Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Before we get started, I'd like to acknowledge the Active Armed Defender Incident at the Bondi Westfield Shopping Centre on Saturday, the 13th of April, 2024. It's been just a few days since the critical incident that took the lives of six people and injured a further 12.

I personally have avoided watching any footage of the incident or reading details too deeply. Not out of disrespect, but because this type of attack in particular is one that I've struggled with since becoming a weapons and defensive tactics trainer. And one who delivered active armed offender training.

It is something that has kept me from going to shopping centres and crowded places for a very long time. And it's definitely the subject of many nightmares.

To now have this exact incident happen here in Australia is incredibly confronting. I want to convey my deepest sympathies to those that have lost their loved ones.

I wish all of those that have been injured a full recovery. To all of the first responders, frontline workers, and to the incredibly brave civilians who were involved and to inspector Scott, who ended the attacks. My thoughts are with you and your families. Please seek the support from the many agencies that are there to assist you, including Lifeline, whose number is 13 11 14.

I'll add other support agencies to the show notes as I do each and every week.

This week, my guest is James Maskey. I first met James at the Frontline Mental Health Conference on the Gold Coast earlier this year, and I knew that I had to get him on here. James is an incredible human, and you'll find out just in a minute the amazing things that he's done. James's dedication to the mental health and support of first responders and frontline workers is just first class, and I am thrilled to be able to have him on today.

Now for his official bio, James Maskey is a social change leader striving to enhance the mental, physical, and social wellbeing of the first responder community. James is a Director of Policy at Fortem Australia, the nation's leading support organisation for first responders and their families. As a thought leader in the first responder sector, James is deeply committed to driving systemic cultural change, higher value policy reform, and additional government support to ensure positive mental health and well being outcomes for first responders and their families across the country.

James is a retired frontline Queensland police officer with a service history including general duties and the Child Protection and Investigation Unit. In 2013, James was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and transitioned out of service in 2015. He was also formerly the National Engagement Manager of Beyond Blue's Police and Emergency Services Program.

James is an advocate for individual first responders and works tirelessly to increase help seeking behaviours. Remove barriers to accessing support and ultimately create mentally healthy workplaces within the first responder sector. For his ongoing mental health advocacy, James recently received the conversation leader award in 2023, IUOK, Barbara Hocking Memorial Awards, and was named one of pro bono Australia's impact 25 award recipients in 2020.

James is also an ultra endurance athlete having represented Australia on the world stage. In a 250 kilometer ultra marathon, as well as securing a joint small group world record on the concept to ski erg across a 24 hour period, James utilizes these events to platform the mental health impact of the first responder occupation and what supports are available for individual first responders and their families.

Let's get into today's episode.

 INTRO:

Welcome to Triumph Beyond Trauma, the podcast that explores journeys of resilience and hope. I'm Rosie Skene a yoga and breathwork teacher and founder of Tactical Yoga Australia. As a former soldier's wife, mum to three beautiful kids and a medically retired NSW police officer with PTSD, I understand the challenges of navigating mental health in the first responder and veteran community.

Join us for incredible stories from individuals who've confronted the depths of mental illness and discovered their path to happiness and purpose, as well as solo episodes and expert discussions. Together, we'll uncover the tools to help you navigate your journey toward a brighter future. Whether you're looking for helpful insights, practical tips, or just a friendly reminder that you're not alone, Triumph Beyond Trauma has got your back.

You matter, and your journey to a happier, more meaningful life starts right here.

 Rosie: Welcome to the podcast, James.

James: Thanks, Rosie. It's a pleasure to be here.

Rosie: I appreciate you coming on and spending some time with us today. I've read out your very impressive resume and I am so stoked to have you here. And I thought that we could start by just talking a little bit about how you come to join the Queensland Police Service and your time there.

James: Yeah, certainly. So it wasn't something that I always wanted to do. I know that many people that come to this life, you know, ever since they were a child wanting to be a police officer. That wasn't my story. I always wanted to be a barrister. I wanted to be. Somebody who would walk the courtroom floor and, you know, one of the great orators and I, I think I grew up watching a lot of UK television with my mum and she used to love those procedural crime sort of soap operas over in the UK and lawyers were always part of that.

So I think for me, that was, that was where I wanted to be. So I left high school, went to law school at uni on the Gold Coast. Realize very quickly that what you see on TV is not what you get in real life. And it's a lot of paperwork, a lot of administration, a lot of long hours, and it's nowhere near as glamorous as what it looks.

So I finished the degree and realized very quickly that this wasn't for me. So I was 21 at the time and relatively young and physically active and I thought how can I apply the law that I've just learned with my age and stage and sort of youthful exuberance and I thought you know what policing I'll give that a crack.

So I applied to the Queensland Police Service and got in when I was 21 years of age on the, I think it was The 10th of January 2010, so early, very early 2010, and spent six months at the academy there and then came out in, in August of 2010 as a fresh face first year constable of police. And sent to the Logan Police District in Southeast Queensland.

And it's just a quiet little town. Definitely doesn't feature on TV regularly. So the Gold Coast and Brisbane, they're both lovely places. And you drive through Logan to get to either of those two destinations. It's probably one of, if not the highest calls for service in terms of volume and the breadth and scope of what you're exposed to as a young officer in the Logan Police District is, it's very unique.

And I'm sure every state and territory has their own version of Logan, but Queensland, it's definitely Logan. It was a baptism by fire for me. I grew up on the Gold Coast. It was sort of sheltered and had a very vanilla childhood and upbringing. And to get exposure to domestic violence, armed robberies, murders, stabbings, property crime, stolen cars, that was a very regular occurrence.

Chasing a stolen car every second day. It was, it opened my eyes to a new, uh, a new world essentially. Very early on, I, Thought I adapted to, to that world pretty quickly and pretty well. And look, I did, you know, I was awarded and technology for my service very early on in my career. But at the same time, I think the cumulative impact of all of those critical incidents and also just how young I was to, you know, the age of 21.

