have

to be directing me not to go? And at that point, Adam, one of
my fantastic detective sergeants who I've worked with, he was at Liverpool, I
was at Cabra

fantastic. Brad Abdi. And he did a physical thing, which was,
you know, he didn't know whether I'd object to it or not. He just stepped
slightly in front of me, just slightly in front of me. And he was like everyone
knew Brad's, he was a high, high achiever. He stepped just slightly in front of
me, not blocked me out, just, just enough to show that he had my back just in
front of me.

And he said, We're not going anywhere. We're not going down to
Burwood Court like a bunch of vigilantes. What we're going to do, we're going
to activate as much of our information as we can and our intelligence out there
on the field. And we're going to go out and do as many search warrants as we
can today to get as many guns off the street as we can today to show the
respect we have for Bill because that's what Bill would be doing.

And so he went across and Brad and his team went out and did
six high risk search warrants that afternoon after all of this and got about 15
guns off the street.

Rosie Skene:

Wow. So

Deb Wallace:

amazing
sense of leadership. You know, that's, that's what, and he not, and he said to
me, I hope you don't mind. And I said, do I not mind?

Thank you. And that's, you know, to me, there's that other
little bit of leadership that came out. I think, and I think it went on
further. So brave of the family, um, is they then had a, um, before the
funeral, the funeral was being planned and the family put on at Emu, I think it
was Emu Plains, no it was Penrith, a, not call it a wake, but a gathering of
his family, of, of family and his, his colleagues and what made it worse was
Ben, his brother worked at Bankstown in the command that it happened.

So you can imagine what he's going through. And they put on
this, um, uh, afternoon with afternoon tea and, and Kel, uh, reached out, Kel
Crews he was an ex cop himself, reached out and said, , there's an invitation
for the tag middle for obviously for Middle Eastern to come. And, um, you know,
it's a matter for yourself, but certainly you'd be most welcome.

And also the tag unit. Now, some of those wanted to go, some of
them didn't want to go. It was that thing. Dave Roberts was now, had been told
formally, officially that it was his. , it was his, it was the fatal shot. So
he's now, that was the, this is the Sunday that was a Friday. He was told by, ,
as compassionately as possible as we could.

So he's in a state of devastation as you can imagine.

Yeah.

He doesn't know whether to attend or not. So he's reading and
says, I'm going to come out there. I'll make a decision when I get there. So
it's your call. It's your call. So, um, Kel and, , reached out and said, look,
it doesn't have to go to where all they all are.

You know, you know, it looked like hundreds were there. We're
like, you know, an ante room, like a green room for one of the Rooters
gathering there with the family. Feel free. to bring them there if they feel
more comfortable. So the team that did go, including Dave, went into this room
where the family, , were, Kel and the family and Ben, you know, a bit of a
blur, but they were all there and they You know, it was very emotional, to say
the least.

We then were moving into where all the troops were. You know,
the other, all colleagues, and all I can remember was the hubbub, there was
noise, and there was, you know. Soon as the family walked in, followed by the
MEOCS crew that wanted to be there, including Dave, This sort of really
uncomfortable hush went in the room outta respect.

No doubt what you know, people are very uncomfortable, aren't
they? In what they say in Yes. And the, the, the room dropped. So you can
imagine. Now where do we go next? I obviously wasn't this, this, you know, Kel
and everyone had organised this. So this is not my role. This obviously there
is my part of the MEOCS team.

Team. And Kel did something amazing at that stage. He reached
forward and said, we're all here to celebrate the life of Bill. And to remember
him, you know, as much as you can, you know, and he put his arm around Dave, I
guess, as a way to say, don't judge him because I'm not. And, Then the hubbub
rose and then went on and great stories were told about Bill but a great, you
know, for me, amazing, compassion at that.

And it went on and we went through years of work cover
inquiries, as you understand, court cases, because the guy was charged
originally with murder, but was dropped to manslaughter and then went on with
that. , and then in coroner's inquests, of course, to get to, um. So looking at
the circumstances of the investigation, blah, all of that, as everyone would
know, has occurred.

Went on for years. Dave, , we got Dave back, , as much as the
team, some of the team didn't come back. Some did. When is that a thing about
that? Where do you go for advice? There is no playbook. I spoke to some dear
colleagues, um, at Holsworthy. We did, I did a fair bit of work with, um, the
specialist units out at Holsworthy of the people returning to country from
being over in Afghanistan.

So. And the advice I got in who faced this, you know, friendly
fire and tragic loss of colleagues was the advice I got was, um, let them be in
control. Let those involved be in control. Let them make the decisions. Some
may not want to be at work. Some may need to be at work. Some may need
counselling. Some may not need counselling.

Let them have control though. Let them have control. Don't
impose what you think they need. Let them decide. And I thought that was
really, really important. So we got a lot back. Um, Certainly, um, Dave came
back, not to MEOCS, but to other areas and was very productive. Um, he hit
the wall a couple of times and, you know, said, you know, it's like a broken
leg, Dave.

If you get a broken leg, you've got to go to physio every so
often. Um, he hit the wall and we made sure we got him the, the, we got him
into some, some fantastic programs designed for the military who deal with this
stuff, you know, in shooting incidents of friendly fire and all that sort of
stuff. And um, he was going pretty good as he could.

He said, you know, he said, there's not a day goes by that I'm,
I don't look in that mirror and say, I killed my friend. The only advice I
could give, which was really probably not very good. I just said to him, like,
look, someone asked me, how are you dealing with it? I said, well, I made the
decision that I can't dwell in it or dwell on it because that's justice to
Bill.

He deserves better. He deserves to be released from that place
of sorrow. He deserves to to be released into a place of memories of all that
he was. Not that he not that incident. So I didn't lock myself into that. That
was for me. Whether that works for anyone else, that's that's their journey.
Dave, um, went out and, , he was doing boxing as he tended to do, and he was
taking on young people at a PCYC, training them in boxing as Dave loved to help
young people.

And I remember he said to me, Oh, he, one of them got me right
under the rib step. He said, I think he, he's bloody knocked my rib around, I
reckon he's broken my rib. So he went and got checked out for broken ribs and
bruising, and it turned out to be cancer. He had. , Um, non Hodgkin's lymphoma.
He, uh, it was pretty aggressive from the beginning.

It didn't, it went to stage four fairly quickly. And I remember
that he was, there was no treatment really available anymore. And there was
some sort of experimental stuff happening in Melbourne. And his family wanted
Dave to go and, and do that. And it was very, very expensive, hundreds of
thousands of dollars.

And he said, no, I'm not going to do it. Because. I don't want
to take away what money I've left for my super. That's for the family. I don't
want to waste it on something that I don't think is going to work. It was
pretty bad at that stage. Travelling was going to be an issue, um, as well. I
think he was facing a fair bit of reality at that stage.

But as understandably, he didn't want to say that to the
family. There's a life, there's hope. And being out here with young children
and, you know, Dave was only 48. About to turn 49. So he, he didn't want to
give up hope for them and they didn't want to give up hope. And they said, no,
dad, we don't need the money.

