Hello and welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma. This week we have Matt Newlands from Frontline Mental Health here to talk about everything from his time in the South Australian Police Force, being arrested and charged on duty, his mental health, his family and what he is doing now with Frontline Mental Health, a company he co-founded and is absolutely going gangbusters.

Matt is a husband, father, and passionate mental health educator and counsellor. Following ten years-service as a frontline Police Officer for the South Australia Police, Matt endured significant mental distress, including personal experiences with suicide and a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress and depression. More importantly, Matt learnt first-hand the life-saving impacts of having good mates checking in and supporting him through the mental distress.Matt is a Co-Founder of Frontline Mental Health, providing customised mental health training and counselling services to Military, First Responder agencies, local government and private organisations around Australia.

Additionally, Matt holds a position on the SA Government Suicide Prevention Council, representing the First Responder community, is a volunteer Community Ambassador for RUOK?

In 2022 Matt was awarded the Lived Experience Worker Award by the Mental Health Coalition South Australia, and in 2024 was awarded the Suicide Prevention Australia State (SA) LIFE Award for the Priority Populations category.

I loved having this open and honest conversation with Matt, he was so generous with his story, I know you’re gonna love it too so let's get into it.

INTRO:

  Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter more fulfilling life whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life starts right here.  

Rosie:  Welcome to the podcast, Matt.

Matt: Thanks so much for coming. Awesome to be here, Rosie. Thanks for the invitation. .

Rosie: I, love to know people's backstories about, , you know, where they grew up and what drove them to join the service that they joined. So, , would you like to tell us a little bit about yours?

Matt: Yeah, sure. , so I grew up, I was actually born north of Adelaide, , but I grew up down south, down on Aldinga Beach, , moved down here when I was about five years old, , grew up down here with parents and two brothers, , mum and dad separated when, , I was, I think, about high school and, , stayed with mum, dad moved away, , but I think as far as, like, wanting to join the Cops, when I was four years old, And still out north, my dad's mate who was in the police and he came to my fourth birthday with the police car and we had a little party from what I can see in the photos anyway.

And there's one particular picture that I sort of have hung on to, which is Simon holding me next to the police car and he's in uniform, so he was clearly on shift. And apparently, I don't remember obviously because there was only four, but apparently that was the first time I said that I wanted to be a police officer when I'm older.

And that kind of stuck. So all through, , I guess the young years, it's pretty common. It's pretty common. But, , as I got to high school, , then I started to get pretty serious about it, contacted police recruiting. I think about year 10 was the first sort of contact I'd had with them just to make sure that things were sort of planned out the way that I wanted and joined the police when I was 20 years old.

Rosie: So did you structure your high school subjects around being able to join the police?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, I did. I say that loosely because, you know, joining the cops and not becoming an astronaut, you know, you don't need to get too carried away, but I was just mindful of what subjects and things might look okay.

And there was nothing that was sort of too surprising and the grades, you know, you're not having to get A pluses on stuff. That's not to diminish the intellect of police officers, but. , you know, they're looking for, I guess, more of the, the practical application, the life skill stuff, as opposed to the high level, high level intellect for general duties and things.

Rosie: So, , how old were you when you joined? Did you say 20?

Matt: I was 20. Yeah, I moved to New South Wales, , moved to Foster Tuncurry when I finished school, finished high school. I was up there for about 18 months, , worked in the hospitality industry and then, and then came back and that was, I guess, a bit of an, an attempt to get some of that life experience.

It was suggested that. joining the Police straight out of schools, probably not the best approach. , so, yeah, when I worked, hospitality gave me a little bit of an exposure just to working with people. And, , I guess even just seeing people under the influence of alcohol and drugs and a little bit of an exposure to that.

And then when I came back to Adelaide, I worked for a second hand dealer, actually, which was, which was interesting. And again, the intention there was I couldn't necessarily afford to get my security license. And, , this one particular organization was known for, , I guess crooks coming through and selling their stolen goods and stuff.

So I thought it might give me an opportunity to start working with, , I guess a demographic in the community that I hadn't Previously been exposed to. So I did that for a little bit and joined the Police Academy, March of 2006.

Rosie: How was the Academy for you?

Matt: I loved it. So obviously I'd wanted to be a police officer for all of all of my time up until then. Um, and didn't miss a day. Uh, I actually injured my knee, uh, nearing the end of my time at the police academy, just doing one of the training exercises and, , even still, , Yeah, I managed to still show up each day and just caught up on some of the physical activity, physical assessments that I needed to get done.

So, , just caught up on those during lunch breaks and things, but yeah, didn't miss a day at the academy, , loved and made some good friends, still friends today. Yeah, and it was about nine months, I think, in the end, just to show up nine months at the academy. But, um, it's not the same, obviously. It's, uh, but look, you got to start somewhere, don't you?

