Rosie Skene:

Hello,
welcome, and thank you for tuning into episode 33 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. I
want to start this episode by expressing a huge amount of gratitude. Recently,
a few listeners have reached out to share, , what the podcast has meant to
them. And it has been incredibly humbling to hear how much these conversations
resonate.

Podcasting can be a bit of a solo endeavour, and sometimes I do
wonder if anyone out there is connecting with what's shared here. Hearing that
people are finding value, feeling seen, and even gaining a sense of validation,
that means the absolute world to me. Knowing that listeners feel less alone,
especially through difficult times, is why I started this journey.

So, thank you. To everyone who's listened, subscribed, or
shared this podcast, I thank you. Your support and connection mean more than
any words can say.

And on that note. If you would like to support the ongoing work
of Triumph Beyond Trauma, there's now a simple way to help me keep the podcast
running smoothly.

You can now show your support by buying me a coffee for just 5
or more. If you're feeling generous, you can help me cover things like editing
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Tactical Yoga Australia.

Alrighty, now on to today's guest, Mark Elm. Mark has had an
incredibly varied and impactful career from his time in East Timor on a
peacekeeping mission to his role as protocol officer and parade commander at
the Police Academy in New South Wales. We'll hear some fascinating stories from
these chapters of his life, and we'll also dive into his work as Superintendent
of the SES during the 2022 floods in northern NSW.

Something we didn't get to acknowledge was the support that
Mark received from his wife Loreto so we decided that we could add something
here in the intro to do just that.

On focusing toward the often unseen yet incredibly powerful
role of support systems during high stress situations, Mark acknowledges the
role his supportive wife Loreto played while he was performing his role as a
superintendent and commander of the Northern Rivers Command within the NSW SES.
During the record breaking floods in 2022, while Mark's leadership and
commitment were tested to the limit, it was his wife Loreto who stood
steadfastly by his side.

With a deep understanding of the PTSD he was clinically
diagnosed with, Loretto became his anchor, providing not just support and
stability, but also love and compassion during a time when the demands of his
duty reached unprecedented heights. Her unwavering presence and empathy were
vital in helping Mark navigate the mental and emotional toll of leading rescue
and relief efforts with authenticity during one of the state's most devastating
natural disasters in its history.

I'd like to give a shout out to all the partners and friends
who support their first responders, veterans and frontline workers through
tough times. It is not an easy gig and only one that can come from love. So
thank you for being by our side. . .

Rosie Skene:

Welcome
to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Mark Elm, welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma. Thank you so much
for joining me today.

Mark Elm:

Thanks,
Rosie. Pleasure to be here.

Rosie Skene:

So great
to talk to you. . Usually I start with, , everyone's journey in the career that
they've chosen. And for you, it was New South Wales Police with a few
secondments

So would you like to
talk about that a little bit and what led you in that direction?

Mark Elm:

Yeah, so
basically I joined, , I've heard some of your podcasts, right? So some of your
guests and they talk about that prep, for example, for those that don't know,
it was the police recruit education program and I joined, I went down with
class 243 and we were quite a large class, it was another one of those periods
in time where there's election promises and the government pumps in a lot of
money into police recruitment for law and order and I was one of those and so I
went there.

Through the Academy between October 89 and April of 1990. , and
from there, from that Academy experience, , I landed at King's Cross. , in
Sydney, for those which know it.

Rosie Skene:

A nice
quiet little spot.

Mark Elm:

Yeah, just,
uh, you know, your typical red light district. Six and a half square kilometres
of mayhem.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And how did you find it there?

Because I know that you were there at a really interesting time
in the New South Wales Police Force with the Royal Commission around there as
well. , how did you find it?

Mark Elm:

I think at
the end of the day, , my background is, I think when I draw on that, I call it
my loss of, , innocence phase in life.

I did, uh, four years in hospitality prime.

I'm a dad owned restaurants when hospitality, so I sort of had
worked and had life experience, but what I would say is that when I went to the
cross. I saw things I hadn't really expected in such a, it's almost like full
strength red cordial, right? For a policing environment. And you, you're senior
pretty quick.

I think three months, you know, I was the senior on the truck
and, and that wasn't uncommon in Sydney district. So back in the day it was a
district and have we returned to districts? I think they have. I think so.
Yeah. Yeah. So what I'd say is that for me. And with my background, quite
civilized, I would have thought, I still do, , going into a, like a, an animal
house, basically, and it hits you between the eyes in many ways, and culture,
police culture, you know, a bit of a boof head culture in some respects, and I
say that lovingly, , because we all become a bit of a boof head when we do it,
and I think it's really dealing with a great unwashed, but, you know, at the
very heart of it, what we must remember in all communities is, um, You know,
general members of the public going about their lawful business.

In their own community, , and we sometimes lose sight of that
when we see, say, we talk about the cross, we talk about the Druitt we talk
about Green Valley, where nothing's ever green, but, , the old joke, but
they're all got communities, haven't they?

And some are a bit substandard and, but, you know, we've got a
cross section of the community everywhere and our job is there to serve them.

And I found that to be the attractive part of it. And, you
know, the other really thing that really struck to me, it was very addictive.
Thursday nights, Friday nights, Saturday nights. They're your busy times, and
they're the times where the great sense of, I'll call it the brotherhood, um,
of policing, policing culture comes out, and you look after each other, and you
really do.

So yes, we had some challenging times with the Royal
Commission, and it went where it went, and, uh, it, but it really solidified
good policing as well in that area, and highlighted some good policing as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah,

Mark Elm:

yeah,

Rosie Skene:

I can
imagine that you would have had a lot of camaraderie to at that time in that
particular place and how busy it was, like you said, that full strength red
cordial.

I like that. Yeah, so it would have fostered a lot of good
connections as well.

Mark Elm:

I think so.
And I think when you, when you, when you usually paired up in those sort of
inner city areas at the time, , maybe more, , depending on the night, depending
on the coverage. And boots would, we had a beach unit. That's when they kicked
off a big.

community based policing, uh, I suppose, program, , throughout
New South Wales, actually. But because it's such a, a small area, , with a
tight knit station, , you really look after each other. And they're good
people, you know, cops are great people. And, and I think when , you, you're in
a contact sport and no one can argue it and the legislation underpins what you
do.

And your job is to keep the community safe and take action. And
we did take action pretty, uh, I would say that we took it seriously. And we
took, um, behaviours of others seriously. So that means if someone needed to
have their head pulled, we'd do it. We do it through our legislative means.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Yep.

Rosie Skene:

So from
the cross, um, you moved around a little bit, just reading where you've been
and what you've done.

Did a few specialist roles and, you moved around, do you want
to talk about where you went after the cross?

Mark Elm:

Yeah, I
did. Look, I, I tried to really be, I needed a break after the cross. I just
did. I, I, I knew it that early, you know, I think, you know, Two weeks at the
cross is like three months in other areas, maybe more.

And it's so intense, you know, it's the red cordial thing. And
so I needed a break after five years. I needed a break. I did do a transfer in
between. It was about the four year mark. I went to Irmo, which is Ermington.
And. It just didn't wash with me. I had a run in with the boss as well over. I
was a police association rep and where I was a police association rep at Kings
Cross.

We worked really well with our commanders there, but when
you're dealing with what I would call a narcissist, it's very hard to win and
you're never going to win. So we both agreed that the best thing. I did was to
return to King's Cross. It's virtually not totally unheard of. I have another
good mate of mine who shall remain nameless who went back to King's Cross as
well through choice but he stayed for years and I went back and I was glad I
did because I missed the, I missed the adrenaline but at the five year mark
approximately I just thought nah, I've got to give it a break because I was
well and truly spent.

