Rosie Skene:

Hello
everybody and welcome to episode 44 of Triumph Beyond Trauma. I am Rosie Skene
and I'm so thrilled that you could be here to listen to this EMDR special
episode. I hope that you've had a happy Easter if you celebrated it over the
weekend. I know I ate way too many Easter eggs and I spent most of today
helping one of the kids look for eggs that I actually ate last night, so that
was fun.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But seriously, I hope that you have
enjoyed the break and did some things that were good for you. Michelle Anderson
is today's special guest, and I'm so thrilled to have her on to talk about
everything. EMDR Michelle Anderson is a former New South Wales ambulance
paramedic turned trauma therapist after 21 years of service.

Michelle left the ambulance in 2011 following her own
experience with PTSD. Since then, she's retrained as an accredited mental
health social worker and has spent over a decade supporting others as a trauma
therapist. Based in Bateman's Bay on the New South Wales, south Coast, Michelle
specializes in eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing therapy.

EMDR. Therapy, an evidence-based treatment recommended by the
World Health Organization for PTSD, anxiety and depression. She's also trained
in advanced EMDR protocol designed for people who've experienced prolonged or
repeated trauma, making it especially effective for first responders. Michelle
now offers five day intensive EMDR programs for New South Wales emergency
service workers with A-P-T-S-D diagnosis.

Therapy, travel and accommodation costs can often be covered by
workers' compensation. With her lived experience as a first responder, Michelle
brings deep understanding and empathy to her work and finds it incredibly
rewarding to support others on their healing journey. I loved having this chat
with Michelle and I feel like I've learned so much and I hope that you guys do
too.

So let's get stuck in. I.

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores
journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher
and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mom to
three beautiful kids and a medically retired New South Wales police officer
with PTSD. I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first
responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've
confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness
and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together we'll
uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter, more
fulfilling life.

Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or
just a friendly reminder that you're not alone. Triumph on trauma has got your
back. You matter and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life starts
right here.

Michelle, welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma.

I'm so glad to have you here.

Michelle Anderson:

Thank you, Rosie. It's great to be here.

Rosie Skene:

,so you
were a New South Wales ambulance paramedic? Yeah. For 21 years? 21 years, yep.
Do you want to tell us how that came about and your experience within New South
Wales Ambulance?

Michelle Anderson:

Yes.

Sure, sure. Um, so I started in 1989, so a long time ago.

I feel very old saying that. Um, so I had, um, when I left
school, I did a few jobs and, uh, I was actually working, um, in Sydney at what
was called the Futures Exchange, which is sort of like the stock market, but
even riskier. And, , you know, I, I just sort of thought this is not, This is
not me. I'm not all that interested in the money side of things.

So I was looking at either nursing or joining the ambulance
service and nursing had just gone to university based training as opposed to,
you know, they used to train nurses in the hospital setting. Um, so I thought,
you know what, I don't really want to do a uni course. Um, so I applied for the
ambulance service and, um, and got in.

So that was, yeah, 1989. , and stayed until. 2011. So, and
then, yeah, left because of PTSD. , but, so I started after my initial
training, which was in Sydney at Roselle. My first posting was, uh, at Drummoyne
station. , and I, so that was as a probationer. So I did that for a year and
then, , finished my, what was then called level two training.

, all the, all the, All the terms have changed now, I'm sure. ,
but yeah, so I, I did my, I finished my preparation and then my first, , uh,
posting after that was to St. Ives in, , in Sydney still. Um, it was also
called St. Elsewhere, , was the nickname, because we used to get sent all over
Sydney. Uh, because not much happened in St.

Ives. So we got, we, we got sent here, there and everywhere.
So, , Mainly did just general duties and I did a bit of work on the, , the
rescue truck, when I was at St Ives. Then I went to the Central Coast because I
was commuting from the Central Coast. I've got a, a transfer up to Ettalong,
which is where I grew up, good old Ettalong.

Worked there for a while and, and Point Clare and then got a
transfer to Hawkesbury River Station, which is, , was, it's on the, The
freeway, it was called the F3, then it's called something else now, but it's
basically in Hawkesbury River, , at Brooklyn. Uh, so I was there for probably
about six years, , and so most of the work there was, you know, as you can
imagine, was, , motor vehicle accidents, trauma, trauma, yeah, yeah.

Um, it was sort of a, a bit of a joke, well, not a joke, not
funny, but you know, you know the humor, you know the dark humor. Yeah, yeah.
Yes. , it was like, you'd sit there. , at the station and it'll be like, it'll
start to rain and you'd watch your, your watch and go, yeah, give it 20
minutes, 20 minutes and the phone would be ringing and yeah, there'd be
accidents.

, so stayed there, , until 2000 and in 2000 there was a. Big or
1989, , 1999. It must have been like a big review of rural areas within the New
South Wales ambulance station. And so there were quite a few positions, , being
advertised in rural areas. So, , , by that stage, I'd met my husband, we worked
together at Hawkesbury, , station, and we decided we wanted to go rural and we
looked at.

The stations that were on offer and, um, the South Coast
appealed. So we, um, applied and moved down to the South Coast in, in 2000. Um,
so a big, uh, a big change from working in the city where, you know, you sort
of go home from work in the city and you're. Totally anonymous to your
neighbors, you know, like, and, and when in the shops and stuff like that, no
one knows who you are, but you come to a rural area and all of a sudden
everyone knows what you had for dinner last night.

If you went to the local Chinese or, you know, where your kids
go to school and all that sort of thing. So that was a little bit of a culture
shock.

Rosie Skene:

It's
pretty confronting, right? , yeah. Um, yes, there's a little bit of pressure
associated with that too.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember my first day at Ulladulla Ambulance
Station and um, my new, you know, my new partner, you know, introduced
ourselves and, and, and I was actually the first female to be stationed there.

They'd only ever had, you know, had, had males there at that
stage. And, , he said to me, Oh, so, , your kids are going to Milton Public.
And I'm like, , yeah. Yeah, I don't think it happens, you know that. Oh, and
you had Chinese for dinner last night. And I'm like, oh. What have I done? This
feels, yeah, feels really weird.