We want you. We need you dad. So a decision was made to set up
a GoFundMe page to maybe, so we didn't have to use his super. And I got a call
from Ben Crews and typical Ben. He said, I just want you to know that I've
donated onto the page. And if you could just let Dave know, you know,

and I thought, I went and told Dave and I said, uh, you know
who one of the first donated and he went, Oh, I just can't believe the
generosity of people.

I said, it was Ben and he broke down, you know, and just said,
sorry for being a bit teary eyed.

Rosie Skene:

I

Deb Wallace:

think it's Dave. And the combination, and I think Dave's last hours, and you know,
and he died the next day was, um, he died knowing that he, Ben had never not
forgiven him. And that was huge to Dave's final days.

Yeah. So, sorry about that. I still, I, you know, I'm, I'm.
Normally, I'm not a real teary person, but I think looking back at that, so I
saw out of that tragedy, I saw this amazing strength of humanity.

Yeah.

There we go.

There we go.

Yeah. Sorry about that. I, I don't you know, sorry about that.
, Rosie forgetting.

Rosie Skene:

I think
that's beautiful. I'm very expected. That's, um, I can't even imagine how that

Deb Wallace:

it's not
to be at a, it's not about me. It's not what I went through. It was what, know,
those like Ben was just, and what he did, I think, I think what he did for Dave
was above and beyond, not the money, not the fact of the matter, but I was able
to let Dave have some absolute peace.

Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Can you, I couldn't even imagine what he went through with that and the family
and all the things that would have run through his mind over those years as
well. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been terrible. So

Deb Wallace:

often
you look back and you can say this, you know, I suppose we look back in
hindsight, you wonder how much distress have on this, the physical response to
a body as well, that fight or flight.

Thing as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. There's, yeah. Oh, there's so many effects of the stress on the
body. , I'm going to talk to you about Strike Force Raptor, and that's pretty
much going to be, um, a little bit of, that's about it for the. Actual, you
know, work side of things. And then I'll talk about a little bit more about you
and how you are with people. Um, so your work in taking on organised crime and
tearing down bikie clubhouses and is legendary, , and earned you the title of
the gang buster.

When you were appointed commander of Strike Force Raptor, you
led your team to disrupt, dismantle and disable outlaw motorcycle gangs in New
South Wales. And it drew international recognition. I'd love if you could walk
us through your time leading Raptor, , the style of policing that you used that
was so successful, , and how the work that you and your team did came to be
acknowledged worldwide.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah,
look, I think, , I have to acknowledge, of course, Raptor was set up in 2009.
Yes. You at the airport, and, , they sort of modelled it loosely off the MEOCS
model that had been so successful that I was working in. So, um, when there was
again, a change of superintendents around, it was, , Nick Kaldas was one of my
strongest supporters in supporting me to go to, , Raptor, which was a similar
model, a little bit of tweaking.

We, I had the highway patrol at Raptor, but we also had a
tactical unit, which we didn't have at Middle East, and we had a more of a
uniform component. It's a little bit different, but. Much the same. Very
similar. So I had those three tears. , Detectives. , tactical unit and however
to, to, to implement the style.

So I arrived, , in January of 2014. Has been long established
and Raptor basically was being, although it fell under the gang squad. So
superintendent of the gang squad had total, had the gang squad, which was, ,
doing organised crime. , mainly bikies, but that whole organised crime high
level. And you had Raptor doing that disruptive proactive.

, high impact policing. So it's sort of two units under one
superintendent. So, um, each of those units have inspectors managing the day to
day business. And I, at Raptor, we had two amazing super, , inspectors already
there. Darren Beachy running the tactical, Highway Patrol, and, , Dave Adney
running the detectives and they worked as a partnership.

So two, , who had been set the groundwork, they'd set this up
brilliantly and high achieving. So I arrive and the first thing you can
imagine, anyone thinks new commanders coming in, it's, it's probably, we all go
out, I've done it myself. Oh no, what am I going to change? What am I going to
do? And I get a, what, you know, and so I think they're a little bit, Thinking,
you know, we don't, they didn't know me, they knew of me, but didn't know me.

And I think what's, what's, what's her style. So I got them all
together, , on the first day to meet everybody. And the first thing, and that
was both units, both teams, like the detectives. Gangs and Raptor. And I could
see Dave in particular. Dave was very, I met Darren because, , Darren was best
mates of Dave Roberts.

So I'd met Darren, , it's in like, um, sad circumstances , with
the passing of Dave, but he was his best mate. So I just have, I knew Darren
and he knew me from that time. What my personality was like through that
period, I guess we've been, you know, to hospital, see Dave together, et
cetera. So he sort of had a bit of an idea of my personality.

Dave had no idea he was getting blindsided. He's very much. I
say this with absolute affection. He's a bit of an alpha male, David. He's a,
he's a, he's one of the most brilliant operators I've ever had the privilege to
work with. And so, but a bit cautious, you know, you could see that wall up,
you know, what's she got, what's she going to say here?

And I said. Look, I've come into here and I'm looking around at
these and some of the inspectors were my sergeants back at Blacktown when I was
a constable, you know, and, and I had these in, in the gangs, Wayne Hayes,
Dennis Bray, who were the most brilliant homicide investigators who were
legendary. And now I'm, I'm working with them.

I've got Dave Adney and Darren Beachy. So the first thing I
said was. My style's a little different, as you can imagine. I'm now wearing
probably, I don't think I was wearing a bright pink pantsuit or whatever. And
first thing I do is, I don't come in and do change for change's sake. My job
here is to advocate for you, , get what you need, but to listen and learn from
you, because you are the experts.

You know, I'm pretty good at Asian, and I've learned about
Middle Eastern crime, but bikies is Gangs, are gangs the same? Possibly. Or are
they different? I need to learn. And what better teachers do I have except all
of you? So I think that, and that was true. That wasn't said, you know, that's
just, you know, getting them on side.

That was true. That was absolutely true. So, uh, particularly,
, using my experts with Dave and, and Darren and All Ranks, All Ranks at
Raptor, some amazing people there. I needed, I said, I need you to tell me
about them. Tell me about them. What makes them think? What's their business
model? Why do they wear, you know, most organised crime groups that I've used
to try to stay under the radar, particularly the Asian groups, and these guys
are wearing, , fancy dress outfits with their name on them and self declaring,
yeah, wear a Bikie wear a criminal, you know, and all this stuff.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

I'd look
at a history of bikies, where did it start from in America and all that stuff.
How the, how the face of outlaw motorcycle gangs have changed from being about
brotherhood to being about gangs and about intimidation, drugs and money and
greed and all of that. So I learned all about that. And then we come up with a
plan.

