Rosie: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Today is the very last day that our doors are open for the first responder mental wellness method until June. So if you'd like to take control of your mental wellness and you are a currently serving transitioning or retired first responder, veteran or frontline worker, and you would like to take control of your mental wellness, you'd like to sleep better, feel happier, more energized.

Then I implore you to come and check out the program at tacticalyogaaustralia.com/firstrespondermentalwellnessmethod doors are open till 8 PM tonight, Tuesday, the 19th, March, 2024. And like I said, doors won't be open again until June this year. And that just allows me time with the people that have enrolled with the program.

So I would love for you to take this opportunity, come check it out. And I would love to welcome you in to the program today. Now, today we have Alana Singleton on the show. Um, Alana began her New South Wales policing career as a fresh faced 20 year old probationary constable in Bankstown Local Area Command in 2001.

It was here in amongst the emerging gangland family wars that Alana developed a passion for investigations, which continued for most of her career, serving more than 13 years as a detective across state crime command. In 2015, Alana took a promotion to the rank of sergeant and returned to general duties within Sydney's southern suburbs.

It was then that Alana started to notice the impact her service was having on her mental health, impacting her work and home life. In 2018, having been diagnosed with PTSD and medically retired before 40, Alana struggled with her mental illness diagnosis, as well as the confusing space of a work injury that seemed to keep her stuck in the past.

A complete loss of her identity as a police officer and no clear plan for recovery or hope for a better future. Alana finally found a path to recovery with the help of her uni friend and fellow NSW police officer, Pia Schindler. As though, Thank you. Navigated the complexities of work related mental illness.

They realized how widespread the impacts of service trauma were across all the emergency service organizations and knew they needed to do something to affect change for those who were suffering. As a result, they created the charity Emergency to ensure that no one was lost, alone, confused, or ashamed, and that everyone impacted by service trauma and mental illness had a path to recovery.

A supportive, free, and independent peer lived and living experience led network to encourage recovery. Rehabilitation and optimism for all New South Wales and ACT emergency services workers to emerge and see a better future. Let's get into it.

INTRO:

  Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skeene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter more fulfilling life whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life starts right here.  

Rosie:  Hi Alana. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Alana: Thanks so much for having me, Rosie. .

Rosie: So I thought we'd just get straight into it and I was wondering what led you to join the New South Wales Police Force.

Alana: Yeah, so it seems like a lifetime ago, but whilst I was at high school, , my high school had a school excursion when I was in year 10, and we went to Sydney Police Centre, , and, you know, for half a day, got to sort of experience, , so many aspects of it, aspects of policing and then later that year, we had an opportunity to do work experience, and I had chosen to go back to Sydney Police Centre and do work experience there and spent, I don't remember how long, maybe a week or 2 weeks, , going into all the specialist units, ballistics, crime scene, fingerprints. And just was fascinated.

I was like, wow, you can do all of these things in this job. And it's so interesting. I think through a 16 year old's eyes, you know, going down into the firing range and seeing a gun fired. And there was just so many parts that. Other 16 year olds didn't get to experience. And I think that started my sort of fascination,, with policing.

I didn't know anyone that was a police officer. , and then sort of two years later, it came time, , to look at university choices and saw that they were offering for the first time, a degree in policing through the university of Western Sydney.

Yeah. And, , you know, looked at that as well as weird things like architecture and art theory, because I have lots of different sides of me.

, and my parents said, well, at least you'll always have job security if you join the police force. , and so, yeah, went and did the first 3 year degree in policing, um, which is where I met the co founder of Emergency PR while we were at uni, and, um, I don't know, even when I was at uni, I don't think I really thought too much about.

The end being you become a cop, , with more just interest. I think that led me to the career. Awesome. So after you, so you did three years at uni and then where'd you go from there? Yeah. So ended up then at the academy as a graduate. , and so that meant we only had to do 14 weeks at the police academy.

Um, so did the 14 weeks of sort of training and things. , and I think it, you know, it kind of felt right that I'd always been the kind of kid that was getting into trouble because I was helping other people. And to the detriment of myself, or, you know, my mom would say, why are you late? And I'm like, Oh, I just have to help this person.

So I think all of those things combined then led me there. And then, yeah, got to that time at the end of the academy, where you put in your choices for where you want to go. And I'd sort of said cool places like the rocks and central and all of these places. , and the postings all got put up and mine said Bankstown.

You think it's funny? I did not at the time think it was funny. And my mom, I think cried. I was 20 at the time. And say, yeah, knowing that on my 21st birthday was my first shift at Bankstown at the time local area command. Yeah, awesome. But how was it though? Wow. It was an experience and I know no different.

I think starting at somewhere like Bankstown, I didn't know what the alternative looked like. I know that it was a very, very busy place to work. I know that the teams there had very high workloads. , but it was interesting. I mean, the work that we did was so varied. , everything from, you know, your staffing. Standard jobs, but up to really, and regularly attempted murders, murders, big drug deals, drug supply. , so it was a, it was a really interesting place to work.

Rosie: Yeah. And especially so early on in your career to, to be exposed to so many different jobs instead of like, you know, a lot of people get exposed to domestics and more domestics and, and you don't get to see you know, a lot of other things that actually happen.

Alana: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Bankstown was the kind of place where you, , you had exposure to a lot very quickly and you also had a lot of responsibility really quickly. Yeah.

Rosie: Yeah. That's so exciting. Did you stay in Sydney for your career?