I didn't have the life experience. All the support networks in place when things got a little dicey for me, the wheels got wobbly, but that was how I got into policing. And that was, I guess, my early days of, of wearing the blue suit.

Rosie: Yeah, I think 21 is young. I was 23 and I still. Feel like that. I was still a baby.

Definitely. Not very old and you don't have a lot of life experience.

James: No, it's not. No.

Rosie: So did you stay in general duties or did you move, move around a little bit?

James: So I stayed in general duties for a short time. I actually, I broke my tenure early and transferred across to the child protection and investigation unit, specialized unit, plainclothes, a unit investigating serious crime committed by juvenile offenders, but I was Equally, if not more importantly, also protecting young people against child abuse, sexual harm, physical harm, and neglect.

And that was the focus of the unit. I think once again, I probably glamorized the work of that unit through watching lots of Law and Order SVU when I was a teenager. So I thought that's where I wanted to be. So I did about probably three years in uniform, give or take, and then transferred directly across to CPIU in the Logan Police District.

and bounced around a few different sort of stations that had a CPI unit attached to them in the Logan Police District. All in all, I did six years worth of service. Not a, an incredibly long period of time, but when you're in Logan, that exposure to trauma, exposure to critical incidents, it's like you're adding four or five years for every one.

So yeah, so CPIU, the Child Protection Investigation Unit is where I finished my service. And I think Where, you know, in uniform and general duties, you're the Swiss army knife of policing. The focus was very narrowed and very niche in terms of the Child Protection Investigation Unit. And there were lots of really critical sort of investigations, really serious investigations that we undertook, you know, attempted murders of young Babies and sexual assaults that occurred to young people and out of respect for any, any listeners that may have had that experience in, in their history.

I won't go into levels of detail, but needless to say, that's a really high acuity. sort of place to work. And the exposure that you have is right at the critical end of protecting young people from harm. You know, one of the most vulnerable victims of crime and making sure that they are safe and protected.

And that was our focus in the Child Protection Investigation Unit. .

Rosie: It's such an important role in, in policing, not only in Queensland, but worldwide. And yeah, incredibly confronting work I can imagine too.

James: Definitely. Definitely.

Rosie: So thank you for that because, you know, you made a difference and it's important to acknowledge that.

James: Thank you, Rosie.

Rosie: From policing and, um, I want to get into a little bit of your mental health journey. When did you start to notice that things weren't quite right for you with your mental health and how did that look for you?

James: So I was give or take about three years in, it was about mid 2013 for me when I wouldn't say that I realized things weren't going well.

I think it was brought to my attention that things weren't going very well. So what I was experiencing at the time is it's a range of things that are quite common with the signs and symptoms of PTSD. So in the middle of the night, if I was lucky enough to get any sleep in the first place, I would. have nightmares and really vivid nightmares.

Typically speaking, they would be on the job nightmares. I'd be effecting an arrest and you know, I would sit bolt upright in bed, yelling at the top of my lungs in the middle of the bedroom, you know, get on the ground, armed police, armed police. And like, that's, that's, that's, At the age of 20, I'm going to say I was 23 or 24, give or take.

That's not a typical experience for somebody in their early twenties. When I would go to a cafe or a restaurant, I'd always be looking at people and I'd be looking for entry and exit points and, you know, sitting with my back to a wall. And I still do that now here in my home office in Brisbane. Like I know no harm is going to come to me right now, but.

Back is right up against a wall. And that is my common experience there. I had a lot of difficulty trusting people. I think policing was such a formative part of my early twenties. That's the way that I view the world at that time. It was, people couldn't be trusted. People had ulterior motives. There were some good people out there, but the majority of people had ulterior motives.

And that's the way that I looked at the world in that, in that time. And also I was frequently stressed. It would take a minor inconvenience for me to bubble over and to to be a 10 out of 10 in terms of stress. And then drinking, drinking quite a lot and, and to excess too. So whenever I would go out to the pub with friends, it wouldn't just be one or two beers.

It would be one, two, five, six, seven jugs of beer, you know, whatever I can manage. And I think for me, that was a way to. dull and numb and sort of try and take myself out of my own self, like to have an out of body experience essentially to not be present with the, the signs and symptoms of PTSD. All of those things, they're not really conducive to a Transparent and loving relationship.

So I was in a relationship at the time, and I'm really proud to say that we are now married, but in and around that time, it caused an implosion in our relationship and we did separate and it took a lot of love and a lot of trust and a lot of rebuilding to get to where we are now, which is a stronger and healthier.

and happier relationship, but it also caused me to realize all of these things came to a head with the separation of our relationship that I wasn't traveling well. I couldn't proactively see the signs and symptoms myself. It had to come to my point at about that time. Let's, let's call it mid 2013. From what I can recall, I went to my boss.

.

I said, and I was still in uniform, still in GDs at the time. I said, I'm not traveling well, I need some help. And he was looking out for me in the best way that he knew how at the time. He came up through the ranks in the eighties, nineties and two thousands, where when you put your hand up for support, it was a career limiting or career ending thing to do.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So his advice to me at that point in time was don't seek internal support. Do not put anything in writing to the service, go and see your GP. And he was a man that I really trusted and respected. And I still do to this day. And I, I don't, you know, harbor any sort of anger towards him.

So I did, I went external because he told me I couldn't trust internal supports, which is something that I'd really love to touch on later, because I think we've come a long way with first responder agencies in terms of their internal supports, but also the necessity of having internal and external community level supports.

So I went and saw my GP. Uh, she referred me to a psychologist on a mental health plan through Medicare. And I started cognitive behavior therapy with this psychologist in 2013. All the while I was still working as a JDA's officer and still immersing myself in critical incidents. And it wasn't even six months later that I received the appointment to the Child Protection Investigation Unit.