It was we were, you know, let's that, or let's build on what
you've already done. Let's come up with a, a menu for want of a better word, or
how we take out everything they hold dear. Going right down to traffic lines,
to right up to, you know, million dollar mansions through the taxation
department, that's, and again I'm making it sound simple because it's a long
story itself, but I'm just giving the overview of how we did it.

, so we have this treatment options of about 35 different
treatment options. And we looked at the problem at the time, whether they're a
rural gang, whether they were doing extortions, whether they were running a
drug territory, whether they were doing an importation. And then we'd apply
these menus items to it.

And so it might be as simply as, , using the consortium
legislation to stop national biking runs. So hence in 2014. , we had the
consortium legislation, which stopped from then on. There was no national runs
held in New South Wales, , because wherever they might think they're going to
have one, Raptor would be there.

, we did traffic fines, you know, they can't ride a bike to do
a drive by, or a car, they don't ride bikes very often. Um, you know, get their
BMW without a driver's license. Uh, they'd fortify their premises against, ,
drive by shootings. So they, we'd go to councils and see that they have
approval. We dismantled their clubhouses through some old legislation from
1943.

, so all of these things were menu items. So very, they thought
tactically smart, strategically smart and the tactics deployed it brilliantly
to the point that there was, things like we had them on the run. The senior
leadership went offshore. There was no national runs. There was only two
clubhouses left in New South.

So the tangible amounts there could be measured. as well as,
those positive media responses. , no feud. So, so over a period of those years,
we were able to do it to the point that in 2019, just, and, and using, , not
keeping our information to ourselves, sharing it with our colleagues all around
Australia at an operational level, which was very, very important.

So they said, we love the consorting legislation. So South
Australia said, we'll take that one. And I said, Oh, I love your firearms
prohibition orders. I will take those. We went over to England that wouldn't go
there, but we got their legislation from serious crime prevention orders. Oh,
let's get that one.

So we were very much a, a, a partnership, uh, you know, no
barriers. They, bikies didn't have barriers, so we had no barriers. And we were
very, , mindful to work in this collaboration with all of our partner agencies,
particularly the taxation department and the immigration department and
Centrelink were fantastic as well.

So we worked as a partnership. So that is how. We were able to
do it through, , brilliant work on the ground from the troops, brilliant ideas
from Dave and Darren, and brilliant collaboration, Australia and New Zealand
included. And then I got in, but we went over in 2019, , to this international
law enforcement conference targeting outlaw motorcycle gangs worldwide.

And two of the Raptor guys, , Nathan Truman and, , uh, this
fantastic guy, Broady who were basically dismantling all the drughouses they
were running the tactical team and they were asked to present on the
dismantling, all those things I just spoke about. And little did we know that
not only were they presenting, which was great, because there was a team of us
went over to support them and also, you know, see what we can learn worldwide.

And, , lo and behold, Raptor got the international , excellence
award for the approach in, , taking down bikies in the world. So what a proud
commander was I to not only represent these amazing cops doing this
presentation over there, but to come back, , to have a trophy, , recognising
into the world, into world law enforcement group.

Recognise the work of Raptor here in New South Wales. Yeah.
Very high achievement from, from that team. Absolutely. But you want the best
bit. When I was, yes. Always . When I was packing up my office, I was alone. I,
I, I passed out the academy. Uh, I was on my own control, my own day. Fully fit
mentally and physically.

And I marched out of the parade, um, ground after a passing out
parade on the 13th of December, 2019, and went back to my office. to finish
packing up my suitcase of items that I wanted to keep and discarding those that
I didn't want to keep. So, um, after 36 years, I walked out with one suitcase,
um, into the car park and dropped the car.

Cause I was working right up to midnight that night. So I still
get, there's, we're still sending orders through for approval as well, but so,
so, but, but I walked out with my suitcase, but as I'm packing up, I went, Oh,
I'll take that. There was a nice, Someone to give me and this and this. And
there's the Raptor trophy on my cabinet.

You know, two Raptor, not to me, two Raptor, but I went, Oh,
that's going in the suitcase. So I put it in the suitcase and I have it here at
home and I sent it to them. You can retrieve it upon my demise, whatever they
want to put into that. So I have, have it loud and proud here. And I said, the
reason I'm keeping it, if you ever want to look at it, you've got to come and
have coffee with me.

Yeah. So I kept it probably very selfishly. I'll now probably
get a phone call. Hey, that's,

Rosie Skene:

we were
wondering where that went. Yeah. How awesome though, to do all that work and,
and be recognised for it. , it must've been incredibly satisfying for you guys
to, to, , have all the bikies on the ground, pull out all their stuff after all
the work that you did to, to get some really good results, I think that would
have been really cool.

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

, There's a beautiful Maya Angelou quote. And it really, when I
think about you, I think about this. And the quote is, I've learned that people
will forget what you said, people will forget what you did. They probably will
not forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

And I had the privilege of hearing you speak, um, to a group of
female police officers in Walgett for the 100 Years of Women in Policing. While
I can't remember every detail of what you spoke about, I can distinctly
remember how I felt afterwards and even during. Like I was empowered and I felt
lighter but uplifted as well.

Um, and it was a feeling I'd never felt before. It was super
foreign to me. And I know that I'm not the only person that you've impacted in
this way in your book, Darren Beach says that she had a way about her so that
when she said hello to you, it was the best thing that happened to you that
day. And I'm so curious, is this something, this ability that you make people
feel that way, something that you've consciously developed as part of your
leadership style, or do you think it's just a natural part of who you are?

And how do you maintain that brightness and positivity even
when you. You were leading those intense squads like MEOCS and, and gangs.

Deb Wallace:

Uh, I
think, I think it's part of who I was. I think I was brought up with that
positive attitude. Like, you know, there's always someone worse off than you,
so get over yourself and get on with it.

Yeah. So that, that I think is in, in building me, um, as well.
Plus I think, uh, dealing with positive people, surrounding myself with
positive people, with the volunteer staff, put that in perspective. So I think
that added to that as well, keeping that life balance, I think it's really
important. Thank you. And, um, I think like you said, so yeah, so it's not
anything deliberate because I'm flying by the seat of my pants sometimes on,
you know, you know, about what's the right thing to say and how do you say it
and I think I just, I learned that.

Just be true to who you are. Don't try to change yourself. You
can't do it. You know, if you try to be something you're not, people will pick
it and then that's what they'll remember. Oh yeah. That's that's, you know, I
don't do cliches. I don't do, I don't say I'm probably politically correct a
lot at times and probably embarrass people when I say things, um, and things I
do should probably think about what Frank said to me and think before I speak.

Um, so I do tend to blurt out, but I, most important for me. is
to treat people how I would want to be treated. And I was so lucky to be
exposed to people. I saw the good and the bad. So I said, that's who I want to
be. That's not who I want to be. And I just took that. So I'm just mindful
about if I was in this situation, How would I want to be spoken to?