Alana: Yeah, I did. I'm a true through and true city cop. Um, and, you know, probably had a bit of a different experience that I was only in general duties for about 13 months. Okay. , as a part of, our, , first year we sort of did rotations to a lot of the different units within, , the police station. You went to highway patrol and did some work with them. For a couple of weeks, and then you would go to the detectives for a few weeks, , you know, the proactive crime teams. Yeah. They sort of moved you around just to see what parts of policing you liked. And I straight away had an affinity for investigation work. Bankstown detectives. Wow. Like they just did the most amazing jobs.

And so, yeah, within sort of 13 months of joining, I actually went up, , as an A lister, , with Bankstown detectives. , and that really then became the trajectory for the rest of my career. Yeah.

Rosie: That's so cool that you could do it so early on. , they had the staff obviously to cover GDs back in those days that you could do that.

Alana:Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think just the, the workload, , we're in that sort of more serious crime was so high in that area. That was the early 2000s. So it was really at the catalyst of all of the, , gangland, , issues around that area for Middle Eastern crime. So we'd had quite a number of murders within the area, so it sort of pushed the need to have, , people within their office.

So yeah, I was like very young, , doing attempted murders, um, but in Bankstown, that was normal. We all had that kind of level of responsibility. Yeah. Wow. And you, did you stay in Bankstown? , no, again, I think just the, the very quick trajectory, , in around 2003, there was a murder, , of a guy at a petrol station, , that we were involved in and state crime then became involved in that job. , and like I said, because of, , the, the issue with these murders happening more and more frequently. Frequently, they started Task Force Gain, , and they drew a lot of resources. And I was one of those resources that went over initially for a six months secondment, , to Task Force Gain, but ended up at State Crime for 13 years.

Um, so stayed there for a very long time. And, , Task Force Gain eventually became Middle Eastern Organized Crime, which is where I stayed, , on and off throughout the rest of my career.

Rosie: How exciting. Like how interesting to, for you to, . do all of those things

Alana: Yeah, it was. I think when I was younger, um, I always had the best stories at the dinner table.

, you know, what we were doing was really interesting. I think at that time the adrenaline, , was exciting. Yeah. You know, I didn't see that as a bad thing. We definitely put ourselves in positions that I remember thinking to myself, like, oh, my God, you know, am I really at the back of a house with my gun drawn at 2 o'clock in the morning?

Um, but you don't really think through those experiences at the time more than that, that where this is. Weird.

Rosie: Yeah, yeah. What are other 20 year olds doing right now?

Alana: Yes, definitely not that. Yeah, so I look back now very much, , with Yeah, a lot of positive memories, , but it did take me a long time to get back to that. Yeah.

Rosie: And did you want to talk about, , when you left a little bit?

Alana: Yeah. So like I said, I was at state crime for 13 years and, , you know, I'll acknowledge that state crime are very, , highly resourced, um, I really feel like they have, , a relatively strong working environment and I was lucky enough to have that experience while I was there.

For me, , sort of the deterioration of my mental health and I suppose, , my career came when I, , took a promotion. Um, so I'd been in the job. You know, 12 or 13 maybe years, I get terrible with time lines, um, and, um, yeah, had made that inevitable step, , to go through the promotion system, had done really well, , and even though I'd been at state crime for so long, there definitely was sort of a push to go back to general duties for that promotion.

Yeah. And, yeah, you sort of guided by other people and and their advice to you in an organization like the police. And I did that. And, , yeah, I think that was the 1st step to the end for me. I think. Being at state crime for so long and being in general duties for such a short amount of time, I got caught up in a system, a promotion system that probably wasn't effective in the fact that I then went into a supervisor's position, , with not the right level of experience.

, going back into general duties after 13 years, so much had changed. And, you know, I pride myself on I'm an A type personality, highly driven. I like to be successful. I push myself academically in my career. Um, I like to be in control and know what I'm doing. And I had that level of confidence and that just took the confidence straight out of me.

I felt like I didn't belong there. I felt like I didn't deserve to be there. Yeah. I really started to second guess, , every aspect of my work and my capability. And then I think that's where the fear started to come in. I really started to focus on life and death choices that not only was I making for myself.

But I then had a team, , of people much younger than me and much more junior to me, and I was then making choices that were potentially, , putting them in life or death situations and that burden, , that I started to feel became very overwhelming and then to the point, very debilitating, , in my ability to keep working effectively.

Rosie: Yeah. I just, what you're saying there about how much, you know, GDs changes. I remember each time I went off to have a child and would come back, you know, 11 months later, there was a whole new system that I had to relearn just, just to be able to put jobs on like, it's, it moves so fast. So I can't even imagine after 13 years, um, things that you would have had to have like learned and relearned.

Yeah, and then be a supervisor as well. Yeah.

Alana: Yes. And I think for me, I was always really open with my team about that, that I wasn't pretending to be someone that I wasn't, um, I was learning very quickly and very hard lessons on the job. Um, and I was open to that. I feel like I went through a stage, um, where I was, you know, sort of angry and frustrated that I felt like I'd been thrown into this position that everyone told me would be okay.

And I naively believe there would be some kind of transitional support, some kind of mentoring. , and unfortunately there's just not the resources to be able to provide that. So it really was just being thrown into the deep end, , and feeling, yeah, really overwhelmed by that sense of burden. , Yeah, it was hard for me.

Really, really hard.