Yeah, it is. And , , I still have friends from the academy too. I think everyone, you know, makes those couple of good friends that you keep for life. , yeah. Yeah, it's such a good time. It's such a fun time too, where you're still learning and haven't put it quite into practice yet.

Rosie: Um, so from the Academy, which I assume, is it in Adelaide?

Matt: Yeah. So it's close to the beach, , in Adelaide. So Taperoo , Fort Largs is when I went through, it was still the older Academy that actually built a new one next door some years later. , and I think sold off a good part of the land that the old one was on just a housing, you know, usual development.

,So just in the city. And then once I graduated, I went to a Metropolitan Police Station just south of Adelaide, Sturt Police Station. I was there for about six months, worked with a couple of really good field tutors. , they were, yeah, switched on, engaged, keen to show me how to, I guess, how to do this job.

And, um, Different different styles, obviously, which is the good part about joining a good team is you get different types of policing style exposure. But I was, I think I was really fortunate to have some really good mentors.

Rosie: Makes a difference, doesn't it? Especially in those early days where you can sort of pick and choose little things that you like off your mentors and then sort of apply it to your own policing practice. So, so you're in, , Sturt Police Station.

Matt: Sturt Police Station for about six months. , there was a requirement for, , two, , Of our, , course to go to a country location, Port Augusta, which is about roughly three hours north of Adelaide. , they were looking for people to nominate. That's which is usually the case at the academy. They, they try to see if anybody wants to go up there, but at the end of the day, I think everyone sort of signs that bit of paper that says you'll, you'll go anywhere. The commissioner directs and in South Australia at the time, they only really had one chance to sort of send you somewhere and straight from the academy is that spot. So, , yeah, they, they put the call out. No one necessarily wanted to go there. There was a few people that said, you know, gave reasons why maybe they, they couldn't or shouldn't. , but in my mind, I was like, well, I kind of knew what I was getting myself into.

So if it's me, it's me. and it was, so it was me and another got our, , request or direction to head up to Port Augusta and I did two years up there. Yeah, that's not a terrible spot either. Nah, nah, I, yeah, I enjoyed the, , the place. I've never really been there. , when, like, it's, it's probably got its pros and cons depending on, , I guess who you ask.

But I went in there as, , obviously as a police officer and just went straight into the policing community. And, , yeah, and, and as, you know, I guess many experience in these service roles is that community is really tight. They, , you rock up on day one and it's, you know, you're welcome straight into the fold.

And you kind of get given a bit of the, the tour of the town and the places that you should go and the places that you shouldn't go and, you know, where people drink and eat food and all that sort of stuff. And, , Yeah, it was really good, really like good social connection in the town with, with amongst the service members.

So, yeah, I enjoyed my 2 years. I always knew that I wasn't going to stay there. I was always going to come back metropolitan because I had no real connection to the, to the town, but it was, , I think it was really good platform to, to learn certainly communication styles in policing and the importance of, of that. , yeah, country, I say country policing. It's, it's not, it's not as country as it sounds, but, , yeah, it's, it is, I think, a pretty useful tool for most to, to start with.

Rosie: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. , it's different demographics, isn't it? Like, even though it's, it's quite a populated area, but it is different to working in a city environment.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie: So I know that you, , quite openly have, , been diagnosed with PTSD. Did you want to talk about how that sort of came about for you and when you started to notice that things weren't quite right?

Matt: Yeah, um, yeah, it took a while for me to realise actually, , which I think is also pretty commonplace, but I guess I had.

Recognised that policing was the most important thing in my life at the time. , I would probably recognise that on reflection, though, there's, there's kind of an acceptance that the nature of the role, the demands of it, the sacrifices that you kind of have to make, , the challenge that comes with that is, , and this is something that I talk about now in the work that I do with, with service members is so much of, , my identity then became, , Being a police officer.

So when you, I guess, stuck so much in this role identity of, I am a police officer, as opposed to something that I do for work. And, , you know, it's not as clear cut as that, but, , it becomes quite, . It can become quite a risky place to be when things aren't going so well. So I did a good portion of my career thinking that I was in a good way.

And I believe that I was, , there was a couple of instances, which I think just accumulate and contribute to poor mental health over time and and those those jobs are always going to come up. But I just didn't necessarily have any, , Mental health literacy, I think, to recognise maybe the severity or the, the impact that they were, and therefore didn't necessarily put any strategies in place to, to cope with those.

, I had a, in 2013, uh, um, a suicide loss of a, of a friend and colleague. , he was off duty at the time. , there was a few of us that were on duty. , so I, I usually talk about this particular, , incident or this, this, , job that I went to. Because that's what my, , psychologist tells me is a contributing factor to, , the diagnosis, but there's also the part of me that recognises, um, yes, that was a very significant event, had had a really profound impact, , on me and my health, but there's also all the other accumulation of stuff as well, , over time.

