Rosie Skene:

Hello, and
welcome to episode 32 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. After a massive episode last
week, I have a little shorty episode for you today. After all, life is about
balance, right?

In Tactical Yoga Australia news, we've had a massive response
to our downloadable PDF. If you aren't aware, we have a downloadable PDF on the
website that you can give to your treating GP, psychologists or psychiatrists,
or all of them so that they can recommend the first responder mental wellness
method program on your behalf to your insurers.

This means that you could take part in the program and not be
out of pocket for the 247. We've had a few people now be successful with this
in New South Wales with EML, and I am looking forward to welcoming even more
and more people into the program. That's just getting incredible results.

If you would like to download this, just head over to the
website. The link will be in the show notes, tacticalyogaaustralia.com, , and
it's on the homepage.

On to today's guest. The name may seem a little familiar
because he has been here before. Mark Thomas is a phenomenal man and the
founder of the Code Nine Foundation.

Code Nine Foundation is an incredible charity based in Victoria
that supports not only first responders, but their families as well.

The Code 9 Foundation helps first responders and their families
directly by offering safe spaces for first responders to connect and receive
support and advice, supporting families with meals, providing mental health
referrals, providing respite weekends, facilitating mental health forums, and
so much more.

Mark is here today to share something , very exciting. And I
think is just brilliant in support of first responders and their kids in the
PTSD journey. So without further ado, let's get it on.

Rosie Skene:

Welcome
to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

. Mark Thomas, welcome back to Triumph Beyond Trauma. You're my
first repeat offender.

Mark Thomas:

How
cool. Thanks.

Rosie Skene:

I'm
very, very excited, but you are here for a , very special reason.

And you guys are releasing your very first book from the Code
Nine Foundation, My Dad, My Hero. I would love to hear about how you're doing
and how that book came about. Thank you.

Mark Thomas:

Thank
you. Thank you again for having me back and to have a chat about this book,
which we're super proud about and think it'll, it'll have a really good
difference within, The first responder family and, and I suppose, to be honest,
it could be any family that, uh, a parent is living with a mental health
condition, whatever that condition might be, because you can just adapt it a
little bit, I suppose, with your own readings and your own words.

So this, the first idea of it was several years ago. Uh, yeah,
maybe three years ago, I reckon, where we started talking about it and really
stems from the co founder and, uh, of the foundation, Rob Atkins and his
family. So, uh, he, uh, he's diagnosed PTSD, depression, anxiety, and, and the
kids really didn't know what was happening to him.

Then I chimed in. I remember, not exactly remember the
conversation, but the guts of it. And I said, yes, same here. Like, and some of
my behaviours, which were not me, they were my injury. Um, in particular, I
mean, there's two of them that still sit in my mind. One, my daughter, she
would have been about four at the time, asked for more, uh, milk in her
Wheaties.

And I baked her for Australia, you know, like, and I look back
on it and it's just like, there's no excuses. It wasn't me. It was my injury.
But, and then another time when I come home from work and I was just cooked.
And my lab, it was probably five or six at the time, wanted to play cricket.
And I said, Oh, I just, Just give me five, mate.

And I never went outside and played cricket with him. So you've
got this little lad who's five or six and he just wants to play cricket with
his dad and I wasn't there for him. So, uh, and yeah, between those two stories
and, you know, Rob, Rob can recount several of his own, uh, and then we, all
right, well, can we do a book that explains this in really child friendly
terms?

, with characters, whatever they look like. So that the idea
was born, , Kim, who was on the committee or still is on the committee. Uh,
she, she took carriage of it, got the illustrator on board and the illustrator
come up with these, , very alien looking characters. They're like

Rosie Skene:

little
monsters or something.

Don't they? But

Mark Thomas:

they're
friendly. So

Rosie Skene:

very
friendly.

Mark Thomas:

Uh, and
that's like what we wanted. We didn't really. want the representative human
looking people because it's, it's a kid, it's a kid's book. So if we make these
little characters friendly, uh, which she did, Anastasia, she did a really good
job with it. Uh, so we had, we basically got the, the characters in line and
then it was just to basically add the story to it.

