Rosie Skene:

Hello, and
welcome to episode 37 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. I thank you so much for being
here. I wanted to start today's episode with a little reminder that my program,
the First Responder Mental Wellness Method is available on my website,
tacticalyogaaustralia.com this program is the only one of its kind where you
learn all about what's going on within your body when you live with PTSD.

Then, move through to new tactics to empower you to take
control of your symptomology, of what you can do during triggering moments, and
how you can finally teach your nervous system that your life isn't constantly
at risk, and that fight flight response can just calm the fuck down. Yes, the
program includes breathwork, yoga, and mindfulness, because these time tested
practices have been proven to work for thousands of years.

They go beyond surface level fixes to address the root cause of
why your body reacts the way it does. These tools empower you to regain
control, helping you take charge of your mental health journey. The best part?
The program is entirely self paced, delivered online, and you get immediate
access. No pressure, no waiting.

Just the perfect way to start feeling more grounded and in
control. If you want to hit up your insurers to pay for it, like other
participants have, download the PDF that they've used also available on the
website. There's literally no better time to take control and get your life
back. Today, I am joined by Andy McFarlane, a former New South Wales police
officer whose 20 plus year career is nothing short of extraordinary.

From undercover operations with the New South Wales Crime
Commission and Drug Enforcement Agency to counter terrorism and dignitary
protection, Andy's path has been one of danger, resilience, and relentless
personal growth. In this episode, Andy shares the intense highs and devastating
lows of his policing journey, including life undercover, the toll on his mental
health, and the challenges of rebuilding after hitting rock bottom.

His candid reflections on resilience, recovery, and finding
purpose will leave you inspired. There is a little bit of chatter about
suicidal ideation, so please be mindful of your capacity to listen to this
episode today. Now let's dive into this incredible story of triumph beyond
trauma.

Welcome
to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Welcome to the podcast, Andy. It's so great to have you here
today. You've got a big story and we don't have a lot of time. So I would love
to get straight into how you joined the New South Wales police and what led you
there and what was that like for you?

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, it was probably always a childhood kind of dream, , to be a cop. , I'm
not really quite sure, because I was a really naughty kid, and, , a bit of a
wild teenager, but possibly not super bad compared to others, but yeah,
certainly was on the fringe of getting into a lot of trouble with the cops. , I
come from a working class family, but I was brought up in a pretty nice part of
the world called Yowie Bay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Yeah, my dad was working class and he was a fitter and he, he
didn't, he thought the cops, well, it possibly wasn't a bum job, but it was
probably a job that it was you're left to the last shot of it was if you're
down on your luck, that's where you went to the military or the cops.

I think trades in those days were pretty highly regarded.
You're a technical specialist in your own right. Um, so he sort of taught me to
do on a trade. , and I was, Fortunate enough, I guess, to struggle through a
prestigious trade at Qantas as an aircraft, , sheet metal worker slash
technician.

And, , yeah, it's good. I made a lot of mates out there. I
mean, we had something like four or five hundred apprentices.

Wow. , you know, from fourth year down to one year, it's pretty
stiff pecking order out there.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

And,
, but a lot of fun, a lot of guys from all over Sydney and from all over the
New South Wales, a bit like the cops actually came down to work for Qantas.

And it was a great airline in those days, they were highly
regarded, the flying kangaroo and the great, great work culture there. And it
was government owned too in those days Rosie, everyone kind of had a job for
life, you know. Yeah. , yeah, got married really young, got married at 20 and
had already applied to join the cops as soon as my trade was over, that was out
the door and I'd got accepted.

So I got married in 19, uh, 1980, had my honeymoon in Bali,
which I'd been going to through the 70s as a young bloke. , And, you know, 1982
came around and I was into the Cops, August, I think about August the 15th,
Class 188. Don't forget it. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's the two things I think
you kind of, when you're circling around someone who you think might be a
bullshit artist about being in the Cops, it's the first two things, you're out
of what class you're out of, what's your registered number?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

So
that's usually a bit of a, Yeah, that's easy. So it separates them all out. Um,
so yeah, I turned up and while I was super fit, I was riding a really, really
high point of train and really hard in my life. And I'd really embraced
distance running, which held me in good stead in the cops. And I was playing
footy.

, yeah, climbing a lot. I was big on rock climbing and just,
yeah, doing all sorts of pretty healthy stuff. And, um, so I kind of, you know,
had no dramas with the PT. , in those days, you know, you had a trade or they
were taking people from the bank, you know, we're taking nurses and there was a
great thing those days you didn't have to have a high academic record and you
all lined up on the program with guys who are bricklayers, you know, bakers,
women who'd come from nursing.

Teachers, everyone, everyone wanted a bit of adventure. They
wanted to get out of their mundane kind of daily routine and that's, I guess,
like the military is what the cops offers, you know, uh, something different.
So a lot of good drill sergeants, lots of, a lot of the old school drill and
marching and I don't think that hurt anyone, you know, loads of yelling in your
face.

Yeah, so, , got out, and while I was there, uh, I sort of saw
the mounted police across the, across the way, and, , I'd been riding too as a
kid, and we had horses at home, and I'd had a, I'd just got rid of my horse to
join the cops. I thought, I'd be pretty cool on a horse, you know, so, went and
did the riding test.

I did that okay, and uh, they took me in my pro actually, so I
went out to Redfin Number Seven Division. I was the first probationary
constable in the Mounted Police in about 15 years. They'd sort of got rid of
it. I think apparently they used to recruit them straight into the cops and the
elders when they had lots of Mounties, and that's what you were joined as.

You joined as a Mounted Policeman, and you probably finished as
a Mounted Policeman. So, I went out to Redfin and Mascot for about six months
and then I came back in about three months before secondary and, , went to the
bounties and, , yeah, that sort of started off my semi operational police
career because it was really only semi operational in the bounties, you know,
half the time you're shovelling shit and the other half of the time you're in
the ceremonial uniform.

Yeah.

So, but it was great. I love the patrolling. I mean, I really
like police work and I, yeah, that's probably where I came to a crossroads
pretty early in the bounties where I. Didn't think there was enough focus
placed on police work in the Manny's. Uh, they called it, , some of the guys
used to humorously call it the Paul Surry Hills Polo Club, , and, , I think
perhaps, yeah, well, I'm not going to talk about the current state, but, uh,
certainly, um, it was all mild in them days.

We had a couple of women. Uh, they did have a place, Redfern
was going off in those days, Rosie, there was lots of blues down the block and,
you know, sitting on 800 kilos of horse meat's a pretty good weapon when it has
to be used.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

So
yeah, , that was fun. And then, , I wanted to go back to GDs and I, you know, I
found out that Cronulla had a spot, Sutherland, sorry, but it was all one
division and they said 24 division and they needed a hooker in their football
side.

So I got a transfer.

And I had a great time out here walkin the beat. And, , working
the truck. And, , again, just working with just, I think you always work with
good people in the cops. I don't think, there was only one guy that really
pissed me off in my whole probation. He was the guy that tried to sell me Amway
every night working in the, in the caged truck.

And he got everyone, he got everyone offside. But yeah, I, I, I
loved catching crooks and I, I liked, uh, getting in a scouse if it was on and,
, but I also liked, sort of, challenging myself with, with investigations and
probably got in the shit a couple of times off the deets and probably biting
off more than I could chew as a young policeman and they had to come and save
me.

But I also, a couple of blokes used to pat me on the back and
say, look, that's a good job, Andy, you know. Most blokes would just flick that
upstairs to us. And I think that was kind of the writing on the wall for maybe
some type of plainclothes career. And then, , while I was there at Sutherland,
, I missed out on an opportunity to go to the National Crime Authority, which
I'd had my heart set on, and I'd finished the surveillance course, , end up
getting started at the gaming squad in a surveillance unit there.

So that was kind of not bad work. I wasn't, I wasn't a real
kind of, you know, Anti gamer. I didn't go gamble myself, but I couldn't see
why there was so much impetus placed on policing around SP bookies I figured if
a guy wants to run a book at the back of the pub, what's wrong with that? But I
didn't realize there's certainly organized crime in Involvement and also they
weren't paying their tax.

So the politicians really wanted them locked up. Yeah. Yeah So
we're a lot of resources flicked that towards gaming and vice it we we sort of
came in. I think that was 87 Yeah, early 87 and the devolution of 21 division,
the famous 21 division had been, that happened, I think, maybe the year or two
before that, maybe a year before, not too long before, so we, they sort of set
up the state investigative group, and I think it was all like, You know, to
sort of get rid of the, the old, uh, you know, shadow of 21 Division, which I
thought they were great.