,So in 2013, this, this particular incident had occurred and, um. I really struggled with it. I didn't necessarily want to acknowledge that I was really struggling because there was this feeling like my team or the people around me were impacted more so that they were closer to him. There were better friends and it wasn't really my place to to really be stepping in to say, hey, you know, this, this has impacted me as well.

And that was nobody necessarily gave me any reason to think that it was very much a self perception. , but I think again. Quite common for service members to be forever putting other people before themselves. So, over the course of about, , probably about sort of 18 months, just shy of from September 13th to the beginning of January or middle January 2015, , my mental health started to decline, , pretty significantly and I wasn't really, Tracking the downward spiral, , I was losing, , sleep a lot through the night was probably operating about 2 to 3 hours of broken sleep and I, , I was relying quite heavily on alcohol to, to get to sleep, , and then relying quite heavily on caffeine to stay awake through the day and just riding that, , common rollercoaster of looking for legal substances to, to operate on.

So. , and then also just, , I guess, living on the, , the physiological responses of policing. You know, there's something to be said about all those chemical changes that occur when you're in times of, , you know, anger, fear, frustration, all that type of stuff and using that as adrenaline to get through the day.

And I still really enjoyed, enjoyed policing, but I had recognised, I think, uh, on, also on reflection, I was starting to disconnect from the meaning and purpose of what it was that I was doing and why I was doing it. , it felt very much like a, , I don't know, I guess a bit of like a merry go round of today's victim is tomorrow's offender and vice versa.

And it seems like we're at the same house, it's doing the same thing and, uh, yeah, questioning the impact. , I think a lot of people that join service roles, , this is just my experience. I look, I looking to try to influence or impact their community in a positive way. And I think I just lost sight of that.

It didn't really feel like we were doing anything. , that was worthwhile. So by the beginning of, , 2015, , there was starting to be more of those like, uh, physical or external, , signs that were, were showing up in my life. I was recognised. I was having. What felt like unreasonable emotional responses to circumstances out outside of, of me.

And, , it just didn't really make sense. I was, I found myself, , on one particular occasion, I broke down in tears over something that was relatively minor. And so this is like, definitely out of character and something not quite right here. , but I was also, Saw that I was emotionally numb most of the time, , and which, which is a really useful tool when I was at work, , highly effective for, for a good, , police officer to not have any emotions that stops you from, you know, leaning into any of the grief or a fear or anger, , that might show up when these really challenging tasks, but at home.

, not conducive to having social or intimate relationships with my family and friends. So, , my daughter was 4 at the time. , there was a 1 particular incident that I often mentioned that I recall where she said that she was scared of me. And, , she went to my wife and, and I think that the challenge with it was I didn't.

I was never like loud or, , physically, , you know, uh, abusive at home, but more so one of the things that I like to talk to service members about is this conditioned, , physical behaviors that we're, we're quite become quite good at. There's, there's a way in which we can hold ourselves and the way in which we can talk and a tone of voice and instruction, , that people are well aware that there's a consequence, , if they don't comply with the direction they're being given.

And it doesn't have to contain any, any threats of violence. It's just, it's just, you know, the physical presence. , and I imagine that that's just what Grace saw in me at the time, , was, you know, I was, I was policing at home and had just become this robotic, , consequence is how I was describing myself.

, yeah. And that was a red flag. , that sent me to the doctor. The doctor referred me to a psychologist. He diagnosed me with severe to extreme post traumatic stress and depression. And, um, I told him that wasn't true. So I was like, because I'm a Senior Constable Police I would know better than the psychologist.

Foolish. Um, so I refused the diagnosis, , and just really on the grounds that Hey, the way I saw it, I've never been in the military. I've never been deployed to war. So that felt like it wasn't wasn't mine to go near. I didn't want to diminish what that, , what that diagnosis meant for a lot of people.

Uh, and when he said depression, I was like, you're talking about like, I don't feel anything. So my, my, my idea of depression was, I don't know, this stereotypical laying in bed, crying uncontrollably and not being able to do anything. And I know for some people that's a lot of people, that's a very real, , display of depression.

But for me, that wasn't the case. So, , yeah, I, I , , I kept it secret. I thought I can't tell anybody this because. , what's it going to do to my police career? I just been moved into a new new position. Um, I'll say promoted. It wasn't a rank promotion, but for me and my perception of the unit that I went to, it was a highly sought after area.

And I was fortunate to be selected for a role there. I worked with some, some really good police officers that were, again, in my opinion, were top of their game. And, . A lot of them still friends with now so and hold them in really high regard. So, it's fortunate to be to put into that position and felt there was 1 that there was something to prove.