But , you just get used to it. And there's heaps of positives.
Like, , to being, you know, known in the, in the local area. I mean, now that ,
the local area is much bigger, , since, especially since COVID, it's , much
more populated and, you know, you can go to the shops without having to factor
in an extra half an hour.

for chats Yeah, yeah, yeah. , so basically, , I, yeah, I was
there for 11 years. , I, I developed PTSD, as is very common, and I also had a
back injury, so I had to have surgery on my spine, so I had a bit of , a double
whammy there, , and, , ambulance service wasn't overly, uh, supportive,
surprise, surprise, , yeah, so anyway, I ended up resigning, , I didn't get
medically retired though, yeah.

So, um, I just, I resigned, , in 2011. , I did, I had, , a
really supportive, , GP , who was amazing. He used to be a paramedic. He was a
trained driver, then a paramedic, then a, , then a GP. So , he was really
supportive, which was great. Um, uh, had a good psychologist. , I did have, um,
an inpatient admission, which was, you know.

I don't recommend it. If you can avoid it, wasn't, wasn't
great. Um, um, and yeah, so that was 2011 and I was, um,

you know what it's like , PTSD, it's , it's like the, you know,
the, the carpet's pulled out from underneath you. You and your identity is so
much around your job. Um, yeah. That it was a couple of years of, you know,
really not, not knowing which way was up and, yeah. Uh, wasn't a nice time. Um,

Rosie Skene:

I think
to, um, sorry to interrupt, but

Michelle Anderson:

no,

Rosie Skene:

again,
being in a small community though, , and then having that identity and then not
having that identity anymore, but people sort of, um, people always question it
as well.

Like, why, why aren't you an AMBO anymore? Why aren't you a cop
anymore? You know, so you don't have that anonymity to just to leave a job
without having people ask questions. And that adds to that pressure as well.
And, , back in 2011, I mean, I left in 2019 and I know that the stigma related
to mental health back then wasn't great.

So going back another eight years before that, I can imagine
that would have been a tough time for you.

Michelle Anderson:

It
was, it was. And also a sentence, you know, PTSD, it's about, you know, You
feel really bad about yourself, you know, you feel like you're a failure. Um,
and so then, you know, you go places and people, you know, people either don't
know, so they assume you're still in the ambulance.

I was still, you know, because we used to do on call and my
husband was still in the job. So we'd get Co ord ringing even and like the
coordination center and if I answer the phone, they're like, oh, Michelle, ,
can you do a call out and I'm like, and then I'd have to say, uh, actually, uh,
no, you know, and feel, yeah, so much shame.

Every time

Rosie Skene:

feeling
it as well. I'm sure every time you say no. Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, it was, it was really hard. ,
and I think, um, you know, you don't. They don't tell you much, , and hopefully
that's changed in terms of, you know, since, since I've left, like, there's not
a lot of, , information and, , like, just being told, , what to look out for, ,
so that you can do the preventative stuff, , it was more, no, let's not.

Let's not tell them anything and so hopefully they won't
realize that like that frog in the water that's, you know, where the
temperature is is slowly turning up. Um, and it's really only since I've left ,
and done, , lots of study, I'm like, um, yeah, it was really. a matter of time.

And not, not to say that , everyone's going to get PTSD. Of
course, , that's not the case. Um, but, um, I don't know why I was so
surprised.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah. Isn't it funny looking back and you're like, of course that was going to
happen. Like to me, it's, I felt the same, , It was a time bomb, really,
because I had no knowledge of, one, how to prevent it, or the effects that the
jobs were having on me.

And then, so if I didn't know that, then I'm not addressing it
in the moment to prevent it. So it's like this whole vicious cycle, of course
it's going to blow up at some point for me. That's how I felt.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, , it was really interesting when I went to, , one
of the, , Uh, insurance, , psychiatrists, , where you think, Oh, I'm just going
to, , he's just going to grill me here and, you know, you get made out to all
your, you feel like you're, , a malingerer and all the rest of it.

And, , he was just so great. He was like, okay, you've been in
21 years. Okay. , just tell me a couple of the worst jobs and then that's,
that's all I need to know because you're done, you know, I'm thinking, Oh. You
know, that was so sort of validating rather than feeling , people think you, ,
I don't know, making it up or, or whatever.

Um, so, and actually even recently, , a client now that, , came
to me, um, his psychiatrist, um, sent me a letter and, and, , actually said,
uh, something along the lines of he, the psychiatrist has yet to meet, meet a
first responder, um, with More than five years service, , who doesn't have
PTSD?

, now, I mean, he's, he's got a biased, you know, cohort of
people, you know? Yeah. He's very . Yeah, of course. But, , , the, the
psychologist I saw, , when I was going through it all was like, yeah. 10 years
max, , and, um, yeah. Yeah. But as I said, that's not for everything.

Everyone, , there's lots, lots of variables. . That, that, ,
impact whether you're going to, whether you're going to experience PTSD or not.
But, , but yeah, yeah, most of the, most of my learning about it all was, ,
once I left and once I, , so I was actually going to do, um, psychology. I was
going to retrain and do psychology.

And my psychologist, um, said, Recommended social work instead,
which I was sort of quite surprised about. Um, and so that's what I did. I, I,
um, I retrained. I wasn't sure, um, if I'd be able to do it because my
concentration, as you know, with PTSD, your concentration's like,

Rosie Skene:

you
know,

Michelle Anderson:

dory. , and so I started really slowly.

I just did one unit at uni. Just to see if I could actually sit
there and think and, and take things in and, , and it was actually, that I
think for me was a bit of a turning point because again, , when you're in
emergency service, there's that , sort of cultural thing that you're only good
for, for that job.

And if you can't do that job anymore, you don't have any
transferable skills, which is just so not true, . Um, so. It was, yeah, I had
that, , that sense of failure and that sense of, well, I'm not, what am I going
to be able to do now? What am I good for? Um, and so once I, uh, started
studying, it was like, oh, I'm really enjoying this.

Um, and then, , one of, like, I had to go to , residential
school and one of the lecturers was just talking, , just having a chat in a
break one time , and she was like, oh, you'd have heaps of transferable skills.
I still remember this and I was thinking, oh, really? I , , sort like, yeah.

Can you please write a list? ? Yeah. Yeah. . . So anyway, I
did, , I did the social work degree. , and then I, um, started working in
mental health services because that's where I was drawn to. Like, I just, , it
resonated with me. It resonated with me. Way back, , as a 20 year old, when I
first joined the ambulance service, , the mental health type of jobs that I
went to, I was like, yeah, I, I, um, I like these jobs, , they're not for
everyone and some, sometimes, , colleagues get frustrated , with patients and
stuff.