Rosie: Yeah, that would be difficult. I just can't even imagine. and yeah, knowing the support that probably wasn't available to you, , just that extra layer, right?

Alana: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I think I pushed through for me. I was like, so determined, like I'm going to be the best Sergeant I can be.

And, , I loved, like, mentoring the younger staff and really spending time with them. And, , yeah, there are, there are a lot of different cultural aspects, I think, of general duties, , compared to state crime. I found it really frustrating for our staff, , you know, the workload and the pressure that they were under constantly.

And, you know, those need to do back to back jobs, , without any, you know, Thanks. , you know, I really think GDs are a really undervalued resource in the New South Wales police and I was watching that happen. , but yeah, I sort of pushed on and I did my best. , but again, like, started just to notice that.

My physiological reaction, I was losing control over. I was going to jobs and the level of panic that I was experiencing for jobs that really didn't require that level of adrenaline burst, but I was struggling. I was then getting really paranoid before I'd go to work, you know, I was like. Waiting for signs.

If my daughter cried, I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm going to die at work today. I shouldn't go. I should request to be a station supervisor today. So really weird things that I was starting to think meant that these catastrophic events were going to happen at work. , and then I think for me, and I, I probably start to get emotional.

The negative sense of self really started to come in. Sorry, I didn't expect to get emotional. Um, yeah, like, you know, that negative sense where I started to think like, you're just a shit cop, like, you don't deserve to be here. You know, what were you thinking? , yeah, I just really started to doubt every aspect of myself and again, kept pushing on like no one at work would have ever known that I struggled.

I remember actually Pia you know, just talked about and we'll talk about more later. I remember after. Probably wasn't even my first block, , as a GD sergeant and I sat in my car and I just cried and I just said to her, like, I didn't think I can do this. Um, yeah, and just knowing that I, like, tried everything to, yeah, to overcome it because you don't want to be the weak person and you want to succeed.

Um, yeah, so I did, I tried everything and it wasn't, I suppose, for me, I would have kept pushing, I think, um, and then unfortunately on the 2nd of October 2015, yeah, it went, sorry. No, take your time, don't be sorry. Um, yeah, when Curtis Cheng was murdered at, um, at police headquarters. I think for me, that was just the point where I was like, that was everything that I worried would be the outcome and watching that play out and knowing I'd walked in and out of that building at that time so many times and the initial worry that we didn't know who it was and playing through as information was coming through the media, trying to contact colleagues.

Um, I just collapsed and I was supposed to go to work that night and. I couldn't, I just, I couldn't, I knew I couldn't do it anymore. Um, yeah. And so at first it was calling work and telling them it was sort of a me issue. There's something wrong with me and I need to fix it. But that was kind of the beginning of the, the end for me with a lot of attempts to go back to work.

, I think I took a little bit of time off. but again, like identity, , you know, financial, you know, things that I was worried about, um, I'm a worker I'm driven, I want to achieve. So I was pushing to get back into the workplace, but I knew I couldn't go back into that environment that had seen my deterioration.

I got so desperate after a few attempts, um, that just wouldn't work with the organisation. I actually relinquished my sergeant's position. , I gave it up in the hope that I could just go back. You think that that will work? Yeah. Um, and I just thought maybe if I go back to state crime, um, I had an amazing commander at the time, Peter McErlain, who said, we will take you back.

Um, You know, come back and I did, I relinquished my position. I went back there, but I was not the same person. I remember people saying to me, like, what's wrong? Like, you are not yourself anymore. I was broken. Um, yeah, like, I think so much damage had then had come into me that it was going to take a lot for me to get back.

And again, I thought that state crime would be a safe place again. , but again, I knew too much about a lot of the things that happened in the risk assessment side of that organization that I didn't feel safe there anymore either. Um, and then took the next big step again with the amazing support of Peter McErlain.

I asked for a year leave without pay. And I just thought I need out. I need out of this space to be safe again. And I was lucky enough to straight away get a job with the University of New South Wales as a student integrity advisor. And wow, like, that was amazing. Um, talk about a low risk environment that protects risks beyond anything else.

Yeah. They were amazing. I didn't ever disclose, um, that I'd sort of been having these struggles and they knew I'd been a cop or I was still a cop at the time , but I just said, you know, I'd achieved a lot and I wanted to just try something new. I didn't sort of disclose my mental health concerns. , and then, yeah, had an awesome first 6 months.

I was like, oh, okay, this is great. My mental health lifted. , I was doing really well, but. Within 6 months, , it all just came crashing down. I was being re triggered by things. I was having panic attacks. , yeah, the attempts to push away, um, all of my experiences and my desperate desire to. Keep working.

, my capacity and my desire were no longer aligning. So, yeah, I ended up having to leave there. And that also then started, , the trajectory to medical retirement because I just knew that if I couldn't even do that job, there was no way I was able to go back to the Police yeah. I'm just been nodding my head this whole time that you've been talking because I can resonate with it also much like, you know, that desire to keep pushing and, um, feeling like you're an A type personality.

So you want to keep, you know, doing the best job that you can and pushing through it. And, you know, maybe like not really thinking about mental health, but like, what's going on? Like this isn't me. And yeah, the desire to keep on pushing is, um, yeah, it's real. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie: So did you, you didn't go back after that?

Alana: No, , I didn't go back into the workplace. Um, they started, I think at that point, I just knew that I had no capacity at all. And that there was no chance there was nothing that they could suggest anymore within that work environment where I wasn't going to be triggered, , or, you know, Or deteriorate.