I need to make sure that I was sort of fit the mold of what was expected there. And I was also scared of what would happen to my career if I said, Hey, I'm. I've got this little diagnosis thing now, which, , I think historically, and there's still evidence to say it happens now is can often just side line people and either find themselves on a desk or, or, you know, even worse being sort of pushed out the door.

So, I wasn't prepared for that to happen. I was 31 years old. I mapped out my whole policing career. I was going to be there forever until I retired. , so, yeah, I wasn't going to run the risk of, of putting this on a table and thought that if. If I just ignore it, it'll go away, pretty dumb, but, , you know, I've just reconciled the fact that I wasn't, I wasn't well at the time and making some foolish decisions.

Uh, and that was one of them.

Rosie:I totally. , The reason that you sought you know, to see someone is exactly the same reason that I did with my children, because I was completely overreacting. And what you say about having that presence, you know, policing your family. Um, Um, like works great in the street, but definitely not conducive to a happy home, like at all.

And yeah, my kids are about the same age as your daughter. Um, I had a four or six year old and I think, yeah, my daughter was like about three months old. So she was fine. She wasn't getting in trouble. But with the boys, I was like, what is going on? Like these poor kids just, you know, spilt some milk or something, you know, just ridiculous.

And the reaction was just too much. I was like, okay, this is not good. We're not doing good things here. Yeah, it's not, it's not healthy.

Matt: And it's hard to, it's hard to notice because I think, um, well in my case, because we spend so much time at work and there's this like, validation when at work that this behaviour is, is effective and it's getting results.

And then it's counted by maybe the handful of incidences to happen at home where it's not so effective and it's hard then to get the, like, that external validation of is this working? Is this not? Feedback is probably a better better word than validation. So it's just this constant. I found it constantly confusing.

I'm just trying to understand the left and right of arch of like, am I on here? Um, but I don't, the problem with it, this is a conversation I can have now and reflection because at the time I was, I was just in it and blinkers on and, , yeah, I didn't necessarily pick up where I had stopped trying to separate myself from, you know, the way I operated at work to the way I operated at home.

I actually remember, , early in my career for some years, if I would speak to my wife Allira on the phone, she would often be able to, to tell if I was either at the station versus maybe out on the street. Talking to people, , and just in the tone of my voice, just on the phone. So I think that, , there's a, a real strength in relying on people around us to give us that feedback.

And people are sometimes not too sure how to do that. And that's fair enough. , but yeah, it's a, it's a blurry line, , usually after a few years in service and. The priorities shift that there's all sorts of contributing factors, which it could be a really long podcast. If we started to explore them. I could talk about this all day, but the thing I did, like, I want 2 things with that.

With our children is because we see, you know, the worst of the worst on the street, we don't want our children to be like that as well. So I think, especially as police officers, and I know I've spoken, spoke to my psychologist about this. We seem to go that little bit over the top. But then when we have our, you know, um, mental health as well is not doing so well, it just adds another layer.

And now poor children, unfortunately, are the ones that sort of cop it a fair bit. And the other thing I wanted to say in response to, you know, relying on the people around us is that we're not very good sometimes at taking that feedback, like, Hey, maybe that was a bit over the top. I know that I personally would not have taken that very well, , when I was, you know, deep in the, in the depths of my PTSD, just before diagnosis, especially, , to say, what are you talking about?

You know, isn't this what everyone does? Yeah, absolutely. We'll push back even more. Yeah. And say like, Hey, you know, don't tell me what to do. So, yeah, it's so hard. I've spoken to a few people. , that I was around when I was, like, really unwell through the beginning of 2015, , through to, like, the end of 2015, when I, I got out of the police, but, , a few people have said, you know, I remember seeing you at the station, I was in the cells on one particular occasion, and, , one, one of my mates was after the fact, was probably about, I don't know, 12 months, 18 months, we were in a conversation, and he said, do you remember that arrest that you brought in, , when you came into this particular area, and it's like, yeah, and he goes, I could tell something was wrong.

Because you were just different. Because I just didn't, I just didn't know how to say anything and I don't, I don't hold any judgment or, or, , you know, any ill will towards anybody during that time because how do you like, it's, it's easy for us now in the cheap seats to go, Oh yeah, you should have told me like, really?

Like, how, how would, How do you tell someone how do you have those conversations if you're if you're not in like a real deep connection with them and you know that good friendship where they're in a position to to recognise and take that feedback it's such a a difficult delicate process that there's a lot of people I think that sit on the side lines that so desperately want to help and you know.

They just don't want to stuff it up either. So it's a, yeah, . It sounds much easier than what it actually is to do. So, yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it is hard, especially like you said, when you're not in a close relationship, friendship with a person to sort of bring it up.