They were awesome blokes and they were great detectives and
real strong, strong people. But, you know, every kind of, every regime has its
high points and low points. And I think in policing, one of the things they do
badly, Rosie, in New South Wales Police, I always noticed this historically,
and some of the listeners might agree, that we had this terrible, Attitude when
there was something uncovered badly in a unit the first thing that was to
change the unit name

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:

and
I don't know any other organisation in the world in military or cops to do
that.

Oh, no, okay It's like a bit of 21 division. We'll make it the
state investigative group. I'll go get rid of the drug squad We'll make it the
state drug group. I mean just keep it the drug squad for that You know the old
Sam for God's sake but um So the state investigative group consisted of gaming
vice and special licensing.

So it was sort of hammering like the strip clubs, the gaming
houses, you know, sell and slide grog through all those. It was all tax
orientated. And I guess there was still leftovers of the sex industry still
being that kind of hoodoo run by crooks too again, all criminal based.

Yeah. And

uh, I think that was kind of reinforced when I went to the drug
work that I saw the same kind of heads popping up.

Who were running the games, who were running the girls, you
know, your Louis Bayers and all your type of, , Trooks and those guys, and they
were all tied up in a myriad of crimes, and so, uh, just ways to wash their
money, I guess. So yeah, so, uh, Gaming, , Gaming Squad Surveillance Unit, ,
worked with some very colourful people down there.

That was a pretty colourful unit. It was sort of like a hybrid.
It took half were plainclothes designated detectives and the other half with
GDs and high patrol. So there was a few, someone might even say me, but there
was a few people that got in there, uh, I thought by false pretenses. I
thought, well, that was a quick man's undercover work.

As they get in there, grow your mullet, put your white Reeboks
on and a year away, you know, it's a, it was pretty mediocre, really a lot.
There was some great operators in there, but it was, there was a few that came
in there that. As we say in a lot of different jobs, I don't know if it is in
the cops, but you get the bends, you come up too quick.

And there was a few of that in there. Anyway, I lost a couple
of, I lost a good mate down the crime commission, it was the State Drug Crime
Commission in those days. And he, him and another guy got killed in a follow,
and the car was sliced in half up Tamworth Way, Manila, up near Manila
actually, I don't remember that.

Yeah, back, oh, you might not have been around then, , we're
talking 88.

Rosie Skene:

Yep.

Andy MacFarlane:

And,
, both killed, very tragic, one, one was getting married shortly thereafter and
it was just terrible. I mean, I knew of the crew down there, because I played
footy with a couple of the guys, so I knew they had this secret little covert,
, team down there, and a good boss who I'd worked with before, and next thing
you know, a good mate of mine, he was at the Vice squad, and I was at the
Gaming squad, we were asked to go down and fill those dead men's shoes, which
is a really, quite a tough gig, yeah, when you go walking into a very, uh, into
a unit that's mourning, , and grieving, hmm, so, So, yeah, that's it.

, and then we, so we worked on, down there, we worked on the
Lebanese and on the Romanians. There was two distinct terms of reference down
there. And, uh, I forgot my first taste of undercover work down there. So they
said, oh, Andy, here you go. You go and hang out with these crooks out at
Cabramatta and Fairfield.

Here's a bag of money. Here's a car. Um, do your best kind of
thing, which

Rosie Skene:

So that
was in training day?

Andy MacFarlane:

Yeah, it's not like I was doing street level deals at the cross of foilies in
the pub. It was like major heroin dealers, and it was pretty hard to crack, you
know, particularly white men. It is, I don't care what anyone says, people get
up you for profiling.

Yeah.

I'll tell you right now, it'd be a lot easier for a young
Romanian police officer to crack a Romanian crime group than for a good old
Aussie boy from the Shire. From the Shire. Yeah, yeah, um, you had to sort of
learn a lot of, I mean, I understood the street, I was a good, like I was
street wise from being a teenager.

But you know, you're starting to get into the heroin industry
and other drug, major drug trafficking. You've got to know your prices, you've
got to know your quantities, you've got to know your profit margins and you've
got to know your street codes and all that. And that all came out of the
course, but I hadn't done the course yet.

So I sort of had to backtrack and do the course later, which,
um, Yeah, so I was there doing UC work for quite a few, quite a few, maybe good
12, 18 months, and then the Drug Enforcement Agency was formed.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

But
what they wanted to do, they had all these different drug units, they had the
Commonwealth State Joint Drug Task Force, they had the State Drug Crime
Commission, the State Drug Group, and so they said, look, let's just, ,
consolidate them all, and it was a really, really good model.

Yeah. And we'll bring all the people in and we'll set up these
different task forces. It was five task forces. There was the plantation unit,
the support unit, and the undercover unit. And it was, uh, it's a terribly good
model. Again, the Royal commission came around. What did they do? They
disbanded it and started, gave it a new name.

And instead of just getting rid of the bad guys. So, um, I went
to task force street, uh, under Rod Harvey, a tremendous leader of men and
women, great, great commander, really experienced crew of people there. And,
uh, started, uh, off there, but I still wanted to go back to undercover. So,
um, I got, I got approached by the commander because he knew I'd been working
down the other, other place.

And he said, look, you know, we'd like to have you down at the
undercover unit and, uh, maybe at a pub, as you do. Yeah, that's the enemy.
Talking, yeah, talking out the side of your mouth. Yeah. And, uh, he said, Oh,
we better get you on that course. So I went down to the course and that was a
really cool course and met a lot of good people there and people I'd already
known.

Rosie Skene:

You'd
already been working in Undercover for 18 months. Yeah. Yeah. And then you did
the course.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah. Yeah. I sort of did an arse about, you know. So I actually did pretty
well on the course, believe it or not.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
can imagine.

Andy MacFarlane:

And,
uh, and then, um, yeah, down in the Undercover unit, again, worked with some
great people.

It was a great little unit. Tight. Um, Isolating, you know,
like I'm a bit of a social butterfly, so you weren't allowed to go to police
do's, you weren't allowed to go to police footy functions, you weren't allowed
to play police footy when you

weren't supposed to. You know, sometimes you'd sneak in the
back door of a police function and catch up with people on the quiet, because
you missed them, you know, your workmates all of a sudden you've got this crew
that you're just totally immersed in.

Uh, and some other jobs are quite like that, too. Uh, it's not,
it's not on its own domain, undercover work, but, uh, I did miss the social
aspect, but I love the work, and I love the freedom. It's a really free, you
know, it was a free job. You're super accountable. People think, oh, you just
roll around in a fast car with a big bag of money, but Yeah, half the time
you're wearing a device, half the time you've got surveillance following you,
and half the time you're being covered by another crew.

And, you know, so, , it's not as easy to get in trouble down
there as you'd think, , it's, uh, so we had a good team and we, you had some
real strong workers and some people along for the ride. And, uh, that will
always be the case in most places. So. Put in a bit of time there and did some,
uh, you know, some comments back to the drug commission, did a job down in NCA,
National Crime Authority, which is where I wanted to go.

It was nice to get a sniff that place out a bit. Um, and then,
yeah, look, there was a bit of movement and we sort of, we thought about, a
change of lifestyle, a sea change, my wife and I, and she's an ex, she was in
the job. Um, she wanted to get out of Sydney and, um, The director of the DA
was really supportive because I'd had a couple of threats, so we didn't really
take them seriously, but I thought, well, you know, the time's right.

I got a little baby girl, um, , my wife was at the airlines and
when he said, where would you like to go? I don't know why I didn't say
Coolangatta, but I said Canberra. Oh, yep. Yeah, well, I got a secondment to
the AFP, and they wanted to take me at the drug operations branch down there,
and , they wanted to, they didn't have a real strong undercover capability, and
they were seeing what we were doing up in Sydney, and they were going like,
we'd like to get on top of that, but, Our hierarchy doesn't like undercover
work, and that came from a historical, in the early days the narcotics work was
done by customs, even in Australia, so all the federal UC work was done by the
customs narcotics bureau, and the feds didn't like it, and it was a real like,
and there was some crossovers, some guys had left and gone to the other place
and vice versa, and whatever happened down there, there's some real nasty vibes
about what had happened, so they kind of brushed undercover work.

Uh, which I praise it, because I mean every major police force
in the world is a bread and butter, right? Covert investigations are, they
solve heaps of crime. Very effective. Yeah, and it's cost effective, too. You
know, instead of putting a million guys, you just put one of your own in there.
Yeah, and it's better, and it's better than informant, because you've got
credibility, and they generally don't tell lies.

Generally. Yeah. So, uh. So off we, you know, we went down
there and they were lucky they transferred my wife to the Qantas club down
there at the airport, which was great. So it was nice. She kept her career and
I went down there and I had a fantastic time with the AFP guys. I'd left,
there's guys I know now that'll probably say, what the hell are you doing
talking to that bird on that, on that podcast and wrapping the AFP?

