Rosie Skene:
Welcome to episode 34 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. This week's episode is an absolute cracker, do I say that every week? I feel like I do, I love all the conversations that I'm able to share with you guys.

Like I always say, if you are getting something from the conversations I’m sharing, chances are others will too so be sure to share them with your mates or whoever you think might like to listen. This humble little poddy has just cracked over 4000 downloads and I am just beaming with pride and gratitude. 

Lets keep the conversations happening, lets keep on normalising mental health, sharing our stories so others feel seen and empower others to feel their absolute best. 

Today’s episode with Tanya Hallet from Trauma Informed Practice Training ticks all of these boxes… 

Tanya’s goal for founding TIPT was to create psychologically safe, diverse, and inclusive workplaces after working within the complex trauma space for more than a decade.

She is a qualified secondary teacher/trainer with a Cert IV in WHS and a Cert IV in TAE. Tanya has worked as a teacher and trainer for 20 years, spending six years working in Japan. 

For the past thirteen years she has worked with adolescents and adults who suffer from complex trauma in some of Perth’s hardest to staff schools.

Tanya is a passionate advocate for mental health and trauma informed practice in schools and workplaces. She has lived experience of PTSD, Anxiety/Depression, and sexual assault and sexual harassment, is a Mental Health First Aid Instructor and strongly believes education and training is essential to creating psychologically safe workplaces.

This conversation was so much fun to record so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did… before we get into it I wanna preface the episode with a content warning, we do discuss some sensitive topics such as still birth, PTSD and suicide ideation so please feel free to skip this ep if you’re feeling particularly vulnerable. With that said,  lets do it 

Welcome to
Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skeen, a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Rosie Skene:

Tanya,
welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma. I'm so excited to have you here today to talk
about a few different things that I haven't spoken to anyone about before. So
welcome. Welcome. Welcome.

Tanya Hallett:

Oh,
thank you so much for having me, Rosie.

I'm excited to be here.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
I'm so excited too. , all right, I want to get started. , you are a PTSD
survivor too. I am. And we've got a lot to talk about today, but I thought we
could start there with your story, because that'll lead into, , what you're
doing now. So, are you happy to talk about that?

Tanya Hallett:

I sure
am. Yep. I think it's important for us to be able to, in actual fact, like the
more people that can share their PTSD survivor stories, I think the more that
we're removing the stigma around PTSD, there's still a huge amount of
misinformation. So I think it's really important people can hear stories so
that they can understand how PTSD can actually come about.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
agree. And also, , I have people. That have similar stories to me, because I
was pregnant, and had a baby and I had one last week, you know, and she's like,
I've never heard a story like this before, and it just feels so validating that
everything I'm feeling someone else's felt. Yeah, I think that's really nice.

Tanya Hallett:

It's
really important for people, because this is the thing when you talk about
trauma, one of the biggest, like one of the biggest, crucial, most crucial
things is being validated for that experience. Yes, that was traumatic. Yes,
you've got every right to feel this way. It's actually really important for
people to hear that.

And that's what helps them in their journey of healing. It's
incredibly important.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah.
I agree.

So I worked in Japan.

So I left Australia, finished my university qualification and
left Australia at 21 to go for a year. And I ended up staying there for six and
a half. And it was a really interesting place because, um, Um, look, I learned
a huge amount from Japan. I went there with no knowledge of the culture, no
knowledge of the language, no knowledge of what I was doing at all, because I
was young and just thought, well, this will be fun.

And I didn't really give it any thought. , and I sort of jumped
in and really learned that I had to swim. Because, , I was very young, very
inexperienced, I'd never lived anywhere other than Perth, and I'd really never
been anywhere other than Perth, apart from sort of the trip to Bali and the
trip to Malaysia, like I, I didn't know what I was doing.

And I realised that I had to learn a whole nother language, I
had to learn a whole other culture, and I also got to learn what it was like to
be othered.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.

Tanya Hallett:

And as
a what? , Australian woman. I've never had the experience of being othered
based on how I looked. I mean, there's always the gender inequity that we have
as females.

Like I'd obviously experienced that, but I'd never experienced
anything based on the fact that I was a different race. And while Japan's a
fantastic country, and I love it, , It is an interesting place when you're
trying to live and work there, , because it's incredibly monocultural and they
do work very hard to protect sort of the Japanese pure bloodline.

So if you're not that and you live there, , I came up against
all sorts of discrimination. So, I came up against like apartments that
wouldn't rent to you. I was teaching at a really prestigious all girls school
there. I was working for Toyota. I was working for Mitsubishi. I had multiple
jobs. I was doing multiple different things and you'd go to apartment places to
rent an apartment and they refused to rent to foreigners because we were all
trouble and that I remember sitting across and hearing that, and they sort of
tried to say it in a more polite way than that, but that's exactly what it was.

And I was just like, Oh, my gosh, this is ridiculous. How
shocking is this? , and I also learned that, , I learned to read people as
well, because when you, live in a country like that where things are like the
Japanese are not known for being direct. So you actually have to feel people
out an awful lot.

So I learned to feel out what isn't being said and pay
attention to what's not being said rather than what is being said and what the
multiple meanings were of that. And I think that that time over there taught me
a lot about resilience. And it taught me a lot about empathy. It taught me a
lot about reading people, and it taught me a lot about understanding people
and, and learning that we have to, our interpretations of people sometimes need
to be left at the door.

You know, it's actually really important for us to be openly
curious and always curiosity over judgment and try and understand why things
are being done rather than judge it. So in terms of life lessons, I learned a
huge amount there, but my first job after leaving and teaching at a really
prestigious all girls, , private high school was to go to one of the hardest to
staff schools that we've gotten in the metro area in Perth.

Um, it's actually one of the hardest stuff to staff schools in
WA. It was incredibly tough. Um, the kids were. Beautiful, but came from
incredibly traumatic background. So huge exposure to domestic violence, to drug
and alcohol misuse, to mental health issues, generational poverty,
intergenerational abuse.

Like it was, it was really levels upon levels upon levels. So a
lot of these kids suffered. really intense, complex trauma, so did their
caregivers. A lot of kids were in with the DCP organisation, , child welfare.
Like they, they lived really tough lives and they were beautiful kids, but they
escalated fast.

So teaching them was tough because teaching them was about
trying to keep them safe. So it was less about content and all about the
relationship. So. With these kids, if you, trust was so important. So, if they
couldn't trust you, and a lot of people in their lives, they couldn't trust,
um, then they couldn't open up to you.

They weren't safe with you. There was a whole, you really had
to work hard on building psychological safety for the kids in that, in, in, in
that class. Because if you didn't, , they would pick up on the fact they didn't
feel safe. They would. , get into fights with each other. They get into fights
with you.

Like it was, it was intense. It was hardcore stuff. And that's
what I learned. , I learned how to deal with, with these kids because they,
that I learned how to speak gently. I learned how to make sure that my body
language was always non threatening. I learned how to ask a question gently. I
learned how to read people's body language when they came into a class.

And I learned that really what I was doing. Was I'd be scanning
people from the second I laid eyes on them. I would be scanning their bodies.
I'd be scanning their faces and I'd be scanning them to see where they were at
that particular day because a lot of the kids would come to school. Their cups
were already running over because they dealt with.

Yeah, they dealt with so much stuff the night before. And, you
know, some of them would come to school and yeah. The stories that they would
have were, were horrendous, you know, stories where you know, mum's boyfriend
may have gone on a meth bender and smashed up the house and then they'd have to
show up for school the next day.

, and this stuff is more common than we think. We don't realise
that there's a huge amount of that happening in Australia. , so it, it was, it
was really tough, , and during that time, , I learned about a couple of things.
So one of the things was I learned what trauma informed practice was after I'd
been doing it for about 10 years.

And I went to a pet. It's

got a name. It's got a name! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I went to a PD and, , they were talking to us all about
reflective listening and the escalating people and how do we prevent people
from reaching crisis point. And I was like, and they're like, Oh, this is
trauma informed practice. I'm like, I've been doing this for 10 years.

And they're like, well, that's what this is. And I said, but
isn't this just good practice? Isn't

this

just good practice for everybody? We don't know what frame of
mind anyone is in on any particular day, whether they've had a tough, , a tough
life or not. We don't know. We don't know what other stresses they're being
exposed to in their life.

So isn't this just good practice? And that was sort of the key
moment where I thought, well, everybody needs to be doing this. It actually
doesn't matter. Where you are, who your staff are, who the kids are that you
take. It does not matter. Trauma informed practice is just good people
practice. , so that was the first time I learned about what it was.

, and the other things I learned during this, , during my 10
years there were that, , Uh, with vicarious trauma. So the stories that the
kids would tell you were really disturbing and, , especially when you've got
your own children, hearing those stories is really, really tough. And I learnt
that the burnout that comes with that, and we didn't know what vicarious trauma
was back then, right?

There's a little bit more knowledge of it now. But hearing
stories and, , of, of what people are experiencing day in and day out, because
they've got to offload on someone too. And often teachers are the front line to
that. There's a lot of, you know, medical professionals, first responders,
teachers, social workers, people in mental health, like the amount of stories
that they're hearing that their, , clients, their students, their patients are
going through.

It really is an awful lot for those people to take on. And a
lot of people are just not adequately trained to understand that hearing
traumatic stories again and again, while it may be part of your job, there is a
really, you know, a really strict management that needs to go into that for you
to protect your own mental health and your own burnout.

Rosie Skene:

I wholeheartedly agree with that. And vicarious trauma is something that I wasn't
aware of. It definitely has affected me and my PTSD. Um, and policing,
especially like, you know, working in the station as a supervisor and having
jobs come over that you can't actually attend, , but you sort of need to manage
from the station.

So you're not on scene, you don't see anything, but knowing
what's going on. You're still hearing it. You're still hearing about it. And to
a degree experiencing it as well, which is really tough. And a lot of people
don't understand that a vicarious trauma is a trauma as well.

Tanya Hallett:

Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

And I
mean, like, It's, and I know this is sort of a relatively new term that people,
and people still don't really understand it, but there's, you know, it's sort
of like that secondary trauma that you experience, not necessarily from seeing
it, but from hearing it and then.