How would I want to be treated? All of that. So I think that's
just a thing, but I think over the years and I, and I say now, probably when I
was at Walgett with you I probably would have, I'd certainly have learned a lot
since then. And if I was to sum up, and these days I say to people there's four
phrases that I wish I hadn't known Early in my career that I've had to do
through the life experience of that journey and beyond dealing with my life
beyond that, I guess, is, um, there's four phrases that I always say now I keep
in mind.

And the first thing I say is never to be frightened to say, I'm
sorry. I'm never frightened to say I was wrong. I'm never frightened to say I
need help. And I'm never frightened to say, I don't know. So that I think that,
and I look back and I think even though I've learned those phrases in my mind
since.

about what I apply to situations. I think in a way I had them
from the beginning. You'd always done it anyway.

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
You do. You are so genuine in the experiences that I've had with you. And I
think like you say, people know when you're not.

Deb Wallace:

Um,

Rosie Skene:

and I
think that's why I feel so, so great when I speak to you and what Darren says,
you know, it's the best thing that happens to you that day is when you say good
day and have a bit of a chat.

That's so true. I think it's, you might say signing the
overtime forms is pretty good. Hello, sign these. Especially on that last day,
did he pump a heap of overtime forms through?

Deb Wallace:

Well, it
was funny because there's nothing more excellent than X and um, typical Daz and
his team were doing, want to do search warrants.

That night. And so I'm technically still the commander until
midnight. I can't devolve myself of that role until midnight, um, that night
when I'm technically now I'm not a cop anymore. And um, he was sending through
some orders for some firearms permission order search was the next day. And he
sent it through and I had to ring him and say, Daz

I can't approve them. He said, why? I said, it's 5 past 12,
I've just been cut off. Everything dropped. My, all my access to every police
system, my phone got cut off. So I learned very quickly that the really, that
moment in time, there's really no more X than an X. And,

and I think that's a message that for people that, um, I loved
every moment of being in the cops.

I loved every moment. Even on that darkest day with Bill, I
still wanted to go into that, into work. I never questioned what I wanted to
do. I carried that right through to that last day on the 13th of December 2019.
But it didn't define who I was. I didn't let it define and, and I remember it,
I could just share with you being this die hard, ill supporter.

I was lucky enough to be, , have to meet, uh, meet Wayne
Bennett when he was just a part of a, I was, I was just part of a leadership
program and he gave, he was given access to, we were given access to him, I
guess, a small group of us. And he was just going from Brisbane to St. George
and he was, he was very open.

You can ask anything, you know. I hope I'm not giving up any
confidence now, but it was really impactful for me of what he said. A question
was asked of him about what happens if you go to St. George and you don't win,
, you fail for whatever reason, how do, how do you deal with that? And he just
simply looked as he is a man of few words.

, but he said. That, that I'm not defined by being a coach. He
said, I'm a father first, I'm a farmer second, and I'm a football coach third.

So if the third falls over, I've got the other two. And I
thought that was very wise. And I think that's in a way I've kept that going as
in I've never given up on being involved in raising, you know, working with the
event crew to raise money for a Grace's place. And, , being with father Chris,
, as a part of personal level, doing my volunteer stuff. So I think that's what
was quite important.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And I think for a lot of police that leave that don't have those things outside
of work. That's where they can really struggle. And veterans as well. I had a
veteran on a couple of weeks ago, Jye who works for Invictus Australia. And he
was saying that when he, his discharge date came through.

He'd already made the decision to go and study, so that
transition wasn't as harsh for him. Yes. He already had something else and he
sees that through his work with veterans that the ones that don't have
something, some sort of purpose, could be anything, um, are the ones that
really do struggle. A

Deb Wallace:

hundred
percent.

That's such good advice from him. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Have
something else there. You know, it's not because it could fall. Anything can
happen. You know, you just reach that. But the cops that aren't, you know, as
lucky as me get that bucket full, it fills up, fills up. What do I do now?
That's it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah.

It's a bit of a slap in the face actually, when that happens
and it's unexpected.

Something I want to talk to you about is a bit of a trailblazer
for women in police and the significant change that I wasn't even aware of was
a very subtle thing that you did and you remove the F that was in brackets,
registered number to indicate that you are a female. And so I guess I have that
you to thank for me, not even knowing that that was a thing.

Um, And you're well known for your colourful pantsuits and
being unapologetically female. What do you think has been your biggest impact
on female policing in New South Wales? And do you, what do you think that your
approach will influence the future female of law enforcement?

Deb Wallace:

Look, I
think for me, it's don't necessarily equate Promotion or rank with leadership.

And I'm not saying we haven't got good leaders in good ranks.
Don't get me wrong. That's not what I'm saying. Cause that, that could happen
as well, but it's about being a leader at all levels being that everyone
should, should influence in a positive way at all levels. Don't leave it to
say, well, what can I do?

Because you know, I've got a, I haven't got the power because
I'm not a superintendent, I'm not a commissioner or whatever you have power.
It's how you choose to use it. And I think you're right. You said about getting
that F removed. I mean, I'd been in the cops literally. Three months when I
questioned that whole thing and not because I was being cheeky while I was
probably been a bit cheeky, but I didn't get the rationale about why we were
clearly women, why we're putting F and, and they didn't get it was, you know,
that old thing about, , well, we've always done it that way.

Yeah. Sometimes if something's obviously wrong, maybe challenge
that. So I think, I think it would be going way back if I could say to the
women in the job, um, as Joan said to me. Be true to who you are. Look yourself
in the mirror. That's all, that's the only person you have to answer to. Is
yourself. And, and treat everybody as the way you want to be treated.

I think that's, it's not rocket science. I think it's just, uh,
but I would, you know, what a small lesson I learned. It was a fantastic girl I
met, um, when I was over at her school with Middle Eastern. And she was a
fantastic officer. And we, she was upset one day, I saw her outside and she was
upset. So I went and took her for a coffee and I asked her and her problem was,
she was so good, such a good officer.

So good that she was being a little pressured to apply for
Sergeant's job, go through the, go through the, , study, go do the exams, do
the process. And it was a company becoming a little overwhelming for me because
she had two young kids, uh, you know, like say that formative years. So then 14
year olds and, um, she was trying to balance everything, you know, I don't want
to let anyone down.

If I, you know, they're telling me I should have a promotion
that I'm worthy of it, blah, blah. And I, and I've got these kids and she was
just, you know, I said, What makes you happy? Tell me what makes you happy.
Tell me the two, tell me things that make you happy right now. And she said,
what makes me happy? I love coming to work, work in the truck and influencing
these, these young officers as a senior constable.

I'm training them. And I love going to watch my kids play
footy. I said, well, do those two things and worry about the rest later. Yeah.
And I said, she said, but you know, I do it. What about, I said, if you want to
be a Sergeant, it's the right time. Do it later. You're still fairly young in
your career. Like you really, if you're here for a career, man, you've got
another 20 years to go.

Don't rush it. Make yourself happy. And she came back to me. I,
you know, I saw her five years later and she said to me, guess what? And I
said, what? She said, I'm the happiest I could ever be. I said, what are you
doing? He says, I have a senior constable on the truck and I'm going now to all
my football games with the kids.