Rosie: Yeah. So, from there, , when did you finally accept that PTSD and depression and what happened? ,

Matt: Yeah, uh, when did I, when did I accept it? I think I didn't actually accept it until probably, , January of 2016. So, , in August, it was end of July, , 2015, I was at, I was at, um, Uh, at work, I was involved in an incident, , where I had, , come into lawful possession of a, of a baseball bat.

, I ended up making quite a foolish decision to, to keep it. And one of the guys on the team went to anti corruption branch and, , flagged their concerns. So on the 7th of August, , 2015, uh, I was arrested by anti corruption branch at work, , for aggravated theft, , of the baseball bat. And that also triggered.

, you know, my immediate suspension. So that was the last day that I was at work. I think even then, , there was, I was really struggling with, with suicidality. I'd, I'd had a couple of, , one particular incident previous to the arrest where I had made the decision that I would take my life and that everybody would be better off because of it.

, But the other time that I was, I just need to get out of this environment so that I can end the harm that I'm causing to everybody around me. , and it was only for the influence of some really, , important people at the time and some really meaningful conversations that that kept me alive during that, that really difficult period.

, so a couple of good friends, my wife, , you know, my, my, I've got 2 brothers and my, my mom and my dad. And there's a number of really important relationships that helped keep me alive through through 2015 and it actually got to the think about New Year's Eve. And I remember I was outside, we had some family coming over for New Year's Eve celebrations.

The court stuff was all still pending. I was still on bail. I still had all these conditions that I wasn't allowed to talk to pretty much, you know, most of the people that I was close to in the police. , And I remember just, I was constantly getting caught in loops in my brain of, , things were, would escalate.

I'd planned that particular day. For some reason, I'd got it in my head that I was getting arrested again, that the police were going to come. And I recognised that I had put, um, uh, stuff by the front door that when the police arrived, I would. , I had thought through the process of making sure that they would shoot me on the front lawn.

Um, and it was this what actually broke that cycle. My daughter, as I said, was quite young. , and I was off work through that school holiday was that transition from kindy to reception and, , and I was off work looking after my daughter, which was 1 of the highlights of being off work was I had. This is the 1st time I'd really been able to spend some time getting to know her.

And I was actually quite scared of it to start with because I was scared of myself. And, , but it was an opportunity for for for Grace and I to to become a lot closer. But she had just came outside and asked me for some food. She wanted some lunch and it was enough for me to go like, you can't I can't keep doing this.

, so I wrote a letter, um, which. Started. I've still got it. And the letter starts with like, this is not a suicide letter because I can't do this. I'm not, I don't, I don't want to die. And in my experience, most, most people, , who have had thoughts of suicide and the common, , and so I want, I like to normalise the conversation around suicide, but most people don't want to die.

They just don't know what else to do. It's a, it's an overwhelm. , it's the, it's looking for options. The brain's looking for options and, , at a time where we feel like we're stuck and we've got nothing left or nowhere else to turn, it's, it, it feels like a, a sound option and then that scares a lot of people and, and that's okay.

But, , yeah, just trying to normalise some of that. So I wrote this letter and then I read the letter. The letter because I couldn't actually have the conversation with my family. I read, I read the letter to my dad and my mom, um, and my brothers and, and those key, really important relationships as I have to do something different here.

And I think that was probably if, you know, coming back in a long way to your question of when I accepted the diagnosis, I think it's fair to say that that was probably the 1st time that I said, but you know what, like, I accept that I'm not well, and my brain's not serving me the way that I want it to. Um, but there's.

That I'm going to look for ways of trying to change that, , and, and started this process of, if, if my environment had impacted my ways of thinking and feeling and behaving over a period of time so much, is it possible for if I alter the environment and I alter the input that maybe I could program it a different way and it's not to, you know, delete the hard drive of all this stuff from before, but it was really around, okay.

Understanding what my brain was trying to do and how it was, you know, ultimately all of the things that were showing up were protective measures for me. And, , you know, I have a diagnosis of post traumatic stress. I don't think that label really means much to me other than, , you know, helps me understand maybe why some things happen or the way that I think and feel at times.

But then it also means like some of those things are actually quite useful. , so I'm very careful around saying that it's. But that a diagnosis of those things is, is a bad thing. They are what they are. And, you know, everybody is impacted differently. And that's always the question for me is, you know, do these do these things, these behaviours, these thoughts impact you and how so?

Because sometimes they're useful. , I haven't quite worked out the value and the use of the nightmares yet, but, , I don't know, but you know, not everything has to have a silver lining either. So, um, yeah, so I, I just, that was an acceptance, I think. And then I was like, I'm going to just try to do, do things different and, , alter the trajectory of where my life was taking me.

Rosie: I can't even imagine how difficult that would have been to come in front of your family and read a letter like that to say, and like, hold your hand up and say, yeah, okay, things aren't going well for me and I need some help.

