Rosie Skene:

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and
hope. I'm Rosie Skene, a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical
Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a
medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of
navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph Beyond Trauma has got
your back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life
starts right here.

Matt, welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma. I'm really excited to
have you here after finding you on LinkedIn and what you're doing in the mental
health space.

I think it's really exciting. I was wondering if you could tell
us a bit about yourself and your journey, Timber Therapy and what it inspired
you, , to combine wood work and counselling.

Matt Lewin:

Yeah. So,
um, growing up in a family. Where, you know, your dad's a tradesman, his dad's
a tradesman, and so you're just destined to become a tradesman, even though
you're not sure about it, um, and yeah, so just kind of going down that that
pathway of, uh, when I left school, I went and did the trade thing, and
interestingly enough, you know, listening to your podcast as well and hearing
some stories, um, I was talking to my parents, you know, across the last 12
months about their background as well.

And, um, and it turns out that, yeah, they've actually got kind
of their own traumatic history to some degree as well, but they really shielded
us kids from that. So we didn't really know the full extent of the story. Um,
like my dad lost both his parents by the time he was 18. Um, and then my mum,
her. Mum was engaged to a soldier that died in World War II, and so she got
married quite late.

And then my grandfather, he got put in an orphanage by his dad
and told that his mum had died and then was basically taken from New Zealand to
Australia without telling the orphanage that he was going to be taken. And then
he finds out that his mum's not actually dead. And that His dad just put a, you
know, institution.

So then that impacted on my mom's upbringing, , to the point
where she left Sydney back in the day. She's old, obviously, and, , and she
came up here before, , you had phones and all that. So she kind of knew someone
and she came up here and just drove up here by herself when she was like, 22 or
something.

And that just blows my mind to know that, you know, they've had
no real, , People to help raise us, but they did so well. And, , and so when
they're like, well, you're going to have to do a trade. You're going to have to
earn. It's like, well, yeah, I, I guess I do. And there's no, like, you know,
it's the old school thing.

You only get a grade 8 or whatever. And you don't go beyond
that. So they're like, you know, you just earn. Money, you don't go and learn
more stuff. You don't even need to go to TAFE something. You just have to go
and and work. And so my brother did a carpentry apprenticeship just before I
did. And, and I thought, well, I can't do that now because I don't want to be
like him.

Uh, so I started doing landscape and. Because I thought I'd be
all right. I'll be outside. I'll get the tan. Oh, you know, it'll be cool. And,
, and it wasn't. It was just really hard work, which, which is great. Like, I
love, I love working hard now. I appreciate it because it helped shape my mind.
But after a little bit of workplace stuff where the employer was using us
because we were cheap, , I tried to get trained correctly and I went to the
Department of Education and Training who then called them and their way of
trying to discipline me for that in house was to put me with like the grumpiest
tradesmen that they had.

And, , and we turned up to this job site and it was just me and
yeah, I was pretty sheltered sort of kid. And, and then so I turn up and this
guy. I've heard all the stories. He's old. He's grumpy. He hates young people
because they don't know what they're doing. He's got high standards and some
songs for playing on the radio.

And I was like, I can play that. You know, I've played in bands
and stuff. He's like, no way. It's like, if you can learn that song tomorrow
and come back and play that lead line. you know, we'll, we'll be best mates.
And so I went home and learned it and came back and played it. And then from
then I've, like, to this day, I still talk to him.

I talked to him last week. And, , that was 18 years ago. And,
uh, and it's like this whole thing of trying to, turn the screws on me turned
out to be like the best thing. Cause he mentored me and helped me learn a
skill, but also said to me, Matt, , I can tell you don't love this work.

We're doing a big site. So it's all a commercial landscape and
we're doing a big site, , set out for a job. And the boys used to love that
because you don't have to be on the tools. You're just shooting heights. You're
reading the plan. You make sure it's all set out correctly. So it's not hard
work. You just got to use your brain.

And I had the plan, you know, spread it on the front of the
ute. And I was falling asleep in the sun and they're like, Matty. You really
should reconsider what you want to do with your life. And, uh, so I lit, and
they also said, you know, you're going to get a crook neck and a crook back
because we're doing like stone work and bricklaying and concrete slabs, like
all that, all that stuff.

Um, which. I actually enjoy doing, but at the time I was like,
I just don't see the point in it. And, uh, so I went overseas for six months,
um, with a mob called YWAM. And so we're in Toronto for three months doing some
homeless support stuff there. We went to Japan where we did some, uh, tsunami
relief stuff.

So this was back in 2011, 2012. Yeah. Um, and, uh, And then we
went to Thailand and there's some, uh, human trafficking sort of awareness
around that stuff that goes on there in Southeast Asia as well. So then going
back to Toronto, hung out in the States for a while with some people and then
came home. And then I went to go back into the trade thing.

I just couldn't do it. Hey, um, after seeing, well, first off
seeing the world, cause I was no longer like you become a tradesman cause your
dad's a tradesman. And that opened up, you know, the, my eyes to see what. You
can actually do in the world and the social work aspect of, you know, the, you
know, everyone on the, uh, justice component of it kind of came out and I was
like, I think I, I need to do this stuff.

So, coming from a non OP background up here in Queensland, um,
doing like, I play guitar most of the time at school. I did, uh, work
experience one day a week. So I was only out of school, you know, four days a
week playing guitar. Most of that just relaxing. Um, I didn't even know I could
do university. And then finally, I, uh, I enrolled.

I got in. I actually did really well, um, because I didn't know
at the time that a man's brain doesn't develop fully, if ever, but, uh, until
about 25, it's like when, you know, all this smart stuff in the front of your
head grows, um, and I actually learned that I can actually read books really
well and write.

Stuff, you know, and I was like, Oh, well, I'm, I'm, I'm good
at this. And then that created that, that wheel of like, actually I'm, I'm
good. And then I see the result, which kind of reinforces that I'm actually
okay. And that propelled me forwards. Um, And then after university, I, yeah,
went to work for child safety as most social workers kind of do, um, did that
for a while.

Then I went and worked for an organization funded by child
safety to prevent kids coming into care and working with families to prevent
that space. Uh, and then. I was made redundant, uh, at Christmas time, which is
my little coffee cup here. Here's to my redundancy and, , which is great
because it reminds me of how actually how good that was.

It gave me the push and then I'd been doing this woodwork and
social work stuff, um, for, um, Probably 3 years kind of in roles that I was
doing. Um, I, I led teams as well and when I could get out there, I'd
incorporate this woodwork and so social work stuff. And I saw some really good
results from kids. I thought now's the time to take that step with that
redundancy payout.

Um, and then that's how I came here at Timber Therapy. Um,
that's a really long version of how I got here.