But I was like, yeah, no, I, um, I really like this sort of
work. So, uh, yeah, so I went back to, , went back to New South Wales health,
but obviously, yeah, a different branch with, , like first it was inpatient
mental health, and then I went to community mental health services and worked
at a few different, I worked in, , domestic family violence, sexual assault,
um, child protection and counselling, basically trauma related, um, services.

And, , how was that? It was great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, , , it
was really good. , and I think it was good to actually have, , a period of
quite a few years of, , doing, working with clients outside of emergency
services stuff, you know. Um, because I think if I went in too early, I
wouldn't have been ready for that.

Yeah, so I, I did that and then I ended up, , that was almost
like 30 years with health altogether when I think of the, you know, 21 years
with ambulance and then back to , um, community health. New South Wales
Community Health Services that I was like, you know, I think I want to, I feel
a bit institutionalized.

I want to sort of step out, away from that. , and then I
started working for Fortum, which I don't know if, um, Have you heard of
Fortum? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I worked in , the clinical services,, sector of
Fortum and so that was with all first responders, you know, police, fire,
ambulance, SES, border force, , um, AFP, you name it.

And, , and I really just loved it. It was all telehealth. , so
I, , I did that for, , just a bit over a year and then I was like, you know
what, I, I, um, while I like telehealth, , I was just craving for, to get back
to some face to face. Um, and that's when I sort of left and set up private
practice.

Rosie Skene:

That's
so interesting. , how was it working again with first responders, , in a
different capacity, obviously? How did you find out? Was it like sort of coming
home to your friends again or did you have like a period of struggle or how?
No,

Michelle Anderson:

no. It was, it was sort of like, cause I wasn't sure whether it'd be like, oh,
is this going to trigger stuff in me?

Um, but it wasn't like that at all. It was, and. And it was
really interesting, that, that first, you know, that initial, , appointment
that you have with someone and, , I'd say, Oh, you know, I, yeah, I, I, I was a
paramedic. Not in a, , big note myself way, it was more like, , that's just my
background.

And you could see people just sort of relax and go, oh, okay, I
get it. Yeah, you

Rosie Skene:

can drop
all those little insecurities that you might have because so many people don't
get it, right? Yeah. That service related trauma. So to have someone, you're
like, that's a whole thing I don't have to explain. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Michelle Anderson:

And you could actually see sometimes people go, sometimes people would go, Oh,
okay. And you could see, or they'd say, Oh, you get it. Or you just see, like,
their body language, they, they just , their shoulders that sort of relax a
bit. They go, Oh, yeah. All right. Um, So, yeah, so I really, I really liked
it.

I, just to backtrack, when I was still with health, I did, , I
did training in EMDR. , Up till then, that was when I was with the Domestic
Family Violence and Sexual Assault Service, because health was a little bit,
um, like EMDR has been around since the, like, late 1980s. So it's been, , it's
been around for a long time, but it was a little bit, , uh, people were
cautious about it, if there was any sort of legal.

Um, legal matter happening because what EMDR does, sort of, ,
it desensitizes, it makes memories less vivid. So if someone's going through
like a court case, of course their solicitors want them to be able to remember
stuff.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
Yeah,

Michelle Anderson:

yeah, yeah. So, so with health and things like, , sexual assault, um, they
really didn't want you to be doing that sort of therapy until the legal stuff
was out of the way.

And that was like, so, um. Yeah, , but health was , getting
more accustomed to, , accepting that as a form of treatment and , it's only,
there are like three evidence based treatments for PTSD, EMDR being one of
them. So, I trained in. I trained in, cognitive processing therapy, which is, ,
one of the other evidence based treatments.

Uh, I didn't train in prolonged exposure, which is the third, ,
type of, , treatment that's evidence based for PTSD. , I just didn't like the
idea of prolonged exposure is a lot of talking about the different traumas. ,
so you're desensitizing by talking about it. And I wasn't drawn to that, , it's
like, oh, that sounds much too painful to me.

Um, But what I like about EMDR is that, , it's less of a talk
therapy. Yes, , there's, there is some talking obviously, but it's really
about, , activating a memory and then going straight into the desensitizing. So
there's not a lot of talking, , about the trauma. Before we go any further, can

Rosie Skene:

we just,
, maybe start at the start of EMDR?

What does EMDR stand for? , for people that have absolutely no
idea about it, can you just explain that a little bit?

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's, it's a mouthful. It stands for eye movement
desensitization and reprocessing. So it was developed in the late 80s. I think
it was 1987 and it was a psychologist in America, Dr.

Francine Shapiro. So she was a psychologist and a researcher
and she was walking in a park in America. She was thinking about something that
was disturbing to her. I don't think it was ever actually identified. I don't
think she actually said what it was, , but she was walking through this park
and she was, , Thinking about something that was disturbing to her in memory.

Um, and she was also looking around as she was walking. And
after that, when she next thought about whatever it is she had been thinking
about on that walk, she noticed the memory wasn't as, , vivid or disturbing
anymore. And being a psychologist and a researcher, she was sort of like,
what's that about?

Was that just coincidence or what was going on? So she started
doing, , doing research into it. And, , and. found that, , eye movements or
other forms of what they call bilateral stimulation, so it doesn't have to be
just eye movements now. She actually said, um, she's passed away now, but, um,
she, in the meantime between, , 87 and, before she passed away, I think it was
2018.

Um, she, she said she'd actually rename it something. She
wouldn't call it eye movement desensitization anymore because it doesn't have
to be eye movements. It can be other sort of forms of, um, basically
stimulating your body left and right, left, right. So basically, what happens,
you activate a memory, you do some , bilateral stimulation and what happens,
it's , say if I gave you a really long phone number and I asked you to remember
that while also doing, asking you to do some other things like, , what happens,
it's really hard to keep a hold of that phone number while you're doing this ,
other stuff.

And so what happens, um, the memory actually becomes less vivid
and, um, and it desensitizes. So, uh, a little bit of the theory behind it is
that, , is what's called the adaptive information processing theory, which is
that, , our body and our brains are always trying to move us towards health and
healing.