Um. Operationally. So I went to the field training and
assessment director, and I went there because I knew. The chair of police
legacy at the time, which I was serving on the board of management for police
legacy as a director, and he, he ran the field training assessment director.
His name was Phil Holder, a great man and, , got a spot there.

It's not what you know, is it really at the end of the day? And
I did go there and I enjoyed that. And that's where we look. We, we did credit
EDOs, Education Development Officers for their role, FTOs, And, , put
probationary councils on performance enhancement programs and one for another
word, , there's other words for that as well.

But, , we'd make sure everyone's being honest to what the
intent of the education requirements and their operational requirements were
number one. Um, you know, pros when they go out there, they have to do so much.
We all were one. And. , you need a body there to facilitate that to make sure
everyone's doing what they're supposed to be doing, including the probationary
council, but including the command and including the academy.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
I'm like what you were saying there because there is such a holistic approach.
It's not just a probationer that's responsible or the FTO like the command has
a responsibility as well. And as long as everyone's doing what they're supposed
to be doing, it makes it a lot easier to keep them. And. And educate them and
get them ready for being confirmed.

But then also, if it's not going to work out, then you've got
to dot your i's and cross your t's with that as well.

Mark Elm:

Yeah,
exactly right. So often, how often did you hear that someone's like a confirmed
Constable and above, are whinging about a pro who's about to be confirmed?
Well, mate, it helps if you put your reports in about that probe, and that way
we can do something in that 12 month period.

So, there's that level of response. But police are generally
fair as well. They don't want to put people on paper. No. Generally, and
culturally, that's the case, right?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Um, good,
bad, or indifferent. , but our job is to say, hey, this is your opportunity.
This is, this is about creating a better product. By doing that, we can
actually go about enhancing their performance.

If they can reach that. So it's, it's, it's about being fair to
everyone, but mostly about to the public of New South Wales and that we took
that seriously. So that was really good. , outside of that, , was when Ryan
came in and I then thought, you know what, I really want to, I want to get back
to operational police work.

And I went to, and it lasted for a short period of time.
Actually, I went to, , Katoomba, Katoomba. And did some duties up there. I
really enjoyed it. Then the boss who's out at Springwood. , decided to, ,
advertise the community safety officer role. I thought, oh, that'll be all
right. 26 Townships and Villages up the Blue Mountains, get your own vehicle, ,
I'll do that.

And I really needed a break. So, , I did get it and I got it
because I actually do believe in the tenets of community based policing, you
know, the old Peelian principles of policing and the maxims of the New South
Police Force, , all those sort of underpinning, , Requirements of what it is to
be a police officer, not separated from your community.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

So that was
cool. I think the other role I was doing and from about 1992, I did some OSG,
PSG at the time, it was a patrol support group. And that was back in Kings
Cross. So I did that for about 3 years in the, in Sydney district. And that was
like a part time unit. They still have it. I think they call them POOSK.

Weird, isn't it? Sounds awesome. Who thinks of these things.
And then, , and that was great because that really, I think it hones your
tactical skills, your officer safety skills. You obviously train a lot harder
for the more intense role. And, but also your, your ability to work as a team
is, is heightened in that way.

And there's a really large drill component in that and, but a
teamwork, it's free to call, um, but as long as it doesn't go to your head,
it's a healthy thing, right? And sometimes we say that go to people's heads and

Rosie Skene:

sometimes we do,

Mark Elm:

and I'd
never really subscribe to that. I would just really enjoy the specialty and, ,
the opportunities because.

The opportunities this job gives you is so immense. You know,
how many opportunities have already mentioned Yeah. What I was given, and I'm
really grateful for those opportunities. So that's, that was the o uh, the PSG.
Then it turned into OSG. So I was, in essence, I was a. , A basic operator out
of Sydney district, PSG, then it turned into city east, OSG, went out to
Macquarie region, OSG, which is out, you know, Western Sydney and the Blue
Mountains.

And then I was part of InterMet, OSG.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And you did some stuff at the Olympics.

Mark Elm:

Yeah, I did
the um, bond management role with OSG. So the great big sports carnival, , is,
uh, the Sydney Olympics was the safest ever apparently, , probably was. Um, it
was a great experience. There was a lot of Oscar Tango involved in that one, a
lot of cancelled rest days, a lot of, , overtime.

And, , that was actually, , it enabled me to have a very good
holiday up in Queensland afterwards. , and just reconnect with my family who
lived up there. So that was really good.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Nice.

Mark Elm:

Enjoyed
that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
bet. I would have been a good one. , In 2003 you were seconded to the AFP for a
peacekeeping mission in East Timor with the United Nations.

I'd love to know how that came about for you. And I just find
that I really find that so interesting that you're able to do that from New
South Wales police. I didn't actually think that was a possibility. So I'd love
to hear about that .

Mark Elm:

Yeah, cool.
, basically, they, , in effect kicked off, , in around 1999, that followed a
very small, , UN deployment by AFP members, um, who traditionally, not
traditionally, but being the mainstays of all overseas deployments for
Australian policing, and only on a few occasions do they let other state and
territories in, and it's usually when their numbers just can't sustain the
requirements, and so this happened.

In around 1999, UNAMET was the first one, INEFFECT came in,
UNTEYET was the next, and then I came in UNTEYET, and then I did UNMESET, which
was the United Nations Mission of Support in East Timor, which had a law
enforcement role and executive role in policing and supervision and handing
over some areas.

How it came about was they just advertised it, very
competitive, , we only sent 41, , New South Wales police to, , East Timor,
bearing in mind in the 70s and 60s. , I think even early 80s, we were sending,
deploying police over to, through the Commonwealth Police before the AFP, and
we were sending them to Cyprus.

So, , and some of your listeners might have even been involved
in those deployments, but really such a big honour, isn't it? You know, you get
to Peacekeep, not many people know about it. In fact, not many people know
about it at all. Those which do know about it, if they're not involved, they'll
usually say, how was your holiday?

Bye. Yeah. Yeah, mate. Great. Awesome. , it's intense work. It
is policing and it is, but you're also an observer. So you're reporting human
rights abuses and you're living in a paramilitary environment or a military
environment where our area of operations was theatre East Timor for the
Australian army. So I would say that we were living, um, in a warlike area.

The doing peacekeeping operations. So it's in doing policing.
So it's quite a unique environment. Unlike the military. Um, we weren't given
forward operating basis to operate out. We didn't go in mass like a battalion
size. We were very, uh, we were living in the community, um, without, um,
adequate pickets and security and, um, hot and cold running water.

We basically have to source your own accommodation. So it's a
completely different environment, but on the bright side of it. Um, it's a, I,
I call it the boys own adventure, even though it's, you know, all genders. And,
, what I've, what I liked about it was it really. I really saw my weaknesses
and I really saw my strengths out of it when you live like that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

I think
you learn a lot about yourself when you go through any sort of trauma or
difficulties in your life. If, depending on your mindset at the time, it might
not come straight away. But, , there's a lot to learn in those sort of
situations, isn't there?

Mark Elm:

Yeah, I
think that's it.

Absolutely. I think, you know, I think it comes down to all
your senses being active, right? So do you ever go holidaying overseas, for
example, or anywhere for that matter, all your senses are activated. Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. Um, your sight, , your taste, your smell, your touch. And so when you
think that, and then you're going into this really uncertain operational
environment.