And the story, like it's 20 odd pages, uh, and the story flows
from You know, dad struggling, , the kids showing that, showing that, you know,
he, he doesn't want to play with the kids or he can't play with the kids is
probably more, more to the point. , he's, he's got a little alarm bell, , in
his brain.

He's got these lightning bolts and exclamation marks and little
things above his head which shows his head's, , you know, something's going on
within it. , like the middle page spread, like that, that is the, the biggest,
, guilt trip for us. Thanks. It's because dad's inside in a darkened room, his
head's going berserk and the two kids are outside in the sandpit looking sad
and it's like oh yeah that when I first looked at that I was I was on the verge
of tears because it's just It's like, yeah, that's me.

Um, shows the family at the supermarket and things like that.
But then, then they have a little chat between Jordan, which is a nod to, , Rob
and his wife, Christie, one of their son's names, Jordan. So the son in this
book is Jordan. So it's a nice nod to the Atkins family. And, , they have a bit
of a chat.

and , then they have a chat to mom and they call a doctor and
the doctor puts them onto a special doctor called a psychologist. Then dad's
getting treatment. , dad gets a diagnosis and then it shows him, you know,
eating good food and then playing golf with his mates and doing all these
things and.

Um, you know, at the end of the story, it's basically dad's a
hell of a lot better and he's playing with us again. So, you know, the very
quick overview of that, it shows that whole journey, uh, in a very friendly
and, and in a way that, that kids will understand. Um, we've got a, We stuck a
glossary in the back, which was flicked to it.

It's like a psychologist. A psychologist is a doctor for your
thoughts and feelings. Psychologists help people with PTSD, anxiety,
depression, and other things too. Other things, you know, like, That's the way
the kid's going to talk.

Yep,

Rosie Skene:

so

Mark Thomas:

they'll
kind of get that. Anxiety. Anxiety can affect your thoughts, body and behavior.

Lots of people with anxiety do not want to go into a crowd, or
go to dinner, or even to the supermarket. Anxiety can also make you feel really
nervous and sometimes sick in your tummy. So, like all of the, I suppose the
words that a child may not understand and it's got that simple, um, Explanation
of it, uh, in the back.

So

Rosie Skene:

how good
though to like when you're reading a book to a child and they go, what does
that word mean? You don't have to think about it. You can just have a look and
we'll work it out together.

Mark Thomas:

And it's
there. And yeah, we, we got a couple of, um, like the kids help line headspace
and lifeline logo, not the logos, but their numbers in the back as well.

Yeah. So, uh, you know, pretty much a, a resource to, uh, to
people. So, yeah. So, I think,

Rosie Skene:

I think
it's great. And I really like you've mentioned the, um, how dad has got those
little exclamation marks and like, it looks like fire and everything coming out
of his head. And then through the book. , as you mentioned, he starts to get
his treatment and do things that are good for him.

It minimizes, but it's always still there, even when, even at
the end when he's like feeling better and they have that little family photo.
It's still just a little bit there, which is a great nod to PTSD because it is
always with you. Um, and , your symptoms might just be a bit less sometimes
than what they are.

So I think that was really a , nice touch actually.

Mark Thomas:

Yeah,
and that's, uh, you know, it's a really good point you make because, like, I'm
not a subscriber to the, to the idea that you can be cured from post traumatic
stress. It's, it's part of us. It forever will be part of us. Yes, we can
manage our symptoms really well, and they can be really low at times, but Uh,
those of us that live with it know it's, it can be a split second moment in
time and all of a sudden you're heightened again.

So, uh, yeah, Anastasia did a great job and the wording to it.
Like we had, interestingly, we had, we sent it to a literally, literally, I
can't say that word, but literally, agent, someone who assesses books. Okay. I
have trouble with a lot of words. Um, and it come back with. Not overly, overly
favourable, uh, feedback, but, um, we had a meet, we discussed it, and we
thought we've got a good product here, so we're just going to run with what we
think is what we want.

Yeah. Like, we've got the experience of, You know, we're one
side of this story. We're the sufferer. We've all got kids. We've seen them
react to us when we've been heightened. So we, we're on a good, good thing
here. This is a good product. So we, we stuck with what we thought was, uh,
what we wanted to portray.