Rosie Skene:

It's so cool though, um, to go. You know, and get all your skills together and then put
them into something that you can use that's a little bit different as well.

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, I often get that feedback that there's no one else out there doing quite this.

And again, if I didn't do the trade, I couldn't possibly do
this. Yeah. And like, you know, when I was looking at university kind of in
that first year of my trade, it's like everything I was going to do was really
just about me. Like, I want to learn to play, you know, more in bands or do
this art stuff or whatever.

. But I would have never really succeeded at it. So like the
journey that led me here is like all part of that story and you can't change
one part and still get the same result. Yeah. , Yeah. And then it's a kind of a
unique thing that I'm, I'm doing to some degree. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. So
What does it involve, the timber therapy, and who do you work with?

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, so
I work, um, with mainly men. Um, that's kind of my, my thing, based on some
stuff around research that I've done. And, uh, the youngest client I've, I've,
I've had is about from, from ages 10, um, up to, you know, whatever age you
want to go to. Uh, so what I do in that space. It varies, hey, depending on,
like, that client.

Um, and so there's no, , absolute set pathway that we have to
do. Some people come in, um, I was doing some woodwork with a young guy. We're
just trying to do some joints. Um, and, you know, all the fine cuts and making
sure they're all clean joints. So they're nice. And it's like the mindfulness
component of that was really good for him because he could just sit there and
we talked about, like, whatever you're thinking about outside of the space
right here, it doesn't impact on what you're doing here.

Like you've got to close that out because we can't actually
change what's outside of like what's in front of us right now. So that kind of
mindfulness component and he got a lot out of that. And then, um, just working
with another young fella, um, we'll just make him some toys, like some little
wooden cars with him.

And just the fact that he made something, it's like, actually,
I have the capacity to impact the world around me Create what I want to create.
It's not like the world is happening to me.

I'm actually enacting my own, , agency on the world around me.
And I was like, so what works with the door. I don't necessarily do a big
intake form and like, have to work at whatever what's going on because I think
it naturally unfolds, I guess, through my experience that I've got in the past
in that naturally unfolds pretty quickly within that 1st time we meet and then
we kind of develop a plan on, you know, what we'll do.

Okay. So that's kind of like individuals that come in. I also
work with a few groups, uh, with young guys who are on the wrong side of the
law, which they come in and, and if we said, we're just going to do counselling
and sit down and talk like they'd be absolutely zero buy in. Yeah, we come in
and we make some large projects as well, like some really nice stuff.

Um, so I, I also use really nice wood as well. I don't just use
scraps because it's like. They're important enough that I would use good stuff.
So I've got good tools. I've got good wood as well. Um, so then the end product
that they get is actually a really nice thing that then also anchors. What we
talked about, like, when they look at it, um, and so, yeah, through the,
through the program that I run for these young guys, they'll come in, they'll
do the work and we're talking about stuff and they'll just bring up whatever's
going on in their life and then we can apply, you know, a new lens on how to
look at that or a new process of how to think through those processes so that
when, when, when they leave, the youth worker is in the car with them and they'll,
You know, I've, I've had times where I've had a call and they're like, man, they
talked about all this stuff that was going on and how you, you know, help
reframe it and put it in a new light for them.

And, and they're going to change blah, you know, blah, blah,
blah in their life. And I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, like, I know I had
that chat,

but look
on their faces. Like, yeah, sure. And then it's like, I'm spooling. Yeah. Um,
and I just love it. Um. And then I also do some EAP, um, subcontracting stuff.
So again, you get a, you get a, a referral come in and it says the most, you
know, generic thing and then you start talking and there's like so much going
on and, and you get to roll to it as well.

So, it's not all woodwork and it's not all counselling.
Sometimes it's exclusively both and sometimes it's together as well. So, um,
yeah, it's that mindfulness component. It's the. idea as well with young guys,
I find like the trade background literally redirected my life, , and sent me
on, on, on a course.

Um, so learning those hand skills, um, knowing that our, you
know, men's brains are still, you know, growing when we leave school to get
towards the end of school, or even if they've dropped out of school, it's like,
Oh, I've now got a skill that I can actually build on as well. So it's like
that skill building for young guys then translates into life.

Skills, not just, um, I've got a really good tool in my head of
how to reframe stuff. When I get yelled at from, you know, whatever it's multi
faceted in that, um, approach. I guess there's no one set course we must go
down and get some, you get some things that are left field as well. That really
helped me.

Yeah. Like I love to push into that stuff and go, Oh, that's
exciting. So there's no run of the mill day. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

I love
that. It's so yeah. Multifaceted, like you said, like so many different layers
of what you're doing is really interesting. Like I really like cooking. So I,
um, before I joined the police, I was a chef and I found that after I left the
police.

When I was moving through my PTSD, I started baking a lot more,
and I find that similar to what you're saying with the woodwork and the
mindfulness, because you're only focused on that one thing that you're doing at
the time, and it helps so much in processing your thoughts. I guess if you've
got a counsellor standing beside you while you're doing it, um, how amazing.

Matt Lewin:

And a lot
of the comments I'll get is like, Oh yeah, my granddad used to do woodwork and
I used to be in his shed or I used to be in dad's shed. And like that
experience predates usually like the traumatic experience that most people have
been through. So it's like, Oh, actually, I've had a really good time in my
past.

And if I've experienced joy there, I can actually bring that
into where I am now. It's not like there's a roadblock of, you know, all bad,
because, you know, it's that whole confirmation bias that we go through, right?
And it's like, look around the room, can you see all the white things? And then
tell me about the red thing that you see.

It's like, oh, I wasn't trying to look for that, right? So, you
know, so with the, um, with the woodwork components, like, oh, my God, My
granddad used to do woodwork. The amount of stories I hear like my granddad,
my, uh, my dad, my brother, whatever, and it's like, and they talk about that
really good experience they had, so we can tap into that and bring that into
the now and it helps.

Yeah, that's well.

Rosie Skene:

With
that too, like thinking about, , the grandparents doing it and then, , my
parents a little bit with the woodwork and just working with the hands in
general, I guess we're losing those skills because everything's so accessible
to us now and you can just, you know, Buy a new thing, right?

Like we're, back then they used to have to fix things to be
able to use them again. And so we've lost those skills. So that's really nice
for people as well to not only, , remember spending time with their
grandparents in the shed, but, but learning the skills that are life skills. .

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, for sure.

And that's, yeah, I think, you know, that on the head as well,
it's like, there's almost no point to make stuff by hand because the cost of
materials is actually more expensive than a product that you can buy from the
shops. And then, you know, If you're not that talented, you usually waste it,
but you don't get a good as good or outcome or you spend, you know, half a year
trying to build a small desk and you go, well, that was, but three times as
expensive as

Rosie Skene:

well.