And your eyes are like a child that open up and sees your
perspective, but you've got a really good tactical role to do over there and a
complex role involving multinational partnerships, diplomacy at a scale that we
probably don't deal with locally, but at the end of the day, if you can keep it
real and you can keep it, um, community driven, it's awesome.

And it's really, I think Australian police are awesome and we
can go anywhere in the world and make our, make our path our own and the
community just resonates with that style, you know, style of policing.

Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We're pretty laid back, aren't we? But

Mark Elm:

when we
need to be.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

, when your name came up through a mutual connection, I
recognised it immediately. And I said, I actually said to him, I'm like, I know
that name, but I don't know where from.

And it took me ages, but
then I realised I saw a picture of you In your full, , dress uniform and I was
like, oh, that's where I know it must have been. That guy. I know him and you
were the protocol officer and parade commander when I was in Goulburn back in,
when was it, 2007. So, That's when I would have first met you and not realised
and then I was actually talking to my husband and I thought, , if someone would
have said to me back then that I would be talking to you today, I would have
first said what's a podcast, but also like no way would that have happened
because, , you had this presence about you that I just, I remember and I know
that a lot of people would.

And I was like, Oh, how could I forget? You know, I was well
loved, huh? Yeah. And that's what I want to talk about a little bit too,
actually. But I'd love to hear about how that came about that time of your
career, if you're happy to share it.

From my perspective, being there as a recruit. , you commanded
the utmost respect, like the presence, but the presence that you held yourself,
like the way that you held yourself, you commanded that for sure.

You know, in the meal room, anywhere in the college, , I feel
like it's sort of like when you see a highway patrol car driving past and you
hit the brakes immediately, you're not doing anything wrong, but it's, it's
similar, you know, um, But even when I returned to the academy as a sworn
police officer, I still, , got that vibe from you, but which is all the role,
right? You know, um, the way you carried yourself, you fulfilled that role, I
think perfectly and, and did what you needed to do in that role to be, , that
person at Goulburn. And I think, I don't know many people that could do that
either, , to put yourself in that situation made a lasting impression for sure.

Like that's, that's the role that you had, .

But I also reflect that
that must have been, , a somewhat maybe lonely and isolating role. And I think
I, I would never have thought that back then, but now, being what I've been
through and I just think about things a lot deeper.

Yeah.

. So is that how it was for you? How did you come about to
being there? And how did you find it? And I'd love to hear about that because
that's obviously not a role that many police would ever.

Mark Elm:

Well, I
aspire to really for that matter,

it came, well, it came about simply by, uh, uh, a commander of
a unit ringing me and saying, Hey, would you consider applying for the position
I had in the lead up to it?

I was seconded to the AFP for another gig. And that was the
dedication of the National Police Memorial. And we did a lot of drill
facilitation projects and a lot of stuff to get everyone on the same page in
terms of drill standards. So we use the Australian PAMs of the Australian Army
Drill Manual. Um, and we got everyone on the same page, and it was necessary to
do because it, it's a standard that works.

It's, it has a very clear correlation back to public order and
what police are doing, and that's where my, um, my passion comes from, I guess,
is it's that operational connection to that, and that extends to what the role
is, right? So, you know, if you think about your tactical options model. Um,
and you're talking about the centre that is communication, but your presence,
right?

So it's your presence. It's about respect of yourself. If you
can't respect yourself, you can't get that squared away. How can you respect
the community in which you're serving? How can you square away your paperwork?
Now, a lot of people don't see that correlation, but that's the reality of it,
right? So when you walk into a park, I know that back in the day, I could walk
into a room.

I would command the presence of the room.

Rosie Skene:

A
hundred percent.

Mark Elm:

Do you
remember saying, and I'm not saying that this is my idol or anything, but I'm
just, I saw something recently on Instagram and I'll use it. It's like the
actor who played the Terminator cop. Do you remember that? And he was
describing it and I thought, yeah, that, that, that resonates with me.

And basically he got his movements of running after Arnold
Schwarzenegger, for example. And he, he wasn't, his frame was nowhere near him
and I'm not a big guy, right? And I just correlated on so many levels. And he
said, my character was basically, I lined it to that of an eagle. A hunter for
the pursuit and I've been that way minded from my days at the cross.

It's, you know, I'm like a dog with a bone. It's not an
apollyonic syndrome. It's simply now I've got a job to do and I'll go down
fighting if I have to. And so when you're doing the protocol gig at Goulburn
and you're the only senior sergeant there doing it and you're really one of. A
few police really enforcing discipline standards, um, you're a bit of a, not a
predator, but you're certainly, you're in the pursuit of excellence and I, and
I think what really, it's, you're so dogmatic about it, but you can be
respectful about it as well.

So, really, in answering to your question and really breaking
that down, um, it is isolating because you're the only one doing it. And in
some cases, we had some principles come in, which were fantastic. And we had
some principles, which were abhorrent and the ones which were fantastic, really
valued the traditions.

Of the New South Wales police force, you know, that's why I did
some projects down there to honour the history. And I was a project manager for
the In the Line of Duty exhibition. We, I did that in Canberra as well, but we
brought it up to New South Wales, tailored it to New South Wales. I'm using the
term Royal We, but I got it funded by the organisation.

Um, why that was important was the history of policing, 1862.
When did the Australian Army kick off? 1901. Put that in perspective.

Now, there were regiments, right? There were a whole bunch of
military units throughout the whole of colony of New South Wales where its
borders changed. And, , so the history is really fascinating, right?

So, , I think when one goes into that role, you know what it's
going to be like. You've got a great Responsibility to be that person and know
that at every single given moment, everyone's looking at you.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Mark Elm:

But is that
not any different than when you go out and you rock out as a constable on the
truck?

Everyone's looking at you.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

So by role
modelling and yeah, people are going to think, Oh, Sergeant seatbelt is the
nickname they give it because you're wearing the Sam Brown belt and strap and
you've got the tippy tappy shoes on, which are high shine boots with cleats.
You've got, you know, uniform is pressed immaculately.

Um, you, your hair is always square. At the time I didn't have
any hair cause I shaved it off. But at the end of the day, you have to be that
persona. You're the only bloke walking around outside of a Sydney position with
a pace stick as part of your badge of office. So that's for a reason because I
can guarantee you, it's quite funny.

I used to laugh inwardly about the experience as well. I took
it seriously, but you'd see. Right. And they'd be at the opposite end of the
quadrangle and they'd nick off just to get out of your sight. And it just, it
makes you smile a little bit.

Rosie Skene:

Please
don't see me. Please don't see

Mark Elm:

me. But the
best thing you do, I never really beasted anyone out in my time there.

And it was always getting into their close personal space and
getting really close and just basically talking in muted times to them. So
basically put your head in, but, And you just, uh, address their dress and
bearing and, you know, it's an academy environment and you've got to remember
why Ken Maroney implemented that position, re implemented that position,
because for a while it was out.

Because when the university kicked in, and we won't say the
university, , but when they came in, they lessened all standards. It became a
university campus. But the reality was we were getting all these undisciplined
people out into the, , into the commands, but they didn't give a rat. And power
corrupts, right?

So it was about buying back the farm by Maroney and I respect
that decision greatly. And I think, quietly, when people start to realise that,
they understand the value of it.

Rosie Skene:

For sure.
Yeah, I would have been, , how long were you there for?

Mark Elm:

I was there
from 20, uh, sorry, 2017. Oh, no, it wasn't. 2007

through to 2014. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Oh, that's a
long time to do that role.

Mark Elm:

Yeah, it
was. It was probably just the right time to do that role.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. What
made you, what was the decision to leave?