And they're now older kids going up in high grades. And she
said, I've had the best five years. And I think, yeah, that was very true. It
wasn't anything really, I didn't think the answer she had, but she just needed
someone to say it for her. So her journey would, I never had kids, so I
couldn't really understand what that was all about.

About, you know, I want to be with my kids. So I get it. So I
think it's about making your journey for you because you're the only one that's
going to live it.

R

osie Skene:

. I
think there's such power in people. Like you said, we all sort of deep down
know what the answers are to the questions we have for ourselves.

But sometimes you do need that little bit of permission from
someone that you respect as well to say, you know, it's okay to do what you
want to do.

Deb Wallace:

Exactly.
I agree. Yeah. Just a sounding board. Find a good sounding board.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Deb Wallace:

You
know, I always get over this thing. They say, I've got this professional coach
and a mentor.

I'm going, Oh, that sounds very fancy. When it's really just
find someone you trust. I never had a professional coach, but I probably had
some bad, I don't know if I call them mentors. I don't think they'd want to be
called that either, but they were just people that gave me great advice. And
honest, though, very honest, sometimes a bit too honest.

Um,

Rosie Skene:

you've
talked about resilience before in some podcast episodes that I've listened to
of yours, and something that you've said, and I agree with you completely, is
that it's something that you need to build. It's not something that you're
given or born with. Even how did you build your resilience through your career?

How do you think that benefited your journey?

Deb Wallace:

You're
100 percent right. There was a period in time, and I can't remember under which
commissioner it was years ago, but they were bringing out some experts from
England to develop a resilience course. And they were asked to speak to me. And
because I think the commissioner of the day said she causes stress, she doesn't
get it.

Um, but I think really being an EELS supporter, you, you
understand the meaning of resilience. But no, I looked at there a bit strange
because they said to me, you know, we were doing this course. I said, I don't
really know how you could build it. I don't know how you could do a course on
resilience. Oh, well, we're going to do a course.

And now I get my certificate and said, now I'm resilient.
That's garbage. I think you have to just surround, like, go, you're not going
to build it if you don't get exposed to some, um, you know, tragedy or, you
know, some, some bad experiences. I think you just, it's about how you manage
that. And I think you just have to say to yourself, well, it's a speed hump.

It's not a mountain. I, I, I'm going to, what's, what's the
best thing for me? And I, for me too, I, um, I go way back, but I found
exercise was good. Not, you know, I'm not, I'm not an elite athlete or
anything, but I liked aerobics or I did Zumba or I did anywhere that just kept
me Moving and for that hour being away from phones or calls or whatever, just
being, being yourself.

So to me, exercise or it doesn't have to be, you know, it can
be any little amount, just moving and getting away, dropping the phone. I also,
I think for me. I never had, I still don't, as you probably can attest to, I
don't do social media at all. I don't have a social media footprint. People
say, Oh, you don't have yours.

You're like a ghost. I said, no, I'm just technically
challenged. I don't do social media. And the reason is. One of the reasons I
look back in what I didn't know how to do and I didn't care, and I didn't think
people really needed to see that I was having a baked dinner for tea. I don't
think that really, I don't think my life was that interesting, people wanted to
see it.

Um, but, I'm being a bit cynical, aren't I? Uh, you can when
you get to my age. You can be quite open. But I didn't want to hear, Or read.
Imagine, imagine, like, you know, people, everyone's got an opinion on
something. So if you put something up and you might say, oh, here's me over in
France. Oh,

yeah, well, you know.

Must be nice. Yeah, or, you know, so I just didn't really need
people to make, and I didn't need to be aware of negative comments. What I
don't hear can't hurt me. So, um, yeah, I guess, I guess for me, it's about
putting the blinkers on and only being answerable to me and the people that I
care for. Um, and the people, you know, and the people that I trust, making
sure that I be as good as I can for them.

But yeah, and just realizing that there's a lot of people worse
off than me. And I think for me, the first taste of I got was when I did the
re-enactment of when Anita Cobby got murdered and years later. Um, it wasn't
straight off, um, that I developed my relationship with Gary and Grace, Grace
in particular, but it was after years later when we, um, wasn't to say 2000
that we then developed a strong relationship that was, you know, went into the
seeing each other all the time, uh, was the, I saw their resilience.

And what they did, they turned a tragedy of the murder of a
daughter, I can't even imagine in the most horrific of circumstances into
something beautiful into they, they said, no, we're not going to be victims.
Then they don't have the right to do that to us. They've taken our daughter.
They're not taking our life.

Yeah. So they thought they, and then they said, we're going to
help others. So they formed the Homicide Victim Support Group, uh, way back in
92. And, and so I would often think when I had a bad, and, and, and, funny
enough, terrible day with Bill, that morning when I'm sitting there in my
office, it's 7 o'clock in the morning, waiting for everyone to arrive, I rang
Grace Lynch.

Not to talk about it, not to think, just because we'd often
talk on the phone, how you going, let's organise another lunch, what are we
doing? And I rang her, now whether she'd heard it on the radio, I don't know.
She just said, how you going? I said, I'm good. She said, do you want to pop
over for a cup of tea and a scone?

I'll put the scones on if you want. And I said, no, I'll be
right. And it was a reminder, just talking to her. In a very not about the
thought about what was happening. I didn't even know she knew what had
happened. But it was just grace. She was grounded, she was kind and she was
strong. And that's that to me is if I can face what I face what she's face boy
oh boy.

That's nothing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
think it's important isn't it to put yourself in. If you think you're having a
rough day, it's, it's a good thing to think about how rough other people have
it actually. And, and that puts a lot into perspective for you really, doesn't
it? Yeah, I think so. I think

Deb Wallace:

so.
Yeah. So often I say when I'm having a bad hair day, my pants don't fit.

I read a poster in grace.

Rosie Skene:

You,
we've just briefly spoken about you retiring in 2019 and you got to march off
the parade ground in Goulburn, which sounded like a remarkable day for you.
What led you to make that decision to leave policing after 36 years and, and
how did it feel to close that chapter of your life? Well it was, it happened
pretty suddenly, that's when we talk

Deb Wallace:

about
control.

I, I had lied so much about my age, I thought I was much
younger than I was, I thought I had another three years. I'm in what's called
the pre 88 pension scheme, which is an envy of everybody, and I get that. It's
a very good pension scheme, which doesn't rely on, you know, yes, there's a
cost benefit to go out, not medically unfit.

There is a bit of an advantage, but that, that's not what was
where the pension was plenty for me. So, um, I remember, um, thinking, I forgot
how old I was. And then I realised that I was coming up to my birthday in
November, that I was reaching the maturity age for my pension. And I, and, and
how bad, how weird is this to stay on after my birthday.

It was going to cost me a lot of money, not, not neutral. I
even would have stayed for neutral, but it was going to, I'd be at a loss, like
something like, you know, 1500 bucks a fortnight because of the change in tax
status.