Matt Lewin:

That's
right. You go, why? Um, so yeah, it's, it's great. Cause, uh, one of the things
we make are like these little boxes, um, and I don't have a hinge for the lid.
I kind of make people work at how they're gonna do the hinge and, and the
amount like. The variation in people's ideas of how they can hinge a lid it,
like, it really blows my mind.

I had this one young kid work out this kind of pin system. So
the lid could, you know, pop up and down and it just blew my mind. I was like,
I could have never thought of that. And it's like the creativity that he had in
that moment to come up with this solution. And then we started talking about,
like, the solutions that will actually come up.

For the problem in your own life, like, I'm not here to solve
that for you because I don't, I can't possibly know all your experiences that,
you know, um, put a lens over what you're experiencing today. But through this
process, you found a solution to a problem in your life, which means regardless
of what you go through, you can actually do that in the future as well when you
walk out the door and you're faced with.

Whatever it is, because you've got that skill. You just showed
me you have that skill. So you're not like a helpless being that's floating
through life going, I don't know what to do. It's like, you just proved to me
that you do, which is really great. And the kids light up as well. And, and the
young men that I work with.

So, um, yeah, it's all again, weaving that thread through. What
we do, it's not like an explicit thing, but it naturally comes out through the
process, um, which I find is great again for young men who he said, let's go
talk about your problems. It's not going to happen,

Rosie Skene:

and it's
so empowering, right? Like you literally, literally giving them the tools.

To make things, but then giving them the skills and tools to
move through their life and, and work out what they're going to do next,
especially if they've come from somewhere, you know, with the law, um, and
they've had that experience, they might not see the other side. So

Matt Lewin:

that's
right. Yeah. And, and, and again, it's that thing that's like, as much as we're
using physical tools to do a job, you know, we can learn tools for our
thoughts.

Um, Yeah, see, I often talk about, like, with our thought
processes, um, if you've been on a farm, you know, the cows always walk down
that same track into the yards and then back again and there's a rut there and,
you know, the, I've got a, I've got a mate, he's, uh, he's been a great grazier
for his whole life and, you know, his dad's farm and his dad's farm sort of
thing.

And you, you turn up to the house. Yeah. And you see those
tracks and they've been there for like a hundred plus years. Right. And we talk
about that with our mind. Um, and it's like, so the tools that we've got here,
we don't use the one tool for all the things we use new tools. And we, and we
have to learn the skills to actually use those tools as well.

And so when we do like a physical demonstration of tools that
we use and then say, you know, the way you might be approaching the thing you
just talked about, You could use this tool in your mind to reframe it, or to,
to work your way around it, or if it's a breathing technique, or it's, you
know, all, all that mindfulness stuff, it's like, ah, and then they, they see
an actual connection, because as a bloke, when I was young, you could talk
about abstract stuff, and I'm just in la la land, hey, like, I've got no idea.

What's going on? But you put a concrete example of that, of
like, how to apply a tool to a job and then connect that to a mental process.
It's like, oh, like, I see little light bulbs turn on and I'm like, and
sometimes they turn on for me, like I'm connecting dots as much as they are.

Rosie Skene:

That's
so good. So, like, like I said, my parents had a little bit of woodwork.

My mum loves getting on the tools, actually, so I've had a
little tiny bit of experience with it, , but not much. Do people need to have
any experience to come and do , what you do and participate in your programs?

Matt Lewin:

No, no experience required. Um, I've got a really nice place you can sit as well if
you just want to chat.

Uh, I'm often amazed that like you'll have someone come in and
they've got like no woodwork experience, which actually, again, this is one of
those things that blew my mind because I just assumed everybody had a shed full
of tools and that their dad was handy. Um, Until I was asked to fix, um, a lawn
mower for somebody and I said, Oh, where's, where's, where's the shed or the
toolbox.

And it was a plastic toolbox with a piece of sandpaper and a
screwdriver. And I went, Oh, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. And it's like
that realization that nobody has all these skills, but, um, see these young
guys, or even these older guys come in and we're just, you know, Like, have
you, the process to learn how to use a saw, um, it's like, I, I was taught that
at school, you know, keep your arm in line and like, you're not trying to flap
your arm around while you cut.

It's all about, you know, posture and stuff as well. And so I'm
almost doing a woodworking class while we're doing some, some brain stuff. So,
yeah, there's, there's absolutely no need to do it. And kids pick it up
particularly quickly. Um, I'm really surprised. Cause again, I'm just
constantly like. Yeah. I'm amazed at how quick the human spirit can, like, pick
stuff up or heal or change or move forwards.

And again, I tie that back in. It's like, you came here with no
skills and you've left with a nice little wood box or a toy or something, um,
which just goes to show that change can occur really quick, quickly. We don't
have to do, you know, years of thinking. It's therapeutic work. It's like,
we've got proof that you can learn a physical skill.

You can also learn a new way to think and they can do that, you
know, in one hour with me. So, um, yeah, you don't need a skill, um, to come
along. You can just turn up and we can just get into it.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
It's so cool. Um, I know that obviously it's the first responder and veteran
podcast and I know that.

These people, like our people, um, struggle with talk therapy
sometimes, , and, you know, probably more so men, I don't think it's a big
secret that men don't love having a chat as much as women do, um, and their
backgrounds and the nature of their traumas. A bit different as well. , how can
timber therapy help overcome those obstacles?

Matt Lewin:

I think
back to, , an analogy or just a proof that somebody showed me. It's like when
women usually catch up, it's like, they'll have, you know, coffee and they'll
sit across and talk and stuff. Like, I'm being very basic here. and then, you
know, Like men will kind of, some will go to the pub and they stand side by
side.

And so it's that confrontational thing, like, you know, men get
in your face. That's not like a thing that we usually do and talk. And so I've
found that the nature of talk therapy, when you're kind of sitting on the couch
across from somebody and they're talking to you, it's, it's confrontational to
some degree, you know, based on, I know, a thousand years of men going out.

To fight wars and hunt or whatever, and like, yeah, while
society is rap rapidly grown in the last, you know, 100 years, it's like, , we
haven't kept up. , and so I think with the woodwork component, I'm never
sitting across from somebody while we're doing it. , I'll be beside them or I'm
even like casually talking.

So I think like, as, as an old dog, I just need this tool or
I'll say, oh, there's, there's a tool and I've got a toolbox behind me that
I'll go and I'll grab it. And as I'm talking, as we're doing it, so it's like
that more. , like the way my dad talked to me when I was in his shed when I was
a kid, it's like, oh, go, go grab us that thing.