Mark Elm:

I wanted
to, oh, there was a whole range of factors. I think my last, the last principal
who commanded that facility, I thought was, um, unprofessional.

And I need to. And there was two following each other. And I
just thought, you know, I'm too fatigued. You can't, you've got to, you've
really got to be supported in that role. If you're not supported in that role
for what you do, if they don't see the value in it, it's, it's, and you're the
largest police recruiter in the country, and they want to lessen standards.

How can you morally support that? Do that role like I live by
my word. And at the end of the day, I just sought to get out. So I went to my
transfer papers. I think it was a surprise to everybody. And I put my transfer
papers into Coward's Castle, which is Police Headquarters, as we all know it
by. So from the College of Knowledge to Coward's Castle and.

And I was just, I wanted to go operational. I so desperately
wanted to go operational, but as a senior sergeant, there's two positions in
the whole state as senior sergeant. So I was limited. So I ended up at, um, uh,
police headquarters in Parramatta and, , went to, , in the HR command there
into a role and where I ironically got cleaned up.

Yeah, I mean, that'd be a cool accident. The irony of it. All
right. ,

Rosie Skene:

yeah,
because you're working in the headquarters, but actually out in the car. What
do you want to talk about that? And how that?

Mark Elm:

Yeah, we
used to, , part of HR commands duties, uh, in the, in the role I was doing,
we'd go out to community events to promote the organization to a section of the
community.

And we did that and we did it quite effectively. , but on the
way back from that duty. We stopped on the Mitchell Highway out between, ,
Wellington and Orange, and I think Becker's Marsh, and I was stationed there as
a driver. , and I got, um, hit up the rear end at 120 Ks. And that experience
was the straw that broke the camel's back.

And what not many people realise, I was car carrying some P
undiagnosed PTS. Symptoms, , major depressive disorder symptoms and really
wasn't in a healthy space from East Timor in 2003. So, but I also think there
was some elements of that from working at the Cross, to be honest, and I, this
thing, it just rattled me and with the physical injuries, which I suffered
along with the mental.

Anxiety and the trauma I suffered and it came at the same time
as I was going through a, , quite an interesting divorce at the time is how I
word it and custody, , issue, I, my world collapsed. And I, and I, you know,
I'm quite dignified and I don't bag out anyone unnecessarily if they're not
there to defend themselves, so I won't do that.

But, you know, it takes two to tango always as well, you know,
if you're going to be real, you've got to be real about what your contribution
is to that environment.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Um, so, but
what I'm saying is everything just went, I went from, you know, the old saying,
zero to hero, we'll reverse that and, and you just kind of go, well, but what
now?

Yeah. So I hung on for two years.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Um,
couldn't jag a, a transfer as a senior sergeant. Um, and, um, I ended up in a
world of pain for a number of years.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So
not only physical pain, but mental as well. How did you work

Mark Elm:

through
that? Really interesting. I, I think psychologically anyone who's gone through
it at some point, there's some comfort with people caring about you.

Finally.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Like, ,
you're the attention. I don't know if you're like me or your listeners are like
me, but I got sick of telling my own story.

Rosie Skene:

Oh my
God. Yeah.

Mark Elm:

And, and,
and so I really, I remember waking up, I was living at West Pennant Hills at
that time. I was in this crappy little place, what I could afford at the time,
, underneath another bloke was really toxic.

Um, cause we're all a victim, right? , and I'll talk about
victimhood, but here I was, I gained an enormous amount of weight. I couldn't
do any exercise in my mind. I couldn't. I couldn't think and I was angry.

I was hurting. I woke up crying, so unlike me to do that, but I
did. And I woke up and I looked in the mirror and I didn't recognise the body.

I didn't recognise who I was. And I was really, I don't even
know if it, you know, how time just distorts. I don't know if it was at the
time or later when I read David Goggin's It wasn't, I didn't read anything. I
had, it was an audio. I couldn't read even a sentence at the time. Um, my
whole, I'd actually lost, , thought processes, uh, short term memory loss.

, and I also had like loss of muscle memory or down my left
hand side, almost like you suffer a stroke. So it wasn't myself. So I was in
this world of hurt and pain and, and I was suffered a lot of loss over lack of
contact with my boy and. It was just incredibly hard and, and I had suicidal
ideation at that point.

And I woke up and I remember just looking at myself and the
words of Goggins kicks in and he basically says, you know, you got to look at
the accountability mirror and basically that, you know, if you're fat, you're
fat, why are you fat and you drill down to where the seed is, right? And you
just go through everything, you know, why am I balding?

Well, you know, it's hereditary or blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And you just call it for what it is, whatever that is. And it's about
being accountable to yourself. And the biggest, the, the words that were
ringing in my mind at the time was stuff I used to actually preach. And that
was, are you a victim? Like, are you really a victim?

And the answer to that is, nah, I'm not a victim. But why are
you acting like one then? So. Give you, um, basically give yourself an
uppercut, wake up to yourself and get on with it. So I separated myself from
the insurance process. I just kicked it off like don't want to play. I'll do it
myself because you know, you're well aware as most of your listeners probably
would be.

The difficulties if you go through that system of going through
insurance, it's an insurance scheme. You've got the insurance company, which
doesn't pay on time to therefore your treatment is delayed or ceased. I would
have had more psych Assessments by in the so called independents than I had
actual treaters and that's when you realise this is wrong I'm gonna take
carriage of this myself and just do it myself and I did yeah Stepped away from
it.

I don't want to stay in that place I did the math and people
tell you to go on your worst day and To be your worst, all you're doing is
you're not, you're not being true to yourself because everyone has a bad day,
you know, could go for a decade, but you're going to get through it and you are
going to get through it.

So you have to be honest to yourself. And that's what I did.

Yeah. A bit
of

Mark Elm:

self
examination. Honestly,

Rosie Skene:

I think
the ones that honestly get through it, everyone has the ability to get through
it. But what I've learned is the ones that can do it a little bit quicker are
the ones that take carriage of it themselves and say, yeah.

Okay. Let's do this. We need to do X, Y, and Z. Um, and, and
like you said, take that accountability because really no one's doing it for
you. That's the thing you have to show up for yourself and you can have all the
support in the world, but if you don't want to do it yourself, then you're not
going to get anywhere.

Mark Elm:

It's really
interesting. A couple of things I did and I did, I did all the holistic stuff,
you know, and all the left to centre stuff. And I did some really interesting
stuff, some of which I won't talk about,

but I stepped outside my comfort zone. And I, what I found from
going through the experiences of going through some different modalities, and I
could never do yoga.

And I know you're a yoga instructor. In fact, my wife, she's a
yoga instructor, but I could never do it. And they say, well, the person who
can't do it is the one who needs to do it right now. But I literally couldn't
do it. My body just didn't. Work that way. But I was doing sound healing. I was
doing rainforest bathing.

Have you heard of that? Do you know what that is? I've heard

Rosie Skene:

of that.
Yeah. I have never done it though.

Mark Elm:

Yeah. Um,
what it is, is you go into a, I didn't know what it was. I thought it was like,
we'll go for a swim underneath a waterfall or something. I was really looking
forward to it. And when they told me what it was and I was doing, I'm going,
Oh, we're going for a walk in a rainforest.

And we're looking at, and we're focusing on leaves and
surprisingly. Um, it was actually very therapeutic. I was doing all sorts of
stuff and I did one which really pushed my, um, my recovery to another level.
And I won't talk about it because that's another topic when I'm comfortable in
talking about it.