So, an example would be, , if I have a physical cut, say on my
hand, my body would try and heal that cut, , just naturally. And, , but
sometimes that the cut might have, , might be. too deep, might need some
stitches, might need some antibiotics or whatever. Um, so once, once that's
done, , the wound's been, helped in some way, then the body will still try and
heal it.

So the healing process will still happen. Um, so with, , the
same. The same concept is with our experiences. So when we have an experience,
there's, , what they call adaptive information processing happens. So say we
have an experience, our brain will try and, process that experience. And so we
might think about whatever that experience was.

We might talk about it with other people. We might Some people
like journaling, so they might journal to make sense of it. They might dream
about it. And when it's what's called adaptively processed, that experience, ,
is basically filed away into our long term memory, , together with other
similar experiences.

And it's almost like we have this little librarian in our head
and her job is to, process those experiences and file them away together with
other similar experiences. Um, and But what happens when we have an experience
that is overwhelming to us, so, , something that's really scary, life
threatening, , doesn't make sense to us, for example, just overwhelming in one
way or another, our normal adaptive information processing, , doesn't happen.

Our system gets overwhelmed. So instead of those experiences
being adaptively processed and filed away, , they become stuck. Um, and so, ,
Like a little bit, like a

Rosie Skene:

glitch
sort of thing, like a glitch happens, that it just doesn't quite function, not
firing quite right,

Michelle Anderson:

is
that? Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's not, it's not, , it's not stored away, so it's
, it's like And traumatic memories have different elements to them, , they have
the image, which is, you know, part of the sensory stuff, they might have, , a
smell or a taste or, , a sound.

They also have, , feelings,, whether it's sadness, guilt,
horror, whatever. Um, and they also, they also have negative, um, negative
thoughts associated with them. , things like, I'm a failure or, , I'm not safe,
whatever, some, something, some , negative, what they call a negative cognition
or a negative belief.

So when our brain can't process that stuff, it gets stuck. , in
an unprocessed form in our brain and, , and that's why we get symptoms. So you
know, I think, , most people have heard of the, the term of a trigger like, ,
example for me, which I can laugh about now, but it wasn't funny at the time
when I was, , in like inpatient setting with the PTSD, one of the other, ,
patients in there, their ringtone on their phone was a siren.

So every time that, yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Totally not
appropriate. So every time that went off, my heart was like, yeah, , yeah,
sweating and all the rest of it. That's a trigger. So the sweating, the heart
racing, they're the symptoms, of an unprocessed memory or memories, ? And so
it's like, you're back there, , you're ready, , you're that coil of strength.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's an example of , symptoms from an
unprocessed experience or, or experiences. Um, so what happens with, , with
EMDR is that when we activate a memory and we do this, , bilateral stimulation,
they also call it dual attention stimuli. So whether it's, , whether it's the
eye movements, whether it's, , we can tap from side to side, there's, there's
different ways of, , getting our attention, , And when we do that, we start to
desensitize or make that memory less vivid.

And so when we bring down that level of disturbance, our
brain's natural information processing system kicks in. And, , because the
thing that stops it. Processing in the first place is that the experience is
overwhelming. It's, it's too big. , when the disturbance is too high, , that
librarian cannot do her job.

So, but when we bring the disturbance down, it's like, oh,
okay, yep, we can go now. , we can actually, the brain can do its processing.
And, , so we desensitize it. First of all, the, with the eye movements or, ,
other forms of stimulation. , and then what happens, which is really quite
amazing to see in action is that more adaptive or helpful information starts to
come in.

So, you might do, say, some, , stimulation, some eye movements,
for example, for 30 seconds. And then we stop. And I'll ask the client, what
are you noticing now? And it might be, oh, , that tightness in my chest has
moved or it's, it's, , less intense or whatever. So we're just making sure that
there's some processing happening, there's some movement.

So we'll stop every 30 seconds or so. And as the
desensitization happens. , it allows for more helpful, positive information
that's already up there in our brains to in with that, with that memory and
things like, , things, , a person might say, um, Oh, you know, I, I, I was
doing my best there, like , the more helpful information will just start to
connect and it's, , and you can see the look in their face.

It's like, Oh, well, I, , I knew that on one level, but I
didn't feel it. So it's because we desensitize, we can actually let the brain
make connections with that really helpful information that's already up there,
but it wasn't able to, um, connect with that information because the stuff was
too disturbing to the system.

Because we're just

Rosie Skene:

stuck in
the negative of the situation and not able to process anything that could have
been positive in relation to it.

Michelle Anderson:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So we could , say to someone else, usually , we're quite, ,
we're kinder and more compassionate towards other people. We might say to, , a
colleague like, Oh, no wonder you felt like that.

But when it's ourself, , our brain can't make that, can't make
that connection. But yeah, once we start to desensitize it, that's when the
links are made, , and , it's a rewiring, you know, um, and it's. And that's
where, , it's really good, because , it's not a lot of talking about, we don't
have to go, , go into that memory in detail, as long as we know that the
memory's been activated, it's been brought into short term working memory, and
then we do the, the, the dual attention stuff, and then the desensitizing.

The desensitization happens and then the links start to be
made. , and so what we do once we get that disturbance right down to what
we'll, what we, we have a scale zero to ten. Um, and it might start off as six,
seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven out of ten. , and so gradually it comes down.
Ideally we want it down to a zero, but sometimes , we can't get it to a zero
because it's not realistic.

, say if we're talking about a really horrendous job. people
died, a child died, whatever. That's never going to be a zero because that's
really sad and horrible. But if we can get it down to a one, okay, a one out of
ten, rather than a ten out of ten, that adaptive information processing , can
kick in.

, so we get it down to either zero or one, that, that level of
disturbance. And then we go, okay, what would I like to think about myself? ,
in future and so our negative beliefs, which are often about, , I'm not good
enough, , I didn't do enough, , that was, , they're usually around themes of
feeling overly responsible, for example, this or that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, once we can get the, , the, . the
disturbance level down, we come up with what would I like to believe instead.
And the person comes up with their own belief. Like, I'd like to think that, ,
I did the best I could, you know. And, and then the reprocessing part of the
EMDR, so the R part, is actually filing that now desensitized memory away into
long term memory with that new helpful belief that I did the best I could.

And so what it's doing, , It's allowing , the brain and the
body to put that stuff where it belongs, which is in the past. So rather than,
, being triggered anymore, , what happens is there, there's a sense that that
stuff's now in the past where it belongs.