So yeah, I was medically retired. Then it, that ended up being in 2018, I was medically retired from the police. , and it's weird because, , well, I thought it was weird, uh, until recently that it was like out of the workplace, I thought. That's where my, , triggers and my symptoms, , would decrease, but really found then while I was at home, I was getting worse and worse.

And it was speaking to Professor Zach Steele, who explained that PTSD thrives in the work environment. It has an outlet. It has an escape where it's actually useful. But then when you're just in this bubble of home and it's quiet and there's nothing else around. Your PTSD has no escape other than just to manifest itself.

, it has no outlet. , and so everything then and, um, starting to engage in, in treatment and therapy, which for me was unfortunately two years after diagnosis, the first time I started to understand service trauma. , and so, yeah, just. Opening up almost like a Pandora's box of those experiences and for me, mostly I hated this concept that psychologists and psychiatrists wanted to talk about trauma.

, Tell me about your trauma. , and my response, which I don't think is a Necessarily a typical one was that I'd never experienced trauma, um, in 18 years because my threshold to trauma was so high. Um, my response was, I've never been shot or stabbed, like, so I've not experienced trauma. I've done policing for 18 years, but I've never had trauma and starting to understand that this.

We'd focus on that horrific sudden loss of life and the visuals associated to that weren't necessarily the things that were impacting me and the constant push on that that's what trauma looked like added to my guilt and shame because no one was acknowledging the fact that actually it's the fact that I can't turn this off.

Fight flight response off and on. Um, it just happens to me and it's debilitating and I see threat everywhere and I catastrophize and I think about death and I see death. In every outcome, and they were to me the parts of PTSD that I needed to share and I needed to talk about, but they just wanted to talk about like specifics.

Yeah, of what they define as trauma. And for me, trauma in emergency services is so much bigger than that. It's so much broader. That, yeah, I feel like in the first few years of struggling to find medical help that actually addressed service trauma, um, instead of treating me like I'd witnessed a single incident, um, and that's what led me to their offices.

So, yeah, I, I stayed really unwell for the first, um, 2 years after being diagnosed and leaving, , the university job, struggling, easy to get a diagnosis of PTSD, but not easy to find people who will show you a path to recovery. , and I really struggled with the fact that I had to battle for my recovery.

I did it the insurer's way. I saw a GP, a psychologist and a psychiatrist and I still ended up in a mental health hospital. Two years later, , because no one was really understanding my trauma and no one was giving me , the right tools to get better. , I felt so yeah, the first two years were probably the hardest in fighting for, A way forward.

Rosie: It's hard. Like that. I feel like since then we have come a long way. So I was diagnosed in 2018 and discharged in 2019. Um, and even then, you know, the, the GP, the psych, the psychiatrist, like that's your trifecta really. Um, and I'm so lucky that my psychologist is a, um, First responder psychologist, and she gets it. So I was so lucky to fall, uh, into her lap, so to speak straight away. Cause she got it. Um, and I know that a lot of people struggle because they don't get the psychologist that understands those nuances of being a first responder. It's usually, like you said, you know, tell me what happened. Like it was one particular incident.

And with ours, it's just, it's certainly not that it's the years and years of accumulation of all the things that you see and have to do. Um, and yeah, so I can just really understand and resonate that that is. Such a, an issue for first responders when they go to seek help is that it's, it's not always just go and see these people because not everyone gets it, you know, not everyone's trained to understand what we do. So when you said that you got the treatment that you needed, what was involved with that? I know that you said that you went to, , the hospital.

Alana: Yeah, um, so the 1st step for me was actually finding, , so, uh, a therapist or a Counsellor that I'd seen who had been amazing previously and knew that what was happening to me was beyond her sort of remit had then, um, seen me go through 3 psychiatrists with and Terrible, terrible outcomes and finally connected me in with a psychiatrist who she knew and I couldn't believe my 1st meeting with him.

I think was over an hour and he sort of said, okay, listen to my story and said, all right, I already know. This is the plan. And the 1st thing he said to me was, . Westmead Hospital with UNSW had a program called the Traumatic Stress Clinic. , and it was a 12 week program designed for emergency service workers.

And I was like, Oh, wow, there's actually something that I can do that was designed for me. , and that was the first experience I had with a level of understanding. , and it was brilliant. I did 12 weeks of that. I feel like I gained so much. , but again, that ended and. Mental health deteriorated again.

Rosie: Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? Like when you're part of a program like that, because then you have to reintegrate back into your life. Like you go home and like your partner's there and your kids are there and they haven't done what you've just done. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was really hard.

Alana: And then it was. , I then probably started to develop, and I probably had had for some time, but they probably got worse after that, um, some pretty bad maladaptive coping strategies.

I was drinking, , just to quieten thoughts, to relax. , for me, it was to stop the adrenaline, um, to allow me just to sit still, , without ruminating thoughts and anxiety. , And yeah, probably had some then personal stresses at the time. , and. Yeah, it was not getting any better. And that's when the psychiatrist had sort of said, you know, an inpatient stay at St. John of God is probably needed at the point at this point. Um, and I remember saying to him, oh, sorry, I can't like 3 weeks away. My family won't let me go. They need me. You know, I'm the mother, I'm the wife. , so, you know, you can ask them, but there's no way they'll let me go. , and I remember talking to my family and them saying, like, when are you going to go?

Rosie: Yeah, please.