But I don't think everyone would understand. But I did this
journey where spiritually I was, , I was conflicted and I had a number of
awakenings in this moment in time and it was really good for me. And my body
from going through this certain experience, I'm talking very abstract here and
everyone's going, what the hell did he do?

But you can work it out for yourselves. But basically I did it
and my life changed. I had this A change in mindset. I came out loving, I came
out, um, non-judgmental, what's called a death of ego experience. We all have an
ego. We build another one. Don't worry about that. Um, and. I came away or
awakened from that experience non-judgmental, which was great because I needed
that and like showing love to everybody now from my background that would have
been near impossibility prior.

So I did this and what I found really intriguing was. I went to
mom and mom's place and my mom and dad, I'm very close to them and I'm laughing
and I'm just, and mom stopped me and she said words to the effect of, oh, hang
on, I'm using those other phrases. Um, she said words to the effect of, gee,
mark, you just, just like you used to be.

And I looked alike. And she goes, you're laughing. Like before
you were in the police force.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

And I've
gone, oh wow, I didn't realise, I hadn't realised that I'd been so harsh. And
I, I was always conservative, but I hadn't realised that I'd shut off my
humanity. I always had a heart to people though, right?

But you, you protect it. You put this big, you have to, because
otherwise you go. That's right. I was about to use some language, probably not
trauma informed there for a while. Like say, you know, you stark raving mad,
but the reality is you would, you know, you would affect you so adversely and
you do it to protect yourself, right?

Because no one wants to open up those flood gates because
what's going to come out.

Rosie Skene:

You're
told not to as well, you know, you're told not to show any emotion when you go
to jobs and you're told to do all these things and it's hard because that's
what happens, you know, and then it just is an automatic thing and then it
starts happening at home.

And the emotion at home sometimes, and it's, it's hard.

Mark Elm:

Well, isn't
it funny? There's two, two elements to that. The first thing is the showing
emotion at home. Why would you even convey what you're going through to the
person you love?

You're not going to do that. Or you co exist with. Um, you,
the, the other point of that is when you're at a job, you've got to be their
strength.

You've got to be the victim strength, the witnesses strength.
You've got to be the community strength. So there's a lot running, holding . On
your shoulders, the weight is huge, and it's not just one job, right? And in a
shift, depending on where you are, it's full on all the time. You're going back
to back to back to back.

And the range of jobs you're going from in an operational
context is huge. There's got to be a breaking point that it's just doesn't. In
fact, what's normal, right?

Rosie Skene:

What is,
what is it?

Mark Elm:

I don't
know when you let me know. I don't think I don't. I don't think there is a
normal and I think there is normal, you know, there's norms and standards and
behaviours and your stuff we as a society will cop. But, you know, we see some
strange things now, right? Strange ideals and trying to get your head around it
sometimes makes you think you're living in another planet and probably we are.

But at the end of the day, I think what we are talking about is
just good form, poor form. And I think we've crossed on some of those subjects
today. Um, you know, organisational, um, I think, yeah, this is the other point
I wanted to make out of all this experience, you know, some of the awakenings
for me is the moral injury

you go through on a day to day basis in that organisation.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. And that's something that they're doing quite a bit of research on now
too is, is injury and embitterment, um, which is really hard to work through
if, if you get stuck in that place of embitterment towards people or the
organisation as a whole.

And I think it really does. a disservice to people in their
healing journey. If they, if they're stuck in that place of embitterment, it's
really hard. And you can see it if you talk to people that have left, , and
they're in that space, if you've moved through it or you haven't had that, you
can see it's really strong with some people.

Um, and they've had a really tough time. So, yeah, I don't
know. It's, it's such a bizarre, I don't know, some people call it injury or
illness, PTS, but, , there's, there's so much to it. There's so many little
components, especially coming from, you know, a police organisation or a first
responder or veteran organisation.

There's so many different components to that. , it's, it's
tricky.

Mark Elm:

I think
it's, uh, there's a great book out there and, Most of your police listeners
will probably have read it at some point, and the police association was big on
handing it out. And it meant having the author come out and talk about it.

And that was the book called Emotional Survival for Law
Enforcement Officers and their Families. It's a guide for officers and their
families. Dr. Kevin Gilmartin is the author. And it's a fantastic text, really.
It's something which every recruit should be given. And I would say just swap
out law enforcement to any high stress career, maybe every job, because our
identities are so interlinked with who we are, unfortunately.

Um, yeah, so I think, I
think they're really important.

Considerations as we navigate injury, you know, mental illness,
I hate the term that's what we've got to use, right? That's how we're all
framed. It's such, I don't know anyone who's not mental. It is not mentally
ill, um, and I shouldn't, I don't like using that terminology and it's not
ideal. Um, but what I will say is everyone's going through life issues.

And sometimes those issues are bigger than ourselves, right?
And how do we navigate that? A lot of it is communication. A lot of it is an
understanding about who we are. And sometimes we get lost in who we are, which
we were talking about earlier, right? Um, it's big in the veteran space, for
example, and it's big in policing.

It's big in the ambos, it's big in the fire, so first
responders. Um, it's, you're losing sight of who you are, which. Is it helping
you? So I think that, you know, Gilmartin's work, , on being holistic, , by not
getting rid of yourself through your life purpose of your career, , is
interesting. I was listening to some of your, um, your, your podcast guests.

And what they were saying, and I, I think, you know, when I,
when I reflect on what I was talking about in the main about how

I think the main, the main thing here is we lose sight of who
we are because the bureaucratic nature and the uncaring nature of leadership.
Or the lack of leadership. Um, it's actually morally repugnant how we see some
of our organizations established. Yes, it's fine to have a command and control
system.

It's necessary in a, in a high context, high impact role, no
matter what that is. It's necessary because things people like human resources
have to be deployed in certain areas to get certain jobs, unthankful jobs done
that shouldn't never occupy the way a leader in an organization sees himself
over and above.

The subordinates, and I'll use that term. I'm using it for a
reason, and I think that's the failings of the system, you know, academy
environment. We teach certain things for a reason. It's to embed that
instinctive reaction to obeying a lawful command, and that's important because
we give them when we go out operationally.

So it's really important. You can only do it if you know how to
do it. Take it yourself, right? So, but it's never about abuse of power, and it
should never be about abuse of power. Unfortunately,

I think when you're in an environment like that, too, with the
rank structure and leaders that only works when the right people are there
doing the jobs.

And if, like you say, that they're not respectful of the people
that they work with. Um, you know, it's a house of cards, isn't it? It just
starts falling down, which is, you know, what we start to see across the
country with retention rates, really, you know, people leaving because they're
not happy, happy people don't leave

jobs.

No, that's right. . Now, I know where I reside, up in the north
coast of New South Wales, a figure was given to me at the beginning of the
year, and it was like, they're running at 40 percent first response strength at
the local police district.

40%. So what we are invariably doing, people have gone off
broken or gone away and they've moved on. Um, but that's left 40 percent of
hard workers being loaded up way beyond their capability and their capacity.
And that's when we have to say, what are we doing to them? And what is, we need
to address this urgently across the country.

How do we do it? I've got some ideas, but it's not up to me to
put that forward because I think it's that way by my pay grade. But I think
it's, it's always, it's always got to do with, yeah. What's the must do's in
policing and what's the nice to haves. So the must do's are your first
responsibility.

Everyone should be a police officer first and foremost. Now,
there are some other roles which are necessary, but some can be, um, not so
much privatized, but some can be actually non sworn positions. I'll put it that
way. Um, but how many of the jobs have you seen? Which are totally unnecessary.