And,

and it couldn't That couldn't have, that couldn't happen at the
time of , the actual incident because our brains were over, overwhelmed.

Um, yeah, does that make sense?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, it
does. So it's not to say that you won't remember that incident, or say one
incident anymore, but you'll have a more positive outlook on what happened, ,
and you'll be remembering in a more positive mindset than just being stuck in
that negative all the time about it.

So absolutely.

Michelle Anderson:

Yes. Yes. And also you won't get that, um, you know, there's a gradual
reduction in the triggers. You won't get triggered as often.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

And, I, I did some training. , in a particular, so there's what's called the
standard protocol for EMDR, which is where you, , you get, identify a target
memory and you, , reduce the disturbance and then you get , the more positive
belief and you file it away, , and you do it one by one, but there is a, ,
another protocol, which, , which is, I think really great for first responders
because there's not just going to be one memory, there's going to be lots and
lots of memories.

This is what I've been thinking, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Um, so what, what you do is you get the person to, um, actually what we
call run a mental movie. Okay, so you get them to run a mental movie of all
their experiences in, say, the police, the ambulance, fire brigade, whatever,
their first responder role.

The mind land on whatever is most disturbing and then you
desensitize that and before we do any reprocessing, we run the mental movie
again and go, okay, what else is there that's disturbing? And then we reprocess
that, uh, sorry, we desensitize that. And so we run that mental movie as many
times as is needed until the person can run that whole movie.

Without there being anything disturbing, and then we do the
reprocessing part. Okay, now when you want to, when you think about your
experiences as a first responder, how would, what would you like to think about
yourself? For example, , yeah, I did the best I could, for example. , and then
we.

We fold that away. So we can actually work on a theme, , rather
than identify specific individual, , have a target of 10, 20, 30, whatever. ,
and what, and the other thing that's really cool about EMDR is that, is what's
called the generalization effect. So once we start to desensitize memories, ,
the brain will generalize to other similar experiences.

So it's not like we have to. work through every single, ,
target

because

the brain just. In the background. We don't have to think about
it. There's no homework or anything. The brain will just keep, um, We'll keep
on processing in the background and it'll connect with other similar jobs and
desensitize those.

Rosie Skene:

That's
incredible. Just sort of like, Oh, you're sort of the same. Let's deal with
that. And you're the same. Let's deal with that.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. And it's subconscious. You don't consciously do it. You don't

Rosie Skene:

know
that you're doing it. I just think of the librarian after running that movie,
all those books that she's putting away.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. And what you can actually, so that's a particular, , protocol, ,
and that's where I got excited. Like when I did that training. So someone came
over from America, and I, I went and did this training and I actually
volunteered as a, , I was going to say guinea pig, , wasn't a guinea pig, like,
you know, for a demonstration in this training.

And cause I thought, Oh, she's, there's only about. I think
that five people trained in, trained as trainers in this particular protocol, ,
in, and none in Australia. , and so I thought this is a great opportunity to, ,
to do the training, but also to get some free therapy. So, so I did my, yeah,
yeah.

And it was very intense, but it was like, and at the end of it,
I was like a bit shaky because it was pretty, you know, it's like, wow, that
was amazing. , but amazing in a good way. Where I thought That just, for me, is
so, such a great technique for first responders, where you've got lots and lots
and lots of, , incidences.

Um, and, and just the idea that , your brain lands on what it
needs to land on, um, so it's not a conscious thing, it's , just let your brain
do its thing.

R

osie Skene:

I'm
loving this conversation so much. So I've got a couple of notes.

So EMDR is just for trauma, just, , so any traumatic incident,
is it for anything else that you would use it for, or it's just. Well, it was
developed, ,

Michelle Anderson:

for, for trauma, but it's also now there's lots of research on different, you
know, like, um, like phobia. Depression, addiction, anxiety, lots of different
things.

Rosie Skene:

Um,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

So , can it be used as a standalone therapy or can it also be
used in conjunction with other therapies, you know, like the cognitive
behavioural therapy and medication as well? Can you use, if you're medicated,
is there anything? Yeah,

Michelle Anderson:

absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, um, so there are three evidence based
treatments for PTSD.

So there's the prolonged exposure, which is a lot of, , like
talking about it, and that's the desensitization. Yeah, it's a talk therapy.
The cognitive processing therapy, which is, , again, a CBT based, um, talk
therapy where you sort of uncover those negative beliefs and, and, , you do
homework in between.

So you're challenging, those beliefs, , and then there's, ,
EMDR. , so yes, it can definitely be, , it's a standalone treatment, but it
also can be used as what they call adjunctive therapy. So together with other,
, whether it's a prolonged exposure , or the cognitive processing therapy, ,
and also together with, , with medication, , yeah, so it can be used for, ,
either standalone or together with other therapies.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.
And do you, I noticed, I had a, obviously a deep dive into your website, you
do, um, intensives?

Michelle Anderson:

Yes. Yes. And what does

Rosie Skene:

that
involve?

Michelle Anderson:

Um, so an intensive is where a person comes, , and instead of having like an
hour or a 90 minute session once a week or once a fortnight or whatever, they
come, , and they have, , like an all day one on one.

, session, , and they actually can have, like, I do usually
like a five, five days of intensive therapy. So that can either be back to back
days, like Monday to Friday, for example, or it might be, , three days this
week and maybe two days in, in a week or two weeks time. And , So that the idea
is that we, and what actually happens, it's really interesting to see.

It sounds intense and it is intense, but because it's, , it's
just kicked starting that the natural process, the adaptive, um, process,
information processing process, , It's like the brain kicks into gear and goes,
okay, this is what we're doing and we actually move through targets, ,
surprisingly quickly.

Um, so yeah, so basically , the person comes and, and , we'll
work one on one all day. We'll have breaks, , and we'll talk about stuff as
well. . So it's not all just sitting there following my fingers sort of thing,
or I've got like this light bar sort of thing.

It's not all that all day. , and this is where I think, ,
having been a first responder, we can talk about stuff in between, , not in a,
, re traumatizing way, but , we just sort of, , we have a bit of gallant humour
and we, , can talk about funny things as well. Another interesting thing that
happens after some processing kicks in, people start to remember The good stuff
about being a first responder, it's not all the negative stuff and there's lots
of good stuff and funny jobs and, you know, yeah, things that you did that and
they start to remember that.