Cause I generally always got on with everyone from every type
of service. I wasn't that real territorial. Sort of fact, factor where, , some
of the older detectives, they hated the AP, and I'm pretty sure the AP hated
the NSW, but in the W, you had Roger and all them people running around. No
wonder they didn't like us, because we had some red operators up here.

And don't, don't worry, there's a couple amongst their crew
too, they just tend to get a better run out of it. But, , I got treated like a
king down there and I did some really good jobs and, uh, ended up sort of
sliding across into their, uh, counter terrorist, , teams. Uh, I really enjoyed
the training down there and doing jobs with them.

So it's kind of a bit of hybrid work. And then at Endemis
Convent, I, um, because we liked it down there, my wife was pregnant with
number two. , when he was born in Queenbeyan, I transferred across to the Monaro
Drug Unit and, , or Monaro Detectives to start with, and then, then across to
the Drug Unit, and, uh, we had, I had a fantastic four years there.

That was my bush policing Rosie . 40, 40, 000 square kilometres
of coast and snowy mountains and lots of crooks in the middle there and bikies
and ethnic crime groups and mainly crops, but a few good speed labs and, you
know, some pretty good crooks down there, which we managed to sort of gather up
and charge and get rid of over the four or five years we were down there.

It was really a really good operational tempo. We were flat
out, there was four of us, worked our ass off.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's a big place to cover.

Andy MacFarlane:

Yeah, well, we had big jobs too, and you know, what's really cool about that,
we, I'm not being detrimental to the people before us, I just don't think that
they had the same team dynamic as we had, because it's all about the dynamic,
it's like a football team.

You know, you can have a footy team that's in play in the NRL,
and maybe they've got a bad captain, or they've got the wrong half back
playing, or the wrong lop, forward and all of a sudden the team doesn't win a
game and you change two people out and they win the premiership the following
year. So very much like a workplace.

I always like to think sport mimics life. , I use a lot of it
in my analogies now when I'm working with, I talk to them because I love their
footy up there and they kind of really get the whole, yeah, look, you can't
bludge on your mate at work because it's like bludging on your mate on the
football field and the gap gets created and then something happens.

So the, the tempo down there, and we put a lot of initiatives
in place to like we'd written them. I wrote a covert investigations SOP manual
on. The how to when you run an office. And we, we didn't even have that, we
didn't even have that at the undercover unit in Sydney. And that became a, a,
a, , a milestone for us and, and for, for the guys to operate.

And I went down and had lunch with a couple of the current guys
down there with a couple of the old guys in Canberra. And what was fantastic to
hear. Was the same intensity in the same tempo, 20 years later, 25 years later,
that unit still has a really good culture of going and getting them and, and
biting off big jobs that most four man units or four person unit, would it
really?

They'd probably flick it up the, up the chain to, you know,
state drug group or whatever, . So we weren't scared of anything down there.
And it takes, does take a lot of courage. You know, you've got to have courage,
courageous people around you. And you're a small unit. You've got to look after
each other, , as best you can.

From a welfare point of view as well and family. So there was
all that kind of thing happening. But all that good stuff over there kind of
takes its toll on the other stuff back at home, you know. So anyway, after four
or four and a half, five years down there, I was kind of keen to get back to
Sydney. I sort of.

I didn't like bumping crooks when I was down me day out
shopping. That's what I hated about country policing. That

Rosie Skene:

does
suck about country policing.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, and uh, and most of mine weren't for jaywalking. You know, they were
getting out of jail after you put them in for a lag, for uh, trafficking or
whatever.

And they, yeah, and I didn't need them. I just got tired of
that shit with my family being around, you know. So I wanted to get back to
Sydney. I like the anonymity of a big city as a police officer. And, um, so the
DEA graciously took me back. And, um, I'd been back for a year, and this would
be something probably interesting for you.

I got seconded to a task force, , it's a big super secret task
force, right in the middle of the Royal Commission. , it was on police
corruption and, , ten unsolved murders up around the Coffs Harbour, Port
Macquarie area. And it was all related to this big drug growing family out west
of Kempsey. Um, pretty much a cartel up there, they were real good crooks, and
they were sort of suspect of either committing some of the murders themselves,
or certainly instigating the murders, and paying people to knock these anti
drug crusaders, and people who stumbled across crops, and so they were all cold
cases.

And, uh, so there was a crew of us of about 20 in the task
force, maybe 15, and we had a really good commander and, , I was given the job
as a covert operations coordinator for the task force, which meant sort of
oversight and all the electronic, uh, intelligence gathering or your phone
taps, listing devices, yada, yada, yada.

Managing the informants on behalf of the, the case officers,
even though they're informants. I sort of had this overarching kind of thing,
and then running all the UCs up there, because we ran a heap of undercovers up
there and trying to slice the whole community up and get some leverage on the
armed murder.

So, it's, uh, yeah, using the military up there, and, uh, it
was, uh, Big job, I mean, we ran one job up there, Operation Tosca, I think I
ran it for 70 days With the ADF up in the, dug into the mountains up there in
it, military trucks and stuff I mean, it was the largest military police
operation since the Vietnam War.

So there was some really interesting stuff came out of that and
I was running my own little war up there, you know, it's great.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:

and
But again, isolation, you know, working on my own There's a bit of yin and yang
in it, isn't there, like It's great to be off, uh, given the opportunity to,
you know, you're in a kind of a covert mode, so you're driving a covert
vehicle.

I've been doing that for years anyway. Uh, left alone to your
own devices, and I was productive, so the more productive you are, the more
left alone you are. Uh, and then you kind of get into that kind of no man's
land, where, you know, everyone forgets about you, or maybe you forget about
them, I'm not really sure about that.

But, yeah, the wheels started falling off on that task force.
It was a very high pressure job. And we were answering to the Royal Commission,
because they wanted to know everything we did. And they were ourselves, because
they were following us around as well. And we were working on these jobs that
they gave us.

They were sort of spot checking us up there. So we had a bit of
fun with them, running them around. A bit of anti surveillance and, you know,
what not. Um, But yeah, look, we didn't solve all the cold cases, but what we
did was we ended up getting Lindsay Robert Rose for five murders. He was one of
our informants and, uh, and he, he'd been, he'd murdered a heap of people, more
than five, but we got him for five and, uh, he pleaded to five murders and he's
doing multiple life sentences now.

He was a pretty nasty guy. Uh, so the guys did an awesome job
on that. , Yeah, by that time I was struggling, I had problems at home and uh,
I wanted to try and resurrect the marriage and I thought, yeah, maybe, maybe a
country uniform posting might be just what the doctor orders, has to be within
the, has to be near the salt water bus.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Beach boy, but uh, I sort of missed out on a
GD spot at, uh, Kiama. Yep. Yeah, that's I got trumped by someone else. It's
fair enough. You know, it's not what you know It's who you know in the country
policing and that was pretty much the death knell from a marriage. So, uh, But
I I needed a break from locking people up.

I I was really, I was Yeah, tired of that and, uh, I was
offered a spot for the Olympics to go to the PSG, which is now the CT Command.
And it's the Protective Security Group in those days. So I went down to Dignity
Protection and, , yeah. Ended up having a good time there, right, and we wrote
the National Base Competencies for Close Protection for the Olympic Games.

We trained about six, seven hundred police, put them through
the CP courses and got to watch them all roll out. Roll out of the courses and
straight into the one of the probably one of the best Olympic games I think
they've ever had. Um, all the while I'm having this massive nervous breakdown
And sort of struggling with a bit of drug use as well left over from the
undercover unit Which I probably got back into because of the stress.

Yeah, so you find you find a crutch whether it's alcohol or
something else gambling I guess I don't gamble, but I figured maybe that's one
of those kind of support things and uh Yeah, I was in a pretty bad way around
about the Olympics and onwards and, you know, I busted up my wife and so, you
know, I, I think people, , people go, yeah, everyone gets divorced in that, in
that job type thing.

But I think if you compound everything and you lose your job,
you leave your kids, like you walk out of the house with looking at your kids
for the last time, you know, environment that you know, which is your house,
your wife and your kids type thing. And you lose your house. So you've lost
your job, you've lost your professional identity, you've lost your family.

You know, I was sleeping rough for a while. , it was pretty
tough. I was stealing food. I was living it. And then I was lucky enough, I got
a job at Qantas as a baggage handler. So I went back to the airline after 20
something years, 22 years. So that was kind of, and I was a baggage handler,
and that kind of paid for everything I had to pay in those days, uh, and I
managed to buy a Kombi, and I clapped out Kombi, and then I gave me a bed, and,
uh, I used to just camp down the, down the beach near one of the beaches at
Cronulla, and I'd use the showers in the pavilion, and, or I'd shower at work,
and uh, I'd cook up my tucker in the back of the Kombi.