You're, even though you're hearing that story, you're often
putting yourself in that position anyway, because you might have to give advice
to people on how to navigate that situation. So, by definition, you've actually
got to put yourself there anyway, even though it's, you know, visualizing
yourself being in that situation.

You've actually had to put yourself there in order to provide
the advice or the guidance, and that absolutely has an effect on people's
mental health and can cause PTSD in itself. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's really
difficult, especially if we are counselling or, or, um, you know, dealing with a
particular or hearing about a story of trauma, providing advice or providing
guidance and, you know, it triggers something in us because it relates to a
situation we may have experienced and there just isn't enough awareness and
understanding of the level of it.

impact that can have on our own mental health as well.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
for sure.

It's intense. It is, and the kids, like, you working in a
school and having your own children, and you know, some of the events that
affected me as a police officer, the ones that were the worst were the ones
involving children. With kids.

Every time, and you cannot help but put yourself in that
situation. , and usually you put yourself in the worst type of that situation
as well. You do. Personally. Um, yeah, incredibly traumatic.

Tanya Hallett:

And
you do it because, like, The thing is, when we are, when we're trying to help
people through a traumatic situation, we need to have empathy for their
situation, right?

Otherwise, we can't help them through it. So for us to have
that, we've really got to get a real sense of what their situation is like. And
the difficulty with that is you do have to put yourself in that situation. And
for me, as a teacher, my worst memories have always been, Sexual abuse
disclosures, and obviously being a teacher, mandatory reporter, so we have to
make mandatory reports, and they're the most upsetting, and they're the things
that stick with you, and I just don't, you know, and no one checks on you
afterwards.

So I couldn't believe it, like, the amount of times I'd have to
make a child sex abuse report, but no one's really checking on you afterwards
and going, geez, that was, that was really tough. Are you, are you okay? And I
mean, I even remember when, so my first child was actually stillborn. So, um,
after I lost my first baby and I was working in this school, one of the, uh,
the things I loved about it was that the kids had such great trauma
intelligence.

They were about the only people I could stand to be around. But
when I had my second baby and I looked at my baby, my live baby, and I remember
thinking, Oh my, how could anyone neglect their child? How could, how could
anyone hurt their kid? And it was one of the first thoughts I had when I had my
own They, my own babies because, um, that was what I'd worked with.

I mean, that's even a trauma response in itself for that to be
one of the first thoughts you have. How could someone hurt their child?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that.

Tanya Hallett:

You're
welcome. That's part of, I mean, that's part of the whole, um, I think, I think
losing my first child at, at nine months as well, I was right at the end of the
pregnancy.

Definitely. Definitely. Um, I mean, I probably should have been
diagnosed PTSD with that incident, but that's not, that's not actually where I
ended up getting my diagnosis from. , so I ended up getting my diagnosis
because after I'd spent many years working at this school, , There were a
number of fights, a number of violent incidents, and I was just finding I was
getting overloaded with, , overloaded with their trauma, overloaded trying to
manage their traumatic responses, and it wasn't the kids fault, but they would
get aggressive.

and there were points
where teachers were being assaulted and we were not being provided adequate
support or, , counselling from management. So the throw off line at the end of
a fight that we'd had to break up or the end of an incident where we may have
been assaulted was, , Oh, we'll reach out to EAP if you need.

And I was like, yeah, that response has got to go.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
it's such, it's like fully negating any responsibility. It's

Tanya Hallett:

awful.
And I remember my principal on a number of occasions, because there were
critical incidents, had to send me an email and she had to be, Oh, I heard
there was this that happened today. Um, oh, please reach out to EAP if you
need.

And I remember thinking, I'm, I got so angry at the end of that
email. I was like, you know, it doesn't absolve you from responsibility,
sweetheart. Like, is this, You're managing your, you know, you're the leader
here, don't fob me off to some agency that, that doesn't know me. Um, so that's
probably one of the most triggering lines I, I hear is reach out to EAP if you
need.

And I think, and there's always that tone. And I think.
Organisations have got to stop saying that. They've got to stop saying it like
that. Yeah. Like it's so disingenuous and people can hear the dog whistle.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And they know that they're just ticking the box. Okay. Yeah, no, I did offer
that. I've covered that base.

We're done. Yeah, and that's,

Tanya Hallett:

and
that's exactly what you, what you, and you know, that's what it is. It's like,
I've insured their health and wellbeing tick. And it's like, no, no, no, no,
no, no, you didn't. What you did was absolve yourself of responsibility. And
that's a different thing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And I know, um, with my, background leaving the police.

So they had to have a contact officer and they have to contact
you every whatever, 28 days or something. And it was a call and they, that used
to really irritate me. Hi, Hey, going, yeah, I'm still unwell. Um, so then, you
know, I got that changed to an email. And so every 28 days, like on the dot,
there'd be this email that would come through.

And the greatest day was the day that I discharged because I
didn't have to have those anymore. Cause I know They, they would irritate me
probably more than anything else. Right? It's I know it's not genuine, you
don't care, I know you don't care, you just got to do this so it disappears
from your computer screen and you don't get in trouble, yeah, that has to
change for sure.

That

Tanya Hallett:

has
got to change and you know, it's, it's interestingly if you talk to a lot of
trauma survivors from any different, it doesn't matter what trauma they've
experienced, most of them will tell you the. Bit that sticks with them is, is
the way they were invalid. The those types of things are very invalidating.

Yeah, they're really inauthentic. They are very invalidating,
and people will tell you that the experience that they receive after they've
experienced that traumatic event. It makes or breaks whatever the situation is.
I mean, you can, you can really propel someone forward in recovery if you
handle it properly, or you can set them right back.

It's your choice, really, but it needs to be managed properly.
And I just feel that so many organisations, you know, move away from the damn
box, be a bloody person for two seconds. And let's have a genuine conversation.
I'm not asking you to be a counsellor. I'm not asking you to be a psychiatrist,
but have a conversation that at least makes me feel like you wanted to listen
to what I had to say.

And you've at least validated that it's tough. That's all
you've got to do. It's not that hard.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
think at the end of the day, well, I don't know if we are all just people,
right? And we just want to have that connection with other people and you can
tell right away when it's off.

Tanya Hallett:

You
can tell! Oh my gosh, it's so like, it feels, um, it's inked, it's the ink!

As the Gen Z'd say,

it's giving

me the ick, exactly. And you know, it's, it's just grating,
isn't it? When you get that, that, that experience. Organisations have just got
to learn how to do this properly. It's not that difficult, but you do have to
invest in the time and the training and you actually have to learn to be a
person.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

Um,
yeah. And if that's difficult for you, potentially you shouldn't be in
leadership or anything to do with human connection whatsoever. So, you know, I
agree,

Rosie Skene:

I agree.
So we're going to sorry, we'll get back on track because I know with Oh, sorry.
No, it's fine. I think, um, you're just going to, you were talking about after
you left the school.

Tanya Hallett:

So
after I left the school, this is where I actually got my PTSD diagnosis. And
like I said, if I go back through the years of other experiences I'd had,
realistically, I should have probably had a diagnosis of vicarious trauma, and
I probably should have had a PTSD diagnosis from when my son was still born,
right?

So, a lot of the, um, a lot of the, uh, symptoms were, were
quite similar to when I formally got diagnosed with PTSD. Um, and that happened
because I thought, you know what, teaching's too hard. I can't do this anymore.
I'm going to have to step back. After a particularly violent incident, my, um,
husband stepped in and just said, look, we've got two little girls.

What's it going to take before you get really hurt on the job?
You have to step out, like you have to. And so, I, um, I thought, you know
what, I'll take a job as a support worker for a little bit, I'll get my head
together, I'll potentially retrain, I'll figure out what else I want to do. And
so I took this job and I was working with a young lady and I was told in the
beginning, look, she has ASD, she has trauma, you've got a really good
background, um, experience in this area, um, we think you'll be a really good
fit.

And I thought, okay, and they said, look,, She has been in
trouble with violence before, but we've got it all under control now, so you'll
be perfectly safe. And I thought, oh, okay, great, awesome, fantastic. And so I
started working with this young lady, and it turns out, That there was just a
lot that we didn't know.

So, on the first night, I was taking care of her for 24 7
shifts, so you're on for 24 hours overnight. Um, she tried to set fire to the
house twice, and I thought, oh, okay, this isn't safe. And so I spoke to my
manager and I said, listen, this girl, There are other, there are other issues
here. She's, she's getting into the, into the evening and she's hallucinating.

She's seeing things that aren't there. She's setting fire to
things like we're not actually safe here. We can't be on a one on one shift
with her. And they said, no, no, no, no, no. She's just. Just adjusting, you'll
be okay. Everything will be fine. And I said, no, look, I'm not, I'm not
comfortable with this. I really feel we need two people on because it just
isn't safe.

No, no, no. We're on top of it. Don't worry. Everything's fine.
So she'd had a, she'd had a few incidents. She'd, she'd assaulted one support
worker and a lady in her fifties and kicked her seven times in the vagina. And
ended up, , she ended up obviously, , having to go, you know, hospitalized and,
and offer her own, , issues.

And this poor lady had a horrible experience. And then the
night before I got there for my shift, , she'd had an altercation with the
support worker the night before, and she kicked in the door and the It was an
older house and the light switch with all the wires was in the wooden
doorframe. And the doorframe had come out from the wall, so so had all the
wires.

And so I was told from my manager, Oh, look, it's December.
It's a weekend in December. No one's going to be able to fix these wires. So
you just, just push them back in the wall and hope for the best. And I was
like, Oh, okay. , I'm not feeling great about this. And they're like, no, no,
no. You know, it's absolutely fine.

Don't panic. And so I did my best to keep everything on track.
The day went fine. We got to the evening again, which is when this girl
generally tended to escalate. She turned around to me at about 9. 30 that
night, looked me dead in the eye and said, I have to start a fire. And I said,
no, you don't love.