And when I was seeing the psychologist, he did provide me with a formal diagnosis of PTSD, but it was at a point where I could still work and manage. I didn't have to go down the workers compensation path. So when I went to the Child Protection Investigation Unit, went through the recruitment milestones there, I recall sitting a psychometric exam.

And one of the questions on, on the questionnaire was, are you seeing somebody for mental health support? And do you have a mental health diagnosis? I was like, there's no way that I'm telling you the truth here because you're not going to let me do the job that I want to do. So I recall circling the big N for no, I don't have a mental health diagnosis, even though I did, and I overtly lied on this, on this psychometric exam because I was worried.

Okay. through my own levels of personal stigma and perceived stigma across the organization, that there would be a handbrake on my career. So I lied and, and off I went and, uh, started working in the Child Protection Investigation Unit. I'm pleased to say though that I kept the psychology sessions ongoing.

I learned a lot. about my own PTSD journey, but then also started doing wider reading through some really great sort of peak bodies for PTSD and mental health here in Australia around what it is like to live with this diagnosis and what can help. So, Working in the Child Protection Investigation Unit undertaking some really, really impactful investigations, really important work, but work that doesn't come without a cost, a personal toll.

And for me, it really did come to a head in 2015. It's still in the unit. where I had to make a call. I knew that I loved this job. I knew that I wanted to be of service to the Queensland community. I knew that I wanted to provide a voice for those who don't have a voice, you know, young people who need that protection.

Yet I couldn't do it ongoing if I wanted to be in a loving, productive, healthy relationship. And if I wanted to be the best version of myself at that time, my, my partner, who's now my wife, she received a notification that she was successful in obtaining a PhD position at the university of Melbourne. And it was a sort of a crossroads moment for us.

And it was put on the table. We were freshly new to our relationship, relationship 2. 0 that I call it. And she was like, I'm going, this is an opportunity that I can't pass up. You can come with me. I really reflected on what I wanted my life to look like, and as much as I love that job, as much as I love policing, and I still do to this day, and I respect the people who do it, it was my time to leave.

So I handed in my badge, signed my, my paperwork, and in a very unceremoniously way, very subdued way, I just slipped out the back door. Packed up my things. And that was my last day in policing in August, 2015. Still seeking psychological care, but when you move to a new state, that all starts over again. You build your care networks from scratch.

So there was probably, let's call it when we got to Melbourne in 2015, about a three to six month period there where I didn't have support when I truly needed it, when a service member transitions out of service. especially when they're so young and it forms such a big part of their identity. You know, what other occupation when you go to a barbecue, do you get introduced as, Oh, I'm James, the builder, James, the engineer, James, the chef.

Like nobody is really intrigued by that. But they're fascinated by the world of policing, right? So you get introduced as James, the police officer. And then the next thing that comes out of somebody's mouth is, Oh, tell me about this job. Or tell me about the worst job you've ever been to, or, you know, like I've got a speeding fine.

How can I get out of that? Yeah. Can, can you just wave your magic wand, please? You got to know somebody, right. And to go from that to. Integrating back into the community and to at that stage not have a job and to have moved with no safety net to a new state. It was a really jarring experience. I didn't know what I could do outside of policing.

You know, I thought I could catch crooks, slap on a pair of handcuffs, drive a car and, you know, maybe type up a court brief with a couple of spelling mistakes. It's, it's such a wild journey. to understand what value you have to the community when you transition out of service. And that certainly was my experience.

So I went through a, when we got to Melbourne in late 2015, I went through what I call like a detox period from policing where I still wanted to be in, I still wanted to, to wear the the blue suit and to drive the car and to protect the community. So when we got to Melbourne, I put in an application to join the Victoria Police Force, but never actually hit submit, never got to that point.

I filled it out, went through the motions, did the exercise and never actually formally hit submit on the application. At the same time, there was a intelligence officer job going in AFP headquarters in Melbourne. It was in relation to phone surveillance. And I did apply for that. I did get shortlisted. I did interview and I did get the job offer.

I didn't accept the job offer. Once again, because I just knew that as much as I still love this world, I can't do this job. It's not right for me anymore. So there was, there was that aspect, but also I hadn't found the clinician that was right for me in Melbourne. I think, you know, a clinician is like a good hairdresser.

Like you, you, you got to go through a few, right. To get the one that vibes with you and you vibe with.

Rosie: Not only that too, like, sorry to interrupt you. A lot of people in our industries, policing and veterans. A lot of psychologists and psychiatrists don't understand the nuances of those jobs. So not only on a personal level, but the stuff that you're going to talk about, you need to know that they're going to at some level understand where you're coming from, right?

James: I agree. And I think first responding work, service work, it's unlike any other occupation and no other occupation will you go From one extreme to the other in five minutes flat and you know, I don't want to reveal too much once again because I don't want to be respectful of your listeners, but there's so many critical incidents and the breadth of critical incidents you go to, you know, no other industry has that.

And when you go to a psychologist for me, I definitely. Felt like I couldn't share everything because I was used to not sharing everything. You know, I was used to not sharing everything with my partner because I was worried about how that might impact her. But it's not just the trauma though. I think unless you find a psychologist who has supported This industry or this sector before the cultural issues very very strong Organizational culture pressures and what it means and what is expected of you to be a police officer and that itself requires a lot of unpacking in some good clinical therapy.

So, yeah, you're, you're 100 percent right. It took me a while to find somebody. In fact, I didn't find a clinician in Victoria that I, that I gelled with at all. So whilst living in Victoria, through telehealth, I actually made contact with a psychologist on the Sunshine Coast, and through interstate telehealth sessions, we set up a beautiful therapeutic relationship, and she's still my psychologist to this day, and I'm back here home in Brisbane, so I can go and meet with her if, if we decide to.