Uh, or I'd go to work and they'd, you know, they used to feel
sorry for a few of us divorced blokes out there and the ladies would come off
the plane with the uneaten business class meals with the foil over the top and
give them to us, we'd eat those, you know. It's pretty tragic really when you
think about that sort of stuff, but uh, it takes you pretty close to the edge.

Yeah. It was a dark time. It was also, I don't know if any of
you listeners have been through that, and I was seeing the likes all through
that and I've been diagnosed with. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from Extended
Periods of Undercover Work. That was the, kind of, the boom. And then, uh, I
went through the whole disengagement process, but they knocked me back on the
HOD.

I don't know, can you believe that? And I was This is
interesting.

Rosie Skene:

I know
this. I've heard this. to say, because I find this actually incredible, but it
still happens, right? Like people are still fighting. I've

Andy MacFarlane:

seen
people getting out with a paper clip cut on their finger. And I, you know, I
mean, and you've got people who've done way even more work than me who are
struggling.

I had five years at the district court to get my HOD, which
put, and it put me back so badly in my getting better. I was more stressed from
that shit, Rosie, than I was from the PDS, Stephen Undercover work, that
really, Compounded all the problems.

Yeah.

And oh yeah. I, I, I'd chewed on the old Glock 17 a couple of
times until they took it off me, you know, not a good place to be, but I was
never gonna do it.

Actually, when I look back, in retrospect, I remember the, the
psychs, it's the first question the psychs asked you, you know, have you ever
considered suicide? And I said, look. I considered the concept of suicide, but
not actually suicide. I've lost a few good mates in the cops from it. , my dad
had always kind of, you know, instilled in us how good life was.

And how rich being alive is, because he was a great
outdoorsman, he was a mountaineer and awesome guy. And he used to tell us when
we were young, you know, if things get that bad in your life, just, just pack
your bag and fuck off somewhere else.

Yeah. And

it was good, it was sage advice. Never forgot it. So I was able
to kind of, you know, I knew I had to hang around for a little while with the
kids because I didn't want to leave them too much.

So I got a couple of local jobs. And I got a promotion, I
actually went into oil and gas after trying bags at Qantas, into refining, and
I got a couple of senior safety roles, but I, I realized that when you have
PTSD or PTS, I think we call it now, you've got a ceiling. There's a ceiling
that you hit with responsibility.

Uh, some have a bigger ceiling than others, and I think my
ceiling is quite high. Uh, it's come from a lot of, , progress, but I've got a
ceiling. If I get tipped into a job too, too deep and too complex, and with too
many moving parts, I'll tend to crash and burn. And so I found, I found that
kind of my, my guardrails what to stay inside.

, I knew I was capable of, , contributing in a workplace. And,
you know, I sort of believed that I was able to get better and better as I got
older, , which happens most days, but you have your bad days. Um, so yeah, I,
but I, I also too, and a lot of listeners are ex coppers listening out there,
you know, when you leave the cops in less than a perfect way, , you feel like
you've got some unfinished business to do.

And I'd been in SWOS for a few years and I'd been on the guns
and I thought, oh, and I'd done the dignitary protection and I thought, and you
know, Afghanistan and Iraq were going off their heads at the time and I was
working for a company called Unity Resources Group or Unity Risk was their
office in Sydney and they did a lot of that stuff and I said, well, my mate
running it was an ex copper and I said, look, mate, I wouldn't mind going back
to some close protection.

He goes, well, actually, we've got one coming up next week,
Andy, off to Pakistan looking after a guy. So. You know, that was kind of
awesome, like I had this, wow, perfect, but you know what? When you're planning
your own CP operation, you know, in a nation that's right on the back door of
Afghanistan, and you're going over there on your own, with no backup, no
cavalry, you know, you're not a government, you haven't got a badge and a gun
on your hip.

I remember driving out the airport, this is quite a, uh, an
interesting morning, I was driving out the airport with my big I had body armor
in there for me and the principal. I had all the medic kit. I'd already
organized a driver over there. I was going ahead of the principal because I
didn't have anyone to meet us there.

So I go ahead. He was safe from Sydney to Pakistan in a plane
and I would meet him there and then we'd take up the protective package there.
But as I drove past Sydney Airport, the Prime Minister's jet was there and I
saw the boys at the bottom of the stairs that I used to work with. And they're
probably, a couple of them will hate me for this, but I won't mention their
names.

And I looked at them and thought, nah, he wouldn't be able to
do this. He definitely wouldn't do this. Yeah, he'd handle this. So I was sort
of looking at the what, who was, and it was pretty, pretty good. Yeah, you
really challenge yourself doing that stuff. , and that, so I went over there,
you know, roared around Pakistan for a while, ended up going back to Dubai, did
some work over there for six months, um, quite a bit of work for the Middle
East after Saudi, um, and yeah, I just wanted to get that kind of whole sort of
security police gun type thing out of the system and show that I could still do
it.

And I think because of the civvy stuff, it kind of, everything
else that I was pursuing and looking at for work. I, I was, I was, it became
more civilianized along the journey, you know, which really helped me, I think.
One of the things I learned with a lot of the mates, and my first CV, and it's
pretty common this, Rosie, and you probably would have seen it, my first CV was
about 10 pages long.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

And I had about 20 cases that I was really proud of in the cops that I put in these
big paragraphs. And I did this, and I'm, that's, I locked up this guy, and you
know, blah, blah, blah. And I had a girlfriend who was in HR and she goes,
Panda, you know we look at, we look at a CV on average about 60 to 70 seconds.

She goes, get it down to two pages, and I was shocked, I said,
hang on, what do you mean two pages, that's all good stuff in there. She goes,
prospective employers not interested in all those, they'll be tickled up by it,
give it a paragraph of everything. Yeah. And then go into what you can do to
make that company better and more profitable.

So, you know, because we're institutionalizing the cops. We
tend to look at it just as war stories and pride of the job. Whereas then I'm
interested in that, they do like a little bit of it. Some of the guys you end
up working with could get intrigued by your past. You know, I still get that
now and nowadays.

There's a lot of crime groupies out there as you'd know Rosie.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:
People love it. They love it. Oh, Australia's massive for it. So, um, and guys
are just, oh yeah, when you're working, and particularly if you're from the
80s, Like, I was an 80's child in the cops. That's when all the bad stuff was
going down.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, it
was wild back then.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, look, I think the amount of time that I was in the drug squad and the
gaming squad, I bumped a lot of them, but I, look, no one's an angel in those
days in the cops. But there were lines, there were red lines in the sand, and
there were things like, you know, you don't sell your mates out, you don't let
a bike continue to do the wrong thing and cop a quid off him, you know, they
were my lines, and some bikes would probably laugh at me now, huh, you're a
moral compass panda, you know, like, I had mine and like I said, I wasn't
perfect.

I was far, but I had sort these own things that I just, you
know, and like you don't sell out a uc on a job. And that's been done, that's
been done on jobs. Blokes have been sold out 40 grand. The guy dropped a dime
on an undercover cop 'cause he's the guy, the crook offered him 40 K to now his
identity. I mean, that's just bullshit.

Yeah.

I'd kill that. I'd smoke that bloke in a giga second, you know?
Yeah. Uh, and he, he know, he got outta the cops over that. And he knows every
time he sees me and other scuttles away, you know. So, there was some pretty
nasty stuff there.

Rosie Skene:

How did
you, sorry, I just wanted to ask how, because you've had so many diverse roles
in the co ops, how did you go transitioning undercover operative, detective,
dig pro, you know, your DEA, and then your tactical policing as well?

Like for me, it feels like you're gathering skills.

Andy MacFarlane:

Yeah, well, I'm a Gemini. I'm a left handed Gemini with ADHD, so that would
probably give you an inkling of my adaptability.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

Um,
I, I did the negotiators course, still went to a few sieges as a primary
negotiator in the bush. That was pretty interesting stuff.

But, you sort of are, I suppose, I think the Thai girls call
it, what do they call a bloke who goes over to Thailand and floats around and
shag and everything that he can? And they call him a butterfly. And I'm not so
sure whether I wasn't a butterfly in the cops. Go around the different flat
like the different units and I said, you know, I was very lucky Rosie I didn't
have a sponsor.

I just believe and you know It's probably a little bit of
vanity in here or maybe a bit of pride mixed in with it But I did a really good
job everywhere. I went I was solid or solid with the guys And I think I just
went ahead and, and I, and I, and they said, yeah, we'll take him, he's cool.
And, , I was, wasn't scared of kicking the door in and going through, and I
mean, you know, I take my hat off to every UC, you know, you're out there on
your own a lot of that, doing a lot of that stuff, I mean, people get
commendations for a lot less than what a UC does every day of his duty.