Alana: Yeah, yeah. And you don't see it. I don't think you see the impact and they knew that there needed to be some kind of circuit breaker in this. And so I went to hospital and again, another really pivotal moment for me. I mean, I was so resistant. Like I said, I tried to come up with that excuse.

And then it was, Oh, if I share a room, there's no way I'm going. And they're like, it's a shared room. And I'm like, well, then I want to pick what bed? No, you just get allocated. What's there? Like me trying to control,

Rosie: controlling everything.

Alana: Yeah. Where are all the risks? Where are the threats? , anyway, nothing worked and I ended up there and I always say the hardest thing you'll ever do is walk into a mental health hospital like that.

The 2nd, hardest thing is walking out. , it was the 1st time being in that hospital again, surrounded by people who got it. , I didn't have to explain it. , I felt like they all understood. They were supportive. There was no judgment. , the education sessions that I got in there again, it was like, they'd written these things about me, all of my behaviours, all of my symptoms.

They just made so much sense. And so doing that 3 week program, I honestly think then was the start of my recovery. Once I left, they then connected me in with their outpatient program. So I did dialectical behaviour therapy for over a year, one day a week for over a year. But for me, it adequately addressed the complex PTSD symptoms.

I was experiencing the negative sense of self, the emotional. Dysregulation and the relationship, , issues. , so again, it was sort of connecting me with support over a long period of time. , that then really sort of started to help me see, and their programs are done in a group setting where you're with people who might be in the last phase of their program.

And then people like me who are coming in right from the beginning. And for me, That was the first experience I had with HOPE. Oh, look how well these people are doing. They've been doing this program for 10 months and, you know, they're flourishing and, you know, they're learning and they're using these strategies. And I could finally see people in front of me who were moving beyond their injury. And I realized I needed that. I needed a level of hope that I was going to get some sense of me back, some sense of control. Um, And be able to do better than what I was doing at that point, which was just surviving. Yeah.

Rosie: It's I'm actually part of a program right now and we've just been away. Um, and it's the same sort of thing, totally different environment. It's all mindfulness based, but, , there was that group of people where there's some that are very early on in their journey. , and then there's some like me who have been through it for quite a few years and and some even beyond.

My seven years, you know, um, and for them to see how far you can come, even though it does can take years, , it is possible. Yeah. And you do feel stuck in the mud, like, and or stuck under your black cloud or however you want to put it. And it's hard to see that, you know, things can and will get better. And I guess that's, you know, why I've got this podcast because, you know, you get stuck in the mud, but then something happens, , and you start to come out of it again.

Yeah, and it's the most amazing thing, right?

Alana: Yes. And I feel like that comes from doing the work yourself. You know, you really need to 1, take control. Um, I love, um, the, the guys at resilient shield reference a lot. , the Stoics, Marcus Aurelius, who says you need to get active in your own rescue. Um, you know, that for me was that 1st point I needed to actively work on my own recovery and I needed to regain control.

, I felt so out of control in my disengagement from the service and what caused me to get there. , and the 2nd part was that I was holding on to so much anger and blame. . And that also the realization how unwell that was keeping me, um, you know, anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

I was so hell bent on, you know, this shouldn't have happened and I shouldn't be in this position and this isn't my fault. Like, I really started to create this victim narrative and. , another thing that I've learned recently that resonated so much with me is, um, Cartman's drama triangle. Um, and it's a suggestion that there's always, um, a victim, a perpetrator, and then a saviour and the realization that that's how we worked in our career.

You know, there's the victim, the offender, and then, you know, us. And then the realization that this Cartman's drama triangle about how that is the most dysfunctional type of relationship engagement you can have and that's what I was doing. I'd gone from being the saviour, the police officer, and then because I made myself a victim, I had to find a perpetrator and that became the organization.

And yeah, it was keeping me unwell and it was holding me in my past and it was, you know, talk therapy and treatment and challenging all of those thoughts that finally, that realization that hold on, like, I'm in control now, this is up to me, I can't blame anymore. Um, I've got to take responsibility and, and that's, I think, also, like, really key, , to being able to move forward.

Rosie: After all of that, and now you're, you know, starting on your, I guess, post traumatic growth, would you call it that? Like, I just love that term so much because I find it's really, , empowering actually, , to know that. To have that feeling like you're actually getting somewhere because it feels like you're just treading water and I actually felt I wasn't very good at treading water.

I was pretty shit at it. Sometimes I felt like I was drowning a little bit. Yes. Um, so to get that feeling like you're actually having a little bit of momentum. Yeah. You know, after leaving and all and treatment and, you know, it's years, isn't it really that you take care of yourself and be your own saviour because no one's coming to save you but yourself.

Yes. So yeah. How did that feel for you?

Alana: Yeah. Good. I think, you know, going through those things and having those realisation moments and realising that. You know, I had support so, you know, by the time I was sort of admitted to hospital and starting to engage in treatment. , Pia, who I mentioned, um, we'd gone to uni together, she'd gone and joined the Cops.

We never worked together. Um, but she was then diagnosed sort of 2 years into my diagnosis. , and so it was all of those things, you know, it was, Realizing I was in control, letting go of that victim mindset, , realising that there was hope that, you know, with the work, um, things could get better. And then having that, , support system, , of having Pia there again, that I could say these really obscure things that I was thinking, and there was no judgment, you know, coming back at me.