Wow.

Yeah. So it was a no brainer. And also, as I said before, so I
said, okay, I'm, you know, turning in November, so when do I go and when there
is no, um, good time to go, like, but why am I hanging longer than I need to,
I'm going to, I didn't want to be one of those ones for me.

I didn't want to say, I'll be going in six months. And then
everyone sort of goes, Oh, well, we know who we're going to get all that
speculation where she's, we'll put her in the corner and put a blanket on it
because she's now useless. She's going in six months.

Um, you know, there's nothing more excellent.

So once you even hit you go and you're gone.

Yeah. So, um, and because I was in such a high from just come
back from America, September, we got the award. Um, things were running
beautifully. Um, I thought, oh, well, I get to go out on a high and I suppose
that day. So I said, okay, I want to go out how I came in because it was that
thing where you can march out as a commissioned officer at the parade ground,
and it brought back some, but how, how special was it for me as well, which I
didn't know this was a surprise because I didn't want to send off for me.

, I didn't know whether people would come to hear me say
something controversial or say something, whatever. I don't know. The people
that , were part of my life are still part of my life. Yeah. So I wasn't saying
goodbye to them. And those of my, my teams, I, I, , had morning tea with them
or whatever.

So it wasn't, it wasn't goodbye or farewell it was, or what?
I'll see you in another life. You know, at Meals on Wheels or or just Deb, not
boss. But I got there and I was ready to go off and , the Raptor crew rang me
the night before and said, oh, we just, coincidentally, Deb, you would believe
it.

'cause you know, they go down to Goulburn to get their
accreditation for their, , operational accreditation for their, we, we, the
course was on, so we happened to be down here. So, look, we're here. Why don't
you come and join us for, for a Thai meal. Oh, alright. We're at the local Thai
restaurant at Goulburn okay.

So I just turned up thinking there's the tactical team there.
Well, of course there was, there was the intel team and all the tactical team
had hired out the whole restaurant. So we'll have this great informal dinner.
And then they presented me, which I wasn't going to have, because it was a bit
like a memorial when you die.

One of those honour boards. You know, I didn't want to, I just
didn't go down that track. And so there it was, they, they got that done for me
with, but done a particular raptor way, which had a big picture of raptor on
it. Um, so that was there. I said, Oh, that's good. Say goodbye. Had hugs. See
you later. Bye. It was, you know, uh, the next day I did the, , guy that does
the band major who, cause I'd been the parade commander for a number of
parades.

So I had a great relationship with this fantastic band. And he
said, when we get to the end of the parade, we are normally just a music phase.
But we're gonna, we've changed protocol for the passing out parade, so, um, the
marching off officers, you just keep marching, I know that's a bit weird, but
anyway, so just keep marching Deb, just keep marching, , with the music,
because until the music stops, just keep marching, that's the new protocol.

Oh, okay, do as I'm told. So we did that, we're marching off,
and yes, they changed that fantastic last bit was Auld Lang Syne, which is when
it gets to the end, and they keep playing it. And then I spotted them and that
was the whole of Raptor in their proper dress. They got out of their overalls,
which is a big thing.

Wow. They're going to get out of there, right? Like glued onto
their bodies. There they were in their, what we call their two blues, their
formal dress outfits lining the back of the parade ground as a Guard of Honour.
So I marched out. Look

Rosie Skene:

how
special. And the end. Yeah. But there's always tomorrow.

There is.

Um, I, we, just briefly speaking, and you mentioned it
actually, and I wanted to talk about it, how, um, you can be a leader at any
rank level.

And through your career, you've demonstrated, um, Extraordinary
leadership, not just management, but actual leadership. , and I'm sure that
you've had people that you trusted that you could turn to for advice in today's
policing climate. And I talked to quite a few constables, senior constables,
some sergeants.

Um, they feel disconnected with their management and. They
believe that some in leadership roles aren't always approachable or invested in
their team. As someone who's led at the highest level, what advice would you
give to leaders at, at all ranks? If it's just a constable mentoring a
probationary constable, or even those, , commissioned officers, what, how would
you emphasise the privilege and responsibility that comes with leading others?

Deb Wallace:

And I
think it goes back to that, you know, you get a promotion and you've got the
gold ring, you know, wow, I've got this remote, don't look for the next one.
You need to be there. You need to do that role. I mean, I can be critical,
aren't I? I don't mean to be critical of the current leader. So I think it's, I
think it's much more of a, cause I know amazing people in command positions who
have so invested and I'm so proud of Darren Beachy.

He's just told me. Um, that is now a superintendent at Bathurst
and aren't Bathurst lucky to have someone because he will be so invested in
him. So I suppose it's about the individual. I do see those leaders still there
today, but I guess I went out the other, which I think is, um, because of. It's
in the media.

So I'm probably not surprised. There's a lot of vacancies and
recruitment and, and the, I suppose I call it the brain drain, people either
disengaging from the cops or leaving the cops or retiring from the cops or off
sick from the cops or whatever, or, or shortage of in, of recruits. So that if
we look at that, I think that's a worldwide thing going on.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Deb Wallace:

And I
think the biggest phenomenon for what I'm seeing is that everyone seems to be
relieving everywhere. So whether it's for personal development or not, I don't
know, but just like When you go on to relieve somewhere, then your position is
A, it's perceived as, um, they, they, they don't think we're important, so
they're looking for the next step, so they've left us.

So that's one detriment of that, is that, that, that leader
from with A, the move, go elsewhere to relieve, who looks after them, who makes
them feel special? Uh, so I, I feel for them with that. And also, uh, it's a
case of. When someone comes in as relieving in a position, it's that, oh, well,
I'm only relieving, I can't make a decision, or I, you know, that's probably a
bit strong, because I'm sure they make decisions, but I can't change anything,
because it's not my command.

That makes sense? So, I think it's a little bit of both. I
think it's about people constantly relieving in other places really has an
impact on morale. And I, and I was, and I think like anything, um, I think when
I got to gains, that was a big thing. Biggest problem, not so much Raptor.
Raptor had Dave and Darren as a constant, and they ran that sort of isolated.

The problem when I got to gangs, and again not critical because
it was just circumstances, but there, some people from there had, had been, had
been leaving for good reasons. I'm not knocking that at all, you know, but when
I got there, They said to me, uh, one of the, said to me, um, do you want me to
do some of that?

We, you know, as a, as a boss, anyway, you have a lot of what
we call the, the in tray, you know, documents have to be read through,
decisions made, resources cut, spent, whatever. And there's an in tray for
those things. And some, one of my really good inspectors said to me, do you
want me to do the in tray for you?

And, , I looked a bit perplexed. I said, isn't it my in tray?
And he went, yeah, yeah. But I didn't know if you, what. Being like going to
relieve somewhere or whatever. And I went, , no, do you want me to relieve
somewhere? He said, no, no, no, no. We're glad you're here. But it was, they
got so much in the habit of not having someone constant.