And they actually have a laugh too. It's not all serious stuff.
, but basically, yeah, the intensive is that it's an accelerated form of
treatment really. I'm, what's called a, like a, a CIRA, so the New South Wales
Workers Comp System. They have, , approved providers.

And so if a person is under the Workers Compensation System in
New South Wales, and they're a first responder, , then they're usually, PTSD
diagnosis. They are, , often. Eligible for an intensive, meaning that workers
comp will cover the cost of , the treatment that will also cover the cost of
the accommodation.

So, , they don't have to live near where I am, they can
actually come here and it's like this, you know, they can come like a mental
health retreat if you want. They come, they get booked into, , a local motel, .
Covered by,, workers comp, so they'll come here during the day, and then at the
end of the day, they can, , go back to the motel and , just chill, , in a sort
of a holiday area, so they can go fishing, or go to the beach, or just walk
along the water, or whatever, they can go and get a pedicure, a manicure, or, ,
go to the pool, or go to some yoga, or whatever, so they can, , do some self
care stuff in between, , and, , so they, yeah, they come for the five days,
and, And as I said, it can be five consecutive days or it might be a block of
three days and then a block of two days.

Um, and then they go back , and so if they're already working
with a therapist, maybe a therapist that doesn't do MDR, , they can go back to
that therapist , after the. EMDR intensive. , so it can be what they call an
adjunct therapy. ,

Rosie Skene:

yeah.
That's so great to know that, , yeah, that the workers comp system in New South
Wales will, will cover that and the travel, and accommodation to, to go and
have that therapy.

Because that's, I think, one of the things that turns a lot of
people off, isn't it? Like having all those extra costs, , or trying a therapy
that's not approved. , because it's so much harder to try different things that
might work for you.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. , and, , that is, I suppose, , one nice thing, I think,
about

you know, being a first responder is, is that obviously the
workers comp system have identified, , a small category of people, so first
responder and a PTSD diagnosis, and if it's a evidence based treatment, , they
will cover that cost, which is, , to me, it's really validating, , like that,
yeah, this, this is needed.

And, , and it works and I'm not, I don't want to overstate it
because it's not like, , after five days, , it's sunshine and, , everything's
wonderful again, but, , it, as I said, it's evidence based and , it just brings
that level of, , hypervigilance and just an avoidance, , we work on, and that's
the other thing with EMDR, , it's called a three pronged approach.

So we look at, , what are the current triggers? , what are the
previous experiences and also what, what's what they call a future template.
What, how do I want to handle things in the future? So things like , I've been
avoiding going to the local shopping center, for example. Um, okay.

Yeah, yeah, me too. Everyone, I think that's a common thing, .
I don't want to see people who know me and, , and it's overwhelming to my
nervous system. Anyway, , the, , supermarkets and stuff. So, okay. Let's
imagine. You going and doing that after you've and and so we run again a mental
movie and we can desensitize Potential barriers like you know your brain will
come up with oh, what if I see someone and like just the example like when?

When , I bumped into, um, a former colleague at Bunnings,
Christmas time, just gone. And, , so I didn't have EMDR, , treatment myself,
when I was going through PTSD. It wasn't, , I didn't even know about it.
Wasn't, and it wasn't suggested to me. So, I had the more traditional talk
therapy. But, , training in EMDR, , I've reprocessed a lot of, , a lot of my
experiences.

Um, but anyway, Christmas just gone, I was in the local
Bunnings and I bumped into a former colleague who was, , must have been on call
because he was in, , full uniform and everything. And I just had a chat with
him about, , kids and Christmas and what are you doing and all that. But it
wasn't until afterwards I thought, hey, that was just like a normal
conversation.

Normally, I would have been doing that whole negative self
talk, what's he thinking about me, , all of that sort of stuff.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

And it was just, that just did not happen. , and it was like Because now I, I
know that, jeez, I did the best I could for 21 years , and that was enough for
me. And it doesn't mean that, , I'm a failure, that I couldn't do it for 40
years, you know.

, so it was just really interesting to reflect on that I didn't
get that heart racing. And also, , when was it? Yes, I was coming, or it might
have been this morning, coming to work and, , driving through my normal town.
And there's an ambulance coming the other way, it was early morning, so they
didn't have their sirens on, but they had their lights on.

And I
didn't get that heart racing, I didn't get that, , feel sick in the gut or
anything like that. It was just like, oh yeah, there's an ambulance. There's an
ambulance. Yeah. , so it puts the past in the past, basically,

yeah. We've talked a lot about the benefits, are there any
known negative side effects to EMDR at all?

Rosie Skene:

Well, I,
I

Michelle Anderson:

don't know if there's a, if you would call it a negative, but what can happen
is other memories can come up.

Rosie Skene:

Okay.

Michelle Anderson:

Other memories can come up, um, and That you didn't know

Rosie Skene:

that you
had, maybe? Like, like

Michelle Anderson:

childhood sort of

Rosie Skene:

stuff?

Michelle Anderson:

Is
that Yep. Um, and so, , and that's okay. So, with that mental movie thing, ,
what we tend to do, because it's, work cover paying for this.

So, the first theme is always work related stuff, you know?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

Um, and so we process that, , but if other stuff comes up, We sort of, and we
have techniques to actually, , put that stuff aside into like a mental
container. So if other things come up that are obviously associated some way,
we, and, and it's not directly work stuff.

So we try and really, , keep the focus on the work stuff , and
work through that. But if there are other things that come up, we can then. We
can deal with those after we've done the work stuff.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. And, that's the thing. First responders, , like anyone, they can have
their childhood stuff that, you know, and it doesn't have to have been big
stuff.

It could have been big stuff, but it can, you know, who doesn't
have experiences of maybe, . Being left out at school or things that we don't
even realize in practice. Yeah, and and that's sort of Again with when we're
when we're working through the work stuff sometimes if we don't get that level
of disturbance right down.

Often that's what's called a feeder memory. There's something
else there that might have been an earlier experience that's stopping it
getting right down. And so we uncover that stuff. But and again the cool thing
is because we do the work stuff first and there is this sense of like, oh I can
do this, .

Um, there's this big stuff that , I've been avoiding for such a
long time but I can actually I can go towards that, I can activate that, and I
can process it, so there's a sense of like a sense of, , yeah, I can do this, I
can, I can use this therapy and it's working, so other stuff that comes up, we
can then address that after we do the work stuff.