You know, he, yeah, so Um, but yeah, look, I was fortunate and
I got jammed up a bit doing all these courses because I kind of got a bit of a,
you know, people, a lot of the whole working detectives get the shit. So you
spent too much time in a course of Panda should have been out walking up bad
guys, but you need education.

Yeah.

You've got, you look at all of, you know, any good
organisation, they get their people skilled up. And that means taking you off
the floor while you get that certification. Now, if you want to do
surveillance, you've got to do the surveillance course. Want to do undercover
work? Got to do the undercover work.

Want to be in SWOS? Got to do the SWOS operators course, et
cetera, et cetera. But there's a period there from like, 88, oh sorry, 89,
through to 92, where I did my SWOS course. My investigator's course, I didn't
do my PCI course because I joined, I didn't apply to do my D's course. What, I
did the first couple of years in surveillance at the gaming squad just as a
plainclothes constable.

So I should have probably put in for it then and I would have
done the RPC course and then the detective's course. But, so in the first, in
that four year window, I did the SWOS course, the investigator's course,
negotiator's course, the undercover course. And then my detective's training in
1991. That's fantastic.

Yeah, but I was running jobs too. I mean, I remember getting in
the shit a couple of times for going out of the classroom at Goulburn and
talking to informants. They'd be ringing me and I'd have to duck out and I had
jobs going, I had to delegate the jobs to blokes and the instructor would go,
what are you doing?

I said, well, I've got an informant mate in the middle of a big
job. He goes, you've got to come in here, you need to sit down and do the
course. And so it was kind of, you know, it was a really cool time, but it was
busy. Yeah. Yeah. It was busy. And they were all good courses that held, held
in good stead later in life too, you know.

Negotiator's course, you know, learn how to talk to people, .

Rosie Skene:

Good
skills, yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, great, great skills. And then the detective's course, like, even in
safety with invest, incident investigations and interviewing people, like, you
know, everywhere I've been, I mean, most police are in safety, they are usually
well regarded because they're just so good on paper, compared to Joe Average.

And you don't think we are. , we have that problem struggling
with thinking we're any good at anything. We, we shit on a lot of people when
it comes to report writing and incident writing and all that, you know, very
good at it. It was our bread and butter, wasn't it?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
absolutely. With the undercover work, , the emotional impact of that must have
been huge.

Even if you didn't think so, maybe, at the time, because you're
in the thick of it, like, All that deception, high risk. How, how did you
manage that living a double life and the emotional toll of that with your, you
know, you had a family.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah. Well, they, they, they kind of, I went through a period where it wasn't
in writing, but they kind of liked married people down there to a degree.

people that, you know, they found that the young guys could get
a bit loose and they've got to go. And obviously they depended on your, on your
persona and, and, and your disposition. But, um, yeah, it's tough on the, my
wife, my ex wife hated the work. She hated me doing it, you know, and you're
coming home with a couple of wallets in your bag with different IDs and you're
putting your pistol in the drawer next to your bed and you're going away, you
pack your bag and you go, so I'm going to work, honey.

And I see you give your kids a kiss on the forehead and then
you don't come back for it. Rare, it was rare that that happened, but it was, I
don't think anyone likes their partner to be away from them without knowing
where they are, what they're doing to a degree, without being intrusive, but we
all want to know where our hubby is for the next week.

You know, and if you can't tell them, it stresses them, and I
think too, you know, and it also breeds a little bit of discontent, and I think
unless the relationship is really solid, it can breed a bit of mistrust as
well, but from the isolation point of view, Yeah, that was one of the big
things with my PTSD

uh, I didn't think it at the time, but I think that was, I
mean, I've been to a heap of critical incidents like every other uniformed cop.
There have been plenty of brains blown out and people missing heads in car
accidents and all the shit that you see, old deceased people have been dead for
six weeks and all the shit.

And shootings and murders up, you know, in the city. Uh, I, I,
I don't think a lot of that affected me as much as actually doing the UC work
long term, Rosie, because the isolation, that's what happens when, that's why a
lot of the, some of them turn to the Crooks, because they're in the Crooks
company all the time, and you get the Stockholm syndrome, as you know.

Yeah. And they're, and they're a lot of good people. I mean,
everyone's got this preconception, I've watched movies, that all the criminals
are real nasty, evil, gnarly looking people, and I think probably, you know,
you'd look at some of the guys, and, you look at that well known one up in
King's Cross, he's a slick as shit, that young fella, and a good style of a
fella, he's not, not a, and, you know, I got to, I got to like a few of them, I
mean, I never took, never lost, never lost, left my eye off the ball where I
knew I wasn't going to lock them up.

But I remember one woman I was quite fond of. I fancied this
woman a lot. I mean, it never played up at all, and I never would. But, I sort
of felt really bad looking at her in the courtroom when I was Yes, I've seen
her. seeing her seven years See you, honey, see you in seven years time, sort
of thing. And these big puppy eyes looking up at me, you know.

Um, so I guess a bit of that does have an effect. I was in a
bit of a shooting incident in, uh, 95. That was right at the end of my
undercover work. And that was pretty Yeah, I mean, it's on a couple of other
podcasts, I don't really want to regurgitate it, Rosie, but it was pretty nasty
and a bit in your face and things went, yeah, a lot of things operationally and
procedurally went bad that night, which created the, the circumstance that I
was in and I was party to some of those poor decisions, , which really nearly
had fatal consequences and for me and the bad guys in the room, , but I think
there, there is an incident I think that snaps people.

Like you said, it builds up, you know, and something then
cracks it, and then you've got it out in the open. I think that incident, June
1995, down the coast, , was probably the, yeah, oh, and then probably then
compounding that three years on that task force up north, it was hidden, I hid
it, I hid the stress, because I wanted to, you know, it wasn't, as you would
have spoken to other people, it wasn't cool.

To put your hand up and be on the stress express, as they call
it. Not in the 90s. No. Or the 2000s. Yeah, yeah, well that's right, I mean,
and now it's so out, it's so good, I mean, I sometimes often think that we're
all going to choke on PTS but nah, no, you don't want to go back the other way.

Rosie Skene:

No.

Andy MacFarlane:

You know, and everyone's different, and I think the thing I learnt too, Rosie, post
cops.

You don't have to be in the emergency services or in the
military to get PTS there's a lot of things happen to people, like I, my son
got badly assaulted. Quite a few years ago when he was a teenager, and they
kicked his head in basically, and he's got titanium all through his face now.

Wow.

And, um, he got PTS out of it.

Oh. And

I, I don't believe that I gave him the, the enough focus that I
should have. Over that, because I was still in that realm of, and he only
mentioned it once, I was more worried about his physical injuries, not his
mental injuries, and I was sort of in that kind of, ah mate, aharden up, you've
just gotten in a l blue, I've been in plenty of those, I've never had my
fucking face

reconstructed, like he did, , and I feel really bad about that.

Yeah, I kind of really, , so I think, , I always like being at
the sharp end. I think most police worth their salt want to be at the pointy
end and you want to be there as long as you can and, , just be careful what you
wish for. Yeah. But I sort of, uh, yes, go ahead.

Rosie Skene:

No, I was going to say like, it's so true.

Cause from your story, you know, you're doing all these.
Amazing things like your task force and you dig pro for the Olympics and you're
like, really peaking. But it's also the same time when everything else is sort
of falling apart as well. And I've noticed that with a few people actually
doing. Best things in their career, the things that they're probably most proud
of and then very shortly after yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:

that's

Rosie Skene:

when it
all falls apart

Andy MacFarlane:

Very
much a pattern.

Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that Rosie and it's sort of going on from
post cops I guess because I They want a list. I think I ran away. I think all
the overseas work Rosie gave me the opportunity to run away for everything
Yeah, you know, I was part of the child support agency structure, you know, I
was a, I was a, I was a unit turned out by that.

That was tough, but I, I reckon I realized and recognized my
responsibilities all through it. I mean, I coached my kids in soccer and I was
always there for my kids and, uh, I might not have been, but yeah, real good
for him all the time. , but certainly, , I never, yeah. And then once they'd
sort of got older.

I kind of shot through. You know, I went to the Earthquake
Commission in New Zealand for 18 months and then over to end up jagging a job
in Asia for, well, best part of eight years with a big hotel chain. Marriott,
or wasn't Marriott, then it was Star Wars, Marriott bought them out, but I had,
you know, over 550 hotels in 14 countries and these were, you Like, we had
resorts in Borneo, and Tibet, and Mongolia, and Koh Samui, and I just, I ran
away, you know, and I was getting paid to run away, and I was getting paid to
see all these things that I wanted to see as a person, that I thought I never
would because I'd lost out on a lot of, two marriages, three kids, half of
those people didn't talk to me, the other half did, you know.