Uh, and then we had the book checked out by two child
psychologists and a, uh, primary school principal and all three come back and
said, love it. Absolutely love it. There's a few, few grammatical changes here
and there, but, uh, overall, and that reinforced to us, and that's no
disrespect to that, to that agent.

That's, you know, they were doing what they thought, you know,
what, what they've trained to do or what they've done for a long time. But I
think there's just probably a misunderstanding is what we were trying to
portray. So to get that, that, that really good positive feedback from people
who are around vulnerable children all day, every day.

Uh, that was, that was gold for us.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
actually wanted to ask you about those people that had a look at it, the
psychologist and the principal, because I was wondering, , if they had a hand
in helping you write it and cover the points, , in relation to the PTSD and
treatment, or if that just came from you guys?

Like, how did the writing come about?

Mark Thomas:

That was
us.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
great.

Mark Thomas:

Yeah.
Christie and Rob basically sat down, , went through in a draft way. Yep. Cool.
Like that. I reckon we should say this instead of that. Yep. Actually that
flows better. And it was just a mix and match of words. Um, sentences, things,
, which we, , which we removed or, or added or whatever.

, like the story at the start was a lot, a bit larger and it
went through more of the family sort of, , atmosphere, but like the front cover
was always going to be the front cover. And this is really the story between
Dad and Jordan. So we just wanted to hone in on that. That's how we removed. A
couple of the, the images and some of the wording made it a bit more snappier
and just focusing on these two.

So, um, it's, we'll look at doing others, certainly, , one for,
for mothers out there. Um, you know, like we, we don't want this to portray my
dad, my hero, that we don't acknowledge our, um, our mothers out there because
we do, we support many. Uh, we, you know, we, we love our female first
responders so that there's certainly no, there's nothing in there to suggest
that we've just gone with my dad and we don't acknowledge that they're females.

That's for sure. I just want to get that really clear.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I,
like when I read it, I didn't think that at all. I did think you might have
some people make some comments though when I did read it, but I think even, you
know, I'll get my copy and read it to my seven year old, which will be great
for her. Um, and I'll just say, you know, this is some of the stuff that mum
deals with.

Yeah. Yeah. This is how mum feels sometimes. So I don't think
it's that much of an issue. And

Mark Thomas:

I mean,
it's easily adaptable. What I was saying before.

Rosie Skene:

You
know,

Mark Thomas:

like,
even if it's, if someone, you know, a parent out there lives with anxiety or
depression by itself, you can still, there's still parts of the book.

So even though, yes, it's aimed at first responder families, it
can certainly go into the military families. It can go into community families,
no worries. It's just showing that. You know, sometimes we struggle, and if we
reach out and we speak to our GPs and our psychs and, uh, that there's
treatments available and to make you feel better, and that, that's like, it's
much about, to me, it's as much about educating children on what happened to
their dad or their mum or, you know, their, their parent in any way as it is to
show kids that it's okay to speak to a psychologist and, you know, if you eat
healthy, if you exercise and things like this.

Then that's giving yourself the best chance of having a good
healthy brain.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely. I really like that. , I'm a big believer in starting young and, and
opening up conversations like that early as well. , so they, it normalizes it
within the family and then their friendship groups as well. Um, and then, you
know, it's like, it is okay to seek help when you're having a bit of trouble,
you know, if it's just your mom or dad, or you need to go and see a different
doctor.

I love that.

Mark Thomas:

And
that's, you know, like you talk about the education, like my two were, I think
they were three and four or something like that when I was hospitalised. So
they've, they've essentially grown up with it, but it's, it's just pure,
complete normality now. Like a couple of years ago, I was really struggling.

I'd come home from work. My lad walks in and he goes, Oh, what
are you doing home? I said, Oh, me head's no good, which is our little sort of
sign. Oh, you want to play COD? Yeah, righto. Then he just tottles off to his
bedroom, drops his bag, comes back, gets a controller, set it up, and we just
start playing Call of Duty.