And one of the things someone said to me was, you're always
here. And I said, so is that a bad thing? Where do you want me to be? And they
went, no, no, It's good because we can, we know if we've got to run something
by it, we can just duck down. And I always had that, you know, that real, that
thing called open door policy.

I probably took it to a whole new level. My door was always
full by room and I liked it. So no issue there. And I'm not saying, and I, I
hope no one draws from this that I'm criticising anyone else's style or what
they see, it's just what I observed and what I did for me. , I like chatting to
them, I had this big lolly jar, which was usually empty by the end of the day,
, to entice them to come to my office.

, but actually I ate the lollies because they were all health,
they were all health freaks. So I think that, I think, , in all jokes aside, I
think, And I don't think it's just, and I never want to be one of those
unchecked critics, you know, I've retired until you have what's wrong with the
job, but it's not what I mean.

I think it's just a phenomenon, but I think that intellect,
that brain drain at the top and leave people leaving and for whatever reasons
is satisfied with the job burnt out or whatever. And then if you're not getting
the recruits from the bottom, you're going to have a shortage just to keep bums
on seats.

And it was interesting. I heard a politician the other week and
it was months ago now. I was talking and it just sort of showed through to me
because I remember I spoke to you about how I think prevention is critical.
Sadly, if you don't have any fat, the only way you can do proactive policing.

Suppose pro is to have some extra fat, if that speaks. I'm
talking about fat people. Yeah. You need the staff to do it. Yeah. You need
staff to have that luxury. 'cause otherwise you just gotta, you know,
responding to jobs is critical. People can't be waiting for cops to get to
their front door if they're in trouble.

So the reaction, the response has to be first priority. I get
that. The first thing that has to go from that is the ability to be proactive
and do the preventive stuff. And the sad bit is. Nowhere in the world, to my
knowledge, and certainly when I left, and certainly people smarter than me,
have been able to measure the impact that preventing crime has on budgets, on,
you know, community safety, because how do you measure a crime that doesn't
happen?

Yeah. So it's a challenge. So where people often are held to
account of all your, how many arrests have you had, how many charges have you
had, how many, what is crime up, is crime down, that you can measure that. So
there's pressure on people to get those responses and those responses, times
down and all of that, locking up people that commit the crime, clear up rates
was to call it.

But then of course, whether you invest on stuff that you don't
actually measure in the I'm sure it will be measured long term.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Just some thoughts. It's, it's, it's tough. And you're right, across the world
at the moment, I know, especially in Australia, they're struggling big time to
retain and recruit police, which is, yeah, really sad.

Yeah. And

Deb Wallace:

I, how
lucky was I, I worked in every unit that had that, that, I was proactive. Yeah.
I didn't do much reactive policing and most of my career was proactive and that
was a luxury i had through some circumstances perhaps

Rosie Skene:

I, I
actually really enjoyed even in GDs, you know, doing the proactive stuff was
definitely my, , vibe. It's just so much more fun too, I think.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah.
Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

After 36
years, you would have had some really, , incredible achievements, but even
moments in the police. What, do you have like one fondest memory of being in
the police?

Deb Wallace:

Ah, no,
I, I, you know what, if I, if I do it in chunks, it's, it's was, I, I, I don't
have one. That's what's so hard for me. Cause I had so many, but if I can
imagine, and I'll just break it up really simply for you. The first, ,
achievement, , was being accepted by those fantastic men at Blacktown Mount
Druitt.

So that was the first step. Huge. Except being accepted.

Yes.

Second one was Graham Rosetta at Blacktown Detectives giving me
the opportunity to work in the area of detectives. So there's that second chunk
and working with him, who was, who was legendary in my mind still is. The next
chunk, I guess, was then going to Cabramatta, which was a whole, Cabramatta was
a highlight, working with that amazing group of young police under a fantastic
Sergeant Cole Helson, who set the tone of when every other area was facing, you
know, especially in our world, Cabramatta and Kings Cross and all that, there
was lots of, you know, Particularly across the Royal Commission shadows.

We had none of that. We were protected by the integrity of that
team and the integrity of our leaders. So working there and then being put in
charge of a little gang unit at Cabramatta as a young sergeant established, I
suppose, what was to come for the future. My credibility as a boss, I guess, a
leader and also a street cop.

And then moving on to, , going to state crime. And working in
all of those units in the world of, , major crime. , and then of course,
finishing off, as you said, , but amongst all that, amongst all of that
personal things, promotion and all that, I think the highlight for me was
working with these amazing people that I did and that these people that are
still part of my life today is something that I'm so proud of.

It didn't stop. On the 19th of December,

continue to be, um, part of my life.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
the good ones stay, don't they? Yes. Yeah. Since retiring, have you, you, you'd
not slowed down, like you said, you'd still volunteer and you've been appointed
a member of the NSW Parole Board. Yes. Yeah. And you work with Grace's Place
and, , of course you host Million Dollar Murders on the Nine Network.

So you obviously like to keep busy with meaningful work.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah, I
think, , I'm not one to sit down and, you know, you're finding it a lot where
people say they, you , I heard that cliche, my old bosses I used to have lunch
with who had retired and they said, Oh, you'd be so busy busy because he worked
24 seven basically in the cops and I'm going to stop, but you don't stop.

So, , yeah, I think for me it's about still being able to
contribute in a meaningful way for me, , feeling I'm still able to. give
something and that's the amount of work that I am doing is probably a little
bit over the top sometimes, but it's for me. I don't have kids, so I don't have
grandkids. I have rescue dogs, which you can probably hear throughout this
marking.

Um, but, , I, so I've got time to still contribute and I'm sure
there'll be a point in time down the track. When I say I give up something, but
at the moment I'm loving every bit of it. And it was such an honour to be
appointed by the governor to, as a community representative, not as a cop, not
as an ex cop, but as a community representative on the parole authority.

Rosie Skene:

, I
really love the work that's being done with the, , homicide victim support
group and Grace's Place. Can you explain a little bit more about Grace's Place
and how that came about? Because it's, I think it's beautiful.

Deb Wallace:

Yeah,
so, as I said, , Gary and Grace Lynch and Anita Cobby's parents and Ebony
Simpson, , mum and dad, Christine and Peter were the founders of the Homicide
Victim Support Group way back.

They formed that in 92 following, although Anita got murdered
in 86. In 92, , little Ebony got murdered and they, that came out of that. So
continued on helping families, helping families, helping families. Grace often
did express at times that they started off the whole thing with the homicide
victim support after Peter and Christine reached out in relation, after the
following of the death of Ebony, because they had a son that they were trying
to manage through the tragedy as well.

So I didn't want. You know, didn't know how do we deal with a
child, Gary and Grace, they had, , a fantastic daughter who they kept out of
the, , out of the media so that she could have as much a normal life as she
could without, , you're being compared to Anita's sister. So that was
Catherine.