Regrets over my career and pride, that whole mix of regret and
pride mixed up, I think that becomes a bit of a rabbit hole. You got to be
careful of, you know, going down. People say you shouldn't have regrets. I
disagree. I think regrets are a great, Awakener to give you a couple little
pressure points in your heart and in your soul of where not to go again.

Yeah. Don't go back to that. So people go, Oh, you shouldn't
have regressed. Yeah. No, I think they're not bad. I mean, you keep them zipped
up and put away, they don't become a monkey on your back. But they just keep
you, I don't want to go that way again, and um, so yeah, I basically travelled,
I lived out of a suitcase for 12, 13 years, you know, and it was great, , I met
some awesome people, I realigned my own kind of, I know people think I'm a bit
spiritual, but my own soul, I was able to get back a , credibility myself,
because I'd lost a lot of credibility with the drug use and the banged up and I
was a loose prick when I got out of the cops for a while, running around with
the wrong people.

That didn't work. I mean, I found out that didn't work in about
five seconds. Uh, and people want to hang off you. It's a bit iconic. Once the
crooks know he's an ex undercover cop, we might be able to use him. He's just
like, yeah, sure, hell in your dreams type thing, you know. But I was certainly
courted and fated a little bit, but it was all shit, it was all superficial,
you know.

Your real friends are your real friends. And I brushed a lot of
my mates in the cops for a long while, Rosie. I, You know, I, I, I, I threw a
blanket over the organisation and my friends, unfairly, and I just hated the
blue, anything to do with the blue I despised. Probably, there were some
personal aspects to that too that I won't go into here, but, , Because I threw
a blanket over everything, I didn't talk to a lot of my mates, and I think it
was in fairness to them, too.

They were senior police, and I was pretty fucking loose. Yeah.
And I'm not so sure whether they actually wanted to be seen too much with me
through that period of time, but they still, though anyway, I ended up putting
on this big do down the coast. I went and hired this big house a few years ago,
and got them all down there for a boys weekend, and gave them all big hugs and
kisses, and we're all good, and I'm going drinking with them Thursday night.

So, I, you like to go and see the boys a couple of times a
year, or I do love their company still. And the lives get bigger and wider as
you get older. But they're a fantastic group of people and um, yeah, they're an
important part of my life. But also my private friends, who watched all this
shit from the sidelines.

My two best mates, I dinner with w them the other night. They,
I've known them 60 years. And they have put up with this petulant child as a
friend. Call Andy and watch me do all this stuff and probably a bit proud about
some of it and probably going you're an idiot other times , and we're still
mates and you know, it's really good and , so they Yeah, but you know when
you're going through PTS when you're having that initial big breakdown And
you're affected by a lot of different things.

Even if you take the drugs out of it I had, um, when I was
running those CP courses out at Holsworthy for the Olympics, I actually had,
um, what do you call it when you don't eat? Anorexia.

Yeah.

Anorexia is a symptom of PTS and,uh, and plus drugs and I was
training super hard as well. So I was like that. I was like skin and bones, but
I was fit, but I looked terrible apparently.

Everyone thought I looked like a junkie or, you know, I wasn't,
I did everything but probably put a needle up my arm, you know?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

Um,
and. When you've got that, your whole body, your whole chemical balance is out
of whack. You know, you're not thinking clearly at all, and you're making some
pretty poor decisions, and you're just sort of in, I think it's a bit selfish,
that type of behaviour, too, to a degree, Rosie.

I, I sort of think that, I know that we all go through bad
stuff and maybe, but I look back and think how stupid I was and how I should
have manned up a little bit more, but then maybe there's a release that's got
to be done, you've got to go through this cathartic, cathartic sort of process
to maybe pop out a better person.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
think, I agree with you, I guess, um, on both sides of that argument, you know,
you can be a little bit self indulgent. Sometimes with what you're going
through and not what's happening around you, but then you've got to go through
that shit in the mud, don't you? Like,

Andy MacFarlane:

yeah,

Rosie Skene:

try and
come out that other side.

Andy MacFarlane:
Definitely. And I think just going back to being in the job, I think that that
for me too is important when I was. in plain clothes I didn't think I was any
more special than anyone else.

I always remember my GD sergeant, he always said to me, he
said, Panda, you're going to go to all them U Butte places. You fuck up, you'll
be back here in a suit of blue with me on the truck.

I never forgot that. And, um, you know, I used to think, You
know, I was always trying to be really humble when I went into a police station
with an offender that wasn't my, because I didn't have a police station, I had
an office, and you're going to some country police station or some city police
station.

You know, the poor old Senior Constable, he's under the pump in
the charge room already, and the office is busy, and you know, I used to see
some dickheads come in with a, and go, Ah, there's an army, ah, there's a
squad, there's a squad, and like, like, they get a life power, like, these
people are your, they work with you, not against you.

Um, so there was that kind of, you know, I strove to be as
humble as I could in that job. , and if people tread on you because of that,
you know, I mean, it's a bit of an, they're on the cops, you've got to be
pretty tough when you're in the squads, as a detective in those days, you know,
like, you've got to have big shoulders, thick skin, , and, you know, you've got
to learn to stand up for yourself, I used to like having a fight, I used to
love boxing on, so I was pretty good because I had everyone bluffed.

I don't know. Yeah, look, it's, I tend to sort of have a little
bit light I view of it all now and I think if you get too serious about, I
mean, I can talk serious.

I do still get emotional over stuff, but, um, uh, it's real
though. It's

Rosie Skene:

your
real, it's your life.

Andy MacFarlane:
Definitely.

Rosie Skene:

And so I
think it's okay to be emotional about it. And yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:

it's

Rosie Skene:

me
sometimes, you know, I've recently had to speak about some things and it got me
and I didn't do it again, but it does.

Andy MacFarlane:

It's
hard. I mean, I try and every now and then I'll use a, uh, I'll use a police
story.

I don't do it much of it in safety in the mines, but what I try
and do is connect it with the guys and girls doing the right thing at the mine
and sticking to procedure and sticking to what their supervisors and managers
want. Because they're doing it for a reason. They're doing it to keep you safe.

And a lot of the people, I've said to them, I've said, Has
anyone here lost a workmate? And there's not a lot had. But the one or two that
have put their hand up and said, How you doing with that mate? He goes, They'll
say, 20 years, I'm still getting over it. And I try and humanize that, so they
all know, and yeah, so, I get cut up a bit about it even now, you know.

But I think, I'm Scottish, so I've got all that real crazy
emotions. When the bagpipes start playing, I start crying, so don't worry about
it. Yeah, but, uh, I'm in a pretty good place now. I think that's, you know,
I've got a great partner. That has a lot to do with it too. So, I mean, I was
unmarried for ten years, after marriages.

Um, I did a bit of dating and stuff. I wasn't on my own, but, ,
I never got serious with anyone for 10 years. But, , yeah, sooner or later, you
sort of bump someone in the end. We're both funny because we'd both been single
for so long. It took a bit of compromise to work each other out. Yeah. But
she's lovely and, uh, she's, you know, definitely there is a lot to be gained
from, , dating.

sharing your life and because it gives you a plan and I was
very good without a plan and that's probably why that covert work was so good
for me Rosie because I was a bit of a look for I was a creative cop. I mean, ,
undercover work is illusionary. And the best, the more, the more creative you
get, the less the crooks are going to think you're a cop.

And I remember one, one of my great mates, ex cop, and he has a
great saying that, in undercover work, you're only limited by your imagination
and the legislation. Oh, that's a great statement because we pulled on some
really unique jobs and they're like never been done. They probably have been,
you know, and I think what I wanted to touch on was the current batch of
undercovers post my job when I got out in 2002.

So I got out after 9 11 and I can only imagine what UC's have
been doing for the last 20 plus years. I mean, stuff that we never did, Rosie.
We very rarely got involved in politically motivated violence. , we very rarely
got in, well, we never got involved in terrorist, uh, groups. So I tip my hat
to all those who came after me after that conflict and during that conflict.

I mean, there's plenty of stories. I mean, I've still got a
couple of mates who are in that game. Um, and what some of those young people
have done in around the, you know, in Sydney. I won't say what suburbs, but you
know what I'm talking about. And, and, um, what they've done has been
outstanding. And a lot of that stuff goes unrewarded, and there's not a, a lot
of people won't, Won't chat like me from the U.