And then we're talking while we're doing it. So, it's kind of
bypassing those defence things in our brain just by having an environment that
allows for it. Um, like, while the walls in here are white, um, Which I was
like, I don't want white walls till I feel like I'm going to a GP or something.
Like, the size of this room is huge.

You're not in a tiny shoe box. Um, we've got lots of room. So,
I think the nature of the talk therapy idea, you come into this place and most
people for the first time go, Oh, it's quite, quite large up here. , and so it
just puts that at ease. And then I'm not sitting down. Across, you know, face
to face with them.

It's always beside. And if they do want to talk on the couches,
again, it's still beside them. Um, and there's lots of, you know, you can look
at it and see stuff. So you're not again trapped in a small room, which doesn't
help. Um. You know, there's fear of feelings of I'm trapped in here with
someone that wants to talk about how I feel.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Matt Lewin:

So I
think there's a little bypass in there. Um, on how that works. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
like that side by side thing. , I know how you say you've got a really big
space, but I remember some of the best conversations I've had with my parents
is when I've been sitting side by side in the car, you know, when they're
driving and they, yeah.

And my dad was actually really good at it, and I didn't realize
until I was much older, um, that he would use that, you can't get away, but he
would use that just being side by side and not having to look at each other
because it's so non confrontational, and I do it actually now with my own
children, you know, if I've got something I want to have a chat to them about,
we'll just go for a little bit of a longer drive than normal, um, but you're
right, it really puts them at ease, doesn't it?

Matt Lewin:

That's like a, that car thing is a tool I picked up when I was doing a lot of youth
work and, and with young guys, you just hop in the car, go down the shops or
whatever, and they'll unload everything that went on. And then you get back and
then they're like closed again and you go, and we talked about some depth
there,

And you know, it's all seeds. You know, they're, you plant
seeds and they grow, um, and you don't know how they grow and you don't know
when they'll grow, but you put the seed in there and uh, and yeah, you just
see. That, that car thing, it's the side by side. It's always side by side. Um,
yeah. And it's, and it's not here because I'm not trying to lead.

I'm not the expert, right? In, in your life. , so I can't stand
in front of you and say, come towards me. I've got all the answers. It's like,
I'll journey with you. And if you need a handout across the speed bump or this,
this block on the road, we'll, we'll get over it and we'll move forwards. And
we're doing it side by side.

Which is like, A mate ship thing, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
You're not alone. I love that. I love that so much. So how, how have you seen
that creating some like a tangible object has helped, , during therapy to
contribute to healing? Have you seen that with people?

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, um,
probably a good story.

This is kind of before chemotherapy was like a formal thing. I
was working with this young guy and he had, yeah, quite a traumatic background.
He was, he was born, uh, overseas and, lived with his grandparents and dad, ,
took him to Australia , and all through little share houses and stuff and then
dad got remarried, , to an Australian person and then had, had 4 kids with, And
then he got left with her and , dad just left.

So he's like, you know, someone from the overseas that looks
different to his siblings. And then, , he's not even there with his dad. He's
being raised by someone that's not his mom. And, and then, , COVID came in, it
was all crazy. Right? And, , and things were getting really bad for him. Like
just the behaviour that was come coming out was this, his, his way to cope.

Um, with like the craziest story, like there's so much to it.
And, . And so we started doing some woodwork and we just made these little,
just a small block of wood that saw, you could almost like make a little
necklacing out of it. And we'd just like carve shapes and stuff in it. And we
started to talk about like, , where the wood came from and about, , all the
different sort of trees, , some trees produce great wood for a bridge and some
trees produce great wood, you know, to build a house , or like there's, there's
all , different things.

That's great. uses for trees and some create shade. And then it
was probably like three times after I met with him, he sat down. He goes, Oh,
Matt, you know, I feel like I'm a tree that was planted somewhere else and I
was ripped up by my roots. And, and then I was put down here in Australia. And
while I'm not a tree.

From here, I can still provide shade to my, to my siblings and
protect them and I was just like, this is a kid that was just making stuff as
we'll go and didn't say boo to me for about, you know, the, the, the first
three times we met, just like the basic, yeah, school's good. Yeah, life's
good. My lunch was good.

And then he comes out with this big grand thing and I was like,
that was probably my first proof of concept. I was like, ah, there's good stuff
here. And, and just seeing like that changed in his mind from , being someone
that was like my sib, like from what I'm getting back from mum was about how
the relationship with his , siblings was not good and relationship with mum's
not good.

And there's DV and stuff going on in the home as well. Like dad
would come back in and, , once a week to show him who's boss and the thing. So,
, he's got all that stuff going on, but yet here he is saying, I can be a tree
that protects those around me and create shade. , and I was like, it works.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Wow.

Matt Lewin:

Um, and
so that's like 1, 1 of those big grand things where you see that outcome, but
seeing kids come in and this 3 again, it's, it's not the woodwork that creates
the healing. It's like being able to talk to them while they're doing it and
then hearing things like, , relationships with like moms, like a lot of that.

Um, yeah, the young guys, , struggle, you know, they'll just
live at home with just their mum. And when they get frustrated, they take it
out on mum. , and seeing that, like, we talked about the relationships between
, woodwork and, and, you know, the glues and stuff that we use. And then they
relay that to the relationship they have with their mum.

So, yeah, I, I, I see the healing process through the woodwork
, and the stuff we talk about. Yeah, which is. It occurs quite quick. There's
not like a long build up of , we have to meet for six months and talk about all
the stuff from your past. It's like that future focused component of what we
are doing that we overlay onto their current experiences to then help them move
forwards and heal in those small bits that they You know, , keen to address.

Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. I just love it so much. Like, I just love how you're using a hands
on approach with a therapy. Like, I think it's so fantastic. , so you did say
that you did some group work, um, with juvenile. Is it just juveniles?

Matt Lewin:

Yeah.
Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Do you
do other groups as well?

Matt Lewin:

I'm
starting like a mindfulness group next year, um, which is like a woodwork mind,
mindfulness thing.

Um, and yeah, so that will be, there'll kind of be like 3 sort
of projects you can pick from and, , it'll be capped to kind of like a class of
4 or 5 just based on space. , and. Again, it's kind of what I talked about
earlier where it's like we're just here, we are doing the thing, and if we can,
you know, focus on one thing at a time, then we can focus on one thing, on a at
a time when we're out in the world and the, and the chaos is around us, right?

We can detach from, you know, being in that trench warfare sort
of thing and we can step back and see the big picture and then go, oh, this is
what I need to prioritize and, and go after. Um, so it's kinda like a skill
building mindfulness. Thing as well. Um, and again, you get to learn some
skills that you might be able to share or, or take through it and that pride in
actually making something.

So, yeah, so the mindfulness class next year, , is what I'm
going to start. And that will be, you know, you can just book it and come along
that most likely be on like a Thursday night, which is like a easy thing to do.
Um, and then, yeah, so that's kind of the only real group work I do. Most of
the time it's an organization sending along.