There was complete understanding. , and. You know, it was sort of the realisation, I think, for both of us that no one should have to fight this hard for recovery. You know, that why are we all battling so hard to connect in with good services that understand service trauma being surrounded by people that.

, you can start to see hope, , and, you know, we know that a part of this injury, and I explained that I went through it myself in that anger and embitterment side of, you know, why me and this isn't fair and things should change, , You know, knowing that that's definitely a part of the injury, moral injury and embitterment, you know, the research in that space and, and how it not only impacts your mental health, but it actually impedes your ability to, to recover from PTSD.

You know, we started to just learn so much in this space. And then it became about, well, how do we share this, you know, with other people? , how do we make. What was a really shitty experience for us better for someone else? , and that's really where we started this idea of, we need to start a charity that supports emergency service, mental health.

, and we wanted to focus on the key areas that we believed through our lived and living experience actually were the things that were going to help people recover. , and that became the underpinning philosophy that legal medical well being and. Financial were the aspects that we needed to help guide and support people with. , and it seems like, you know, when you've been in it for a little while Oh, that all makes sense. Yeah. , but for a lot of people in this space, the legal and medical side, , of this injury is a workplace injury. We are driven by, , an insurance system and regulations and legislation. Tell us what to do and tell us how to recover and us really holding the belief that this needs to be person centric focus.

This needs to be out about empowering individuals for them to know what's available for them to choose what their recovery should look like, even in medical terms. So, what treatment they're undertaking, whether they're taking medication or not needs to be a choice that's not forced on people. So the, the, the legal side that we consider is about navigating the workers compensation system and taking away, , the uncertainty, like so much is unknown.

It's foreign. They throw around section this and section that and WIDS and TPD. And you're like, what the hell? Like cops and emergency service workers love acronyms, but Jesus, this takes it to a whole lot. Oh, another level. , and it, it's fearful. You have no control. You're forced to keep reliving trauma and retelling your story and constantly proving that you're injured or how broken you are and how can you do that.

And then think about being better all of those aspects when you had to be covered and had to be openly spoken about, you know, we needed to build a collective group of people that was stronger together. , so that became sort of the drive behind the legal side of things. We create really simple resources.

, I'm 8 years. Probably I lose count of years now post diagnosis and I still struggle to, , read content, retain it. And then reproduce it. So for us, it was about simplistic resources to explain that process. , so the legal side of it, the medical side of it, engaging people with service and treatment providers who understood service and service trauma.

But again, another passion of ours is engaging people who are passionate about this space. We have found so many service and treatment providers. They're attending things like the frontline mental health conference that you've previously mentioned in your podcast. They're actively trying to learn more from the living and lived experience to better their practices.

, so we're really passionate about creating relationships with those service and treatment providers and sharing them with our, our members of emergency. , and then, , financial was a big thing for us. We felt like it was like a dirty word. Yeah. , in this space. People are so scared about what their financial future will look like, but everyone's too scared to talk about it because history suggests that there was, , you know, uh, things in place years and years ago.

, when police were retiring on huge pensions, they were also working, getting income, they were exploiting the system. There may have been a small group. So that then made this concern about finances like a really dirty topic that suggested, oh, well, if you're off sick, it's because you're after the money.

, And so again, we just wanted to bring out the shame and the stigma and say, of course, if, , A lawyer was told tomorrow they can't work. I'm sure the first thing they would say is, well, how am I financially going to survive? How am I going to look after my family? And that's a completely normal and understandable reaction.

So let's bring the financial side of things out to the forefront. What does your financial future look like with a work related injury? , and then the wellbeing side of it for us. , I believe that recovery also has two aspects, finding your purpose and your passion again. , and, and that probably sits alongside service.

I feel like we're all innately, a part of us is all exactly the same. Yeah, we go into this job with a natural drive and desire to serve or protect or help some aspects like that of the community, other people, besides ourselves. And I honestly think that in that sort of well being space. We have to give people the opportunity to, to rediscover that in a different context.

How can you find purpose again, outside of the uniform? How can you find identity again, outside of the uniform? How can you find passion? , which is something I feel like we. Often lack in services. We don't have that passion piece. Or you, you don't see things in the ser in services, , colorful. Um, they're black and white.

They're right or wrong. Yeah. . And we want people to rediscover that. The world is so much. Bigger and more nuanced and yeah, it, I think for us, it's a finding and encouraging people to reflect and, and having an opportunity to say, instead of having a narrative, like my career's ended, it can be, wow, I've got an opportunity to really think about who I am, who I want to be, and I've got a chance to start again.

Like. Line in the sand, I can be anything now and figuring out what brings you joy, where your priorities are. I think that shifts a lot. , yeah, and just helping people rework through those things in a more holistic way than maybe traditionally in this space. , the way it's looked at and that's from an insurance system that was designed for physical injury and that's not what we're experiencing mostly in this space anymore.

Rosie: Yeah, no, I agree. Like just what you girls are doing with Emerge & See has, I know it's helped me. , and I've gotten so much information from, you know, the Facebook page when I was a Facebook page and now app and the support that the community, , not just from the two of you, but the wider community again, of the people that have been, you know, through it a little bit, you know, that are just that little bit further along than what you are.

I think we even, everyone feels, you know, that sense that you need to help the next people that are coming through, , because you know how sticky and yuck the system is. Um, so the more information that you can give to people, the better for them, you know, you don't want them to have it as hard as what you did.

And I can see like, that's what you girls have really put so much passion and purpose and love. , I can see the love that you've put into it.