Let's have a Milo and go to bed. I have to start a fire. And I
thought, oh, , and I said, no, look, it's been a really long day. We've had a
really good day today. Have a Milo, go to bed and, and, you know, you'll be up
again in the morning. You have another nice day tomorrow. And, um, she went
into the kitchen, started to boil the kettle and started to go to where the
light switch was, where the wires were out from the wall and started to throw
boiling hot water.

On the wires, and I'm saying to her, love, this isn't safe. You
could electrocute yourself. This is really dangerous. You need to step back.
And she was very fixated on wanting to start this fire. I rang the manager and
said, what would you like me to do? Because, you This is what's happening. And
they said, call the fire department.

Do I ring the fire department? The fire department says, well,
sorry, we can't help you because there's no fire. And I said, okay, fine.

Rosie Skene:

What
they need yet. Fine.

Tanya Hallett:

Okay.
All right. I, I respect that. I need police, ambulance. I do need someone. This
girl is escalating. I'm on my own. It is getting dangerous. I do need some
assistance.

And the response I got was, look, it is a Sunday night in
December. There are 434 jobs ahead of you. We will get to you when we get to
you. And I said, Oh, well, thank you for that. And they said, is that her
kicking off in the background? And I said, yes. , yeah, look, yeah, well, we'll
get there when we can and hung up.

And I thought, Oh, well, Okay, well, thank you. That's not
terribly helpful. Um, it was, and I was just getting, um, and I think at that
stage, that was one of the points where the fear really started to kick in
because I thought, wow, I've rung everyone for support. I followed all the
protocols and the procedures that I'm supposed to follow.

I'm stuck here on my own. This is it. I am the cavalry. No
one's coming to get me. I'm stuck. And, uh, at this point, , the girl came over
and grabbed me and held my head over the wires, which were sparking by this
point and said, can you hear it? Can you hear it? And yep, yep, I can hear it.
Yep. Yep. Okay. , so the evening had gone on, the evening went on for hours
like this.

So she was throwing boiling water around the room. She was
trying to push me over the wires. I was trying to stop her also from hurting
herself. , and this had gone on for hours and hours and hours. And I think
about midnight, the ambulance showed up. And I thought, oh, yeah, God, I'm not
alone anymore.

Everything's going to be okay. So I go out and I said to the
ambulance, are you here for us? And they said, yes, but we can't help you
because she's listed as. incredibly dangerous, we cannot assist you until the
police arrive. And I thought if she's listed as that dangerous that the
paramedics can't assist her, what the hell am I doing alone with her?

Um, and I thought, and, and, and I really thought I, I, I was,
you know, really, really, really panicking, trying to stay very calm. And I
used, like I said, the only reason I think I managed to stay alive that night
was because I used every bit. That I, every bit of skill I had around trauma
informed practice to de escalate, to try and stop things getting worse, to try
and keep her safe and me safe.

And it was only because I'd had years of actually doing that.
You know, at a really tough school. That was the only thing that kept me alive
that night. I truly believe it would have gone on badly. Otherwise, like worse
than it did. So eventually at about 1 a. m, the police show up, they had to
chase her down the street, handcuff her and take her to the hospital.

, and by that point I was just a complete mess. She had gone
into full psychosis. There was no reasoning with her. , and like I said, it's
not this young lady's fault. She was very, very unwell and it's not, You know,
about her being malicious, but it was just that safety was not safety protocol
was, was just not followed.

I mean, just we were just in such a dangerous position and many
workers who work in disability or people working in mental health services
probably find themselves in these types of situations from time to time. And
it's, it's tough. So after this event occurred, I said, right, I'm going home.
I went home and very quickly realised I wasn't well.

So I couldn't sleep. I kept seeing her face at the window in my
house. She wasn't actually there, but I thought she was. I, , Couldn't handle
noise. I couldn't handle my kids crying. I couldn't handle any type of stimulus
because I was just so overloaded with trying to survive. I couldn't sleep. I'd
wake up in cold sweats.

I'd have nightmares all the time that I was being chased or
that I was going to be killed. , I couldn't eat. , I had stomach issues all the
time. And it was, it was, I went to my GP within the first month and said,
look, I'm, I'm not doing well. And she said, um, oh, well, we can't diagnose
PTSD because it takes a lot longer to diagnose PTSD.

And I thought, no, I don't think that's right either. Um,
eventually, a few months later, when I got in to see a psychiatrist, I was
given a formal PTSD diagnosis and sent to an incredibly good hospital. Good
psychologist who was just instrumental in helping me get well again. But I was
very, very unwell for a good year where I just could not.

, and for someone like me, who'd always had like a really good
memory, you could stay on track with everything. I knew when every, I couldn't
remember anything. I thought I was going crazy. Like I thought I was going nuts
and people who have PTSD start to feel like that because. You know, I mean,
aside from anything, you're not sleeping properly.

So, that starts driving nuts anyway. Um, but I really thought I
was going nuts. Like, I couldn't understand why I couldn't remember anything. I
couldn't understand why I just couldn't tolerate anything.

Rosie Skene:

Isn't it
frustrating, those things that your brain is able to do?

Tanya Hallett:

You
can't do them anymore.

Rosie Skene:

You
can't do them and it's Through no fault of your own, which is so incredibly
frustrating, but I just remember like trying to read a book and just reading
the same paragraph like over and why isn't like slapping my head, like go in,
why can't you understand this?

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah.
And I just remember being like, and if people hand you like documents, you know
how like when, when, when, when. Because I was part, I was, I'd had to go into
work as work cover by then, work cover by then. And then these bloody documents
you have to keep going through. And I'm like, I'm not in, I'm not in a great,
I'm not in a good state right now.

I can barely understand these documents. And it wasn't, you
know, it's not lack of intellect. It's not that you don't know what you're
doing. It's that you're that traumatized. Your brain can not focus on the
simplest of things. So no wonder you, and you do get so frustrated. And I
actually thought I was losing it.

And I thought, wow, I'm going around the bend. And it wasn't
until I got into this fantastic psychologist. I said, I feel this and this is
happening and that's happening. And she's saying, this is normal because this
is what happens with PTSD. And when she explained what was happening. With my
brain and this consistent hypervigilance and being stuck in that fight or
flight response and it actually helped a huge amount and started to make sense.

I needed to understand what was happening to me

Rosie Skene:

and
isn't it so validating to you? Like I've spoken about it many times getting the
diagnosis and. And starting to understand what's going on because then you're
better able to not just turn up to your appointments, but get the most out of
them to get better.

Exactly.

Tanya Hallett:

I mean, the thing is like I've heard, so, I mean, I'm sure you've probably heard
this as well, the phrase that your wound isn't your responsibility, but your
healing is.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

And
it's true because what happens, I mean, the, the number of people that have got
PTSD, it's through no fault of their own.

They didn't do anything wrong. They've just been wrong place,
wrong time, whatever it happens. But the healing part is incredibly important.
And if that Just isn't, um, if you're not being properly supported in that, you
just sometimes you can never get well. I mean, one of the most invalidating
responses I had was from my father, who should have known better, but he says,
you can't have PTSD.

You haven't been in war. And I'm like, Dad, my life was
threatened and I, I thought multiple times that evening, I'm going to die. I'm
going to die. I'm not going to see my kids. I'm not going to get home to my
husband. I'm not going to see my little girls again. This is it. This is how it
ends. After all these years of staying safe in all these situations, I'm going
to die now.

This is it. And that feeling is, is so much. really awful. Um,
and that'll do it. You don't need to be in war. You don't need to have someone
point a gun at your head. But, you know, if you think your life is threatened
or if the life of someone you care about is threatened, yeah, yeah, you know,
you'll get it.

You'll get PTSD pretty quickly.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And I think that's pretty common for people to think that way as well. You
know, even veteran mates of mine who have been deployed, um, but haven't been
in an active battle, I guess you would call it, still don't feel like they're
allowed.

Tanya Hallett:

They
don't feel they're allowed.

And this is the thing, it's like, what have we got to do? If
you've got PTSD, what makes that situation okay for you to say you've got that
diagnosis? Like, do you have to have had a whole bunch of people pointing guns
at your head all day? Or multiple days for it to class enough to be traumatic
enough for it to be a PTSD diagnosis.

And what we've got to understand is PTSD will occur if you have
been trapped in a state of hyper vigilance where your fight, flight, You know,
freeze, fawn response was triggered, and you were stuck there, um, for a period
of time for whatever, and whatever that incident was is not important. It's the
response your body had to go through.

So it doesn't matter what created that response. It matters
that that's where you got stuck. And we've, and it's, it's so weird because you
do, you feel like you don't have permission to have it. Yeah. It's like. Come
on. And this, and this is the thing, like the first, and this is what's so sad
about this as well, especially, you know, when you look at the amount of
veterans that are suffering with mental health issues is, you know, it's like,
they don't feel they're allowed or they don't feel that they've got permission.

And it's like, the only way anyone gets better is by given the
being given that permission to go. Yeah. You do have a medical condition right
now and you are allowed to take that time to heal and you are entitled to
receive the right support for that to happen. Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

And that
can come from someone saying, you know, maybe you should see someone like your
GP and then, and then from there getting a diagnosis because I really feel that
diagnosis.

Tanya Hallett:

Is
incredibly validating. It

Rosie Skene:

is. And
it's that permission, you know, like It is that one thing. And it seems so
silly because it's, but it is like, I. Yeah, I can hard relate. No, no,

Tanya Hallett:

hard
relate to that. I think, I think a lot of PTSD sufferers would relate to that
because you don't feel like you're allowed to be going crazy until you've got
that.

It's like someone has to hand you a slip and say, yes, you're
approved. Well

Rosie Skene:

done.
You've got your permission note.

Tanya Hallett:

It's

Rosie Skene:

not a
broken arm or leg or, you know, you haven't got a physical injury, you're not
having a limp, like, you'd look the same.

Tanya Hallett:

Mm
hmm. And that's what's so, that's what's so difficult about mental health.

Conditions and mental health illnesses, because what people,
uh, people don't, you know, if you had come in and half your body was blown
off, people would be like, Oh my gosh, are you okay? Yes. Right? Oh, your legs
breaking up. What can I do to make your life easy for you? Poor thing. This
must have been really difficult.