Yeah, so like

Rosie Skene:

other
memories might be like just putting their hand up and like, Oh, , remember me?
Can we deal with maintenance sort of thing? Yes.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. Don't forget me. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, , usually , what I suggest with, , so in terms
of the intensive and workers comp, um, sort of the process is that the person
goes to their doctor and, we have a chat first and then see if it's a good fit
because for some people it might not be the time, , so if a person says like
acutely suicidal, , it might not be the time to do EMDR or if they've got like
a significant, what they call a dissociative disorder, , And that hasn't been
treated.

Okay, again, not the time to be going straight into EMDR. , so
it's like, okay, I have a chat with them, , via Zoom or whatever, and we have
a, , we get an idea whether , it's a suitable. option right now. And then the
person goes to their GP, has a chat, and if the GP agrees, they send through a
referral to me.

Then I put that into, into the , workers comp, , the case
manager. , , , and so what I'll generally do with first responders, because
potentially there is so much material to work on, I'll suggest let's apply for
five days of, , intensives. , and if we get that approved, That's great,
doesn't mean we have to use the five days.

So if a person goes, you know what, I don't want to deal with
it. Childhood stuff. I just want to do the work stuff. We might not need five
days. We might need two or three days and that's fine. We don't have to use the
five days. , but so far the people that have, you know, I've, I've worked with,
we do use the five days cause there's usually, and again, it doesn't have to be
childhood stuff.

Could be, yeah, it could be medical stuff. Could be , something
else. , yeah. So, um, yeah, so that's sort of the process and then we work out,
, you know, dates and work it all out from there, sort of thing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. And would, , someone that has done a five day intensive, do you
have any, , people that come back for another one or is five days usually, ,
pretty good to deal with?

You know most stuff.

Michelle Anderson:

Yeah, most stuff. Yeah, I haven't I've had people say, , can we have some
individual, , shorter sessions and we can do that via via telehealth, , so
that's just yeah, it's tidying up some stuff and reinforcing , some stuff. .
But, um, yeah, I haven't had anyone saying, I want to come back for another
five days.

, because usually you get such a bulk of stuff done in that
five days, like we might get 25, 30 target memories. Well, desensitized in that
time, , which, , might have taken years. Of course, that's the other thing
about an intensive. It's not like, , if you go to for weekly or fortnightly or
monthly appointments, you go there, you've got maybe an hour, 50 minutes, an
hour, hour and a half, if you're lucky, usually not.

Um, the first 10 minutes is a bit of a catch up and then, ,
then we might have half an hour to do some processing. And then we need another
10 minutes to just , to pack everything back in and make sure you're okay to
leave the room again. And so it's very much stopping and starting. But , when
you've got all day, , you can just.

Um, and so yeah, you can work on an amazing amount of stuff in
a concentrated period of time. It's like, just get this momentum going.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's so awesome. I'm finding this so interesting. Um, and I really like, I
think the thing I like the most for first responders is that you don't have to
talk that much in detail about it.

I think that's such the thing. It's a beautiful thing because
we don't need to, we don't need to talk about it anymore. No,

Michelle Anderson:

no, no, absolutely. And that's, you know, there's a technique called blind to
therapist, which is basically, which I did , when I was the guinea pig at when
this person came over from America because I was there at the front of a group
of people who are, , other therapists who were training in this particular, , I
didn't really want to talk, like I didn't want to say, , it was a hanging or a
shooting or a this or a that.

So we agreed beforehand , when I was talking to , the trainer,
, that we could do what's called blind to therapist, which means as long as I,
I've activated a memory, all I have to say to her is, yeah, I've got it. And
then, then we do the processing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah.

Michelle Anderson:

And, and so we, you know, after 30 seconds or so, she'll stop and go, what do
you notice now?

And I might say, , I feel sick in the gut, or, , I just had the
thought of whatever. Um, or, um, and I don't, and I, it's more that. What we
need to know as like therapists is that the, the processing is happening. So
there's movement, something's moving or changing or shifting as the, as they
say.

, so we don't have, we don't need a lot of detail. And so when
we actually stop and go, , what are you noticing now? We just want like a
headline, newspaper headline. We don't want, we don't want war and peace. Um,
we just want, oh, I just had the thought that, or a lot of it's bodily stuff
because.

We store a lot of this stuff in our body. So it might be, oh, ,
yeah, I'm not feeling as tight in the chest anymore. Okay, good, let's keep
going, . And that, that's it. The other thing I, I find being, having been a
first responder is first responders care about other people and they also, they
care about the therapist and they don't want to traumatize the therapist.

So often when we first start they'll go, oh, is it okay for me
to tell you what it is? And I go, yeah, absolutely, , but again, you don't have
to tell me a lot. You might just say, , it was a shooting for example, or it
was, , something to do with a child or whatever. , and that's enough and then
we just, off we go.

We'll just start the processing.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah, I
can think of one friend in particular of mine who's a police officer, , who had
a psychologist who said that they couldn't work with him anymore because it was
too traumatizing for the psychologist, , stuff that he had to deal with. And I
just think, yeah, he would probably really benefit out of something like this
that he didn't have to keep going over.

He has found a psychologist now that he can work with, which is
great. Yeah, I mean, that is something that does happen too, because some of
the trauma that first responders go through, people don't. necessarily want to
know about, even therapists. Yes, exactly.

Michelle Anderson:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, as I said, , they look at you, I could see them
looking at me going, is this okay to say it?

And, and once I say, yeah, yeah, that's fine. And you don't
need to tell me in detail, so they'll just give me a little snippet. And then
off we go. And you can see them go, oh, okay, it's all right. Um, yeah. And
that's the other thing, PTSD is about turning away from that hard stuff because
and also just to normalize it like it makes sense that first responders get
PTSD because if we had to feel the whole everything associated with every job.

We'd be a basket case. We'd be in the corner. So we have to, ,
put stuff aside , And , if we put the stuff aside, our brain can't process it,
, so it's like this, it's, it's dissociation, it's sort of turning away from
that stuff, and so there becomes an accumulation of that stuff that we've
turned away from, but when we're doing the therapy, when we actually learn that
actually we can turn towards that stuff rather than turn away from it, um, and
it's okay, um, because we're doing it together, , then, It's sort of like, oh
yeah, , this is okay.