Alana: Yeah, and for us, we often say to people, you know, and we're so grateful we get such amazing feedback from our membership group, which is sort of over 2000 people now about the fact that, you know, they're grateful for what we offer them.

And I, my response immediately is we get as much from you as you get from us that this has given us our passion and our purpose back, you know, we get to serve. Without the uniform and for us, wow, the reward of doing this for our peers and being able to feel a sense of belonging again, you know, I really feel like I belong in this group of people.

And for us, it is. Positive and future focused whilst we acknowledge that there is hurt and there is pain and there is trauma that needs to be worked through and overcome at the end of the day, we want to create an environment that is non-judgmental, that is supportive, that's, um, showing, you know, like through your podcast, you know, we share that experience because people need to see people like you, you know, we have so many people that we've watched in the nearly 4 years.

We've been in existence now come from broken, unsure, , people who don't know what their future looks like, who are now one of our hub leaders. So we've got 32 hubs that connect our retired members across the state. They catch up for coffees or breathwork sessions or yoga. , rock climbing, camel riding.

I think we did it at Coffs Harbour once, you know, they're doing all of these things, but they are led by lived and living experience people who have come through and again, that's their opportunity to give back and to find. Some level of purpose or routine again, , we've watched people get jobs, , which has been amazing that have created businesses like you, , you know, they're now mortgage brokers and they're re, re identified themselves, , and they're, they're growing.

So not just there. They thrive, they're surviving, they're now thriving in this new world, , where they're in control. and for us, that's what we, like, started this for. I mean, we started it just to change the pain of one person, , but to know that we can also be a part of a community that helps people move forward and then become a valuable part of society that We all know that we have like these broken emergency service workers have so much value.

Like, I can't even begin to describe the, the integrity that they have, the drive, the passion, the purpose, , you know, and then. The intellectual side, like you're talking about some really smart people, , who have got so much value to add in a business sense, in a community sense, , and to see them come full circle, , for us is yeah, just amazing.

We love that we've created and we're just a part of it. You know, that's all Pia and I are. We're a part of Emerge & See um, and together, I feel like we can also make change for people who come after us. Um, yeah. So that's the hope that we can, we can achieve that into the future.

Rosie: Yeah. You're definitely achieving it right now. It will only get better. I'm sure. So in saying that, what is, , next for you guys? What are you looking at?

Alana: Oh, gosh, where do we start? We're really trying to build support. , and again, we always say that Emerge & See , changes because our members say. We need something else. This is something else that's missing from this from this area.

And so we're getting a lot of, , family members, partners that are saying, what about us? Yeah. , so we, within the app, . Yeah, I suppose there's so much. I mean, emergencies is so much bigger than Pia and I ever imagined it would be. , so the space for families at the moment, we're really trying to firstly educate partners and families around, like, what is service trauma, , but then also giving them a space for themselves.

, where they can, , bitch and moan and whinge and complain and they get support just for them. , just as the partner saying, I need someone to see me. , so we're working with a few partners at the moment to develop that. , more to ensure that there's adequate, , support and services for the family of emergency service workers.

But again, driven by their lived and living experience. I don't have that as a partner. So we're really relying on their voices, , to really drive the needs of partners and family and children of emergency service workers. And then for us, that app. component, , is a really big part of what we're trying to create, which is a holistic community.

So us as the emergency service workers are in there who are injured, , or transitioning out or retired from service, then we have the component where their family and partners can engage in the app with different resources and different support. And they don't , interact within the app. They're completely separate components.

Rosie: Amazing.

Alana: The third component is for emergency service workers who are still serving. So we're providing them proactive resources, , to help manage, understand their exposure to trauma, understand, , the nuances that they face as emergency service workers, the pressure that they face. They're The resource constraints, the staffing issues, how do we help them acknowledge that, but then give them culturally appropriate strategies to manage it.

So, within the app, there's resources, but we also provide education sessions for a lived and living experience perspective that's been conducted with over, , Probably 1300 New South Wales police and next week we'll finish 8 weeks with the ACT police. , so we're really, , prioritizing, , uh, engaging with people before they're broken. , we don't want people to seek help in crisis. We want them to manage. From the day they join and have that understanding, so they potentially never break or they never go to crisis because it's just a maintenance thing. Yeah, and that's what we hope in the serving space. And then the final space for us, which I think.

You know, isn't. given enough credit to the value that it holds, but we also have a space for service and treatment providers who work with emergency service workers. So they are hospitals, they are, , surfing teachers who do surf therapy, they're breathwork coaches, they're rehab providers, They're exercise physiologists, , private hospitals. , they're nurses, they're mental health nurses, they're psychologists, psychiatrists, they are within our app and have their own area that they don't engage so they can create a, a community and a network of providers that they know what else is available, that instead of saying as a psychologist, Oh, I do cognitive behaviour therapy, and that's your treatment for stop.

That psychologist is in our app. They see what else is available and they say, Oh, while we're doing cognitive therapy, have you thought about going and doing that breathwork session? That's being run down at your local surf club by a trauma informed, culturally aware service provider. And they found that out through our app.

, so we're trying to build their own network where they can build collaborative teams that. , a more holistic than their area of expertise that they can build their own network of service and treatment providers. , and they do have an opportunity in one area of our app to share that with our members to say, Hey guys, like I've got my books open.