How can I help you? How can I support you? But when it's a
mental health condition, people are like, Ah, yeah, you'll be all right.
There's still that stigma that people are putting it on. Right? And they're
still the difficult people. And it's like, um, if you've ever done mental
health first, because I'm a mental health first aid instructor as well, but if
you've ever done the course, they'll say that, um, having moderate to severe
PTSD is like having emphysema, severe emphysema, and carrying an oxygen tank
with you everywhere you go.

And you wouldn't say to someone with emphysema carrying an
oxygen tank behind them. Oh, come on now. Walk a little bit faster. Just, you
know. Yeah. Fuck up. You'll be fine because you'd be like, you could see that
that person was struggling to breathe. Well, PTSD is like that. You're
struggling to do anything.

You're struggling to breathe. You're struggling to basic
functions, you know, and because people can't see it, um, it's hard for them to
understand, but people who have suffered from it will understand how
debilitating it is.

Speaker:

Yeah,

Tanya Hallett:

for
sure. It's tough.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

Really
tough. Really tough. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

So, I
think that takes us into what you're doing now, right?

Yeah, it does. Yeah, I think it's a really great segue into
what you're doing now. , so , your business is called TIPT, trauma informed
practice training. So interesting. What are you doing?

Tanya Hallett:

So I'm
doing a multiple of different things. So my experience, and I have had a lot of
experience, obviously, my own experience with trauma and then working with
trauma, like, this is something I have lived and breathed for probably the
last, I would say, 14 years.

Like, I've done it for a really long time. And it's, I realised
that actually I was hearing so many stories from friends in, you know, friends
that are out there in the corporate world and the government world and out
there in their basic work, you know, in their workplaces and just the, the
mishandling of so many incidents where I was like, wow, this is, this is really
dangerous.

How this is being handled is really dangerous. So I think what
first, , yeah. What first set me off was I had a friend who worked in the
mining sector and she had, , she'd been at a work party and, , a male, an older
male who was in a management position had tried to kiss her at this event. And
she pushed him away and said, you know, what are you doing?

And he grabbed her again and tried to kiss her again. And she
was like, oh, this is not okay. So she was, and she was not a backwards about
coming forwards lady. She was tough. And so she went into her supervisor, like
her supervisor and said, look, I need to make a complaint about what, what has
happened here.

And she told the story and the response she got, and this was
only a couple of years ago, the response she got was. Oh, look, this guy's
really high up. Do you really want to open this case? Do you really want to
file a formal complaint about this? Because, I mean, you know, he's really well
respected and he's so high up here and I was like, what the hell?

Are we still responding to people like this? And since then,
and sort of actively seeking this out, I've realised that. The amount of people
that are being, they're still being responded to like that for claims of sexual
harassment and worse when it's sexual assault and it's still being, the victim
is still being victim blamed for something or being talked out of reporting it
and I'm like, this is not okay.

We are in 2024. This is not appropriate and I was hearing the
responses and I've spoken to a lot of people who have it. experience either
sexual harassment or sadly sexual assault in the line in their line of work,
and ADF, people in mining, all sorts of things. And the response that they're
getting is just, it's, it's just disgusting.

And I was like, so no one is, is, Is listening. No one is
validating them. No one is providing them with, you know, options and choices
over what is their safety and security. No one is providing mental health
support. No one is even recommending they check in with anybody.

Rosie Skene:

Sorry, I just think that's abhorrent, but incredible because the people that actually
get themselves together enough to say something.

To make the report?

Tanya Hallett:

Right?
Oh my

Rosie Skene:

gosh.
And then that's how they're responded to. That's

Tanya Hallett:

how
they're responded to. Yeah. It's disgusting. And the thing is like, this is
not, and people might go, well, that's what happened 10 years ago or 20 years
ago. Well, that's not that. It's still happening now because I still hear
stories.

Now, now, now, now, as in it's happening now, and it's not good
enough. It is not good enough. So, I started TIPT, was around, , trauma
informed sexual harassment and sexual assault response. , and a lot of that was
also my experience from having sexual assault disclosures from children, and
it's incredibly important that those kids are validated when they've come
forward and they've had the guts to say what's happened to them.

It is so important it's dealt with sensitively. It is so
important. It is so important that your response doesn't make them feel in any
way like it is their fault. Them speaking up was the right thing to do. But
we're not saying that to adults who are coming forward with sexual assault or
sexual harassment.

No one's saying to them, you've done the right thing coming
forward. I'm sorry that that's happened to you. Let me, let me support you the
best way that I can. No one's saying that. They're not, not really. Yeah. And
the response I've had from a lot of, um, places was things like, Oh, well, you
know, um, Oh, well, every, you know, people just want them fired and, and, you
know, we can't be saying whether they're guilty or not.

And I said, you don't have to say whether someone's guilty or
not, but you do have to validate the person that's come forward. You don't have
to say that person's terrible, that you can say, I'm really, I can see that
you're really distressed. I'm really sorry that you're feeling that way. How
can I support you right now?

You know, is there someone that you're comfortable talking to?
Would you like to have a support person with you? Here are some numbers for
some different support services. I will help you the best that I can. I'm not a
qualified counsellor or mental health practitioner. I'm more than happy to get
you referred to someone, um, but let me support you the best way that I can.

It's not a hard conversation to have properly. It isn't
difficult, but you, but you do need the training in it if you don't know what
you're doing. And the fact is a lot of organisations do not know what they're
doing. Because they have policies and they do sexual harassment and sexual, you
know, um, you know, any sexual behaviour in the workplace.

They do all these prevention things, or this looks bad. We
don't do this. We don't do that. And I'm like, yeah, but you know, you're
always going to have those people that break the rule. So how are you going to
deal with the people when the rule has been broken? What are you going to do
then? What's the response?

So we're spending so, companies are spending so much money on
this, Pouring all this money into prevention, but prevention is not actually
working that much. Like it isn't, it isn't because people are, you're always
going to have people that can sit through a prevention seminar and they're
still going to behave the same way.

So what are you going to do?

Rosie Skene:

And I
think that just makes people either a bit sneakier, right? They go about it.
And. Um, like you've sort of already said, they don't want it written down
because, you know, it's not allowed. That's in documents. You know, we're not
allowed to have this in our workplace. So once it's documented, that means it's
happened and we haven't done our job.

Instead of saying, yeah, like, let's help you.

Tanya Hallett:

Well,
what we need to do is also get away from this idea that as soon as something's
documented, it's a problem. If you've got people speaking up, that's a great
thing.

Yeah.

Because if you've got people speaking up, you can. You can
isolate what the problem is and you can figure out what's causing it and you
can do something about it.

Sweeping things under the rug has never ever worked and that's
what organisations have got to stop doing. They've got to stop doing things
like attaching KPIs to like zero reports of this or zero report. It's not
helpful and actually it creates massive problems around psychological safety.
It needs to go.

It needs to go. It is counterproductive. People speaking up is
actually a sign that things are going to change. It's a good thing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And the new work health and safety laws are a good thing around psychosocial
safety in the workplace. So do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yes.
That falls into with what you're doing as well, doesn't it?

Tanya Hallett:

It
really does. I mean, interestingly enough, I started TIPT well before. Um, even
it was before all of that came in purely because this was something I thought
was important. Now the rules are changing. So things like, um, and essentially
what people need to understand about the legislation with psychosocial safety
is that workplaces have a responsibility as far as is reasonable and
practicable to protect the psychological safety of their workers from
psychological injury.

Now, Obviously, as soon as we get a fair and practicable, you
know, it's that standard work health safety, , phrase and it, , that can be
open to interpretation. But essentially, if you've got workers that are
reporting things like bullying, Harassment, , or they don't feel that they can
speak up, or, , you've got workers with a high, , high, , degrees of
absenteeism, or you've got more workers putting in mental health complaints,
one would have to suggest you potentially have a psychosocial Or an organisation
with a lot of psychosocial hazards and the psychological safety, which is
different.

So psychosocial safety is the organisational safety and then
psychological safety is how that person feels within that organisation. So
they're 2 different things. , They are and they aren't. I mean, they
essentially work together. But my arguments always, if you don't have
psychological safety, so the people don't feel safe.

Okay. To speak up, to tell you there's a problem, to talk to
their supervisor, to talk to their manager, to talk to HR, to talk to whomever,
then you can't even identify where your psychosocial hazards are. And the
problem is, again, we've got people sitting there faffing about with pieces of
paper. I can't stand bloody documents and procedures.

Like, I can't stand it because, sorry, it's just my own little
rant there, but it's like, oh, we've got procedures. We've got a policy. And
I'm like, Awesome. A piece of paper. Great. How's that working out for you?
Because a piece of paper is not going to help you deal with psychosocial
hazards or psychological safety.

You need to do real work around that. And that's things like,
is your organisation trauma informed? If someone comes to you with a problem,
Are you validating them? Are you listening to them? Or are you fobbing them
off? Or you've got half an eye on your computer because you're trying to type
an email while they're trying to tell you something important, right?

Are you watching the way you speak to people? Like, if people
come to you, are you consistently dismissing them? What's the manner like when
you're talking to people? All of those things actually all contribute to
psychosocial safety and, , and psychological safety. So it's, it fascinates me
that people are sort of.

faffing about with policies, but they're not working on
themselves because this is actually about us learning how to go back to basics
and be human beings and speak to people empathetically, curiosity over
judgment, validating people and making sure people have adequate support. Um,
and then, of course, there's lots of different, , there's the system of
psychosocial safety.

There's experiential factors which are harder to control. So if
there's, , A workplace accident, for example, you would hope that all health
and safety procedures are in place to stop that accident happening. But if the
accident occurs, then how are you going to manage everybody's fallout? Everyone
who's seen that accident, everybody who was there at that time, or everybody
who's then had to hear about it and deal with that?

Like, are we managing the trauma there? Are we talking about
the vicarious trauma? So, , the new psychosocial safety regulations have a
whole section on trauma informed practice and vicarious trauma. is a big one.
Vicarious and secondary trauma is a massive one. , so what I do in TIPT is, is
basically teaching people how to recognise what trauma looks like, how to
respond in a trauma informed way to incidents, to problems, to anyone being
escalated, to try and prevent that crisis point for people, to try and provide
the right mental health support for people, and then teach people how to,
especially around vicarious trauma, how do you put, How do you show, like, you
know, how do you put boundaries in for yourself so that you're not as affected
by the stories that you're hearing?