A group of young people or, or whatnot to actually, , do a
program. So, um, but I'll open that up to, yeah, those who live around here.
Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

And
I'll, I'll link to everything in the show notes, but, because you are in
Stafford in Brisbane, which is quite close to the base in Enoggera, right? So,
, you would work with, any defence guys or girls that wanted to come.

Do you work with women?

Matt Lewin:

Uh, I do
through like the EAP side of, of stuff. Um, and I engage with a lot of mums
with their sons as well. Oh, good. So, yeah, , and that's probably like the
social work component. I, I fully understand that like, The stuff people are
going through, it's just not in their head, like the environment that they work
and live in also impacts on it.

So if they've got somebody in their life that that is like a
big support or or needs, you know, they want to have a tough conversation with
them. They can come in and bring that person and we can both talk or, Or if,
with their consent, I can call them up and talk to them as well, because I
understand we don't exist, , as just one person.

It's like, , we're part of a larger thing. So, , yeah, so I
work with, with, yeah, everyone.

Rosie Skene:

That's
so cool. , Got a question about. Like men's mental health and how it's been
pretty taboo up until fairly recently, um, and the stigma that's attached to
that and just the help seeking, like the stigma that's attached to help seeking
in general for a lot of people, but still, especially men.

How has timber therapy and that approach helped to normalize
seeking help really for any mental health problems or even just talking about
it?

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, I
think, um, I think being a bloke who's got the trade background helps in that
regard. It's like, oh, this is like a normal person that I've seen on a job
site.

Um, and like relaying, you know, I've been, you know, knee deep
in a concrete slab before and the sun's going off like a bomb sort of thing.
It's like, I get, you know, the physical hardness of work and you get home and
you're actually exhausted and, , So engaging with men, like I, I get the lived
experience of being a man.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Matt Lewin:

and that.
And I think the, uh, you know, 'cause predominantly fields where we help, you
know, um, mostly females work in those fields. Yeah. And, that's fine. 'cause
most of the time men wanna work with things and women wanna work with
PE-people. And, and, and that's fine. And so I think being that small.

Um, that's in the field. I think just being me of who I am
helps break that stigma as well. Um, that it's, it's all right to go and get
help. Um, and I'm probably more on the masculine end of the scale as well of
those men that work in this field. Um, so when I, when I talk to men, I often
talk about, , when my car breaks down, when I was young, I used to work on it
because I thought I had to because again, my dad worked on his cars.

That's because we're actually just broke, , and we had to, and
so it's like. Well, I'll service my car before it breaks down. So sometimes
like getting mental support, it's just a tune up. I'm not trying to replace the
block or pull off the heads and, you know, put new stuff on. , it's actually,
we just making sure that all those bolts are tight and the, the wheels aren't
going to fall off when you're going down the highway.

, I've been in a car that's done that and it's not fun. So it's
like, let's physically prepare. Our minds so that when we go into some hard
stuff, , we've got the, again, the tools to do it and we've maintained our
mental health to ensure that we're the best for not just for ourselves, but
those around us because we can't to come from a position of weakness to some
degree.

Um. Isn't great for those around us as well. Like, we can't be
trying, you know, second guessing ourselves when times get tough when like, and
it's fine. If you do, I'm not saying like, these are all hard, hard rules, but
if we maintain our well being in our mind and our health as well, um, Yeah,
we're actually going to be really good.

So those conversations come out of that sort of stuff. Um, but
it's like you paint your house as well. You don't let the paint peel off and
the wood rot and then replace all the boards and then repaint it. It's like you
just every 10 years, but maybe see a mental health professional more than every
10 years.

But you just paint your house and the job's done, right? And
you go, how good does that look? It increases the value of your house, which is
like your capacity, even if we're looking at return on investment sort of thing
for people that care about, oh, it costs how much to see you, which. You know,
it's, it's not that much over the long term, but the return on that investment
is actually you becoming the best version of you, um, rather than living for 10
years, you know, in like a rundown house, so to speak, and then overhauling it
because it's gone, it's gone to crap.

Um, let's maintain, let's be the best. Um, yeah, so. Again,
those conversations are shaped around that basic everyday life stuff that we
do. Why don't we do it for ourselves? Yeah,

Rosie Skene:

I love
that analogy so much because I'm a massive believer in, you know, any sort of
preventative staff or, and then maintenance as well.

I just think it's so fantastic. And like you said, you know,
why wait till your house falls apart and there's no paint left until you have
to do like this massive overhaul. It just takes so much longer and it's much,
much more difficult to address any problems that you had. Whereas if you did
it, you know.

five, five years ago. Um, you, you don't have to probably do it
as much and it's a bit quicker and you get better results and you learn the
skills to maintain it. Um, yeah, you bang on the money with that. I love it.

Matt Lewin:

It's a
bit like what you were saying, like you, you, you were a chef before this and
like, I've got, you know, all these nice knives at home and I'm trying to cut
my food up, whatever.

And then. It's then my bro in-law came around with this knife,
sharpen the thing, and I thought I was doing an all right job on the steel and
whatnot.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, .

Matt Lewin:

And then
he's, he makes this thing sharp and I'm like, struggling for like, I dunno,
two, three years with these crappy knives. This I thought were pretty good.

And then he's just taken it up that notch. I'm like, now I know
what the standard is. If I could function at that all the time with my knives,
which reminds me I should give him a call after this. Yeah, . Um, it's like,
that's, that's the idea, right? Like the sharper the knife, the faster it goes.
Blunt. So it's like if you are.

If you're like, yeah, super, super sharp, let's just hone that
edge, you know, and catch up. It's not, we're not trying to say stuff you've
been doing is wrong because you've actually lived life this far and you've,
you've survived. Let's just, you know, hone those, those edges off. Um, And we
can move forwards.

Um, and sorry, I'm not trying to, like, labour on the point. Um,
but I was talking about to somebody, to a mentor of mine. And we're talking
about, like, the things that we love the most, we, we hold the most. And it's
like, so the sharp edges on those things that we have actually just wear off
across time. Um, it's like, uh, I'm just trying to think, like the, the, the
tools that I use the most, they actually start to fit my hand because the wood
actually starts to lose some of those sharp edges and like, um, the guitars
that I play, like where my arm rests on it actually starts to like, get more
shiny there because I've, I've kind of buffed the paint with my, with my
forearm.

And I'll say like with the neck as well, you buy a new one,
it's, they're kind of sticky and you, and then you start the play and wears in
and your hands move quickly.