It's, it's a beautiful thing. But it did take a really long time and I think my experience is if you don't gel with a psychologist or a clinician of any, of any kind on the first try, don't give up because you will find somebody eventually who you connect with. And that's certainly my experience. So we got to Melbourne, started trying to plug into, to, to supports, to understand who I am outside of policing, tried a range of jobs.

I think this is really common for people. people who transition out of service. You don't know you're good at, you don't know what you want, you don't know what, you know, what is the right fit for you. So you've got to try a few different things on, right? So I initially, my working experience to where I left off with Child Protection Investigation Unit.

So I worked for Victoria's largest not for profit child welfare organisation. For kids in out of home care, Berry Street, Victoria is the name of the organization. And these were kids on custodial orders that couldn't live at home with their family and they're in government care and they lived in residential care.

And that was a great job. I was a team leader there, so I wasn't on the tools necessarily, but I was coordinating behind the scenes, the work of that program. I found even that was probably too close for me, too close to the fire and it was quite triggering. So I needed to leave that area of work and try something that just wasn't so serious.

Uh, I just needed something that was a bit of fun. In and around that time, I was undertaking some personal training sessions and trying to Get my body back and get my health back because, you know, binge drinking for me and binge eating and, and, you know, over caffeinated sort of sustenance was how I got through policing.

So I wanted to see what life was like on the other side of that. So. Fitter, stronger and decided, you know what, I'm going to try my hand at this personal trainer stuff. It seems like it could be a fun job and not as serious as looking after kids on custodial orders. So I became a PT and worked with a friend who was also a PT to open a business in Brunswick, Victoria called The Fit Project.

It's a fantastic boutique gym that provides small group training and one on one PT. And in and around the same time, I really took my level of fitness to a brand new sort of level and started training for some audacious goals, which, you know, I'll touch on in a moment, but once again, in terms of changing careers, I found that PT wasn't the right fit for me.

Yeah. So, the next, the next avenue to explore, there was a job opening at Beyond Blue. I thought, you know what, I have a mental health diagnosis, wouldn't it be amazing to work for a company that supports all Australians to achieve their best possible mental health? And the job opening was the National Engagement Manager of the Police and Emergency Services Program.

I was like, that, that's tailored for, for the sector that I used to work for. That's amazing. Knowing nothing about the program, knowing a little bit about Beyond Blue, I put forward an application and went through the interview process and landed the job. And what I learned very quickly is that Beyond Blue was undertaking a world first body of research into the mental health and wellbeing prevalence of police and emergency service members across the country.

Looking at things like trauma exposure, mental health diagnosis, suicidality, workers compensation, and then also cultural pressures. So I was able to join that team, support the adoption of the research, get it out there in the public, speak on, on stage at conferences. But importantly, it was a three phase research project and phase three of the project was translating all of that knowledge that beyond blue gained through the research and implementing it in.

First responder agencies across the nation. So traveling the country, sitting down with executive leaders of first responder agencies and going, here's what the research says. Let's have a look at what your internal practices are. And we engaged an external org site consulting organization to support us with this work.

So we'd travel with them and we'd sit down and unpack the services and programs provided by every first responder agency across the country. What, what areas could they stand to improve upon? And that was a really important thing for me because I was able to, in about 2019, go back to the Queensland Police Service, no longer an employee, and go through a comprehensive, collaborative workshop with executive leadership and also mental health leadership of the Queensland Police Service.

Unpack what happens to a police officer who is impacted by trauma, where are the blockers and the barriers, And what could support you to ensure that your people are as supported as possible. And that was a really healing moment for me, but also just a really. essential requirement to, to ensure that first responder agencies acknowledging that their people are injured, acknowledging that the workplace has a role in terms of the responsibility, and then looking at ways through informed research that they can support their people.

So that was a great organization to work for and a great body of research, uh, to oversee. And it was a time limited Commonwealth funded initiative at Beyond Blue. I knew that It would come to an end. The board was very clear that it wasn't going to be a long term program that was going to run forever.

So it, it hung around through the early stages of COVID. And then in 21, the program was closed. At the same time, I knew that this new organization called Fortem Australia was, was starting and the co founders of Fortem Australia worked at Soldier On, so providing support for the defence sector and veterans.

I watched this space really. Eagerly to watch the development of Fortem when I was at Beyond Blue and it started out being a wellbeing support service for national security and law enforcement personnel through a proceeds of crime grant. Very quickly Fortem scaled up off the back of the Black Summer bushfires of 2019 and 2020 and received further funding to scale up across the burn scar of eastern Australia and provide social connection and wellbeing activities, clinical services, and mental health literacy resources. Fortem then got a proceeds of crime grant to look at transition support. Transitioning medically retired police members out of service was the initial focus. And once all of those things came together, that's the time that I joined Fortem in 21.

And It's an absolute delight to be Fortem's Director of Policy, connecting the work of the organization to governments of all levels across the country and helping influence the development of national and state policy relating to supporting the mental health and well being and the resilience first responders across the nation.

I think what truly led me to join this organization was The focus on families. Too often, families, in my opinion, are forgotten about. 100%. Um, they are also the first ones to spot the signs and symptoms, and that was certainly the case in my experience, that my wife was the first one to see that things were not going well for me.

But also, it's not just that. Families are impacted by service work, through a concept known as spillover stress. So that vicarious exposure through their loved one's first responder role. You know, they're worried about their loved one at work. They're dealing with things like lone parenting while they're on shift work.

But also, you know, whether they know it or not, their loved one who's a first responder brings home. The job and families can start to mirror signs and symptoms of PTSD themselves through vicarious trauma. They can start to mirror the experiences that their loved one has. So I knew that family support was a unique thing and a necessary thing.

And it's the focus of Fortem. It's not just, you know, we're, we're open to families is, or inclusive of families, like the services of Fortem are designed specifically for the personnel and their family unit. And to me, that was a really remarkable thing. Working at Fortem is, it's a really important thing for me, just like working at Beyond Blue was, because.