How do you manage your own self talk to yourself? Because one
of the things is if we hear horrible traumatic stories, we say to ourselves,
Oh, well, come on, buck up, you know, at least you're not At least you haven't
dealt with this. You've got no right to be whinging about that. And that's sort
of negative self talk that I think we all internalize and don't even realise
we're doing.

It's actually really important we start to learn to be self
compassionate.

Rosie Skene:

I think
so too. I couldn't agree more. And people say it not only in their heads, but
out loud. They do. And I've heard it a lot. , just with different people that
I've spoken to, you know, well, at least I'm not in a XYZ worse position.

There's other people that have it worse with me. Yes, I think
it's great to recognise that you don't have it as bad as some people, but still
your problems are problems and. You're allowed to have them as well.

Tanya Hallett:
Absolutely. And the thing is, you've just invalidated your own feelings when
you say things like that.

And it's actually unhelpful. Like, it's great, as you say,
really great to recognise that here, and this is the difference between say,
practicing gratitude and then having negative self talk about yourself. So you,
so one of the things I do, especially if I'm feeling really down in the
morning, , or flat is I will wake up and I'll be like, okay, I don't have this
in me today.

You know, I just don't have it in me today. And then I might
think, okay, all right. What are, what are three things you're grateful for?
And what are three things you're looking forward to today? And they might be
tiny little things. I'm grateful I woke up in a, in a nice warm bed. I'm
grateful I can go out and have a coffee.

, and I'm grateful that I'm going to get in my car and listen
to a podcast on the way to work. There you go. Three things I'm grateful for.
What am I looking forward to today? I'm looking forward to seeing my kids smile
or come home from school with some other, , You know, random stories, right?
And I'm looking forward to watching my Korean drama when the day finally ends.

And, you know, that little practice in the, in the beginning,
in the morning is actually, , it's actually helpful because it does retrain a
whole mindset for you. It's not invalidating your problems. So you would
actually say, okay, I validate today. I'm feeling great. I'm feeling out of
energy. I'm feeling burnt out today.

I'm feeling really, really tired. And I want to get through
today. So how am I going to get through today? I'm going to remind myself that
if I don't put the oxygen mask on myself, then I can't help anyone else. Yeah.
And it's actually incredibly important. We start to have open and proper
dialogue around that.

Not just to throw away, make sure you practice self care, make
sure you look after yourself. , like I've gotten into the practice when I know
a colleague's had a really bad day of actually saying, okay, you've had a
really bad day and they may have talked about it and I may have said, yep, this
has been a really tough day.

When you get home, what are you going to do to actually look
after yourself today? Tell me three things you're going to do. And they might
go, Oh, well, I'm going to have a cup of tea. Great. Awesome. What else are you
going to do? Uh, I might have a bath. Fantastic. What else are you going to do?
Oh, I might, , I might have some chocolate tonight or a glass of wine.

Awesome. Great. You told me three things that you are
consciously now going to do to try and drain off from the day.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
it's so important, isn't it, to have that balance. I remember my psychologist
saying it to me. We used to, when I moved to Adelaide, we had online
appointments and she's like, right, and after a particularly traumatic session,
what are you going to do now?

Tanya Hallett:

Yes.

Rosie Skene:

Like,
I'm going to go and and pressure host my driveway. And she's like, absolutely.
That's a great idea. I know. I'm like, Oh, I'm just going to have some music in
and I'm going to do that and concentrate on that. But it's so important to
balance it out. Right. ,

Tanya Hallett:

yeah.
And we need to actually, we're, we actually like, this is why.

And so I do a whole, um, I do a whole training session around
like vicarious trauma. Yeah. And I use Lego serious play. That's one of the
things I do. Right. So.

Oh yeah. Okay. Sorry. I'm so sorry. I've got like so much to
talk about. I'm sorry. I'm so excited about this. .

So Lego serious play. This is awesome.

Right. I actually, and I must preface this by saying, I, I
don't like Lego and B, I can't. build things because I lack the capabilities of
following instruction manuals. Um, that's okay. I, I, I, I recognise and own
this about my personality. , that's fine. , so Lego series play is basically
what happens is, is you get into groups.

Often it's groups, it's small groups, it's usually no more, no
more than about five people and you get a sack of what we call Lego soup and
it's a big sack and it's got multiple bits of Lego. It's got all different
Legos. It's got all different figures. It's got all different bricks. It's got
the random bricks.

It's got Duplo. It's got animals. It's got everything right.
It's got right mix of everything. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

this
upsets some people

Tanya Hallett:

who
are all obsessed. It does,

Rosie Skene:

I'm just
like, stick Duplo and Lego together, oh my gosh.

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah,
I know, I know, but trust me, it works. And the reason it works is because some
people are epic at building Lego, and some people need the Duplo to help.

Now, I'm more of a Duplo person, I must admit, I love Duplo. I
actually love Duplo. It's by Kappa Borobaina. , but it's, it's interesting. So,
like, it's, and I say to people to begin with, look, it's, it's all multiple
mixed random pieces. So don't try and put a set together because it's going to
drive you nuts.

That's not what this is about. And then I'll say, okay, so
that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, is you build around the
question that the facilitator gives you. So, , one question could be something
like, , Like a warm up activity that's often used in Lego series players. Okay,
build me a tower with you in it that says something about you and then you get
these people going to have to build a really tall tower might build whatever
you want.

It's up to you. You can have whatever you want. This is about
you being creative. You touching the bricks, but they're quick build. So you
only get between 3 and 5 minutes to do the build. So you can't overthink it.

Rosie Skene:

Oh,
yeah, I'll be choosing Duplo

Tanya Hallett:

then,
yeah. Yeah, you can't overthink. You've just got to be quick.

You've just got to be quick, , quick build. And then, and what
you don't realise is, as you're building with this Lego, the thoughts inside
you, you don't realise you have come out with the Lego. And it's like your
internal dialogue. Is put on the, in the Lego pieces, which is just
fascinating. And I wouldn't have believed this if someone had told me, but I've
seen it because I'm a Lego facilitator, right?

Lego series play facilitator. I have seen it work. It's
unbelievable. The insights you get. So that might be one question. Now,
depending on what And what you do is you build psychological safety in the
room. So you start with questions that are less deep, and then you
progressively go to deeper and deeper questions.

And people share about their build. You talk about the build,
not the person. So people have got that third space to interact in. Which is
really important for people, because a lot of people don't want to talk about
themselves, but they'll talk about Lego build.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely.

Tanya Hallett:

Um,
and especially it's, and it's really, really helpful for people who are
neuro divergent, you know, people who suffer from ASD or ADHD, because they like
to also, you know, You know, they like to be

Rosie Skene:

moving.

That hyper focus too. Hyper focus. Exactly.

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah.
And it's really important, but it allows, because everybody has to build,
everyone also has to participate. So, you know how you'll go to training
sessions sometimes and people will sit there for a training session and they'll
be like, Oh yeah, I can't be arsed being here.

I don't want to be here. I'm bored. I'm bored. I'm bored. There
are all these other things I could be doing. Lego is different because you have
to build, right? You actually are. You know, and so you start and often people
walk in like, I don't know what we're doing this for. And then you see them
excited, playing with their little Lego pieces, having a great time.

So you build that psychological safety. People share what they
want to share and they don't share after that. So if you want to go deep, you
can, if you don't want to, you don't have to. Right, so it's up to you. But
what it is, is what you often find is at the, in the group, people's insights
start to get deeper over the, over the time, however long the workshop goes
for, you know, they'll share more and they'll share deeper things and they'll
share more insightful things.

So it builds. , and I do it for vicarious trauma because
vicarious trauma is all about, , for example, what's your self care look like?
Well, we could sit here and go, okay, go to the beach and go for a walk in the
forest, but everyone's self care looks different. So it's like, okay, we'll
build what health looks like for you.

What does it mean? Like, what does it look like and feel like
for you? And you're getting far deeper insights when you're building it out of
Lego. Because you have to think about it for a second. And it's allowing this
so that each. person has their own individual plan for themselves. And the
other good thing is you'll find that other people feel the same way.

So, , you might build what's your, and what is your biggest
challenge at work? You know, see when people build that and what comes out. You
know, everyone

Rosie Skene:

just
builds a HR manager.

Tanya Hallett:

Or
maybe, or maybe, oh, thank you. Maybe the question would be something like,
build me, what is your, what your greatest challenge at work feels like,
potentially, so that we don't out the HR manager.

Um, but like, these are different things that we do. So, with
Lego, because you, you, what you don't realise is, because you haven't had time
to think about it and curate it in your head, you've done it with your hands
first. Yeah, you

Rosie Skene:

can't
censor it, right? You

Tanya Hallett:

can't
censor it. No. And that's the magic of it. So, you're not censoring.

And then you sit there and you look at your build and you're
like, oh, well, actually this represents that and this, and you get such a, ,
big shock yourself because you didn't realise you were thinking or feeling
that. And, , yeah, and I've had so many of them myself. Like, I remember when I
took my Lego Facilitator course and, , I remember sitting back and going, Oh, ,
and the lady running it says to me, what's the matter?

I'm having a lot of feelings, I say, and she goes, okay, would
you like to share what some of the things are? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I said
these stupid little pieces of plastic of just, you know, giving me this big
epiphany, but it happens. It does happen.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's incredible. And are you doing it in workplaces?

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah,
so I'm doing it in different workplaces. So , I've done some with teachers,
some with lawyers, some with HR managers, some with, , facilitators, all
different types of people. So you do it with, usually what will happen is
you'll get a, you'll get, , a smaller group of people together.

So, , you might do, say, up to 24 people, and then you might
separate it into five or six groups, right? , and then each group will do their
build and share, and then you will all come back together and do like a global
share as a room and see what everybody's insights are. But it's often really
good for team building because you're mixing people up.