Yeah. Like, it's just complete normal. And then, daughter got
home, what are you doing home? Oh, my head's no good. Alright, do you want
anything? No? Alright, sing out if you do. Yeah. They just know how to react,
they know. It's accepted. So, like, this book is that first step. for us to let
those real young ones know that, Hey, it's okay.

Rosie Skene:

I
definitely wish I had this book when I, cause my kids were pretty similar age.
I had a one year old, a five year old and a seven year old would have been
perfect for sure, because I really did struggle. And I've had conversations
with other, People that I know with PTSD. How do you talk to kids about it?

And then what's the right time? Like, how old should they be?
And then you've got to make it age appropriate. But I think this, this is a
really great book that you can start from, from those young ages for sure. And
then they'll absorb more of it as they get older, you know.

Mark Thomas:

It gives
them that little bit of knowledge and they can go, you know, understand that
anxiety makes you feel sick in the tummy or depression makes you feel sad.

Okay. So as I get older, then I can explore that a bit more.
Why does it make you feel sick in the tummy? Like what? Then I can start
exploring, you know, the body's reaction, the mind reaction. So it's that. It's
that entry level for for the young ones to get in there. So yeah, we're
obviously super proud of it.

We're formally launching it on Sunday at a little boutique
bookstore in Ballarat. Nice rural town, but it's very central because it's
There's, , triple zero Victoria. I've got a station there. There's only like a
couple others around, , fire rescue. Victoria have a major presence there. , I
mean, obviously we're there and that and they're there, but like big, it's a
big hub.

So, , so, so formally launched it on Sunday. We went with
Amazon. , it's on Amazon. , one of our partners. she ordered on Saturday and it
arrived Monday morning or something. So the turnaround is really quick. And
again, that, that, that comes down to, you know, if we were to stock it
ourselves, it's just.

It's easier.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah.

Mark Thomas:

So, ,
yeah, super proud and yeah, get the word out there. It's so it's, it's forever
there now. So, , yeah, it's not like a limited edition that we're only selling
100 copies and it's only going to be available for 3 months. It's, it's, it's
forever a resource for whoever needs it. So, it'd be great.

You know, years down the track, people are still looking at it
and go, Hey, this book's really good entry level. I

Rosie Skene:

think so
too. I think, , not even just for kids, I think some partners struggle to
understand as well. So even having it within the home, , just a really simple,
basic rundown of what goes on in their partner's life really is good.

I was definitely thinking that when I read it.

Mark Thomas:

And it's
like, it's like you think for a partner. How hard would it be to see? Your
partner just go downhill and then, you know, have this crash like I did and
it's like, whoa, what's going on here? What's this? What's that mean? So, yeah,

Rosie Skene:

yeah,
well done. I think it's great.

I think you've done a great job with it and I'm sure it will be
successful. And like you said, it's going to be around forever now. So. Yeah.
Ongoing success for sure. What else are you guys up to at Code Nine? I mean,
I'm sure it's been a big year with that book happening.

Mark Thomas:

Yeah.
Yeah. It's been a big year and we've been, um, planning and this is out there
now.

I think we've just sent out our last expression of interest for
it last night, which is a kids camp. Um, so, uh, Geelong adventure specialists.
We've teamed up with them to send 10 kids away down to a river down Geelong
way, down the coast where they'll go canoeing and camping and, like, they've
got a counsellor there, , like, all qualified people, like, it's perfectly safe
and, like, , legacy, , ADF legacy use Geelong Adventure Specialists, so.

And again, this idea stemmed from Rob and Christy, who sent one
of their lads on it and had a ball. , and it's probably two fold. One, it gives
the kid, they all come from first responders families where one of the, , one
of the parents, the first responders, So it gets them a week of camping and
adventure, which, you know, as a somewhere between a year seven and year 12,
which is the age group with, with hit this time.

, Who doesn't love adventure at that age, but it also too gives
the parents a week off where they can sort of put their feet up and, , you
know, they might have other kids in play, but, uh, Yeah, so it's a dual thing,
um, really excited about that. Our first one's going to be in January, , early
January. And then, , all things being equal, we'll do another one for a younger
age group.