Matt: Like, yeah, I think it's, I think because there's so many things that are at play and this is, this is some of the biggest big challenges is service personnel.

Yeah. Uh, want to be of service and rarely are they going to be the ones that, , are going to be the recipient of service, regardless of, of, you know, the benefit that it might bring and it's, and it's nothing to do with ego. It's not them saying, I'm, you know, bigger, stronger, better. I think it's just genuinely this, this not wanting to feel as though we're a burden on others.

Um, you know, the counselling work that I do, this conversation comes up all the time. You know, I speak to first responders around the country that, , They are more comfortable having conversations and thoughts around taking their life than they are around saying that they're going to call in sick because, because they are so worried about the impact that it's going to have on their colleagues to leave them short staffed or short with resources that they would.

They would rather, , you know, continue to step into the arena and, you know, continue to shoulder the burden of of the mental fatigue and cognitive challenges that they're having then to, , maybe, you know, take some time away and get themselves well, so that they can come back and, and naturally the conversations think it will, , you know, if that's If that's a fear for you, that's a big concern for you.

Like, well, what's the outcome? Like, let's talk this through, you know, you might be available then for this shift, but what, what happens when you're, you know, when you, when you do properly just have to not come in anymore, you know, you're, you're no longer, or someone stands you down, you know, a boss says, I'm sorry, you're not.

You know, up to operational standard, then what happens? I mean, you're forced into this position. , or worse still, you get to a position where you do take your life, you know, so, and it's not about, um, it's not about guilt. It's about just trying to sit with those difficult conversations and talk through the possible outcomes.

Um, I think that from my point of view, , I'm really pro first responder agencies. We need good people to do this really difficult and challenging job. And I would never talk anybody out of, of, , doing it, you know, and I, I get keen for conversations when young people say they want to get in. , I think that there's a long way we've got to come and there's still a lot of work for us to do to help.

Better prepare those that are in first responder space and the military, um, to be ready for the challenges and the resources that are required before they become unwell. I think that we really need to a lot of the core focus now of my company is around trying to educate, you know, educates the best form of education is the best form of prevention.

We say it's the antidote to stigma, , stigmas, just, just uncertainty or a fear around, you know, this thing, you know, what does it do to our careers? And why don't we just start having those open and transparent conversations? And, , and then I also recognise that there's, there's an accountability measure on, , organisations to, to view these things differently.

Um, we hear good stories, but we still hear really difficult and challenging stories. And, , yeah, I'll never, , diminish the fact that there's still a lot of people out there that are putting their hand up and saying that they're struggling and they're not getting the support that they need. , or maybe they are being sort of shown the door in a, um, in different ways.

That's not helpful. It's not useful. , and it's a massive contributing factor to the recruitment and retention issues we've got around the country.

Rosie: Absolutely. There is massive issues with retention, especially. , I really, yeah, I completely agree. And something that I am very passionate about is having good people doing these jobs because that's what we need.

Like we need the people that want to help. Yeah. Um, and, and want to get into these roles, but we also need to support them in that and not only physically, but mentally and letting them know that, you know, these are risk factors to joining these occupations. And unfortunately, it's not being done enough.

And I think this is a beautiful segue into what you're doing now. , with your business, your company and, and who you're working for. So do you want to talk about that now? Cause I just think it's such important work and, , absolutely one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on, because I think it's great what you're doing.

Matt: Thank you. Um, yeah, I think it's, uh, find myself in this position now. And in fact, my, my wife said to me, , some time ago, now, do you think you do what you do now because of what happened or was it necessary for you to go through that so that you can do what we do now? Yes. And I think that's a combination of both of those things.

I'm very in a very fortunate position to have had good people around me that helped keep me alive during a time that I was really unwell, and also good people around me that encouraged me to, I guess, really sit with what I had experienced and gone through and recognised that lots of other people were going through similar stuff.

So the first couple of years out of the out of the police I got really focused on getting myself well. I was doing a Other jobs in business development and things because, you know, mortgages and they're important. Um, but in 2018, I got involved in a, uh, in a course that was led by, uh, Dr. Jon Lane is a lieutenant colonel.

Um, that he is a psychiatrist that had developed a program specifically for military and 1st responders around. , I guess functional skills, the day to day stuff that can tackle the way that we're showing up each day, , which was then seeing symptom reduction in, in post traumatic stress and depression and anger and suicidality and all this type of stuff.

So, , I got involved in that program as a participant, met John, and that was my 1st exposure to, um, this idea of working with military and 1st responders in a. , supportive way around mental health in particular and prompted a lot of these conversations then around education. So I worked in that space for for a few years.