And then they can look at what is it that they value in a team?
For example, what do they need to feel when they're at work? , yeah, so it's,
it's the stuff that you get out of it. I can't, I can't say enough great things
about Lego serious Play. And when you're working with something like trauma,
because it's a deep subject, , It's tough for people, and I'm, I often start
with things like, okay, well, build me what safety looks like and feels like
for you.

Build that out of the Lego. Build it for me, because what
you'll often find is the consensus is that safety feels like being supported,
being listened to, knowing what's happening, having transparency, having
control, being around things you feel comfortable with, like the same insights
will come out. About what that is, and then that translates to, well, if you've
got someone that's coming to you to report a really traumatic incident, are you
providing that safety for that person?

How are you doing it? How are you making sure they feel
supported? Are you telling them what the process is so they don't sit there and
go, well, what happens next? You know, it needs to be clear. It needs to be
transparent because that's how people have ownership and control. It's one of
the really important things for trauma informed practice.

You need to have choice and you need to have collaboration. You
have to, otherwise people don't feel empowered.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. I, I want to come back to that actually, but , just one last thing
I was thinking with that Lego play and having team mates and your workmates
with you and everyone's sharing, that would build a bond, right?

It does. That would build an incredible bond, sharing that sort
of stuff, , with other people and them doing the same.

Tanya Hallett:

Well,
really interestingly, I did it with a group of teachers for mental health. , it
was like a mental health workshop and they did their builds and then they, ,
Well, and the question that I gave them at the end of the session, so they
built a bit of trust first, but at the end of the session, I gave them a
question was, well, build what's keeping you up at night.

And I said, you can go as deep or as shallow as you want, but
it's up to you. Go with what you're comfortable with. And, um, we had one
teacher build a toilet because a toilet is a toilet. I can't only get up to wee
in the night. Fair enough. That's why it keeps you up at night. Absolutely.
Fair enough.

Absolutely. , and then another teacher built a garden. So I'm
like, okay, well tell us about, tell us about this garden. And she said, well,
my father recently passed away and he used to look after the garden, the family
garden. And what keeps me up at night is worrying that I can't keep the garden
up like he did.

And that whole team was like, because, , you can forget that
someone's lost someone really close to them, and they're still struggling with
that grief, even though it's months down the track. It was a reminder for that
team to check back in on her , and check in with her and see how she was and
just be that little bit more mindful that was the headspace that she was in
sometimes.

And

then another teacher built themselves sleeping in a bed, and
then all these little figures lying on the ground next to them. And there's
more. Tell, tell what's the, tell us about your build? And she said, well, I'm
lying in bed at night and I'm in a nice, safe, warm bed. And I know so many of
the kids we teach don't have that.

So I'm lying in bed and I know I'm safe and warm and I wonder
how are they sleeping tonight? And again, like this was a teacher who was
actually, she's quite, , almost like a prickly type of personality, like quite
bra. You wouldn't expect it, sort of wouldn't have expected it. No. So that
gives us insight that even though.

She has got that external, , side to her, inside she's feeling
very different things. So it's incredibly powerful.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Wow. That's a big one, isn't it? Mm. A real

Tanya Hallett:

big
one.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. So when we Trauma informed. , I feel like they're buzzwords sometimes
they are, people just throw them in there.

Tanya Hallett:

I know
it drives me crazy.

Rosie Skene:

I can
imagine it would for you. I think so. And you know, I'm a yoga teacher and I've
done some trauma informed, , learnings as well. And then. I think I have a bit
of an advantage because I have something experienced it. I have that lived
experience. And also, you know, I try and just teach first responders,
frontline workers and veterans because I'm very familiar with that space.

Those feelings, emotions, jobs, all that sort of stuff. So I
feel like I am. Um, well informed, I think other people that have done, you
know, um, maybe a workshop here and there, and then they say that they're
trauma informed. I've actually been, I'm going to use yoga as an example,
because what I know, I've been to classes that have said that they are trauma
informed, and in fact, they are not.

And the biggest things I think is choice, um, having that, ,
ability to make a choice and that be okay.

and so in yoga, we would say, you know, this is, this is the
pose. , And we use a lot of movement, you know, you're not static in those
movements with that practice, but you know, we can do it this way.

If that feels good for you. Um, or if not, here's another
suggestion and try and give maybe two or three, , because especially in the
first responder roles and anywhere where there's trauma, it's usually that loss
of power and choice. It is.

Tanya Hallett:

It is.
I was, and that's exactly what I was going to say. The biggest thing that
sticks with people is there is a moment in the, whatever situation you're in.

Speaker:

Mm.

Tanya Hallett:

And
you know, you, you've lost all control, like there is no control or power, like
you're making, you're trying to do what you can to stay safe, but you don't
feel that you've got any choice or control in the situation.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
you just don't have that capacity, right? Very hard. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love
to talk about that.

Trauma informed choice words and the choice, um, and empowering
people, because that's what I'm all about. You've gotta empower people. You do.
So feel like they have a choice. Yeah. Um, and that they're able to voice that
and do what they want.

Tanya Hallett:

Absolutely. So this is what this is. I mean, look, I'm so with you on that
because there are people that will go, we are trauma informed, and I'm like,
how much do you really know?

Because this is, this is, this is a. Big commitment learning to
be trauma informed, like it is not a quick, you know, people want to do it in a
two hour workshop. I'm like, forget it. You'll touch the surface and that's it.
, being trauma informed is that so I'm sure you've probably had the five
pillars of trauma informed coach.

Practice or trauma informed care is safety, trust, choice,
collaboration, and empowerment, right? So everything that you do, if you're
being trauma informed, then you have ticked all of those boxes. So in the
process you have followed, you can legitimately say that you have given that
person all of those things.

So, and like we just said, the biggest thing with, with trauma
is you lose control. Hmm? And power in that situation. So it is incredibly
important that that choice comes back to that person. Now, whether that choice
is a big choice or a little choice is irrelevant. It's that you've given them
choice because choice gives agency and choice gives power back to people.

So that's actually all about empowerment. So, and this is
another small example, so often when I would deal with kids from really
significant trauma backgrounds, choice was so important. Choice and
collaboration, we'll say all these things are important, but the way I gave
them these things was things like, okay, so if I had kids that were being
really difficult in the classroom, I might bring them outside and I'd say,
okay, come outside with me and just have a chat with me for a few minutes.

And I would say to them, okay, we've got two options here.
Option A is that. You go back inside and you focus on what I need you to do and
you stop trying to distract the person next to you and, and you stay as quiet
as you can while I get through the lesson that I need to get through. Option B
is I send you to withdrawal.

Which one of these choices would you like to pick? Oh, okay.
Well, I want to go back inside miss. Okay. All right. That's fine. That's a
great choice. I'm glad you've made that choice. Off you go. Now I've given them
choices within the realm of what I could provide them with, but they had a
choice. Yeah. And so that kid's empowered.

I haven't said, right, get out and go away. I've given them the
opportunity to correct their behaviour to self correct. And the biggest thing
with trauma and choice is you have to give that person a choice of, you know,
if it's a sexual harassment report What's the choice they want to make with
how, how, what's the avenue they want to take when they're doing this report.

Do they want to deal with it internally? Do they want to go to
an external organisation? That's a choice. They need to be provided with that
so that they've got the power. If you're doing, you know, training around
things like, , Uh, you know, for PTSD, it was all about, , what, you know,
choosing what were you going to do in that particular day?

What were the things you were doing to try and get well? Was it
going to a psychologist appointment? Was it taking a walk in the morning
sunshine? Was it doing yoga? Was it doing a dance class? Like, what was it?
What was your choice? So, the choice is incredibly important because it's got
to go back to that person.

And it reminds me of a story I was told by a lady from South
Africa. I've never forgotten this story. It was years ago. And South Africa, we
know, has a pretty high crime rate. And she, her house was broken into, , and
they, they were there, her and her husband were there, and so were her young
daughters. And they got broken into, and, , she had been, , They took the
husband away and, and took him into another room.

So it was really, really frightening for her. And they were
taking guns and jewellery and money and all sorts of things. And her husband had
given her a pair of earrings for their 10 year wedding anniversary. And they
said, right, we want your earrings. And she said, You will not take them. I
will give them to you.

Rosie Skene:

So she
wanted to have that choice.

Tanya Hallett:

And it
was actually really, yeah, it was really important for her. Not for them to
force her, to force them off her. She voluntarily removed them and handed them
over. And now The choice isn't great in that scenario. Right? So let's be
honest. It's not a great choice, but you still have the power of the choice.

And that's what people have to understand that when we're
giving choice to people, they may not have, they may not be great choices, but
you're giving them choice. And that may not seem like a big deal. But what
you've done is you've said to that person, I'm giving you power. I'm giving you
some agency over how you want things to run from here, and you do have some
control.

It's incredibly important that that goes back, even if those
choices are small. Even if it's like, you can do this yoga pose, this yoga
pose, or this yoga pose, but you've given choice.

Rosie Skene:

Or just
sit on your mat, you know, sit on your mat, sit on your mat and have a breath.
And if you need to just sit, that's okay too.

Tanya Hallett:

Exactly, right? Like, that's just so important. And it's like, I mean, I keep
saying to people that, , when people talk about trauma informed, I'm like,
well, what choice have you given this person? Like, you can't be telling them
what is going to happen. You have to, and then that's about collaboration.

So like, okay, guys, these are the options that we have. What
choice do you, you know, if it's a group thing, here are our options. , this is
what the consequences are for each of these options, or this is why we have
these options. Do we want to talk about it as a group and decide what is our
input? What would we like it to look like?

You've given them choice and you've collaborated. You've
empowered those people because they feel they've got a say in what you're
doing. It's not that hard to do. It's not that complicated. I'm not saying give
them a choice, , massive choices that you can't deliver on. Oops. But small
choices, they are actually important.

Even that one where that poor lady had to give over her
earrings and it's not a great choice. These people were wielding guns and she
had a young child in the house and they'd taken her husband. So not great
choices, but she, she was really empowered by that choice of handing over her
earrings.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah.

And I can think of like in workplaces, , giving people choice.
, within the work that they do, I mean, , they still need to have whatever jobs
done. Yeah, of course. Giving them a choice about how they go about running
their own day, , we need this done by this time. And as long as it gets done,
you do it in the way that will get it done the best for you.