They're like a pet project.

And whilst the poor senior Connie on the truck is being Having
that extra weight of that extra bar, if we've got those now, um, I'm being
facetious, but that weight of responsibility on them to hold the fort and their
moral responsibility they will have in themselves and you hear it. I still have
contacts in the job at all ranks and not all ranks because I don't speak to all
ranks.

Those up on high in the main, um, what I would say is that they
are feeling a huge weight of responsibility to hold it together. If they're not
to do it, who will? But the problem is there's a breaking point.

Rosie Skene:

That's it,
and I don't know, the more that leave, the more pressure that's on the people
that are there, that are good, , people, and we need them there, but, they
can't, they can only do so much, and the breaking point will become quicker,
and, I don't know, it's, it's a vicious little cycle, that one, um, I wanna
talk to you about your identity though, post policing.

How did you, yeah, yeah. Um, how did you overcome, you know, e
everyone? I, I don't believe that anyone would not suffer a loss of identity
after leaving an organization like the police. Um, because like you said, you
know, we all have that. To a degree that little bit in the uniform and it's a
pride thing and especially in the roles that you performed.

Um, you couldn't have done it without a sense of pride and
purpose. So how, how have you overcome and have you moved through maybe not
overcome, but have you moved through that journey of identity and, and where
are you now with it?

Mark Elm:

My first
response was, and it's really funny, everyone talks about their first day away
from the job.

It's really difficult. Or, it's like this huge weight I think a
combination of both. It's really difficult. It's like sad. Like, who am I now?
And I certainly felt that for a period of time. But this sense of relief, like,
thank God I don't have to go and do that mandatory re qualification shit. Not
that I didn't enjoy it.

In fact, I loved it, but wasn't it a pain in the bum sometimes
to do that?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
actually, I was a weapons instructor. I know you really enjoyed that, but like
other things I didn't enjoy so much. So yeah, I get it.

Mark Elm:

But I,
like, I also enjoyed it. It was, as you get older, I remember doing a re my
last re

certification in the OSG, I was getting up there and I was
getting shin splints and I was really sore. And I thought, and that year was a
quiet year in terms of OSG. I was like, why am I doing it? It's like, it's
killing me. And it's, and it's almost like, and I've subsequently fixed that
issue. But, um, well, so the rest of my body's breaking.

My legs are fine. Um, the reality is that. I felt my loss of
identity because you think about like, I'm really, I'm probably on the spectrum
and no doubt I am, but the, I don't think anyone in protocol role is, love you
guys. I think we all

Rosie Skene:

are. I think
everyone's on the spectrum to some degree. I

Mark Elm:

think with
it, with me, and when I look at it, the amount of symbology, what a police
officer wears on their uniform, and when you're in protocol, you really to pay
attention to it, right?

Because you research it, you know that. Background to it, you
know, how many crowns are you wearing on your uniform from your buttons to
your, to your, um, your patches on either side of the arms through to it.
That's symbology to your rank, depending on what rank you hold, um, to the
ranks you hold. What does that look like?

Um, to different coloured nameplates to et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera. So that's your identity, right? And there's, you know, your title, you
know, I am, my name is. And you put your rank and then you give your name and
always made me falter a bit. Um, I am, um, senior sergeant, blah, but my point
is that that is your identity.

And especially when you breathe it and live it like I did. And
I think like the role was way too big than what I was. I was, to be honest, and
in terms of the protocol gig down in Goulburn, because it's such a big role,
and you know, largest police recruiter in the Southern Hemisphere, um, person
in the main doing consistently, enforcement, address bearing and discipline and
knowing the history and all the rest of it, that's a big weight on your
shoulders, so you really know your identity, and it's so intrinsically linked
to that, and failure in any breakdown of discipline is linked to you, so
therefore, when you lose that, and when it, is taken away from you or drifts
off, depending on what your usage of language is around that and how you frame
that.

If you frame it in a negative way, it's going to hit hard. It's
going to be a big fall. And it was a bit of a big fall for me, but I became
very bitter. And in fact, I packed everything away. I threw some stuff out and
I sort of regret doing that to a degree. And I didn't have anything hanging up
like I was presented with some really nice gifts at my farewell, which took me
six months to do and I only hand selected.

I think there was like 25 people at my farewell. I was very
emotional and, but I had so much anger and bitterness but that's about then
going, waking yourself up and go and give yourself a uppercut, mate, and just
push on and take control. So, in order to do that, what did I do?

I packed everything away. I, um, that was part bitterness, part
protection. I didn't want to be reminded of any of it. Um, because I had too
many not negative experiences in my mind, reminding me every day about negative
experiences. So I wanted it all gone. It was raising my anxiety levels to an
area where I wasn't feeling good about myself.

Um, packed it away, got into health, um, got into nutrition,
got into the pool three times a day, lost a lot of weight, gained a lot of lean
muscle mass. Surrounded myself with positive people, not in the job.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

Limited my
calls to good friends. Unfortunately I did, but I had to do it. Um, I started
hanging around, , military veterans, probably at the sharper end of the pointy
spear who I met on a, a couple of programs where I went back over to East Timor
to deal with some demons.

Um, I did some soldier on stuff, went on their walks. Did a
bicycle program where I wore a lycra and it didn't fit me. That was fun. But
you gotta laugh, right? So I did all this stuff. Did some Wim Hof method of
breathing and um, cold water immersion. And then I got into my faith. And then
I, I basically am a born again Christian.

So, and people go, I know I'm going to turn off this podcast
now, but the reality is, and I won't bible bash anyone, but the reality to me,
it all then made sense. And so there's joy and suffering, and that's a
interesting thought, and I, you know, I have a motto, which I won't go on
because I can hardly pronounce it myself, but it basically translation is to
the thought it clings, and the closest Bible verse I can find with that is
Matthew 6, 22, and it says, the lamp of the body is the eye, if therefore your
eye is good, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad,
your whole body will be full of darkness, and therefore the light that is in
you, In you is darkness.

How great is the darkness? So to me, it's really cathartic and
it's very descriptive. And to me, just envelopes, you know, let's make that eye
good, right? Let's see good people and let's see good experiences. I'm sick of
living in the darkness. So to me, my faith was really such an awakening. And
honestly, I don't mind talking about it because not many people do.

because you'll be put into that category. But at the end of the
day, it's about, I was going to a Sunday church service now and I'll cry, like
literally cry. And I was the guy in a movie who wouldn't share my experiences
or expressions ever. God forbid you go to a chick flick with your wife and you
start to, Oh, I'm not going to, I don't want to get that, be that guy.

I've spoken about this before publicly, but what I say now, I.
I, I'm, I feel more alive by reaching into my emotions and actually just
expressing it is what I'm probably trying to say. And my faith, my newfound
faith has been really strong in that regard. And it's been life saving. Um, so
that coupled with community, that community has been really good and just
forever challenging myself and trying to remind myself to be a better person.

Every day and by acting better and not being so judgmental. I
still, I'm still judgmental. Like the next person coming to repentance in that
sense. And then saying, give yourself up a cut that's, you know, they need
love, they need support. And so I've done a 360 degree about outlook in life.
And so what I did then, I suppose that was the cornerstone.

And then what I did, I started volunteering while I was
recuperating. Um, and I did stuff with Queensland SES. New South Wales SES as a
basic operator, did some protocol stuff for them as well. Um, I, I joined Team
Rubicon Australia and Jeff Evans, who was the old CEO of, um, of Team Rubicon
Australia, backed me 100 percent and I couldn't understand why.