I'm now proud every day to, to work at an organization that exists to provide the support that I wish was available to me. Unfortunately, I had to go through, I think it was about seven psychologists in the end to find one that I'd gel with, and all of Fortem Psych's have provided support to me.

frontline personnel, be it police, ambulance, fire, SES, or military personnel, they understand the cultural pressures of the trauma exposure. And that would have been really handy for me at that time, you know, so, um, and you know, we, we exist to provide the support because we know that there's high rates of burnout in the first responder sector.

We know there's high rates of compassion fatigue. We know there's high rates of mental health prevalence, much higher than the general population, much higher than the military. And that first responders and their families need a suite of services. Um, I call it like a buffet, right? So agencies, first responder agencies should provide mental health support services for their people.

It's a requirement, it's a responsibility. It's right that they do so. And they do, they provide a range of support services like EAP, chaplaincy. Some provide in house psychology services. Some contract outside. They've got a range of, you know, exercise physiologists and the full suite of services, right?

But there are high rates of stigma, and Beyond Belief's research certainly found that in accessing in house support services. So it's really important that first responders feel comfortable in accessing supports out in the community. And Fortem is definitely one of those support services. And there's a range of other organizations as well who provide that.

But, you know, I look at it like a sizzler buffet, right? You know, some of us would go to sizzler back in the day and go get the cheesy garlic bread toast. Some would go get a steak. Some would go get a salad bar or a dessert. It's the same for seeking support. There needs to be something that resonates with you so you can access it with low barriers and that you feel comfortable and your family feels comfortable.

And for some that's internal and for some that's external. And I think that's the secret source of Fortem is that we are external. We are trusted. We are confidential in terms of not sharing information back with the agency. And any information we do share back is de identified, just raw number data.

It's got nothing to do with who you are as a person. So. I'm really proud to work at this organization, and I'm really proud to see some of the shifts that we are observing in the first responder sector nationwide in terms of, you know, the support services that agencies provide their people. I wish that all of those services were available when I transitioned out.

The Queensland Police Service wasn't evolved then like it is now, and I really would have benefited from some well considered internal supports, but also external as well. Yeah.

Rosie: Yeah. And what you say about the sizzler buffet, you know, like I, I said, it's very similar thing. It's like the tactical options model, you know, for police, you've got your firearm and handcuffs and you can use them at different times. And I think exactly. Yeah. Health support should be exactly the same as that. You should be able to pick and choose different supports. To what you need at that time, it might change even in your journey, but you know, your psychological services and your GP and your psychiatrist, but then, you know, also use a service like Fortem Australia.

Or, come to me and do some yoga, you know, you can pick and choose and, and, and all of it together is, is really great. And it's like you said, it's I wish I had it too, and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, because it wasn't here when I got out. And, and I think that's why it's so important for us to get out and have a chat about these things.

So people know what is available to them, whether they're still in service or they're transitioning, or even when they're out and they've been out for a little while, services like Fortem Australia, I've used you guys, you know. I've used the services, it's a fantastic service and, and a lot more people need to know that it's there.

 AD: Big shout out to Tactical Yoga Australia, empowering first responders and veterans on their journey to enhance mental wellness through the transformative practices of breathwork, yoga, and mindfulness. Our mission is to guide individuals from burnout and anxiety to a state of calm, well rested happiness.

Life can often feel like a challenging rollercoaster, and we're here to help you navigate those ups and downs. Our commitment is to assist you in achieving self regulation and consistent, positive progress. Toward mental wellness for additional valuable resources and ongoing inspiration, visit tactical yoga, australia.com. Now back to the podcast.

 Rosie: Um, and James, you mentioned just a little bit ago during your mental health journey and recovery that you were working out quite a lot and you very briefly touched on that you had something in there that really helped you move through your PTSD.

James: Yeah, absolutely. So when I was in Melbourne undertaking personal training sessions, I really.

Found that my mental health improved probably coincided with the fact that, you know, I was seeking support and I was cutting out the booze because you can't train hung over or, and you've got to have a fairly decent diet to be able to function well physically. So there were improvements in that aspect as well, but I found that for me, I could, it sounds kind of cheesy, but I could meditate under a barbell.

You know, I could focus in on my breath. I could dial in my thoughts and I was really, really. Just being there and doing the movement. And for me, that was really profoundly healing. I loved running, but here's the catch. I could run, you know, a 5k or a 10 K and you know, anything that was under like an hour's worth of running, I was fine with over an hour.

I found that my mind started to drift. And that things started to come back into my mind, you know, the, the memories and thoughts and experiences of being a police officer, sort of like those flashbacks of experiences, possibly because I was, you know, really fatigued and exhausted at that hour mark. And that's when things started to come in.

So. I thought to myself, what can I do about that? How can I challenge that? How can I actually give myself a huge dose of exposure therapy, not prescribed by my psychologist, self prescribed. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to do an ultra marathon. Not a half, not a full, I'm just going to go the full hog and do an ultra.

And I thought, Ultras exist internationally. Cause I'd also love to travel. And I looked at the 150 kilometer multi stage multi day ultra marathon in Iceland. I was like, you know, a perfect, no idea how hard or how long you had to train for and how considered your program had to be, and I gave myself a year.

I was like, yeah, I'll be able to run from 10 K to two 50 K in a year. Surely. No problem. Naive, completely and utterly naive. We did get there in the end, but it was, it was a long process. So I signed up to this thing and I thought, you know what? It's such an audacious goal that I could probably use this as a vehicle to share my own mental health journey.

I created a website, I wrote a blog, started sharing sort of videos and things on my social media platforms and opened up for the first time publicly about what it was like to live with PTSD. And I thought I needed to raise awareness. It turns out there's a lot of awareness about the mental health impact of this, this occupation.