Tanya Hallett:

Exactly. Because we all, we all work differently. And, you know, we also have
to consider things like we have to consider people's mental health. We have to
consider neurodivergence. We have to consider people's backgrounds with trauma.
Um, you have to allow people some autonomy over making some choices of what
works best for them.

And if you let people feel like they are involved in that
decision, they also feel really respected by you because you've given them a
voice and a lot of other people won't do that.

Rosie Skene:

And then
what they get, like, happier staff and then more productivity. Much happier

Tanya Hallett:

staff.

Rosie Skene:

Just
like the flow on effect would be incredible if they could start with those
little things.

And

Tanya Hallett:

it's
just not hard. And what we need to do is we need to stop saying, , when you
run, and I mean, I, and I know that education's my background, but , I might
have multiple classes in a week. Well, that's a team I've got to lead. Yeah,
multiple times a day. And , these are high school kids or middle school kids
and they're your toughest audience you're going to get.

Yeah. Right. And the way to get all those kids on site has
always been like, okay, kids, here's the, here's what we've got. This is the
situation we're in. These are the best choices I can provide you with. What
would you guys like? And they have to have a talk about it. What do you think?
Let's talk about it.

Let's decide as a group. And then we're a team. Yeah. They have
choice. They have power. They are more than happy to work for me because I've
treated them like a person and I've listened to what they had to say. It's not
hard. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

and
they're more engaged,

Tanya Hallett:

right?
They're way more engaged. Like, , the, the success I have had with really tough
students has All come because everything I did was trauma informed, everything,
because those kids were safe with me.

They had choice. I always listened to what they had to say. I
never promised things I couldn't deliver. Like that's a massive thing with
trust, like people like, how do I build trust? And I'm like, okay, we'll start
with not saying things that aren't going to happen. Don't say yes. If you can't
deliver that, don't say yes to shut someone up.

, don't do that because it's actually really, it's a really
horrible thing to do. And then people don't trust you, , and also, it's
actually really important for leaders to be what we're talking about, like,
authentic leadership and vulnerable leadership. You've got to give trust to get
trust.

So you actually have to share a little bit of. Of who you are
as a person, you don't have to share everything. You don't have to share all
your deep, dark secrets. Like no one's saying that, but it could even be that
you walk into work and go, , look guys, I'm really sorry. I'm a bit short and
snappy today.

, the kids were up all night. They were sick. , I'm sorry. I'm
not at my best. And someone goes, Oh wow, you're a human. Look at you. Oh, but
I can relate to that because I also have kids that I've had to be up with. So I
will be gentle with you today. It's not hard. And , even things like that build
trust because you've actually revealed something about yourself and people
think that that is, I know there's still that idea that it's weakness or that
it's, , but it's actually, you don't have to reveal a lot, but you do have to
show.

And I mean, especially it's incredibly important, the higher
the level of trauma background someone comes from, all the more difficulties
they've had in their life, they have got so many issues with trust, because all
the people they were supposed to trust let them down. So why the hell should
they trust you?

You've got to prove you're different.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
like that. And that vulnerability, , even if it's just a little bit of
something, like saying that about your family. Yeah, I've got kids and I was up
all night. That vulnerability then allows other people to feel like they can
share too. They're theirs as well.

Tanya Hallett:

And
you're not, and you're not saying, you know, you're not saying, let me, , cut
me, you know. Cut me off and let me do whatever I want today. You're saying,
just I'm going to be a bit snappier than usual, or I'm sorry if I'm short with
you. I don't mean to be. This is what's happened. And someone goes, yeah, okay,
we can all relate to that.

Who can't relate to that? Yeah, and it's actually so important,
and I don't understand why this is complicated for people. This is literally
how you build relationships, and you've got to give trust to get it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
think that some people are just more, , have more emotional intelligence than
others too, right?

So it. It's, um, it doesn't come naturally to some people,
yeah, and like we talked about, ASD and ADHD and all those little nuances that
people have, you know, I think, , what you're doing is so great because then
you can show all these people that are always in workplaces. You know, this is
what we need to do to be better because if we know more, we can be better and
have better workplaces.

So.

Tanya Hallett:

This
is the thing. It's just, look, when we know better, we do better. Like you
said, when we know better, we do better. And trauma informed practice, I think
it's still a relatively new thing. , I feel like a lot of people will still
look at me when I say this and go, or they'll go, I don't like the word trauma.

And I'm like, okay, fine. But actually, this isn't about the
trauma. This is about the solution to that. And this is about how can you make
people feel the safest and the happiest and how can they be the most
productive, best versions of themselves that they can be? That's what you do
with trauma informed practice.

And in whatever, whatever, whether you're doing trauma informed
leadership, whether you're doing trauma informed investigate, it does not
matter how you're being trauma informed as an organisation, but you've also got
to embed it. Like it is a. Proper commitment. It's not a quick workshop. You
tick off and say you've done.

You embed it through your practice. It's like your online

Rosie Skene:

learning
that you just click, click, click, click. I know, I

Tanya Hallett:

know.
Oh gosh. Yeah, it's not that. You've really got to, you've really got to commit
to this. But honestly, the relationships that you can get, the relationships
that you can create with people, the tight knit group of the teams, the level
of work you get out of people, like, the difference.

Yeah. That you can see, and the best part

is, is that you can see people when you use this particular
strategies, the confidence and the empowerment that the people have. And, ,
they really believe that they can do things. They're more creative. They're
more innovative. They're far more productive.

They're much happier. They're much healthier. I mean, this is
literally win win.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
think right at the crux of it too, it's just that awareness, isn't it, about
people and that some people have suffered trauma and just recognising that at
like the most basic level.

Tanya Hallett:

Well,
they say, the stats say that 75 percent of all Australians will experience at
least one traumatic event in their life.

At least one. Right. 30 percent of our youth have complex
trauma. So the Gen Z that are coming through workplaces are. absolutely not
equipped to deal with the next generation. They are, not only have they
experienced huge amounts of trauma, they're also a lot more mental health
literate. So, if you're not a mental health literate lady, you're going to
struggle.

So, Gen Z coming through are coming in with massive trauma.
We've got a really, um, large number of, uh, migrants and refugees that are
coming through and they've come from really significant trauma as well. If you
deal with First Nations people, there's huge amounts of intergenerational
trauma. All of these things, like, it does.

Trauma is not, it doesn't have to be looked at as this icky,
bad, horribly scary word. , it's having the strategies to deal with it. That's
all. That's all this is. It's not, it's not great that people have experienced
trauma. It's also inevitable for most people.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. Well, on those stats, isn't it?

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

Yeah.
Right. It really is. It's inevitable. So, how are we going to cope with it? And
how many people go through, how many, one out of one people are going to
experience a loss of someone significant in their lives while they're working
for you? And that's a trauma in itself. That doesn't mean they're going to have
PTSD from it, but it's a trauma.

Yeah. It's a loss. It's a grief. And, and how are you going to
deal with it?

Rosie Skene:

I like
what you said there about Gen Z, being more. aware Um, I've got, I think the
alphas, my kids, um, and my seven year old is incredibly anxious, but she uses
that word. Yes. She said to me the other night, we were talking about something
and she was a mess.

Um, and we're having a conversation. She said, just the anxiety
just takes over my mind. And I was just like, whoa, like a seven year old is
using this language. How

Tanya Hallett:

great.
I mean, awful that she's feeling anxious, but how great is it that she can name
what it is? Like, I remember suffering from horrible anxiety.

Like I was always anxious, right? But I didn't know what it was
and everyone kept calling me a drama queen and I was severely anxious. Yes.

Rosie Skene:

Yes.
And, and absolutely. That's exactly what she would be written off as, is just
dramatic. And her brothers give her a hard time, why do you cry all the time?
And I'm like, just leave her alone, you know?

But I'm just like, wow, that's, she's so aware of that. And

Tanya Hallett:

they
really are growing up that way. I mean, like even, so my eight year old's
quite, my eight year old and my five year old will have discussions like that
and they will say they're feeling anxious. And then we can talk about it
because we can name what it is and we can discuss it and we can talk out
whatever the problem is and then they feel better and they feel validated and
I'm going to listen to them.

I'm not going to say you're a big drama queen, go to bed,
right, which is how I was dealt with. Um, but it's just, it's just, it just
doesn't, it doesn't help. And like the kids know the different, you know, the
zones of regulation. Like the other day, my five year old was saying, , mommy,
I think you need to move into the green zone.

Because the green zone's the calm learning zone. Let's move
mummy out of the red zone. Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

your
job's come back to bite you. It

Tanya Hallett:

really
does. But they are going to be mental health literate. I mean, that's gen
alpha, but they're, you know, they'll be out in the workforce soon enough. Like
it's not going to

Rosie Skene:

be far
away.

You've got to start there too. Like one of my biggest things is
mental health literacy just needs to improve across the world. Um, and where do
you start? You've got to start with the kids, right? You've got to

Tanya Hallett:

start
with the kids. And the kids are coming through and like, they are really mental
health literate.

And the other thing is, is they're really, um, discrim Well, I
don't even know if this is a word I'm creating the phrase. They're
discrimination literate. So they will know if what you have said or done is
sexist, is ageist, is racist, is, um, non inclusive because we have been
throwing those words at them for, you know, for years.

So, these kids are like, that's not okay and they will not put
up with it. And what, and really, why should they? Because , it was never
correct behaviour to begin with. It's just that we had to put up with it because
no one knew any better in our generation. , so we, we put up , with, you know,
when I talked to, , some of the Gen Zers and I'm like, well, I remember my
first job being felt up by the boss.

He used to feel up my. backside all the time, and they're
horrified to hear that. And I'm like, oh, this used to happen all the time.
Didn't make it right. No, but it was

Rosie Skene:

accepted.

Tanya Hallett:

It was
accepted, and you were accepted to kind of turn a blind eye, or you were the
junior, so you had to kind of cope with it.

This generation's not going to cop any of that. No freaking
way. They're not going to have a bar of it.

Rosie Skene:

How
fantastic.