I , I can do this, , and it's not overwhelming. Um, yeah, ,
which is really. Really cool. In

Rosie Skene:

relation
to doing the therapy, and then say afterwards, whether you do an intensive or,
you know, it's over a period of time, what are some benefits of it, , in
relation, , obviously we're processing our trauma, but what about, , other
things that we experience, especially one is like relationships can be
strained, , Our physical health, like gut health, is a big one, I know, , that
we deal with that we don't really know that we're dealing with.

, all of those other little things, can they be affected as
well in a positive way?

Michelle Anderson:

Absolutely. Absolutely. , I don't know if a, there's a book. , it's a bit of a,
, Bible for, , trauma called the body keeps a score. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. So
it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I get phone calls from people.

I've just read this book. Have you heard of it? Yeah. Yeah. And
they talk about EMDR. . But yeah, the body, , it's interrelated like , we, ,
and like a physical injury is never just physical, , it's got the psychological
element and vice versa. We have these psychological injuries that do impact ,
our body as well.

So when we actually, , deal with. the unprocessed memories, ,
those symptoms decrease. , so we get a sense of, okay, that's, we've worked
through that stuff, now it's in the past, so we're not getting, , this, all of
this, the physiological responses, , so we're not feeling hyper vigilant
meaning and, , there's something called the window of tolerance.

Those who have, , had therapy will probably, , so when we're
inside our window of tolerance, that's where we can tolerate, , challenging
negative thoughts, feelings, memories, etc. But when we move outside our window
of tolerance, , that's where, , we can feel. angry, irritable, anxious,
panicky, rage, , or we can feel shut down.

When we, when we start to process this stuff, our nervous
system becomes more regulated. So we're not as jumpy, we're not as irritable.
So of course that's going to be beneficial to our relationships. , and we're
going to be able to, , go to the shops without, , having to avoid it. We're
going to be able to, , socialize again.

, and again, I don't want to , over promise and under deliver.
I prefer it the other way around, but , it can be like this gradual, Oh, , I
bumped into someone and I didn't get this. Big response. So maybe does that
mean I can maybe contact a friend who I've been avoiding because I've been
really down on myself, , , and then just start to, .

Start a new normal, , getting back into, , living the way you
want to live, , rather than feeling like you've got a, , feeling ashamed of
yourself or, , like a failure , or feeling like scared because this stuff feels
present, , so it is about putting it in the past and so we can actually do the
stuff we want to do, , in life.

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
yeah. , I've only got one more question for you, and that is, , I feel like
we've been talking, because we're talking about PTSD, normally, a high
percentage of people would have left whatever agency they were with. , can we,
can this be used and look, I know that we covered that eligibility with, ,
workers comp, you have to have the diagnosis of PTSD, but say someone is
currently serving in a first responder agency and maybe they don't have a PTSD
diagnosis, so obviously it won't be covered by WorkCover or whatever, but can
they use this EMDR as a preventative?

Because I think that's so important to sort of Get on top of it
if they can.

Michelle Anderson:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So it is about learning how, like, , about processing
the stuff that's there already. So yeah, you don't have to get to the stage
where, , I don't know, for me, it was, I can't do this anymore.

It was like this, you know, my body, my body was like, nah,
you're not doing it anymore. So you don't need to wait, , to get to that stage.
You can use it as a preventative, , absolutely. So work through anything that
you haven't worked through. , and then also there's this great technique in
terms of, .

The originator of this particular protocol, he actually
recommends to, , first responders actually doing a particular technique where
at the end of each shift or each day, they process their staff using a
particular technique. So, again, as a preventative thing, yeah, yeah, which is.
Yeah, which, which is really good.

Yeah, so it doesn't have to be, yeah, you've left the job. It
could be you're noticing some stuff, , and you want to get, you know, get on
the front foot and, and work through whatever is the stuff that's, that's
stuck, that's creating, , this feeling. And then you also develop strategies
for, okay, how do I, , how do I process stuff as it happens as well?

Rosie Skene:

Yeah,
that's fantastic. I'm such a big believer in keeping, you know, good people in
these jobs because we need them. Um, so if we can, yeah, have some ideas of how
they can help themselves before it gets to the stage where they have to leave,
I think that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Awesome.

. Thank you. It's, thank you so much for coming on, Michelle.
It's been like a real joy to learn about something that I haven't experienced
myself, which I'm, I think I'm going to think about doing it now. Um, but yeah,
I think just getting the knowledge out, I'm really huge on increasing the
literacy of the first responders and what's available to them.

Because like you said, sometimes you just don't know what you
don't know and you don't know what's available to you. Um, Again, the cost of
things for first responders, especially if they're off work can be quite
significant. So it's been really great to learn everything about what you've
said today. So thank you so much.

Michelle Anderson:

You're very welcome. And can I just say, I've been listening, you know, to your
podcast and to me, like, um. I don't know, the sense I'm getting from your
podcast is just that sense of, um, camaraderie, you know, and, and like just a
normalisation that this, this stuff is normal because we face abnormal. Events.

Rosie Skene:

Absolutely. Time

Michelle Anderson:

after time after time. So it's not like a fault or, , it's actually a normal
response to abnormal, you know, experiences. And , and also just talking to
people , who have moved on, you know, yes, okay, they might have left, ,
police, fire, ambulance, whatever, but there's life after.

As well, you know, and, , so being able to resolve those
symptoms so that you can actually look forward, , and also be proud of the
service that you've, um, , that you've done for the, for the community rather
than feel ashamed of yourself, , yeah, I think, , so I think, yeah, talking
about this stuff , and, , yeah, and just, , I've really enjoyed , listening to
your podcast and yeah, listening to what other people are doing, , and moving
forward and yeah, and as I said, having, you know, feeling good about
themselves rather than the opposite because people should because it is, it's a
hard job that not everyone can do.

So, you know. Um, I think, yeah, actually being proud of
yourself is, , not in a, , not in a, , In a wanky way? No, not wanky, not
egotistical, just like, yeah, it was, and also, , as I said before, being able
to connect , with the good stuff about, , your service as well, the fun stuff,
, being able to remember that and, , yeah, it is really important as well
because it's not all, , hard stuff.

There's great stuff as well.

Rosie Skene:

That's
right. And like you said, we can get stuck in that negative for a little bit
too long and not realize how good, , some of those times were. So, yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much. Thanks again for coming on. It's been great. You're very
welcome, Rosie. Thank you.

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