But what it actually did was for me, it connected me to others who had a similar experience and we were able to have conversations together and support each other. And it became a bit of a platform for, for support, which was great. And also the running enthusiasts were following my journey quite, quite closely.

And that was also really lovely too. And so what I did across that year training block was progressive overload. So every, every couple of weeks, I just run a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And the kilometers started to increase to the point where I could run, you know, a few marathons a week back to back.

It didn't come without injury. I spent more time on the table, uh, with my osteo and physio than I am proud to admit. Um, but we got to Iceland. I jumped on the plane, got to the country, And started day one of this thing. So it was a multi day six stage, so six day race and everything you need was on your back.

Clothes, water, food, all in a backpack. And the warmest it got, it was Iceland summer in August of 2018. The warmest it got was six degrees on the race. And the coldest it got was minus 15 running in a blizzard. I got there, I finished the thing. I did the two 50 and it was such an enormous. Feeling of personal accomplishment.

I never thought that I could do that. Especially somebody who was a mentally injured police officer, who carried a lot of baggage, who felt that I was a, I felt that I was a burden to others. So what. Possible chance would there be of me completing something audacious like that? That was a really healing moment for me in terms of post traumatic growth.

And then I turned my attention to another goal the following year and at the gym that the buddy of mine and I, we opened in Brunswick, started training with a group of three others on a piece of equipment called the Concept2 SkiErg, which is the same manufacturer who does the gym rollers. They do a, an upright indoor skiing machine.

And we decided that we were going to tackle a 24 hour ultra endurance record. The most distance ever skied before by a group of four people in and around the age of 30. And that was, that was a world record. And we trained for about six months. It was a horrible, horrible 24 hour period. And we split up the kilometers in intervals and we came away with a world record.

Uh, we held that world record for six months. We were beaten by a team of French outdoor skiers who were training indoors on their off season. So I have no issue handing over the title to, to the French. That's, they earned that one. And I think what, what that really did for me, once again, it was another profound moment of post traumatic growth.

I was able to say that I'm not limited by my diagnosis. It doesn't put me in a box. There are so many things that I can achieve and others can achieve in a similar position if they have the right supports in place and they're able to focus in on their wellbeing. The following year, I had a child, I had, my wife had a child.

I was just, support crew. So we have a beautiful three and a half year old daughter now and my focus has changed. Fitness is still part of my self care regime and what I do to stay well. It's no longer about traveling overseas and competing in ridiculous ultra marathons or trying to set a world record.

Now it's about what level of training is required to be the best dad that I can be. To be able to keep up with her because she runs, runs rings around me. And the, the focus has shifted and that took an adjustment, definitely. But I'm so glad that that focus has changed. She Has helped me become the best version of myself that I can be.

She's softened me a lot. No longer am I this hard sort of hardened, tough talking former copper. I'm now a big old sap and I'll cry at the drop of a hat. And, uh, that's a beautiful thing.

Rosie: Yeah, they do that. The kids.

James: Yeah, they do that. I agree.

Rosie: Congratulations, James. Like they are amazing personal achievements and you know, it is that sense of purpose.

Sometimes it doesn't have to be 250 kilometer ultra marathon, but for people listening, like just finding a little bit of purpose, something that you can do to keep your focus on is, is such a game changer in a mental health recovery and also becoming a dad. Like what a beautiful thing to focus on now, as well as, you know, yeah.

Yeah. Amazing work, both with beyond blue and Fortum. And I was wondering if we can touch back on beyond blue and just how amazing their research has been for first responders. Like I remember doing that survey way back when was it? Like 2015, it was in the, it was in the field in 2017 and 2018. Yeah, it must've been 2017 that I did it.

Cause I left shortly afterwards, but I remember doing it at work and just thinking, this is fantastic. No, one's asked these questions. Of me personally before. And that was right on the cusp of when I went off as well. So. I've read. I've read it a couple of times because my memory is terrible. and I keep, we keep referring back to the results of that study.

but I just think For an organization to take such a deep dive into the mental wellness of first responders is an incredible thing. So what's coming out of that now? What are we seeing from that first responder organizations?

James: Yeah, it's a, it's a great question and a very quick whistle stop history of the study.

It was a three phase research project. Phase one was a qualitative interview process, which Beyond Blue found a range of themes that emerged from interviews with first responders and their families, then moved to a world first survey, which captured the responses of 21, 014. We never could Never forget the 14, so 21, 014 first responders across the nation in terms of police, fire, ambulance, SES.

Uh, and then all of the findings from that survey, which included trauma exposure, mental health, prevalence, diagnosis, suicidality, workers, compensation, org pressures, stigma. They became a foundational piece of future work. It was a catalyst for change. It was the first time, not only in Australia, but.

across the globe that we had such a comprehensive data set to work from. And then phase three, as I mentioned previously, was a knowledge translation piece where we took all of the results of the survey. We took the confidential data sets of each agency. We employed an org site consulting firm. We traveled the country and helped implement change across internal support services.

So that's the backstory of the, of the study. Terms of what we're saying now, it's, it's. It's so great to see it referred to still to this day, still to this day in conferences and, you know, in other pieces of research. Another great piece of research is After the Fires, and it's the same academic team who used to be at University of Western Australia, they're now Curtin University, who undertook the survey on behalf of Beyond Blue.

And Professor David Lawrence is the head researcher of the study. And after the fires was a look back upon the mental health and well being impact of the Black Summer bushfires upon firefighting personnel across the nation. And where I tie in Beyond Blue's work to that is that still is referred to in this new piece of research.

And there's, there's national and international new research commissioned, and it's still referred to this Beyond Blue research. It's such a foundational piece. So in terms of what we're seeing after the fires research really found that an alarming rate of firefighters needed mental health support after their experiences in the Black Summer bushfires of 2020.

Um, An alarming amount did not receive the support services internally that they wish they, that they did, and it left a huge proportion of firefighters without the support necessary to look after their mental health and well being. Also, other presenting themes were things like, uh, the nature of being on the fire line.