Tanya Hallett:

I
think it's great. I actually love Gen Z and I think that all they're going to
do is they're going to call you on your BS and if you're inauthentic, they're
going to spot that too.

They're going to sniff it out and if you can't be real about
what you're doing and you don't care, they will know and they will not work
well for you.

Rosie Skene:

Isn't
that incredible that in this age as well with all the technology that they are
better able to pick up on all of those inauthentic. Yeah. And I just need that
human behaviour.

Tanya Hallett:

Exactly. And I think it's because. , and I thought, I've thought about this,
but I'm like, why are they so, they are really into, really into what's
authentic and what isn't. And not necessarily that they're going to use those
words, but they'll be like, that's for real and that's not for real. Or this
person's, or they have a phrase for if you're fake, ,

. That's cap. Or, um, and there's another word they use too,
but I can't think of it. It'll come to me later, but, , and I'll say, oh, okay.
And they'll be like, yeah, you know, basically they're fake. And I'm like, Oh,
okay. Um, we wouldn't have even thought to say that back then, but they do. And
I think it's because all of the consistent feed of information of, um, videos
from people with TikTok, Instagram, , Facebook, they probably wouldn't be on
anymore because it's too old and that's only for boomers.

Um, Snapchat, the works, right? And so they're seeing all of
this. So they're like, okay, this is what you look like on the screen. But in
real life, you look like this or this is how you behave on screen. But in real
life, you're like this. So I think they're just really good at at figuring out
the nuances when people are being false and they're going to, They're sniffing
it out.

Yeah, that's

Rosie Skene:

cool.
Yeah,

Tanya Hallett:

it's
really cool. But it means leaders who, you know how there's always those
leaders who, and I always find them, you know, when you get a leader and you're
like, you can't get a read on them, you know that? And I'll be like, yeah,
you're trying to figure it out. And it's often because, and I always get really
nervous around people like that.

If I say I can't get a read on them, it's not a good thing. And
that's often because what I'm feeling about them, I don't feel like they're
presenting me with an authentic side and they are not going to work for people
like that. They're not going to like it and they're not going to, they're not
going to play ball.

And we are going to have to learn to play ball with what they
want because this is the new generation that's coming into the workforce. By
2025, 30 percent of our workforce is Gen Z.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Wow.

Tanya Hallett:

Right.
So people are going to have to make some adjustments and fast.

Rosie Skene:

Hmm.
Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, it is. Coming.

Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

I
reckon it's really cool.

Rosie Skene:

.So to
finish up, I would love if you could share three top tips and it could be for
individuals in the workplace or for, you know, leaders in the workplace or just
workplaces in general, whatever you feel like a couple of tips to help keep
their workplaces, , psychosocially healthy.

safe or safer or improve the safety in that area.

Tanya Hallett:

Oh,

Rosie Skene:

okay.
I'm trying to choose three. It's hard. Okay, you don't have to pick three. You
can pick five if you want. You could go all day, but I love this. I'm sure
there's, I'm sure there's a couple. I'm getting

Tanya Hallett:

all
this choice. , I very rarely get all this choice.

It makes me so excited. Choice and freedom. , okay. So the
first one I've got is curiosity over judgment.

Rosie Skene:

I love
that. I've written that down actually on my piece of paper here. I really like
that.

Tanya Hallett:

So
that is my top, that is probably my top, top, top, top, top tip because it
seems simple, but it actually negates a lot of misunderstandings.

So no one will behave In, in any way without there being a
reason. So, instead of thinking what's wrong with you, what's happened to you
and how can I help? So, that is my big thing. So, if you get someone who's
particularly snappy one day or someone who has, , you know, escalated quickly
on a particular day, find out what's wrong if you can.

Or try to give them the space where you're not judging them for
being a bad person, right? What you're trying to do is wonder why they've been
that way today. Um, so yeah, curiosity over judgment. People never do anything
without a reason. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. I've never seen people do
anything without any reason.

Authenticity is my other tip. Be authentic. , Drop the facade.
People don't like it and it will not help you build relationships with your
team and it will not help you build relationships with your manager. It doesn't
help you build relationships with anybody. , even customers, same, same thing.
It doesn't matter who you're working with.

It's really important that you are authentic. So don't. Don't
try to present a different side to yourself. Obviously, be professional in the
workplace, but be authentic, right? Don't pretend that you're someone you're
not, especially when you're working with younger people, because it will not
fly. All right, that's my other tip.

Become mental health literate is my third tip. Okay, yes. Now
You do not have to be a psychologist. I'm not suggesting that you go off and
complete a seven year clinical psych degree and then do all the supervision and
all the stuff that goes with that. I'm absolutely not suggesting that. But
become mental health literate.

So mental health first aid is an incredible way to start. Those
are two day courses, and they are incredibly useful for any workplace for
anyone to take. They are so good because they talk about, um, Multiple
different mental health issues and how to have a mental health conversation and
how to follow the steps so that you don't have to be scared.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Tanya Hallett:

so
it's really important. And if you are not mental health literate, invest the
time in becoming mental health literate. You are not a counsellor. No one is
expecting you to be a counsellor, but knowing how to at least have a
conversation where you recommend someone seeks help is really important and you
don't know when you might need to use it.

Whether you use that at work, whether you use it at home or
whether you use it on the street one day, you might never, ever know, but it is
one of the most useful and powerful things you will ever know is how to have a
mental health conversation. And how to encourage someone to seek help and do it
in a safe, validating, , supportive way.

, and then my other thing is, Lift your co workers. So lift and
uplift your co workers. So I don't mean like literally go around and lift them.
Picking everyone up. Picking everyone up. But like, you know, one of the things
is that I'm really surprised that we forget to give each other little
compliments.

And again, you don't have to be inauthentic about it, but it's
not hard to say to someone. Like your hair today. Or, I love how you wrote
that. That email was really good. Or, I loved what you said the other day in
that meeting. Or, oh, thank you for, thanks for making that cake. It was really
delicious. Like, it doesn't matter what it is you say.

But these compliments, these positive interactions that we have
with people, like I said, They don't have to be inauthentic, but it builds that
relationship and it builds trust. It builds safety. It builds all of those
things that are really important. And it's not that hard to come up with
something nice to say about someone.

, and it just, it just, we don't actually, you know, We talk
about one of the psychosocial hazards actually being lack of recognition. Be
that person that recognises what someone did. You don't have to make a big song
and dance about it, but you know, it doesn't hurt for them. It doesn't hurt to
have a quiet word to them, you know, thanks for doing this, or I really
appreciated you doing that, or that was really helpful.

Thanks for that. It's not hard,

but

it makes a massive difference to the co worker who feels like
they do hundreds of those things and no one ever sees.

They're probably my top
four tips.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
love that because I think everything that we have spoken about today doesn't
always have to be in the workforce.

You can translate this into every single part of your life. And
I've, while you've been talking, I've been like, yes, this is something that I
actually do with my kids or with my friends. Um, and I've, And all of those
things, like curiosity over judgment, and I do it with my kids all the time. My
youngest two go to a school that has a 48 percent Indigenous and refugee
population.

Wow,

Tanya Hallett:

interesting.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
it's really, really interesting, actually, with my mind, and I'm very curious.

Tanya Hallett:

You'd
be very curious.

Rosie Skene:

But I'm
trying to teach them the same, um, why some children do some things, Oh, I hate
this person. Like there's a lot of hate. Um, so trying to change the language a
little bit, but, oh, I hate this person.

They did this today. I'm like, okay. I wonder,

Tanya Hallett:

I

Rosie Skene:

wonder
why, like, no, and they're like, no, mum, don't say that, they were really mean
to me. I'm like, okay, like, I understand that that's how they were to you
today.

Tanya Hallett:

One of
the really good things is there is validate the feeling first and be like, you
know, that must have been really upsetting and I can understand how that would
be really hurtful.

But I

Rosie Skene:

wonder.
Why? Yeah. I do know. Yeah. And that's what they want. They want that
validation. They want the validation. No mum, don't you start. Don't you feel
sorry for them? Because that's what my son says. Don't feel sorry for them.

Tanya Hallett:

I'm
like,

Oh, okay. You're supposed to be on my side, mom. Where's your
loyalty?

Gosh.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely that. But yeah, definitely like that curiosity of a judgment. I'm
just trying to teach them in little lessons all the time about those sorts of
things.

Tanya Hallett:

Well,
it's creating empathy, which is a great skill for anyone to have.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. But all of those things and everything, like I said, that we've
spoken about today, it doesn't have to just be in the workplace.

So we're all human. We're all in this thing together. Yeah.

Tanya Hallett:

We
are. And really, at the end of the day, if we could all learn to be, if we
just, I know this sounds really awful, we just gotta be better humans. It's not
hard. Like, you know, it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't hurt to look for the
good rather than the bad.

It does not hurt to do that. And, you know, it, it's just,
Cutting people just a little bit of slack. It doesn't, I don't think that ever
goes badly. Hmm. Yeah. You know, bit of empathy, bit of empathy. Empathy
please. Empathy please.

Rosie Skene:

What a
great way to end the chat. Thank you so much Tanya for coming on. I've. really
enjoyed it. Um, yeah, I love chatting with you so much. Um, and, uh, people can
find you on your website.

Tanya Hallett:

Yes.

Rosie Skene:

And I'm
going to link to all of that in the show notes. All of your courses are on
there. Um, you're on LinkedIn and anywhere else that you send me the links, I'm
going to put all those in the show notes.

As well. Thank

Tanya Hallett:

you.
And please, if anyone does want to figure out, like, if everyone, if anyone is
confused about this and they want to figure out how this may work for them or
work for their organisation, I do offer count. I do offer coaching as well and
training. Um, get in touch. You have no obligation discovery discovery call.

If you want to get in touch, please do so more than happy to
chat.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. It's been so fun. I've

Tanya Hallett:

loved
chatting with you, Rosie. You're amazing. I love what you're doing. Oh, thank
you so much.

Rosie Skene:

It's um,
yeah, it's good fun. But, , yeah,

Tanya Hallett:

thanks. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Rosie Skene:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while
you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate
your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at
Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and
workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.