You've got all these military guys with all this awesome
experience, you know, and I really underplayed myself like this imposter
syndrome.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. He

Mark Elm:

said, no,
man, I back you. You've got this awesome experience. Where's the effect? You
know, um, I'll back out, mate. Just do it. Like, I've got no doubt you'll do
it.

And I'm going,

Rosie Skene:

oh,

Mark Elm:

someone's
believing in me. I'm believe, like, More than I'm believing in myself. And he
provided this opportunity where I was the Australian contingent team leader to
Hurricane Harvey, my first job. And you've got to remember where I was coming
from, you know, muscle loss down the F10. So I started to feel good at that
point and regained a lot of stuff.

And the interesting thing of that experience was like, Oh, I
can do this. I was still, I was still like suffered massive imposter syndrome
over there. But it was like the second largest, most expensive hurricane on us
record. And we're representing Australia through team Rubicon Australia. We're
known as Gratia.

It's awesome. Um, then I came back and he gave me three really
key functional roles of responsibility. One was down at Tatra, um, for the
fires. After that, they did a great job. I think I was. I think it was a
planning officer or officer, one of the two. And then I went to, um, I was the
mission commander for a drought relief operation out at Dubbo with Team
Rubicon, with all these military vets and kick ass civilians as they call them.

Um, and then up to the Queensland floods where I was the
spontaneous volunteer coordinator and just kick goals. And then I, um, was
doing some SES stuff and a job got advertised. And I was at that point
starting, I want to work. I want to have an identity. I want to do something of
meaning and I was happy to make coffee and I'm like a barista coffee.

Nothing too shabby. No international roast cafe edition.
Nescafe. Pablo. And what I, what I did is I put in for the job and I got the
temporary appointment. I loved it so much at the time. It was difficult, don't
get me wrong, because it was with the state emergency services at the rank of
superintendent. It was in the northern rivers.

So two years later, six months later, I go and put in for the
job and I get the job permanently. I go, oh, this is great. But with all these
agencies, you got people issues, you got trying. You know, you got to navigate
that with other emergency service issues, , very challenging from where I was
at that particular time.

And I'm not showing anyone, not telling anyone about my
background to any large degree, said to a few people, few units, um, but not
widespread. And then we had the big floods.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I was
going to ask if that was the time of those massive floods.

Mark Elm:

Yeah, 2020
with the big floods. And I can honestly say I was very disappointed by certain
elements, and I won't talk about it because it's not the time or place, but I
just saw some really poor form come out strategically from the organization,
from leaders who should know better,

um, but secondly, I thought I'm suffering here as well. An
immense stress. I was stranded actually on the way back from the night work, ,
out of Goonelebah which is the main ICC, which is the Instant Compound Centre.
And I was coming back, I got isolated myself, , for a day and a half and I, I
didn't do any eating.

Um, there was no toilet facilities, there was no bathing
facilities, stuck in the top of Tweed Valley Way and, , the M1 and on the
overpass there. And. Pretty lonely, didn't want to be seen by anyone as being
part of the SES because they might see it as a failure.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

And I
didn't want to be that guy to drive through floodwaters.

So then I get, um, we got taken off the bridge eventually. Um,
and then I was straight, I had a day respite and I was working then out of the,
, out of, , the Tweed police stations, EAC. Now that was really the first time
operationally I'd been in an EAC, um, for a job after the cops. So for me, it
was quite cathartic.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

It was
good.

Because I had tried to, I mean, I escaped New South Wales in so
many ways. I was living, um, for a period of time up in Queensland to escape,
anything to do with New South Wales, police sites, sites of police vehicles,
the lot. Um. Yeah. So, yeah, I did that. I was also at the time just in that
terms of shaking identity and wanting to help people for years.

I was doing police legacy in New South Wales from 1992 to 2004
and I was on their board and I was deputy president did pretty well. They're
looking after widows and their families. The deceased police at the time, um,
did some stuff at the police association at delegate level and branch
administration level.

So always interesting police family and looking after people.
What I ended up doing is teaming up with Mark and Andrew, who are the co
founders of Blue Hope Support Services. And they're fantastic people and I
became a non executive director on their board. So I was doing all this and I
was doing stuff in the ESA space for veterans, for peacekeeping veterans as
well.

So doing a lot of stuff. Um, and I, I became very intolerant,
not so much at Blue Hope cause that's different, completely different kettle of
fish, but in some of the ESA space, everyone's against each other. Um, very
political. Um, and we just need to help our veterans. Yes. Um, that coupled
with my new change, , the beginning of this year, I'm around April where I took
up a new position and I won't say the agency, but it's a federal government
agency.

We look after veterans. Um, yeah, my great grandfather was a
Anzac and my grandfather served in, , My grandfathers on both sides served in
the Merchant Navy, Royal Navy and the Australian Army as well. So it comes down
from that respect and from also a deep seated respect for what I saw. Um,
overseas, , um, with my own working alongside Australian military personnel.

So I've got a great sense of, I want to return the, the, um,
the fortune I've had, you know, people might not call it fortune after what
we've spoken about, but I'm very fortunate to be where I am today and be able
to give back and I, I manage a bunch of, um, very committed, uh, they're called
community peer workers.

, with this agency and their veterans or family members of
veterans who've had their own journey and walked their own path through mental
illness. And it is so wonderful to be surrounded by these people and to lead
them and to, to try and make a veteran's life better than it was. So, yeah, so
it helps you, right?

When we help others.

Rosie Skene:

Oh, a
hundred percent. Um, and I'm not sure if I shared on the pod, I probably have,
but you know, the first step that I had in helping myself was actually helping
other people and just doing little tiny tasks, like micro tasks, like helping
people load their groceries at Aldi pushing a trolley back for an old person in
the, in the car park.

Those little things change your life. The random acts

Mark Elm:

of
kindness. The

Rosie Skene:

random
acts of kindness absolutely change your life and then to be able to do that.
Um, as an occupation, um, whether you volunteer or being paid, I don't think it
matters. I think that sense of purpose in helping others is so profound in, in
your own healing journey for sure.

Mark Elm:

I think we,
I think when we do like, this is the thing, it's like doing something when no
one else is watching, not standing up on a pedestal saying, I am updating, you
know, Linking or putting it all over Facebook or, I mean, there's been elements
in my career where I've probably done elements of that, but not to a wide
degree, nor will there be in the future whereby if you're doing some volunteer
work.

If it's true and authentic, and even if it's not structured
volunteerism, right? If it's just helping someone, you don't need to air it.
It's between you and them, and it's an intimate experience between you and
them, whereby you're being authentic to yourself. And it just makes you feel
warm, good, and it's, and it's, and it can be the most minor thing, which could
have the most maximum impact.

When I was in Timor, it was really funny, and why I say it now,
it just hit me, , like a thunderbolt. I remember driving up in Amiri district,
which is out in the sticks, up in, , outside of, Way outside of Dili, up in the
mountain region, the countryside looks very much like Australian landscape, by
the way, with a lot of gum tree, that blue haze, it's beautiful, um, and you go
up to these really remote places.

Now, clearly, they're so remote that they rarely see
Westerners, or anyone for that matter, because you're living in straw huts,
basically, literally, and not, they're the areas which haven't been really
colonized by the former Portuguese or the Indonesians that they're quite sparse
and indigenous to that area.

And the beauty about that is. When you drive in those areas,
you've got these kids running up to you with this big smile on your face. I
think it's the same with some remote Aboriginal communities in Australia as
well, to be honest. And the kids just want to touch your hand.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Mark Elm:

As you're
driving by, so you give them high fives as you're driving along and smiling and
laughing.