C. So you get quite criticized a bit by blokes in the job or
girls in the job for chatting, but I don't really give up methodology Some of
it's that old anyway I mean, I had one bloke get a shot at me the other month
Rosie and a good mate. He goes, oh fuck I know Pandy He just been on a, I was
on Adam's podcast and he goes, you know, you're talking about methodology I
said bro, it's 25 years old.

I could walk into Dymocks and buy a book on that shit. Don't
worry I'm not giving up stuff that's new So, but people, you know, I think
puppied is a little bit of, you know, some people don't like, they either don't
like you talking about it, or they probably wish they could talk about it, but
they can't.

They can't, yeah.

It's got to be something to do with that, I don't know. But I
like having a chat, because if you, you know, if you can help someone, and
opening up is really important, I mean, I'm getting a free psychoanalysis of
you today. You know, it's funny with the PTS with me. I don't know if your
listeners or anyone else is suffering.

I used to get the best benefit, if the person was conducive to
listening to me chatter. I'd get the best benefit of opening up to someone I
didn't know, versus someone I did know.

Rosie Skene:

And I'd
walk away There's no walls there, is there? Like, there's no expectation and
there's no history or anything like that.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, and I'd walk out of a pub after chatting, because you go, I heard you're
in the drug squad. I said, yeah, what was it, blah, blah, blah, and the next
thing you're talking about. And you walked out after about six schooners and a
half later. And they go, I feel pretty good now, just had a really good debrief
with somebody I don't even know his last name, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, I don't know what's going on with that.

Rosie Skene:

Can I
ask , when you left the cops and you had your five year matter going through
district court and you said, you know, you're using drugs, marriage breakup.
How did you dig yourself out of that hole? Because that would've been a bloody
shit time.

Andy MacFarlane:

I can know if it was, it was, it was a darkest hole. I, I, I'm sure other blokes
are in the dark, have been in the dark. Or women, yeah, sorry. But I just look
in the divorce sort of side of things. It is kinda a little bit weighed that
way. I know I shouldn't say that, but it's certainly, you know, you don't get a
lot of bang for your buck off the child support agency, let me say that,

Rosie Skene:

mate.

I can't even imagine. And especially, you know, you're saying
you're living out of a combi.

Andy MacFarlane:

Yeah. And I got caught shoplifting one day for a salami roll.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it was in my own area where I live. I was absolutely
starving. And I went back a couple of years later with a hundred dollar bill
and I gave it to the guy because I put on weight.

He didn't know who I was. I said, Oh mate, look, you don't even
need to worry about it. Just take this. And it was from a long time ago and you
let me go and you didn't call anyone. Cause imagine they did and the artist
positive. So I went back, I think I missed this in our conversation, I tested
positive when I went back on a rehabilitation program with the PTS at the
Mounted Police.

So I was playing up pretty bad and I reckon I was probably the
world's worst kept secret. And someone gave me up there and Healthy Lifestyles
come down and go, Hi, Healthy Lifestyles, we're here to do a random drug test.
First one on the list, Andy McFarlane. How much worse than it is, I walked up
to the toilet with a nurse and just, I walked out after it and never went back.

Yeah.

You know. And then the 181D, uh, which I was supposed to get, I
got served my drug test off a really good mate of mine who was a big boss in
the A district, and he had tears in his eyes standing at my front door of my
house. It was, it was just terrible, the whole, it was just, it was dramatic.
And maybe I, I don't know, maybe I just, the drama king, at the time, I
attracted it all.

And he, he was there, he goes, I don't want to have to do this,
man, after you, the good great career. And I said, mate, what are you going to
do? I'm sorry. And we both had a bit of a cry and I played footy with him, we
toured together in a repside and the police, uh, and then, uh, I was preparing
myself for a run with a 181D and it, uh, it never came.

Wow.

Never, ever came. It disappeared into the ether and I was
allowed to run out my 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Someone up there was looking over
my shoulder, looking down on me in a nice way, Rosie, and I was allowed to go,
but allowed to disengage medically, but not H. O. D., and then I had to go to
court, I thought, well, gee, I thought it would be nice to be there, but now
it's, uh, and the judge, the judge was really scathing of the cops, actually,
and he's summing up, yeah, he had to give it to them, and, , again, it was
another pretty teary day after five years, and my ex came along to that, got a
love, and she gave evidence, I was, you know, pretty proud of her for doing
that.

Um, because, yeah, she was pragmatic about it. She goes, uh,
you know, regardless of what happened to us, you guys haven't looked after this
guy. Yeah, you've run him into the ground and he probably should have been
pulled up. I mean, I think, I don't, I think there's, well, there is now,
there's 10 years, but I think that managers, you know, Need to look at people
and not just look at say, okay There's a tenure at the undercover unit now two
years with a two year option.

I think it is something like that All right, it's great. Sure,
and I think there's ten years in a lot of those Yeah, let's look at where we
come from before he came from the State Drug Crime Commission He'd been there
and they're doing UC work He then went to Task Force UND as a covert operations
coordinator, same type of work, covert, isolating, mastering his own destiny.

Shit, that's seven or eight years in a row. We better, he needs
to go back to the real world type thing. So there's certainly, you know, and I
think they all have, they have tightened it up because I mean there was a lot
of litigation there too, Rosie. A lot of people, I didn't do it, uh, I was
scared of getting caught.

I've come after if you lose, but I had a few friends from
undercover work that litigated and, , that, that period we're talking about
that kind of 96. Well the shooting was really the start of it, so I was 95,
started coming undone, I was in a real bad way by 98, I'd sort of skulked
through 2000 and 2001 and then off sick 2002, you know, uh, and then, and the
problem was when I went out baggage handling, I mean I'm sure you've heard
about baggage handlers.

Rosie Skene:

One or
two things, yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:
There I was trying to beat the drugs. The fucking place is full of it! And
like, and it was funny, most of it was marching powder, it was speed, because
everyone was, in those days it was pretty bad OH& S out there, you couldn't
do a lot of the work, overtime had to be double shifts. So instead of a four
hour overtime, it was eight hours, so it was a 16 hour

day. Wow,

yeah. Physically throwing bags.

Yeah.

So blokes got on it just to stay awake. It wasn't party, but
they did other stuff. There was some good crooks there, and some of them have
been picked up recently. I think one of the guys who I never suspected at all,
an older guy, he got done the other month for, uh, Half a ton of coke.

And when my mate, my mate rang me, I said, I thought that guy
wouldn't say shit for sixpence. There's no way I thought he was one of the bad
guys. He was like the white Don, older guy.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:

No,
there was a lot of crooks out there. , and I think even post 9 11, which I went
out there, I went out there on sick report.

I got a job out there, the cops didn't want me to do it, and I
said, well take it up with my site. He said, you got to work. Yeah. He's doing
menial labouring out there, he's throwing bags. So they let me work on the sick
leave, and you know, it wasn't, it's not big money out there. And I'd run my,
I'd run my money out on all my sick leave and my long service and the, the
extra sick leave that you get, I'd run all that out.

So I had, I was, you know, I had to live. And so I was out
there throwing bags, uh, and that was different out there because, you know,
there was three of us, four of us that were ex cops, they wouldn't talk to us
for the first six months. They wouldn't even sit in the meal room with you,
yeah, because you were the filth, you know.

And, uh, then after that kind of worked out, you're, oh shit,
he uses drugs, he's cool. Yeah, yeah. I kind of got led into the circle more
than the others, because they were pretty straight, they were the guys, but, ,
But yeah, there's a few, a few troubler diets out there for your bottom
feeders. Some genuine good guys, but, , it was a bad culture.

And I was a wharfie for a while, and that had its own culture
as well. And I couldn't even, couldn't even tell them I was an ex copper. I
was, I was, I was warned, don't sell on what you did for a job mate, they'll
throw you over the edge of the boat on night ship. So I had to, I had to go in
undercover with a covert name.

At a covert background

Rosie Skene:

just to
get a job. That's incredible. Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:
yeah, so it's all kind of yeah I didn't make the best choices with jobs But I
think when you're you know when you're struggling with everything else up in
your head And you're trying to get off drugs, and you know I wasn't drinking it
was weird I didn't drink on drugs.

I drink now. I'm a big drinker now. I probably a closet. I'm
probably a functioning alcoholic now But, yeah, I, uh, I got myself off all
that shit. Yeah, it took a while. It took, it's, uh, it's, um, it wasn't
actually as hard as I thought. I, I, I thought actually, it's harder to get off
cigarettes than to use off drugs.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:
yeah. Um, so, I sort of cleaned up about, I think that 2006, 2007, you know,
just gave it all. I had more to, I had more to offer, life, I thought, and I
thought, it holds you back, that shit. It's like anything, you know, if you
drink too much, or if you gamble too much, all that stuff would either hurt you
financially or it just holds you back because you're not thinking straight.