I'm a psychologist. In Camden, you don't have to wait 6 months. , and so there is that opportunity as well to really, , show our members. There's so much support out there and we're going to tell you everything that's available to you and then you choose what's best for you. So, , yeah, I think I could talk for hours about everything that emergency hopes to achieve. , but they're just some of the things we're doing now and we want to continue working with.

Rosie: Yeah, I just the working with police while they're still serving, I feel is one of the most important. It's all important, of course, but, um, giving police the tools and this is something that I'm so passionate about, you know, working as a weapons and tactics instructor, you give and show the tools that you need to keep yourself physically safe.

While you do the job, but there's not a lot of talk about what's going to keep you, you know, mentally safe or give you some tools that you can use, when you need to, get your heart rate down a little bit in between jobs and, , you know, deal with your nervous system because you don't know.

And then all of a sudden you're so dysregulated, , that it's really, it takes a lot of time to get it back. .

Alana: Yeah, and this conversation to serving emergency service workers is foreign. Like, we learn it after we're broken. Yeah, let's go back and teach them these strategies before they break. And again, which is why I love our community, because we all tend to be passionate about what can we do for those still serving.

And for us, we have our little underpinning, , wording that we say fit for duty, fit for family, fit for self, fit for life, you know, that's what we want to keep people in the job. We want to keep families together. We want to keep people whole and happy forever, not just in service, not just out of service.

Through their whole life cycle. , so, yeah, we, we love that aspect of it. And yeah, we wish and we hope that we're able to be there. So we, we capture a whole generation of emergency service workers because we say to serving emergency service workers who. Say, oh, you know, organisational blame and our managers, uh, lack empathy and they don't remember what it's like to be on the truck, but we try and say to them, well, your bosses have been in the job and faced exactly what you faced, but now for a lot longer.

And they don't have the awareness of their own mental health vulnerabilities, let alone manage yours. Yeah, so for us, we really encourage them to, like you said, with weapons training, or it might be with their physical health, they don't rely on their bosses to manage their physical health. So don't rely on other people to manage your mental health.

This is something you're now aware of. And what do you need to keep yourself mentally healthy? So yeah, just the empowerment piece. It's so important. It's so important to empower people to manage themselves and to remain in control of what they do and the decisions they make every day.

Rosie: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. You are your own saviour. You have to look out for yourself.

Alana: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we hope that that. Yeah, that has benefit for people in their whole experience, whether they're still serving, whether they're going through the hardest time of their life in, in treatment and understanding their injury or whether they're ready to move forward.

You have to be in control in every aspect. A hundred percent.

Rosie: So the app is available, , Google play and App Store?

Alana: Yes. Yep. Yeah. . Yes. Yeah. Yes. I should know 'cause I've just been doing all the updates. Yes. Um, emerge the and Symbol Emerge and See Connect. , if you search that in any of those, , app stores, you'll find the app.

, we do ask a number of questions after download, but that's just to ensure, , that the people who are engaging in the app, um, are appropriately. Put within the app, , because just downloading it, you don't actually get internal access to the app. So we do go through a few scrutiny and security things.

, and then our website emerge and A and D emerge and see. org. au and all of our contact details, email, telephone numbers, they're all peer and I answering those. We will 1st point of contact. , so, you know, that. This is us on the other side. And you're not just getting a random, you know, person answering your call.

Rosie: Awesome. So what specific groups is the app for? Like obviously police and Fireys.

Alana: Yeah, so probably thank you for raising that because I think that we wanted to make sure is that all what we consider emergency service workers are represented when we're in hospital. There were so many government organisations that were workers that were in there who weren't represented in any level of support.

So we go beyond the traditional triple 0 emergency services. So typically police, fire, ambulance. We also support, . RFS and SES, both serving, , paid and volunteer. And then we also look after the AFP, , and ACT policing, which falls under the AFP and then, , ACT emergency service agencies, which is their, , ESA, ambulance, , fire and rescue, RFS and SES, , and then, , two areas that we also felt were forgotten were corrective services under department of community and justice and life saving, , which some people kind of balk at like surf lifesavers. , but when you actually consider what they do, , and the trauma that they're exposed to and, you know, another, a number of other issues, they also are equally deserved of a level of support, , in this space. So, yeah. We go beyond what people think of emergency services. And another really important piece for us is that there is no time frame.

So we found a lot of support organisations say, oh, we'll look after you 12 months post service. But then you're on your own. And for us, what about all the broken people that have been broken for 10 years? So for us, it's like no time frame. If you've been disengaged from any of those services for 10 years, and you still need support.

Emerge & See is there for you. We're not going to ever tell you. Oh, you don't belong to us anymore. You're not our problem anymore. Go. Take your problems elsewhere. That'll never be who Emerge & See is.

Rosie: That's amazing. And on behalf of everyone, like I said, myself, I have used your app and your Facebook page and the community. And it's been, , just really super helpful because sometimes you're very, very unsure and there's a lot of guilt and there is a lot of shame and it can be tough. So. I really want to thank you girls, because I know when I left, there was nothing and it's the same when you guys left as well. There was, there's nothing.

It was never spoken about. , it's all a very taboo subject and, you know, with the help of your app, then it brings it out and people can openly have conversations about recovering and growth and what's next for them instead of being stuck, you know, back there. So Thank you so much. And thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. ,

Alana: and I've really enjoyed it. Yeah.

Rosie: Our listeners are going to get so much out of this. So thank you so much.

Alana: Thanks Rosie. Thanks heaps.

OUTRO

  I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you think. Have the best week.