So that, so they knew how to manoeuver through that world. So
when they reached out, Grace often used to say, , I love the fact that we can
help families, but I really would like to do just something special for the
children. so you know, she had this special thing for the children affected by
homicide, because as we know, a lot of murders relate to domestic violence.

And so when a domestic might happen at home and there's a
murder, the children are basically taken out. And where do you put them? Well,
you put them with a relative or you put them, you know, cause it might be a
crime scene. So you put them in a motel or you do as best you can or, and so
the children are often displaced and then, , their little souls are being,
they're confused and their minds, what's going on.

They don't understand. So that was always a thing we used to
talk about. Grace got lung cancer. Gary had died at the age of 90 and he'd been
dead a couple of years and Grace now got lung cancer and she made the very
brave decision not to have treatment because she was also very comfortable with
what was coming next.

, she'd made peace with that. And so during those discussions,
you know, we all, , under the, , Our steward, our captain of our group, Martha
Jabbaw, who's been the coordinator of the Homicide Victim Support Group for all
of these years. , it was, no doubt, I think it's hard to say where it was
Grace's idea or where it was Martha's idea, but let's say she's our champion,
and out of a few thought bubbles came this idea To build a facility for
children, particularly for children affected by homicide.

Well, it started off as perhaps a small little project. Well,
It went for seven years. It took us that long to raise the money because we had
to do like seeding funds to show to the governments that we had, we were
serious, so we had to prove ourselves and that happened over a number of years
of raising a lot of raffles, a lot of dinners, a lot of generosity from amazing
community members.

Fantastic support from our Blacktown workers who were so
generous with their facilities and also the donations and then of course the
state and the federal government's both paid in some money to allow us to build
this place, which is at Doonside on the corner of Doonside Road and Eastern
Creek Road, and it's a residential centre.

That also has our volunteers, our psychologists are out there,
our office is out there, because this, there's only a few, very few paid
employees, the rest are all volunteers that maintain, but it's a residential
centre where children, predominantly between the ages of 3 and 15 can go and
stay. , particularly in the immediate trauma and they'll be given psychological
support, loving support from families, from volunteers, and they can stay there
for 72 hours or as long as they need and come back there at any time.

And of course, it's appropriately named. It's a world's first.
Martha has now opened its doors. I think interstate as well, if there's a need
there, she didn't want to be selfish as Martha never is and said, if there's a
need, , we will try to fill it. And it's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful
place.

It's just a home, but the generosity, I think special things
like. quilting groups, , rotary clubs, many, many service clubs out there have
had all these wonderful ladies doing these quilts. So when children arrive,
they give them a beautiful care pack, soft toys, if they're of that age
appropriate. And then there's a quilt, a handmade quilt.

And that gets given to every child with a message that this is
your quilt. And just know that it's been made with love for you and all
donated, all done by these amazing volunteers. So you can see where your faith
in humanity continues, , through all the darkness and the badness and these
morons shooting each other and wanting to be bikies and whatnot.

There's this other side of what's true humanity.

Rosie Skene:

I think it's such a beautiful thing. And I've, you know, obviously had a look online at
it and it looks like a stunning facility. And just with what you ended with
there, you know, Those people are the 1%, and unfortunately, In policing.
That's, you know, 99% of your job is dealing with that 1% of society.

And you can't, you can become pretty skewed in your thinking
that every, everyone's like that. But, um, there's, there's a lot of great
people and there's a lot of great things happening out in the world. If you
can, if you can get away from the 1%, it's a pretty beautiful place.

Deb Wallace:

You're a
hundred percent right now that I'm a punter and, you know, president of the
local club here.

Um. Is that when you talk to the punters, as I am one now, the
amount of respect and they have the police, so as much as you could get easily
get jaded, I guess, I, is it all, what's it all for? Let me trust you the 99
percent of the people out there. Live every day in safety and peace because of
what the cops do.

Rosie Skene:

Mm.
Yeah. , so we've talked about this. There's a lot of police leaving at the
moment.

Um, attrition rates higher than recruitment rate. And right now
I'm not sure if you're aware, but New South Wales police officers are leaving,
uh, in droves, unfortunately, due to the changes in their TPD entitlements. I
would like to ask you, is there anything that you would like to share with the
police?

That is staying the ones that are still turning up to their
shifts, knowing that there's others leaving them, they're understaffed, they're
likely exhausted and probably even a little bit unsure of their future. Is
there any, you know, positive words that you can give to those guys and girls
that are turning up?

Deb Wallace:

Look, I
think I'd say is that if you. If you're really in a place where it's not for
you anymore, please feel free to go. Don't look for, I suppose it's a case,
it's not a career for everybody. I think the bravest people in the world put
their hand up and say, Yeah, I made a mistake. It's not what I thought.

I need to move on and go somewhere that finds something that is
for me. But for those, who decide to stay, I can only say you, I think, you
know, yes, it might be bad that you're going through now and it's not as, you
know, it's not what you thought or whatever the challenges you're facing, which
I maybe didn't face.

If, if you go there for the long haul, I think you'll walk away
and you'll say every moment was worth it. It really is, has to be, um, a
calling in a way, but also. It's a bit like, I always use a comparison that my
hairdresser, I had this fantastic hairdresser once. Fantastic. Loved
hairdressing. It was her world.

Loved it. Loved it. Loved it. She had a bad, through her
genetics, not through any problem, uh, reaction to every chemical that she used
to her hands were like red, raw, blah, blah. So she made the decision, I have
to give my hairdressing away. I can't do this. I'm in too much pain. It's my
genetic makeup. It's no one's fault.

It's not the chemical company's fault. It's not my parents
fault. It's my genetic makeup. I just can't do it. I need to find something
else. And she moved on and found a huge fulfilling career in, in something
else. So it wasn't a case of, it's not for me. So I now can't do anything else.
That's the end of my life.

I might, you know, that's it. I'm done. You know, I couldn't do
it. So there's nothing out there for me. There is always something out there
for you. I don't think there isn't the skills that you will learn in the are
transferable to a lot of, a lot of other areas, but also I would say. Don't
make a decision based on emotion, but be really think it out.

Talk to people you trust, work out where you are at, and can
you get out of that place that you might be unhappy? Can that be turned around?
And if it is, give it some time, because I have to say, I have not one regret
of ever going. And I miss it. I miss the people. I miss it every day. And hence
why I guess I keep busy.

I can't do, I'm not doing that anymore. But I use the skills
from that in other ways. So I would, I would encourage you to get as much out
of it as you can, but also to recognize if it's not for you, call

Rosie Skene:

time.
Yeah. Yeah. That's great

advice. Deb it's been such a pleasure and a privilege and
absolutely the best thing that's happened to me today is talking to you.

Me too, Rosie. Thank you so, so much for your time and for
being so generous. With your story, , I know everyone's going to love it so
much. So I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Deb Wallace:

And
please, I'm on your phone call away. If you want to chat.

Rosie Skene:

Thank
you so much. I appreciate that.

I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure
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