And, and, you know, I've got some really fond memories of those
random acts of kindness. I saw it with the Australian Army. I remember at
CIMIC, which is Civil and Military. Liaison, basically, um, out at Glen. I when
I was at least is it part of a mirror district outside of Dilley, but low line
issue, um, with militia and stuff in the past, they still have their security
all sorted, you know.

We're all on watch and guard, but the way they, and I watched
it and I was really pleased. I just, I just watched it because we're doing our
job as well, but I watched how they did it as a group. It was really beautiful
to see. And I don't know if I even added it to them. Probably should have. It's
going back to 2003, right?

Hey guys, I think what you did was a really beautiful thing.
Um, but I watched it and it really That, that term, winning hearts and minds,
just keeps repeating, keeps repeating when I think of it, and it, and it was
these guys, and they're on patrol. I had a footy with them. It was magic. And
they'd be going through these, because kids hang around no matter, and kids are
kids, right?

Most kids. Um, they kicked a ball to them. It was unreal. And
they were, they were really amazing and, and it was the most heart warming,
proudest moment I've felt as Australian, probably ever. And that was seeing
them in the dirt, kicking a footy, just having fun, but still maintaining their
operational tactical supremacy in the area.

And it's hard, hard thing to think. I thought that I just
thought it was masterful. And these are CIMIC guys, engineers. So I just
thought it was, and they were good blokes too, right? Um, and it's just, it
made me proud, really proud to see that and be part of it, you know, in a small
way.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah, it just goes to show it doesn't, it's not always those big things is it
like just a small thing kicking a ball around.

I just want to ask you
about your office now though, because I don't want to

spread it too far.

No,

just a quick, just a little, you can mention it briefly, but
it's still on that identity piece though, isn't it? Your office now. So you
said that you packed all your things up and you didn't want to be reminded of
it. You moved to Queensland for a bit to avoid New South Wales. But now it
feels like you've come a little bit full circle where Able to have pride in
your own personal history journey, and you can happily display some things that
remind you of.

I guess, you know, important times in your life. What did you
think about that?

Mark Elm:

Yeah, it's
really funny. It was funny. I was sitting at my office and thinking, Ah, don't
want it all to be about me. But I've got this cavernous office. I call it my
home office. And what I've got, I've got my plants. You didn't expect me to say
that.

I've got my plants around. And I do. I have like one, two,
three, four, five, six. I can count. There's seven plants. And I got them from
the farm at Byron Bay. Have you ever been there? I

Rosie Skene:

haven't
been there, but yeah, I know of it.

Mark Elm:

They
weren't that expensive, which is surprising for Byron.

Rosie Skene:

It is
surprising, yeah.

Mark Elm:

Ah, the
farm is awesome, so anyone who's been there, and anyone who's been there will
understand what I'm talking about, so go and have a look. Um, so there's a
little nursery there. And Oka, the girl who works out of there, gave me these
plants. So, um, I purchased these plants and they sit in my office and they're,
it's, to me, it's like, that's a really important part of starting a day when
you're in front of a computer, right?

So the plants, I water the plants, but I thought, I've got this
stuff under the stairs. I might stick it out as well, you know, so not
everything because I've got a lot of stuff. I've got a lot of memorabilia and I
thought I'm going to bring out my gnome. I've, I've just, I've just shown
Rosie, , a gnome. Um, so he looks after the plants when I'm not there.

It's probably the spirit guide of some sort to my plants. Um,
but seriously, I've got a miniature ace stick display, which the AP gave me,
which has really meant a lot to me. So that was kind of nice. Um. I've got, uh,
Ben Harper picture and Rosie's going at this point. You're not talking about
all the other stuff you have.

So I do have, I've got my warrant of appointment to the rank of
senior sergeant or non commissioned officer. , I've got my, that crappy
certificate of service, which is watermarked. I've still got it. , it covers a
coffee machine. Um, I've got. A frame display of both UN service peacekeeping
service with the AFP and the one with the cops on the floor.

I've got the maxims of the cops and I've got, I'll just have to
look, a picture of me,

Rosie Skene:

the photos.
I like your photos.

Mark Elm:

Yeah, so
I've got some A few certificates. But the main thing is that I've got these,
this board and it's really, I really challenge anyone to do it. So I use
Instagram. I've got on my whiteboard, um, it's a pin board and it's like
screenshots of Instagram of stuff I post. Cause what I posted, I don't think
it's a wank fest. What it is is it's an evolution. I can now comfortably say.
Here's a picture of me and my wife and a little narrative with it.

I'm pretty funny. Actually, you should read it quite humorous
picture of my dog. I've got a picture of me over in East Timor. . I've got some
in the OSG with all the, the, um, Gas masks on, we were doing some CS gas
stuff. I've got some, um, pictures of me, me, my brother and my dad on there.

My brother and I, when we were kids, cause we're identical
twins, there's two of us running around there, everyone got some faith based
stuff. , Picture of my son in various, , times through our lives together and
my motorcycle and my stepdaughter. So I've got all these things, which. And
there's a picture of just some sneakers, right?

And I remember doing it because I was over up, up at, , in
Queensland doing a big walk. And I was really sore at the time and I took this,
I just, as you do, click something and I put, posted something on with some
comment, random comment about what I was doing that day. Um, and it was about
my journey, basically, and it's on there and what I want people to see is when
they see it is to say, Oh, that's just these things are just small ingredients
of your life journey.

They're not one's not more important than the other. And so
when I look back down at the cops, I can actually or any of it. Um, I can look
back with pride. I can look back with, you know. With just gratitude that my
life has gone full circle from where I was at my lowest point, I can look back
to before that, but it by no way is my identity.

It is a, it's almost, it's really hard to describe. It's almost
like a faint memory, but of someone else's life in some ways.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Mark Elm:

And it's a
cool life. So it's up there and I go, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. So
that's what I've got in my office and, and I think, you know, I'll probably
change it all around soon where I'll get probably get rid of a lot of that
stuff and just pack it away again.

But it was really important to go through it as one, one of
those journeys where I thought I need to do this. And, um, because I was
actually angry. So from gang angry to go, Oh, I'll put it out and sort of with
trepidation gone, but it was the important part of my development of who I am
now. And now it's just like, I'm just, I love riding my motorcycle.

So, um, that'll probably be taking up most of the, that and my
family and my dog. Um, I was on another podcast, right. Ain't no, it's not. If
I got a dog, what would I get? I said, if I was going to get a dog, I'd get a,
uh, Dachshund. Is it

Rosie Skene:

pe pe a

Mark Elm:

Dachshund.
Yeah, you've heard it, right? So, it's not Peppy. Ah. His name is Peanut
Butter.

Rosie Skene:

Ah, well,
that's pretty good.

Mark Elm:

He's cool.
He's groovy. We got him the first week I started in this new gig. .

Rosie Skene:

Thanks so
much for joining me, mark. It's been, it has been an actual joy and I love
seeing a smile on your face. I said to you the other day when we spoke , I like
seeing you smile. 'cause I don't think in that whole seven or eight months I
was at Goulburn

I saw you smile once, so that's really nice, .

Mark Elm:

I, I was
probably smiling on the inside. No doubt I was, no, I, I would've been .

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
thank, thank you so much for joining me and this story. It's actually
incredible where you've been and what you've done, so I appreciate it so much.

Mark Elm:

Thank you.
Appreciate it. Thanks, Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

I hope
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skeen. Join me
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Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
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think. Have the best week.