In terms of working long hours, being there as long as you possibly can, holding the hose, putting out the fires, not an opportunity to recover, so not having that respite, that recovery opportunity and what that does in terms of mental health and well being. So that's a really foundational piece of research that looks at the mental health and well being of firefighters specifically, but it can be applied, I think, to other first responder agencies and personnel.

And there's, there's a range of other pieces of research that are emerging. You know, there's a Griffith University and Australian Institute of Police Management, dual piece of research on mental health leadership, which is great. And it's essentially not suggesting that leaders in first responder agencies should be clinicians.

More so it's suggesting that leaders in agencies should be good mental health managers, they should be. be able to spot the signs and symptoms of mental ill health in the workplace, and know how to support their people, either referring internally or externally. And all of these pieces of research really do inform the work of Fortem, and there's, you know, there's dozens of research papers and dozens of, you know, sort of good clinical governance and science that sits behind what we do and why we do it, and it informs our work.

But it's not the only thing that informs our work at Fortem. Really importantly, we're also informed by the needs and the views of the lived experience community and that of their families. So lived experience and carers, and it comes together through, I guess, the, the heart of lived experience and the head of science.

And it's a really beautiful combination that ensures that our social connection and wellbeing activities, our clinical services, our career management support, aid us through transition. Or retention and our mental health literacy resources are all governed by what good research, by what good science and by what good lived experience says.

And for me, circling back to Beyond Blue's days and Beyond Blue's work, I'm so proud to say this. Workplace mental health and well being is an evolving area in terms of research and best practice. There is no best practice. There is leading practice. It's still evolving. But to see the implementation of this study that was done, you know, we're in 2024 now, so six years ago, to where we are now, it's such a huge amount of growth in such a short period of time and something that the sector has desperately needed.

And I'm really proud to see it. Yeah. It's desperately needed. Yeah. It's, it's great. And something that just wasn't there before. So, you know, it's, it's, it was a wonderful study and, and I actually, every time I look at it, I always find something new and, and I think it was such a, a great piece for people to put, put their two cents in and, and let everyone know where it's lacking, you know?

Absolutely. I just, yeah, I think it was great. I think just to, to touch on that really quickly in terms of new findings, every time you read it, I agree. I worked at Beyond Blue. I know the research inside out. I still pick it up and go, Oh, that's right. There was this specific finding. I think for me, the one that shines through and Julia Gillard, the former chair of Beyond Blue has it in her opening sort of statement in the research paper.

The research found that exposure to trauma, absolutely that is damaging upon mental health and well being, but equally so is organisational pressures and cultures, and it's a classic example of culture eating strategy for breakfast. You can put all the supports in place in the world. You can address the mental health and well being impact of your people and partner with external organizations.

Absolutely. But if you don't have things in place to address the internal org issues, the internal culture issues, you're never going to truly look after the mental health and well being of your people. High rates of stigma, personal stigma, so first responders feeling like they're a burden to themselves and others and that they're not worthy of seeking support.

Org. Culture in terms of stigma is also a really big one. So it being a career limiting thing or career, anything to put your hand up for support and putting a bright light on those issues helps to change the narrative. And now what we're seeing is there's some agencies who are leading from the front, who, if you put your hand up for support, not only is it no longer a career limiting thing.

It's actually embraced and supported and with the right supports internally or externally, you can get back out on the road and we're seeing some amazing success stories. It's going to take a long time to action change, but it's happening. And I'm really excited to see it.

Rosie: Yeah, it's something that needs to happen.

I'm glad you brought it up because I know talking to my psychologist, actually, and that was the thing that tipped me over the edge. I'm sure of it was the organization and the culture within the organization around seeking help. And she said to me, you know, I don't know the number that she threw out there, maybe 80%, 90 percent is.

That's where people leave because they're just not getting the support. They need the stigma that's attached to it. And that's why we're seeing such high rates of attrition. I know in Police across the country is because the stigma that's attached to it, they'd prefer to leave.

James: Absolutely.

Rosie: Then stay and fight the battle. Internally, as well as then whatever mental health, uh, battles they're facing, you know, personally, so that, yeah, I could talk about that for a while. I won't.

James: So, so could, so could I, right? You're absolutely right. Um, people are leaving for a range of reasons. And one of them is internal cultures and internal management.

And we see that with Forum's career management program, we've rebranded our, our transition program to be career management, because, um, I'm really excited to share this. People come to us and go, I want to leave. And some of them do, and we support them into new employment opportunities or, uh, into retirement or life outside of service more broadly.

Absolutely. That's something we do. But we also have found that roughly about 20 percent of people who come through our career management program actually don't want to leave. They feel stuck. Yeah. They don't know where to turn, what to do. And the only alternative they can see is to resign. And what we're doing through a supported case management model is we're actually able to catch a substantial portion of people, sit down with them, unpack what the issue is, and then make contact with the agency with their permission and on their behalf to refer them back in.

And they're able to look at new career opportunities internally within the agency and shift the blocker. That was the thing that was causing them to resign in the first place. I think that is profoundly powerful. And it's something that we are very excited to see as an emerging theme and something that we'll continue to pursue. Absolutely.

Rosie: Because we need good people on the streets.

James: Absolutely. We do. I agree. We need them there.

Rosie: So if you can keep them there for a little bit longer.

James: We need people doing the job.

Rosie: Yeah, we do. We do. Fantastic. Like, that's amazing. I'm so happy to hear that. On the 12th of June, James, you've got Thank You First Responder Day, which is an initiative from Fortem. Can you tell us what's involved with that and a little bit of how that came about?

James: Yeah, certainly. So Thank You First Responder Day is a national day of action that's spearheaded by Fortem Australia that connects the first responder community and the community more broadly. Together through expressions of gratitude, the first responders, you and I, we know this firsthand, they were out there on the street every day, protecting and caring for the community, and that doesn't come without a personal cost.