So we're hitting different age groups, making sure everyone's
catered for. Do one probably in April. So it's the school holiday period. I
mean, we'd love to get to a point where we're continually running a camp every
school holiday. So four camps a year, different age groups. Um, whether we ever
got to an all female and all male or, , however, you know, kids are identifying
as or whatever, you know, just to make sure we are ticking, , all the boxes of
our, our first responder family kids.

So. You know, like from the word go, it's, , we've always been
heavily invested into , the whole family structure, because I think if you've
got the injured member, we'll use, you know, mum's mentally injured, but if you
can help cater to dad and the kids, you're creating this nice little support
bubble around that central person who needs all the support they can have.

So, you know, certainly not focusing on just the member there,
but it's just one part of what we do. So that's super exciting. I don't want to
time machine and throw me life away or anything, but I'm looking forward to mid
January when all the kids are back and we can get feedback , and things like
that.

So, just to see if we are, we are hitting the right mark, which
I think we are, but we've just got to, we've got to get that. , that feedback
to see how we can sharpen things up and, , get it better next time. So always
trying to improve. So there's a bit going on.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
think that's a beautiful idea too, because, um, I know, you know, Sarah,
U'Brien.

Yeah.

Um, and something that we spoke about. when she came on was,
um, when they did the walk together, how the kids didn't have to talk about
their parents injuries, but they got on really well almost because of it,
because they had that common thing. And that's, it's not something that a lot
like there would be more kids going through it than we would think, but, uh,
they wouldn't speak about it.

So for them to be in that same environment together, , and just
know what each other's going through at home, sometimes that would be really
nice for them. So well done. Yeah.

Mark Thomas:

Yeah,
and that, and look, I've sort of thought, you know, with this and like you talk
about Sarah and her kids, Pia and Alana, , from emergency and yourself and
like, you know, all the, all the, you know, the, the families I know here with
their kids, you know, like it's, it's, yeah, it's pretty, it's super cool.

Yeah. And knowing, you know, to be able to send the kids away,
, have that week of adventure, and I can just imagine some of them will be off
their heads having fun. This is awesome. , there'll be some boys or, and, and,
you know, suitably some girls too, just they won't shower or wash for a week.
They'll be, they'll be next to the river, canoeing, camping, staying up all
night talking.

They'll have a ball. So, yeah,

Rosie Skene:

yeah.
Any water is a shower, right? If you're in the river or the beach, it doesn't
matter. It's

Mark Thomas:

water.
It's really dirty, but it's water that works.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
that's amazing. Is there anything else that you wanted to have a chat about
today?

Mark Thomas:

Uh, no,
but thank you for, thank you for the air time and being the first repeat guest.

That's pretty cool.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
I'm pretty excited actually. I just had a look before you episode 12 and now
you're going to be episode. 32, I think, because I'll, I'll release it next
week, so it's nice and close to your launch.

Mark Thomas:

Yeah,
and I think I said it last time in ep 12, , yeah, it's awesome that you are
doing your part, , and because that gives people like us You know, it gave me a
voice to talk about my journey the first time, but it also, it's now giving,
you know, the foundation and the book and the camp even more airtime and like
we, we can put out all the stuff on socials and websites and things like that.

But then when you've got people like yourself who come in and
give. The airtime, yeah, super, super appreciative, which, you know, it's all
education, but for people out there who don't really know what it's like, or
people who, you know, are within, , the first responder, , workforce or were,
or, you know, a lot can be adapted to the military.

It gives people an insight as to, okay, so now. What they can
learn from us than they can do for their partners and their kids and themselves
if they are the ones that are injured. So very grateful for your time and your
effort.

Rosie Skene:

No,
you're very welcome. I think it's all about working together, isn't it? And
increasing everyone's literacy about it and especially the kids.

Like I said, you know, I struggled to talk to my kids about it,
just knowing what to say. This is going to be amazing. I can see it in
psychologist office everywhere. I can see it at police stations and fiery
stations. And I think, um, you've done a really beautiful thing, you and your
team. And I think the Code Nine Foundation is amazing, and I'm happy to support
you whenever you need.

So thank you for coming on.

Mark Thomas:

Thanks
again, Rosie. Massively appreciate it. .

Rosie Skene:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.