Just so clouded. Yeah, everything's cloudy and yeah, you talk
to people who've been big drinkers and give up alcohol. I reckon it's the best
thing that ever happened to them. And it's just a whole different, I go dry up
in New Guinea, I don't drink up there in the mines, and I might do five, six
weeks clean, off the ground.

And it's very, yeah, it's very enlightening.

Rosie Skene:

What are
you doing up there in New Guinea in the mines? Is it safety? Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:

I'm a safety guy. Yeah, so yeah, I, um, I'd worked up in New Guinea before and, um,
I, uh, I've been up there now three years and I really enjoy the company. It's
a great culture. We've built a culture up there.

We have, it didn't happen overnight and, uh, great people. I'm
working with an ex copper. He's my back to back. Um, He's AFP, but so he's only
a bit of a plastic, you know, he'll listen to this. No worry. , that is
awesome. And we've got great managers, great supervisors. And look, the people
we've got a diverse grew up there, Rosie.

We have like probably 80 percent of the workforce is national,
, 15 percent is probably Filipino, but we have two groups of Turkish up there,
Portuguese, Dominican Republicans. So you've got all these different cultures.
You kind of got to navigate around with safety and make, cause then they all
have a different aspect to it.

Yeah.

But it's really good.
You know, I mean, I, I think I'm, I'm moving to Indonesia next month. Okay.
Yeah, I'm building a house over there.

So we're going to retire in, uh, in Bali. So, uh, Flo's pretty
stoked about that. She's a local girl over there and her family's over there
and, , I love the place. Yeah. Thanks. And, , we thought, you know, she's doing
law over there. So yeah, there's a lot, it's quite exciting. That'd be the ass
end of my life.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I was about to ask, you know, what's going to be next for you, but that sounds so
you still, and you still do your work from in PNG from there.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah. Yeah. Do that. I've got a couple more good years left in me. I'm, I feel
pretty good for 64.

Yeah.

You know, um, I feel like I've got a bit of unleft unfinished
business in my own personal self in terms of my development.

So I don't think you never really stopped that. Yeah. You know,
and people say, are you going to finish work, Andy, when you're finishing the
mines? And I'm probably not getting a coffee shop up there or something just to
get purpose. You need purpose. One thing I learned about all that stuff, Rosie,
all that stuff of sitting around late at night full of drugs, pondering life
and looking, watching the sun come up.

There's no purpose in that. You get too deep, you think too
much, and that's when you get in trouble.

Rosie Skene:

I agree
with you. The times that I've had my worst and I've been in the darkest holes
is when I've had a purpose to work towards.

Andy MacFarlane:
Yeah, and it's hard getting out of bed to get to that purpose some day.

Some days you just, I mean, I've cancelled many, I think a lot
of people who've struggled with say depression, which is a by product of the
PTS any listeners and yourself included. I mean, I've probably missed a few
opportunities by just cancelling that meeting and not going to it or not
getting up at a bit on time and just saying, sorry, mate, can't make it.

Cause you're dealing with shit. You're dealing with the devil,
you know? So, um. It's an ongoing project, isn't it? It is,

Rosie Skene:

it is.
Before we wrap up, because I know you've got to go, um, what, do you have any
advice for people that might be in that shit, that, you know, the really
sticky, dark places? Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:
phone a friend.

I mean, that's the hardest thing to do. I mean, it's easy to go
and find a bloke like I said, anonymous guy at the pub and pour your heart out.
And that, maybe go and do that.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane:
Because someone will at least see you. You need to be visible. It's when
you're, when you're hiding, is when all the trickery and chicanery starts
popping into your head about what you possibly might do to yourself or
whatever.

I was pretty lucky with that stuff. I more, I was more just
bedridden. Yeah. with the black dog than actually thinking about suicide. But
if you, if any listeners out there are really struggling, you need people
around you, either it's best mate or, or you know what? I said this a few times
and this works.

I've done it many a time. Pack your bag and fuck off. Jump in
your car if you're capable Coffs Harbour and lay up on the beach up there in
Middle Beach. Absolutely. Get it, get a cheap Bali flight and go and hang in a
little villa for 30 bucks a night, get a chafee with a swim pool. And, you
know, you might meet someone nice at this stuff.

Another thing I used to notice too, this is kind of more of a
man girl thing, like how do I meet someone nice? I'm sick of meeting idiots at
3am in the pub type thing. And it probably works with people struggling with
mental issues too. If you find an activity that you really, if you say you like
something, and I did this Through that dark time, I used to, I got back into
climbing, only because I'd lose that much weight.

I was in a real good climbing size, and I was strong still
because I was training heaps. So I joined the Sydney Climbers Club, and uh, and
it was great because I got back into doing what I wanted. And they had
expeditions, like at the Blue Mountains, or down the coast, or down to Victoria
and the Rapalese.

And there were some bloody nice women in there, too, that were
climbing. So, but I wasn't meeting someone at three and I'm blind. I was
meeting a fit woman, sharp of mind, loved doing what I like doing. Ended up
dating one of them for a while because she had a similar interest. So, you
know, definitely an activity.

An activity will try and get you out of it, but, yeah, , ,
nowadays I don't take any medications, , except alcohol. Uh, I, I, I tend to
find that I just ride the black dog out now, Rosie, I'm pretty good at that,
and I realize that it's going to take maybe a few hours, , and that'll be fine,
I'll lay in bed for a while, or I might, might get up and just chill on the
lounge and read a book, and it goes, it passes, and it, it tends to be passing
quicker nowadays.

They're not as long as, uh, you know, Thing, Session. Yeah, I
think,

Rosie Skene:

because
you're aware that you're going to come out of it again, too. I think that's
where the walking struggle is. I think

Andy MacFarlane:

that terrible thing when you don't think you're ever going to get out, it's a
terrible place to be, isn't it? Yeah. And it takes a lot of courage to fight
that demon and, um, You know, sadly, we're still losing people and, , people
that you think, like, oh, I lost a mate, you know, he wasn't a mate, but I
worked with him and he's a really good guy in the military police, and he was
well respected, and he drank himself to death last week, and he was a guy who'd
been a military policeman, he'd been a parachute regiment guy, served in Timor,
Yeah, I run big criminal investigation matters in the army where I met him in
the cops joined up, joined operations and I'd met him in Bali a few weeks ago
and he was, he was smashing the grog.

Um, and then I, you know, post on Facebook's in each memorials
next week and I was just with him last week and that's happened to me a couple
of times where you've just been with someone. I find that pretty spooky too,
you know, because, you know, I've never been with a woman that's suicided. But
it's always blokes, so I'm only kind of looking at it from a bloke's point of
view, from a bloke at another bloke, you know, we do do.

And I just found that they were so secretive,, I mean, it can
roll off a few suicides out on the job and no one sees it coming and when you
dive into their life, I mean, they looked at those blokes, because they're your
mates, and this thing, you know, that for the coroner's inquest, they delved
right into their lives and could find very little that would warrant that
extreme act.

in their life. And, you know, they weren't womanizing, they
didn't have a drug problem, they weren't gambling, they didn't have debt,
nothing. You just wonder what's going on in there, don't you?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,

Andy MacFarlane:
it'll always be that mystery.

Rosie Skene:

I think that's why it's so important to be kind. Because you just, you don't, you don't
know what other people are going through.

Andy MacFarlane:
Definitely. And I, I still, I even working up the mines, you know, be talking
to the locals and they're wonderful people up there. They just put in every day
in their work, you know, no doll up there, Rosie, everyone's got to work and no
sit down money up there. Um, and they got a smile on their face and they go
back to a village, we go back to an air conditioned room.

The poor, some of them go back to a village and they're trying
to sleep or not, you know, after a big day on the mine and the dogs are
barking, the chooks are underneath the floor and they got malaria and I, and
you just realise how lucky am I.

Rosie Skene:

Mm hmm.

Andy MacFarlane:

You know, like, I, I, I can, yeah, just, I never lose sight of how lucky I've been
in life really, even with that stuff.

Yeah.

You know, I, I've been able to resurrect myself and I've been,
I guess, really lucky to be given opportunities after the COPS. I hid all that
stuff too from employers in the early days because it was, you know, it was
career limiting if you put anything like that on paper.

Rosie Skene:
Absolutely. But now,

Andy MacFarlane:

I think, even though, you know, they don't mind you talking about it because
you're a good example for people of.

How to, how to survive and what sort of resilience you need to
get over that stuff. There is life after another job or after divorce or after
PTS you know, there's life. And so, , you could turn it into a massive
positive.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
agree. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. You whizzed
through it so quick.

I know there's so much more to it, but I really appreciate you
coming on.

Andy MacFarlane:

No worries at all, Rosie. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Rosie Skene:

I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me
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Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.