I just kept saying yes to opportunities. , I, um, got involved with RUOK in 2019, , as an ambassador and I've, I've continued to volunteer with them and, and love my role with them. , I'm involved in their Are They Triple OK campaign. , and I have done a number of other things in the mental health space, qualified myself as a counsellor, and in 2013, so the beginning of last year, , was sort of prompted due to some, , I guess, work challenges and organisations working with, , prompted to consider what full time self employment would look like.

Um, I was doing like lots of things on the side anyway, , I only ever really worked part time jobs so that I could keep. Sort of just doing the work on the side. So this is an opportunity for, for me and a, and a, , a good friend to start a company, , and see if, see if there's appetite for the work that we were wanting to put out into the community.

And turns out there, there was, we, um, we picked up a, , a reasonably good. , contracts with the military first with the, , around the country, and that was that was really useful. And it gave us an opportunity to recognise that if we approach mental health as education, and we do it in a customised and authentic way that is built on, uh, personal lived experiences, and I know that there might be a few listeners that cringe when they hear those words, because it's becoming overused, but the way that we view lived experience is it's a strengths focused.

It is. Not the fact that someone has gone through something necessarily, it's, it's the fact that someone has gone through something and they've, they've spent the time to learn from, from what it is that was effective and what works and not just necessarily all just the traditional stuff of going to the doctor and seeking professional help.

Those things are really important, but what are all those other things? What are those day to day things that helped, , you know, focusing on things like sleep, hygiene, diet, exercise, , social connection, finding meaning and purpose in life. Outside of the service roles, looking at those other roles as well, and and by having this, , customised and relatable way of providing, I guess, education and facilitating conversations so that we can hold space for those difficult conversations and the hard questions that people have, , that there seems to be.

, a real interest in that. And, , the company started with this, this one particular project. Um, and with the, after, like I said, some, some other challenges, we went this, let's make this a thing. , so, yeah, frontline mental health, , was born in January of 23 and, , our first program was delivered in April of 23.

I guess now in, , what are we, almost April of 2024, as we approach our sort of first birthday of programs and, , we've expanded not just military, we work with first responder agencies, we, we work with, , local government, with private organisations uh, it turns out that there's Lots of people in the community that are, you know, just navigating really difficult work environments, but also really difficult personal environments, , and a lot of the conversations we're having, , translational across different sectors.

So, um, yeah, we now we work around the country where the team has grown. , we are really proud of a relationship that we have with the Aussie frontline community with, with Marley and Dan, , Marley started Aussie frontline, , a couple of years ago and Marley was, was one of those mates through 2015 that helped keep me alive and, and was also one of my biggest supporters to get into the mental health space and the work that Aussie frontline do around, um, Reducing stigma and raising awareness and the importance of social connection.

They sponsor counselling sessions that are external from organisations and we have a really strong relationship with with Aussie frontline myself and, um, my business partner Narelle, , who's also former police and former Air Force. She is also a registered counsellor, too. We've now got a counselling, all of people that is growing around the country, , and we, yeah, use our, use our experiences to, to support military and first responders, , in that space.

And, , yeah, at the moment, it just seems to be, , going from strength to strength, and that's a reflection of the community that we work with, , all of our, all of our. Relationships are that they're not one like we don't align ourselves with, , organisations that are looking for tick box exercises to to train staff.

We're not interested if you want to work with frontline mental health. You have to be in it for the right reasons. And, , and, uh, and building strong partnerships. Um, you know, we're here to support. People and teams over a period of time. Not just that. I said that once I've come in and, , you know, deliver a half day workshop.

We do all sorts and we're also responsive to community needs a lot of the clientele that we have now a lot of people in the partnerships we have their people are telling us the challenges that they're facing and if we have the skill set, we will develop something that is useful as an education piece and we roll that out.

Um, Uh, so that's I think A different approach. There's many organisations out there that are doing the off the shelf program, you know, one size fits all. And, and we know that that just doesn't work. So, um, yeah, we're, we're really focused on the way that we do things. , it's really, it's always. People, people first.

It's cliche as that sounds. We're constantly assessing the, , who is the, the person that we're trying to influence here and who is the end user. , we have to make sure that people are getting value from if they're going to give us some of their time. , if they're going to pay us money to come in and do some stuff that everyone is going to get value from it.

And most importantly. We're looking for impact on the people in the rooms that talking to. So, . Yes, we've got a range of programs that we, we deliver. We still have the customised approach if people want that. , and we've, uh, now just, , developed a eight week, , stress resilience and functioning course, , still with Lieutenant Colonel Jon Lane.

, he's done, I'll say co developed, he's done the heavy lift, he's the brains behind it. , we, we apply the, , I guess the legwork, , and, and train people in that course. , and so that's just now starting to. To roll out through April, and there's already been some significant interest in that program around the country.