And it's like the things that you love the most or use the most
wearing, it's like the patina that you get on it. It's like, when you look at
my old cars, where my forearm rest as well on, on, on the car door, it's all
worn in. It's like, but so the things that we love the most or use the most, we
have to maintain more as well.

So like you're somebody that's interacting with all these
people. So if you maintain yourself, well, you actually, yeah. You stay, you
stay sharp, but you're also nice to be around because you're, you're like this
warm, well rounded person that everybody loves. You're not gonna, you know,
there's, there's not a sharp, but that sticks out and hurts them.

No, I mean, every now and then, because of something that's
going on, you've learned to be this beautiful, warm thing that everyone wants
to be around and be part of their life. Um, so that's kind of, again, one of
those things that I think. Um, help me and go, that's, that's true. I've got my
favourite camp chair that fits me and I've got my favourite stuff that I use.

So, you know, it, cause it's worn into you. So let's make sure
those things don't wear out.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. Gee, you're good with your analogies. I love that.

Matt Lewin:

Yeah.
Yeah. Some people can go on a bit. I

Rosie Skene:

like it.
Um, I've only got two more questions. Um, what's been the most rewarding or
transformative moments? I know you shared one before, um, like that you've
experienced or any stories that you can share that highlights the impact of
Timber Therapy.

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, um, I was recently working with somebody and the discussion we had, it was pretty
wide ranging. I was talking about theory stuff and social work background.
We're doing woodwork while we're doing it. And I started drawing them. I've got
a whiteboard. I love the whiteboard stuff out. And so we can see what we're
talking about as well.

And, , the diagrams that I draw are kind of interesting. Break
down a lot of stuff into, like, how the brain grows, like, from the brain stem
up and how we function and how the brain's, you know, use dependent as well.
And so we'll talk about all this really abstract stuff. Um, and then I, I got
to this point where it's like, about the relationship he had with his mom and
how with the relationship, you got, like, 2 people on each side and the
relationships up the top or like yourself is down below and each choice you
make, you can either.

It's like, um, so all
relationships, it's like you're either building up the relationship with each
choice that you make or you're being selfish, which somewhat takes away from
the relationship.

And obviously there's a lot of, it's not a blanket rule for
every choice. 'cause some people have unhealthy, uh, re relationships, but. For
this one context, it, it fit quite well. So we're talking about how, um, like
if you and I went out for a meal, , and there's one bite left, and I could just
take that because I, I want that one bite, right?

And that would be like a selfish choice to some degree because
I, I didn't ask. And I could say, Rosie, , would you like the last bite? And
you go, actually. Yeah, I'm starving. I would, even if I'm starving. It's like,
but I'm making a choice that you go, Oh, Matt actually cares about me that he
would ask me for such a small thing, right?

That if I would like it, but then. If you're not hungry, you
might say, , no, it's fine. You can have it. But you still think Matt cares
enough for me that he would ask me to do it. And it's like such a small little
choice that you can make. And it's the same as like, he's playing Xbox at home.

I'm just like, get off there and come and help me. And it's
like, you can at least communicate, like, you know, mom, I've got one more
thing to go. And you're at least communicating to her, like, I want this, I
prioritise the relationship above the stuff in our life. Because all the stuff
we can replace, but the relationships we have with those who we love, we can't
replace.

And then, and so like, when we were talking about that, , I
drew like a really basic diagram for him, which he, I saw him as I turned
around, he took out his phone and took a shot of it. And I was like, he gets
it. And, uh, and so I think that's one of those moments where I was like, I've
earned the respect for him to listen to me by showing him practical skills for
him to be like, this is like a, a manly man.

It's not some guy who's trying to be fluffy and airy fairy. Um,
he's, I've got some skills. I've built the trust with him. There's rapport
there that he'll allow me to talk into like one component of his life. Um, and.
Yeah, and so I, we, we saw a good outcome in the relationship that he had with
his mum, and it was like, how good is that?

Um, and that was like, I worked with him for a few weeks, and
it was very, you know, Again, it's like, what's going on? Like, the hood's
down. You can't see their eyes. They're just doing stuff. They're just here
because somewhat, they have to be here, but then you build that trust and they
go, oh, I actually kind of want to be here and I enjoy it.

So, and then that moment of change, like, change occurs
straight away, right? Um, but it's just the lead up that takes all that time.
And then you made that choice that this is what I'm going to do. Um. And yeah,
I heard some really good feedback from the youth workers as well that worked
with him. I'm like, so that's a really good outcome.

Um, I worked with another guy who was becoming a parent and
just like the balance of his work. So, like, he's working like pretty full on,
uh, a government employee in a department and, and stuff. Yeah, what's going
on? It's like, we reframed some of this stuff around like. Home isn't a place
you go to recharge from work.

Work is a place that you go to maintain your home. So creating
home is like a sacred space. It's like really just, Turn that light in his
mind. It's like, actually, , yeah, , I'm not this slave that goes to work and I
need a place to recharge. It's like, actually, I go to work to maintain my
family home and to be the best version of me at home.

And we talked about, , the scarcity of resource. It's like, you
know, you've only got so much. Time you've only got so much, you know, material
resource, and you only got so much human resource and you can't just drain out
of them all the time. , you've got to kind of pick and the, , stewardship you
need to show or develop will help you live this fuller life.

And, , and so that was like, you know, a few months ago and
then he came back and we had another thing. I guess, like, the, the way in
which, , Like just one small chat helped reframe so much in his life. He's
like, I've got more space to think. , it's like my in tray I can finally see
the basis of my in tray

and it's like, how good is that? It's like, I just loved it. ,
and then we're talking about, yeah, some more stuff about some real basic
things. Like when you're driving home from work, what's an actual landmark you
can pick that you turn off from work and say, I won't think of work past this.
Thing and for me, when I was doing the child protection stuff, there's a bridge
and it's like, I'm not going to think of all the risk assessments, the, you
know, all the stuff we've got to do to ensure that if stuff goes, , balls up
that I'm not going to get grilled and go before, , child death review and all
that stuff.

It's like, it's like, I've done all the work I can do. This is
the spot where I stop and I think of home and all the things I'm going to do at
home and all the stuff I love. So that when I come back to work, I'm actually
Yeah, again, I am recharged, but work is like a place that supports that, so
just changing and reframing with this, with this guy in a pretty full on role,
actually, yeah, I saw great outcomes, and that was, we just met twice, and
that's probably all, all that was, you know, required of him.

To really help. And again, I'm not someone that's like, oh, you
should come back next week. Like, I think if value is to be found, , in your
investment of your time and cash. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have those chats, but it's
like, I think the value that we provide in the work we do here is, is quick
enough.

It's not, , it's not this drawn out process where, and, and to
be honest, it's like, if it takes years to get support, sure. Like that, That
really works for some, but, a lot of the men that I see come through the door,
first off, they don't want to be here, and they just, they can't even justify
it to some degree, but then they leave on that first time and go, this was
value to me.