And what we're finding is the community. Wants to share their gratitude. They want to say thank you to first responders for doing the vitally important work that we, that they do. So therefore Fortem is behind this day, linking first responders in the community together. And we do that through our website.

Thank you. First responder day. org. au or. com and people can jump on and share messages of thanks. We have a fundraising campaign where all funds raised go back into support services for first responders and their families. This year it is fit for duty. It's an. Eight week strength and conditioning program where the community can train like a first responder and experience what it's like to have the physical requirements to do the vital work they do.

Um, but also we have a range of, uh, activities and activations across the country on this day of action where Fortem coordinates, um, Opportunities for the public to come together with first responders through barbecues, through social connection activities, uh, through really big level, uh, engagements as well.

So, you know, thank you events at government house with every state's governor general, or the NRL is a big supporter of this day. And I know up in Townsville, the Cowboys game. Uh, in June, the NRL is going to get behind this as well. So it's a, it's a huge national day of action that's in its fifth year.

And we at Fortem, we're really proud to be the organization behind this really important day of action. And we do it not only because it's important. We do it because we also know there's a mental health benefit. That expressions of gratitude and feeling that groundswell of thanks from the community is linked to enhance mental health and well being for our frontline personnel.

Rosie: Yeah, beautiful. That's yeah, there's not enough thanks given sometimes and it can be a pretty thankless job. So what a great initiative by Fortem.

James: Very, it's a very lonely job. It can be Rosie. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie: Yeah, no one ever calls you to tell you they're having a great day at the police station, I'm telling you.

No, they don't. I just wanted to let you know you're having a good time today.

James: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I'm really excited to see the change that is necessary provided by organizations like Fortem.

Rosie: Yeah, fantastic. So James, to wrap up, do you have any advice that you'd like to give to anyone that's listening that might be having a tough time right now?

James: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first piece of advice is I want to share that it's okay to not be okay, and it's okay to need support. It doesn't make you weak or vulnerable or, you know, I, I looked at myself as damaged goods, and that's a horrible way to refer to yourself, right? Yeah. It's okay. In fact, It's a human experience to be impacted by the vitally important work that you do.

It's an expected consequence of this work. And that's okay. I think the second thing is that yes, there was a historical perpetuated stigma across the organization. So if you stuck your hand up for support, you would be cast aside. And that your career would end whilst there are pockets of that still to be true.

What I'm seeing out in the community and first responder agencies nationally is that's no longer the primary sort of solution to putting your hand up. You know, you're no longer cast aside in many first responder agencies. In fact, you're embraced, you're supported. And with that right level of support, you can be out on the road doing the work that you love.

But if that's not for you, and if that's not your journey, That's okay. It's a pretty jarring experience to transition out of service. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. It was for me and it was for the thousands of people who came through our transition and career management support service at Fortem, but with supported transition journeys, you can go on to do more than you ever thought.

And I think that's certainly true for me. I never thought that I would be here in this position. I was, I was a senior Connie, you know, I wasn't anywhere near the executive leadership of police. But now in my day to day, I'm sitting down and having conversations with commissioners and, you know, ministers and, and federal politicians, and that's completely changed to where I was a decade ago.

So transition doesn't have to be the end of the world. It can be for some, absolutely, but there is support out there. I think also one thing I would share is that families. And social connection is vitally important. We know that social connectedness is the linchpin for mental health and wellbeing. So finding opportunities early to come together as a family unit and whatever your family looks like, right?

It doesn't have to be the nuclear family, mum, dad, two kids. It can be whatever your chosen family is. Come together with that family through ways to, to be together. And we, we practice the five ways of wellbeing at Fortem. And you got to put me on the spot. I probably will miss one or two of them, but essentially it's being active, learning a new skill, giving back to the community.

You know, that skill mastery, that so that connection to others and that giving back essentially, and doing that with your loved ones. Or with your friends is so incredibly powerful for mental health and well being it builds networks of safety and support it reduces suicide risk and it ensures that should you need assistance that assistance is there and you have a rock solid foundation of support that would be my ultimate recommendation is.

Connect back into something you, you love with the people that you love or try something new. And on that, Rosie, actually, I'm really proud to say that I went back to tennis last night. It's something that I did in high school and something I did in uni and I completely dropped it when I became a copper and I haven't played.

Tennis for 15 years. And I went back and I was like, yeah, I'm going to smash this. I used to be like highly ranked on the gold guys, then complete, not a beginner hitting balls over the fence into the net, but being a beginner and having that beginner's mentality and connecting to something that I used to love with others who were complete strangers, It was a really beautiful thing last night and something that I'm planning to keep up.

I'm really excited to be back at tennis raising. I think if first responders fall in love with something that they used to love back in the day, for me, that's also been really profoundly positive. So far, it's only been day one, but I've got a big smile on my face when I talk about it. So there must be something in that, right?

Rosie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely doing something you love with the people that you love is, is such an amazing thing and so good for your mental health.

James: Yeah. Great.

Rosie: James, thank you so much for our conversation today. All the places that you've talked about, Beyond Blue, Fortum, and your own personal page, I'm going to link to in the show notes so people listening can get themselves some help if they need it or do a little bit of research.

And like I said, thank you so much for joining us. I know so many people are going to get so much out of it. So thank you.

James: Thank you, Rosie.

OUTRO:

  I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss any new ones. We release fresh content every Tuesday. And while you're there, take a moment to leave us a review. I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts. Don't forget to connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Tactical Yoga Australia and share this episode with your friends, family and workmates to spread inspiration.

Your support means the world. My name is Rosie Skene join me again next week for another empowering and positive episode of Triumph Beyond Trauma. Until then, be kind to your mind and trust in the magic of your consistent and positive efforts. Triumph Beyond your trauma is closer than you think. Have the best week.