Um, so yeah, look, it's, that's probably a really long answer to a short question, but there's lots of stuff that we're doing.

Rosie: Which is amazing. And I'm sure that has given you, you know, , a bit of passion and a lot of purpose and helps you on your own, you know, mental health journey to be able to get out there and help other people. You know, reduce the stigma, open up conversations that people might not otherwise have had, , and, and give them the opportunity maybe to talk to someone when they haven't been quite sure, you know, if, you know, what they're thinking about is a real thing, or, you know, they're just, you know, how it is you, are you making this up in your head? , and I just think it's so important and, and just amazing that you're able to go into people's workplaces and deliver those programs. , I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure they're really well received.

Matt: Yeah, so far they've been really good. And I think that they're the, they're the wins for us. , you know, we, we can drive really far, fly, you know, spend lots of time traveling and, and sometimes, you know, the fatigue, the family, like obviously my wife and my daughter, um, you know, they, they give up a lot still for me to, to do this work.

My, my wife, um, you know, certainly holds the fortune works full time as well as looking after. Grace is now 13. , so they give a lot to allow me to go out and to do this work. But, you know, some of those conversations, the ones that drive me and the team are the ones where we're giving people permission.

It's the conversation after we've done a training session or during a lunch break, because we like to sit with the guys and girls and talk to them about, you know, stuff, maybe even outside of the training. And some of those conversations, then where someone's maybe reached out and, , you know, booked a counselling session, , or they've just had that informal conversation, , before we've left as we're getting in the car, like, that's the stuff, that's the, the power, that's the, the messages that, , and, and Marley and Dan get it from Aussie frontline as well, the work that they've done, you know, when we're not anything special, there's lots of us like Rosie, you and your podcast and the work that you're doing, I know with programs that you're developing to, um, um, yeah.

It's, you're drawn to it because you know that it worked for you and the community are looking for things that will work for others. And we're now starting to see, , seeing a shift where people are now seeking out some of these conversations as a way of making sure they stay on top of their game. And I think that's such an important shift that I'm really excited for where we are leaning into the prevention space now.

People aren't waiting until they're unwell. They're like, what can I do? What information can you, can you have? And, you know, And when we think about counselling, I have had sessions where people have just said, I don't know that there's necessarily anything wrong. I just would like some information and it's been an hour 1 on 1 information session.

, you know, is that counselling? I don't know. Maybe we're going to, you know, co opt that, that word and steer it away from it feeling like it's a, , you know, I'm, I'm not well. And so I need counselling rather. This is an opportunity for information sharing because if we can get young. , or sort of junior, uh, first responders, military members, , you know, early in that stage of their career.

Understanding what the job might look like. And, uh, and that's not just the first responders. That's just people in general. , you know, have a vision for frontline mental health is really around making sure that mental health will be viewed as a priority. You know, people will see their mental health as a priority.

That's that's how vision starts. And, , I might not necessarily see it in my time, but hopefully. You know, I'm here for a long time, and I can, yeah, and Frontline can do its part to, to really help shape that, , that reframe where everybody of all walks of life see their mental health as a priority, , and they can have the, get the most out of life.

Rosie: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're definitely well on your way to achieving that. And, , it's, it's through organisations like yours, you know, and others that are doing this work in this space that it, the change will happen. , it might be slow, but I'm very positive that it will happen. And, , people taking a more of like a policing term, like a proactive approach instead of a reactive approach to their mental health, like how beautiful is that, that people are coming in.

Um, and just wanting to get information about it, like such a good thing. And then being able to share that with people that they know. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So it's that ripple effect, isn't it? The more people we have talking about it, we normalise the conversations and more people will feel okay and comfortable to seek help. Absolutely. So where can people find you, Matt?

Matt: Um, in a few different places. , LinkedIn is a spot you'll find me there. , I am on, um, Instagram. , and you can also head to www. frontlinemh.com.au, you get a bit of a, , a rundown of the different services we offer. And, , yeah, there's obviously the contact functions there, , and I'll also plug, , Aussie Frontline too.

Head to Instagram, there's an awesome community, Aussie Frontline, , they've got a website as well. Um, there's a couple of courses on there, online courses you can take, but their apparel range, uh, is a low key way of representing, , Who you are in the community. So, , yeah, I'll, um, I'll put all those links in the show notes as well.

So people can find it very easily. Cool.

Rosie: Perfect. Thanks. Thank you so much for your conversation today, Matt. It's, I know that, , it's going to be so helpful to a lot of people and, you know, just talking about your growth after. , being diagnosed, you know, it's not a life sentence. It's something that you can learn from and, and work out how you need to, you know, go through the rest of your life and function optimally. So thank you so much for joining me. I've really appreciated having you here.

Matt: Thank you very much for the opportunity.

OUTRO

  I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you think. Have the best week.