And then, you know, coming back a few times, it's like, they're
really putting into practice the things we talk about. So, it's a future
focused thing, not a thing in the past, because I can't change the past, but I
can help you get a roadmap and move forwards. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Um, This
isn't on my list, but I can see how you absolutely, like, light up when you
talk about the results, um, that people are getting from what you're doing with
them.

How has it impacted your own life doing this kind of work?

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, so,
like, nothing that I do at work, I don't do at home, like, I, like, I'll, I'll,
I'm always reading stuff and I've got, like, books and notebooks and
highlighters and, and again, coming from a kid that didn't read at school, um,
and so, like, I see this stuff and I go, how can this work for me,
understanding, again, that everyone's got their own lived experience and, you
know, we're all, we're super complex, . And so like seeing those results, um,
and like, so you read all this stuff and you talk to someone about it and then
it goes again, it's that loop stuff we talked about.

It's like, um, I go, all that wasn't in vain. I didn't read all
those books listen to all those podcasts, read all that research. Stuff and for
no reason, it's like, I, again, I'm investing in me so I can invest in those
who come to me because again, I want to provide the best value that I can for
everyone that walks through the door because again, I grew in a fit, grew up in
a family that was broke.

So understand any, any, you know, buck that you spend to see
someone you want results like you really want it. So like. I, when I hear those
feedback, I'm like, I'm on the right track. I'm on the right track. Um, and I,
I've got some really good mentors and like, they're not in this field, they're
outside of this field.

And they often talk about like that saw-tooth growth you know,
it's up and one week it's like, man, I saw, you know. Yesterday, I had clients
back to back and like, I nailed it, um, like the times were perfect. It all
went really smooth. I was like, I'm a professional and it's like that sawtooth
growth. But then sometimes it's like, oh, the rest of the week's looking bleak
and it's like, oh, damn, it's up and down.

It's like, and so if I'm going through that stuff, I know other
people are going through it. But then when I see those results, it's like, it's
almost like I can see the sawtooth growth while it's going up and down. It's
just, it's going up and down. Up and down, not up and down.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Matt Lewin:

Yeah, so
I just, I just love seeing those results.

Um, and it's never draining. Um, like it. It's like a puzzle,
right? It's like, how can I, like, what are the pieces I'm missing or what are
the pieces that might be stuck beneath the couch and the questions that I
provide help them just look and go there. That's the thing I needed. Um, so
it's not that I have all the answers.

It's actually just that I've got some questions and some tools
that help people, you know, find that direction in life because. I, like my
mentors, sometimes I get frustrated because I'm like, just tell me the answer.
Like you've been, you've been to the top of the, of the, of the hill and surely
you've talked to the wise old man or I thought you were the wise old man, but
they just keep leading me in the direction that I need to go.

And I'm, and I look back and it's that reflection part of what
I do as well with people. It's like, look how far we've come. And it's like,

man, you've come so far. And again, it's like that I'm the voc-ed student who was, I still remember grade. 12 English that were teaching us
how to write a CV because they thought we'd have no chance.

And it's like, look how far I've come. And like, that just
propels me forward. So I think if I can provide that for the, you know, the
people that I work with, with the men that I work with, all the, all the young
kids that are going through absolute hell, that look how far you've come. We
can just keep moving forwards and society wins.

They win, society wins, like everybody wins. Um, and yeah.
It's, yeah, it's not easy. Like, you've got to do hard work that, you know, to
do it every day, to put the tools in the practice. It's really hard work, but
again, that reflection component of the work that I do as well. It's like, that
recharges them. Like, this is a reflection component.

It's recharging me. , I could run to a brick wall, , but yeah,
so it's changed my life in that regard, , of like the absolute belief that
whatever you put your mind to, regardless of how hard it is, regardless of,
like, yeah. The stuff you've gone through, you can actually move forwards
because the future, you know, you can get people that journey beside you in
that whole mateship thing.

And you can go forwards. , You don't have to be stuck where you
are.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. So true. Yeah, I can see like you can tell when people are really
passionate and have absolutely found their thing that they should be doing in
their life because it just light up when you talk about it. I can definitely
see that with you.

It's really beautiful, actually.

Matt Lewin:

Thank
you.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. .
So my last question is, what do you hope someone will take away from the
conversation that we've had today in relation, , to like, about mental health
and creativity and connection.

Matt Lewin:

Connection. Um, I'll probably start with the last one, , connection. , there's
just a research paper that came out that talked about, you know, the loneliness
with men, which, which we know, , is pretty common. I think it's, I, I, I, I
won't say the stat because I think I'll be wrong and someone will correct us in
the show notes or whatever.

But, you know, there's quite a high percentage of men who don't
say they have a best friend. Um, and so with building connection, I think it's
really important. And, , like where I live, , I often, talk to all the guys
around. I think building connection for myself where I live is a key thing as
well.

It's like, I'm big and brave. And you say to somebody, Oh, just
go talk to the bloke across the road. And they're like, Oh, I don't think I
don't need to do that. It's like, come on. , I'll push myself to connect with
those around me. But then observing those around me. I'd often don't see cars
pull up or them have mates around or whatever.

And it's like, Oh, this, this connection thing's real. Like men
in Australia are actually going through this isolation crisis. You might say
where they're not connected with those around them. , and so I think
developing. , The ability and the skills to connect, even if it's that basic
stuff, like, Oh, how's the footy?

How's the weather? It's a bit hot. Hey, mate. It's like, then
you build on that foundation. Um, and so. Like some of the, people to even like
connect with their boss. It's like, if you've got a safe environment where you
can talk to a boss and they're not going to, you know, manipulate you, you
know, it's like connect with your boss and just say, I've got this stuff going
on. Um, can you, you know, support me in whatever that is, whether that's,
you're not going to get them to stand up in front and talk because they hate
that or, you know, whatever.

Whatever the process is, or there might be a particular case or
thing you don't like doing. Um, so yeah, encouraging connection is quite a
large thing that I do. And then even part of the group work component as well,
connecting people within those groups, because all those young people don't
know each other.

So that's probably, yeah. What I would hope people take away is
like, just, um, just go kind of next door to start with and say hi to somebody.
Or when you, when you get fuel, actually just have a chat to the person, you
know, behind the desk that you're paying. It's like, just connect in small
spots and just feel like, actually, they didn't reject me.

Like, they did have that chat and so again, it's those loops.
It's like, you have an experience. You reflect and say, they didn't reject me
because I said a dumb thing, or I made a joke that they didn't laugh at. They
kind of went, yeah, right mate. And I'll try it again. And they'll post like a
good feedback loop.

Um, say that that's kind of how I encourage connection in those
basic things. Or find a community that you like. Try and do it in person. Start
online if that's your, your, Where you feel good, but try and do it in person,
because I think that's really key thing for us.

creativity, I often think about people consume more than they
create.

Like, we're always on the scroll, we're just consuming,
consuming, consuming. Um, and I think creativity unlocks your potential of what
you could do. Um, people that come in with no skills before they come in here,
while they're coming to, you know, for stuff going on inside their head, they
start using their hands and go, Oh, I can actually.

Create stuff, which again is, you can actually change the world
around you. Like, you made something that didn't even exist before. And now, if
you can do that in a fit, you know, in with your hands, like, just think of the
things you could change in your life. Um, so yeah, creativity is that route and
you don't have to even force it.

Like, Like, you can't force art, right? Um, I've played in
bands and stuff, like, you can't, you just got, you got to feel it, right? And
I know men don't talk about feelings, like, I'm hungry and I'm angry and horny
is probably the three feelings that men have, right? And it's like, no, no, you
actually, there's more, there's more out there, there's a lot more than that.

And like, and so. One of the things I've learned is, like,
emotional intelligence isn't that you're like, oh, I'm all touchy feely, but
it's actually, if you can interpret those signals that you get from people
around you, you're actually a better performer, like, you can actually do your
job better, you can connect better, you can actually do that stuff.

So being creative, it's like, if you can just. Let that stuff
that you feel come out and while you create something, whether that's you're
developing a new hinge thing that I've never seen before or, um, we carve
spoons as well here, you know, you just do a new shape or you're just doing
what, what, what not.

Um, I think that creative component of you creating something
that didn't exist in the world shows that you can move the world around you and
move it in the direction that you want it to go. Um, and then I think, yeah,
connection, creativity, along with all the other stuff improves mental health.
And I think the key thing that I would go back to what we talked about is that
it's like servicing your car or painting your house, or, you know, if you've
got a boat, you flush it out when you get back so it won't rust, um, Yeah, it's
like mental health is about maintaining what you have when you go to talk to
somebody like a mental health professional.

It's not about overhauling, like it might be, but generally if
we keep on top of our mental health, um, yeah, we can, we can. Again, be the
best version of ourselves, for ourselves, for our kids, for our mates, for our
colleagues at work. And so then, when you know you're your best, you also don't
feel like you're bringing the team down, which is a big component of mental
health as well.

Um, and so And then if you do need an overhaul as well, there's
so many avenues out there that actually wanting to help you and there's no
judgment upon you. Like, I've actually never judged a person that's walked
through my door. I'll get young guys come in. They're like, Oh, you think this
is really dorky, but I actually like game and, you know, cause I think.

I'm this masculine person who, you know, lifts weights and eats
meat, which I am, um, but, but, uh, yeah, and so we talk about that. So there's
no judgment in going to a mental health professional who is a professional. Um,
I think there's a lot of bro science out there, which I think is, it's a good
gateway into self improvement sort of stuff.

Um, but I think, yeah, some of the more evidence based,
research based tools, um, means that we can replicate You know, using a tool in
our life that will actually get a result. It won't be hit and miss as much. Um,
so I think, yeah, that component of mental health for men who are looking to
access it, particularly for men.

Um, it's that, yeah, there's no judgment around it and when you
perform well. Everybody wins. You win. Your team wins. Um, there's no downside
to it. And the invest, you get a return on the investment that you make as
well. So if you're worried about finances, potentially, um, when you perform
well at work, you might get , promoted.

So the return on investment of seeing me once or twice is
actually a win. Yes. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah. I
think, , Yeah, you're so right, like that investment into yourself can pay some
massive dividends and when you're learning skills like the ones that you're
teaching in relation to mental health, like, and timber therapy, like, all of
it are skills that you can have for life.

So, yeah, make the investment.

Matt Lewin:
Absolutely. I, um, yeah, just before we wrap up, I was thinking, I, for
Movember, I did this deadlift thing where I did two and a half thousand reps at
the average Australian weight class. Man's weight, , across November, which is
the volume is quite high on that, right? And, , and yeah, and then I missed a
few days.

I had to do extra on some days as well. , and a lot of people
like, Hey, how will you do that? Isn't that's going to be, that's, that's too
much. That's a lot. And, , and it was like, you still have one rep at a time
and, , it's on Instagram. If you want to go watch me lift weights, which is
really boring.

It's literally just me. Lifting, but the whole point is it's
like, I did it one rep at a time. So when you go and talk to somebody, you
might have a mountain in front of you, but it's one step at a time and then you
get to the top and you'll be like, thank goodness that I did it because I'm
looking around and there's an awesome view up here that I couldn't see when I
was in the, you know, in, in the bush , down at the base of it where there's
all the mud and the crap.

Um, so yeah, just one rep at a time, keep going forwards and
talk to someone that can. Be a mate beside you to help you go forwards, who has
some sort of professional background, usually helps as well, so you're not
getting dangerous advice, which I know some people think, how could you talk
and get some bad advice, but yeah, I've, I've heard some interesting.

Rosie Skene:

There's
some, yeah, there's some interesting people out there, but I'm going to leave
it at that because I think that was amazing advice. Just take one step, just do
that one little thing to, to put you in that forward moving direction. Right.

Matt Lewin:

That's
right. Yeah. Be on the front foot. Don't be on the back foot.

Rosie Skene:

Awesome.
Thanks so much for your time today, Matt. It's been amazing. I really have
enjoyed it. And I really love, , what you're doing with timber therapy. I think
it's great. I mean, we've heard of art therapy, , and this is just another
different type , of that, which is great.

Oh, thanks again for coming on. It's been great. All

Matt Lewin:

good. No worries. And, uh, if anyone does wanna talk to me, there's a website, , timber
therapy.com au. , you can actually, my phone number's on there, you can
actually call me directly if you want to, or you can shoot me an email and just
book a time for me to call you.

And if you just wanna book straight away, there's a little link
up the top you can book now. , and that's probably about it. , if you're on
Instagram, you can find me as well. , timber therapy a is the handle and. Yeah,
I'd love to connect with anyone that wants to connect. It's all good.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Awesome.

I'll link to everything in the show notes as well. So people
can just find it straight away after they finish listening to this episode.

Matt Lewin:
Brilliant. Thanks for your time. And I really appreciate what you do. , I've
had a listen to a few podcasts and I think what you're doing is great. , for
everyone out there that, you know, he's on the front line doing that hard work,
which we don't often, , hear the respect for.

So I take my hat off to all, all those who are out there doing,
doing the hard yards. Thank you.

Rosie Skene:

I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you
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Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene. Join me
again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond
Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your
consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you
think. Have the best week.